5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 1
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`)
`APPLE INC., )
`)
`Petitioner, )
`) Case IPR2022-01299
` vs. ) Patent 7,761,127
`)
`MASIMO CORPORATION, )
`)
`Patent Owner. )
`_____________________________)
`
` Videotaped deposition of DR. BRIAN ANTHONY, taken
` remotely via Zoom in the above-captioned cause,
` before Rachel F. Gard, CSR, RPR, CRR, commencing
` at the hour of 10:30 a.m. Eastern on Friday,
` May 5, 2023.
`
`________________________________________________
`DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
`1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`(202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 1
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________________________
`)
`APPLE INC., )
`)
`Petitioner, )
`) Case IPR2022-01299
` vs. ) Patent 7,761,127
`)
`MASIMO CORPORATION, )
`)
`Patent Owner. )
`_____________________________)
`
` Videotaped deposition of DR. BRIAN ANTHONY, taken
` remotely via Zoom in the above-captioned cause,
` before Rachel F. Gard, CSR, RPR, CRR, commencing
` at the hour of 10:30 a.m. Eastern on Friday,
` May 5, 2023.
`
`________________________________________________
`DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
`1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`(202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 2
`
` APPEARANCES:
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` BY: NICHOLAS STEPHENS, ESQ.
` 3200 RBC Plaza
` 60 South Sixth Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` 202.783.5070
` nstephens@fr.com
`
` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` KNOBBE, MARTENS, OLSON & BEAR, LLP
` BY: TED M. CANNON, ESQ.
` 2040 Main Street
` Irvine, California 92614
` 949.760.0404
` ted.cannon@knobbe.com
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
` JACOB PETTYJOHN, Videographer
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 3
`
` I N D E X
` WITNESS PAGE
` DR. BRIAN ANTHONY
` Cross-Examination by Mr. Smith 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
` DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
`Number 1003 Declaration 9
`Number 1001 U.S. Patent 7,761,127 22
`Number 1004 Yamada patent 76
`Number 1005 Chadwick patent 89
`Number 2053 Design of Pulse Oximeters 188
` edited by J.G. Webster book
`Number 1007 Cheung patent 222
`Number 1008 Noguchi patent 239
`Number 1006 Leibowitz patent 251
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 4
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
` record. This is video No. 1 of the video-recorded
` deposition of Dr. Brian W. Anthony, Ph.D., in the
` matter of Apple Inc. v. Masimo Corporation in the
` United States Patent -- or in the United States
` Patent and Trademark Office before the Patent
` Trial and Appeal Board, Case IPR2022-01299, U.S.
` Patent 7,761,127.
` This deposition is being held remotely by
` Zoom videoconferencing on May 5, 2012. The time
` on the video screen is 10:32 a.m.
` My name is Jacob Pettyjohn, and I am the
` legal videographer from Digital Evidence Group.
` The court reporter is Rachel Gard, in association
` with Digital Evidence Group.
` All parties have stipulated to the witness
` being sworn in remotely.
` Counsel, will you please state your
` appearances and whom you represent, followed by
` the court reporter
` MR. CANNON: I'm Ted Cannon at Knobbe
` Martens Olson & Bear, and I represent Masimo.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 5
` MR. STEPHENS: This is Nicholas Stephens
` on behalf of petitioner Apple Inc. from the law
` firm of Fish & Richardson.
` (Witness sworn.)
` WHEREUPON:
` DR. BRIAN ANTHONY,
` called as a witness herein, having been first duly
` sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` CROSS-EXAMINATION
` BY MR. CANNON:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Anthony.
` A Good morning.
` Q Have you been deposed before?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q How many times?
` A I'd say approximately ten.
` Q And were you an expert witness in the
` prior cases in which you were deposed?
` A I'm sorry. The Internet dropped out for a
` second there. Will you repeat the question?
` Q Were you an expert witness in the prior
` cases in which you were deposed?
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 6
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` A Yes.
` Q And were they all patent cases?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you understand that your testimony
` today is under oath, just as if you were
` testifying in court?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And your testimony will be recorded in
` written form by a court reporter. Accordingly,
` all your answers need to be audible so they can be
` recorded.
` Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q And it's also important that we not talk
` over each other so the court reporter can record
` everything. Accordingly, will you wait for me to
` finish each question before beginning your answer?
` THE COURT REPORTER: Is Dr. Anthony
` frozen?
` MR. CANNON: He was for a little bit.
` A I'm here. Can you hear me?
` Q We can now. So I don't know if you
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 7
` answered the previous question, so I'll ask it
` again.
` Will you wait for me to ask each question
` before beginning your answer?
` A Sorry. I think we're having some
` Internet -- I do have a connection that says my
` Internet connection is unstable. Is it okay if I
` log out and log back in?
` Q That's fine with me, yeah.
` A Okay. Let me try that.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'll just take us off
` the record real quick. The time is 10:35 a.m.,
` and we're now off the record.
` (A short break was taken.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:36 a.m.,
` and we're back on the record.
` Q All right. So hopefully that will be
` better. I'll repeat the last question.
` It's important that we not talk over each
` other so the court reporter can record everything.
` Will you wait for me to finish each question
` before beginning your answer?
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 8
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` A Yes.
` Q And I will wait for your answer as well.
` If you don't understand a question, will
` you ask me to repeat or rephrase the question?
` A Yes.
` Q Your counsel may make objections for the
` record. Do you understand that you still need to
` answer my questions unless your counsel instructs
` you not to answer?
` A Yes.
` Q We'll periodically take breaks. If you
` need a break, please let me know. However, if
` there's a question pending, I would ask that you
` would answer the question first before asking for
` a break. Is that okay?
` A It's okay to take breaks. I'm just noting
` that you seem to be frozen now and your last
` question came through very choppy.
` Q Okay. Yeah, so I was just asking --
` THE WITNESS: I'm wondering -- I'm just
` wondering, Nick, do you want to turn off your
` video? Maybe it's the multiple videos. I'm not
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 9
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` sure.
` MR. STEPHENS: Ted, if that's okay with
` you, I'm okay doing that.
` MR. CANNON: That's fine.
` MR. STEPHENS: Okay. Yeah, I'll be here.
` I'll turn off my video and hopefully that helps.
` Q So if there is a question pending, I would
` ask that you answer the question before asking for
` a break. Is that okay?
` A That is fine.
` Q Is there any reason, such as illness or
` medications, that would interfere with your
` ability to give accurate and truthful testimony
` today?
` A No.
` (Exhibit Number 1003 for identification.)
` Q All right. Let's turn to Exhibit 1003.
` A And I'm just noting, I did print out clean
` copies of the exhibits. I find it far easier to
` look at the paper versions, just I can ...
` Q Yeah, that's great. Great.
` And before we get into this exhibit, do
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 10
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` you have anything in your room besides the
` computer, of course, and the clean copies of
` exhibits that you just mentioned?
` A No, that is all.
` Q Is there any person in the room with you?
` A No, there is not.
` Q All right. So we have in front of you
` Exhibit 1003, which has been previously marked in
` this case. Do you recognize this document?
` A Yes, this appears to be my declaration.
` Q Let's go to page 95 of the declaration.
` Is that your signature in the middle of this page
` after paragraph 194?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q And you signed the declaration on
` July 22nd, 2022; is that right?
` A That's correct.
` Q When did you start the analysis reflected
` in the declaration?
` A I'd say it would be approximately 3
` months, 4 months ahead of time. I'd have to look
` at my results to recall the exact time.
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 11
` Q And about how much time did you spend on
` your analysis from the time you started until you
` signed the declaration on July 22nd, 2022?
` A 40 hours or so.
` Q Now, feel free to review your declaration
` as much as you need for these questions. All the
` pages after your signature are a copy of your
` curriculum vitae; is that correct?
` A That is correct. I did not print that
` out.
` Q But it is a correct copy of your
` curriculum vitae?
` A Yes.
` Q Let's turn to paragraph 2 of your
` declaration, which is on page 5. And this
` paragraph refers to your B.S., M.S., and Ph.D.
` degrees in engineering. Are those degrees in a
` specific kind of engineering?
` A The degrees were conferred in mechanical
` engineering, but my course of study spanned
` electrical and electrical engineering designs.
` Q And today would you classify yourself as
`
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`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 12
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` an electrical engineer?
` A As I would say, I classify myself as a
` sort of electromechanical engineer, but with
` computer science -- I cease to call myself
` anything other than engineer at this point with a
` broad spectrum of many research focuses and many
` academic focuses.
` Q Okay. Have you previously served as an
` expert in any matter focused on heat transfer or
` temperature distribution in electronic devices?
` A I certainly served as an expert in design
` of devices, including issues associated with
` thermal management, electrical management, and
` optical management.
` Q And have any of your cases focused on
` issues that are specifically related to heat
` transfer?
` A None of the cases have exclusively focused
` on heat transfer.
` Q Have you taught any courses focused on
` heat transfer in electronic devices?
` A I taught classes in medical device design,
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 13
` including with heat transfer, optical design,
` medical device design that includes heat transfer
` and dynamics of thermal management, dynamics of
` electrical management.
` Q And in a typical course, what would be the
` percentage of time that would be spent on heat
` transfer issues?
` A Well, heat transfer, like any kind of
` energy transfer, one of the ways that we like to
` teach at MIT is using the dynamics of systems, so
` combining perspectives on transfer, on heat
` transfer, on electrical transfer. The underlying
` mathematics are often similar so it's -- in terms
` of percentage of time, it's all in fractionals.
` I'd like to look at the course syllabus to try to
` call out a percentage of time in that way.
` Q Have you published any papers focused on
` heat transfer in electronic devices?
` A Not exclusively that was focusing just on
` heat transfer in electronic devices, I have not
` published a paper in that so ...
` Q Have you made any presentations in
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 14
` academic conferences focused on heat transfer in
` electronic devices?
` A I'm sorry. Could you --
` Q Yes. Have you made any presentations at
` academic conferences focused in heat transfer in
` electronic devices?
` A I have not at a conference. I would
` highlight, though, the -- [audio distortion] --
` THE COURT REPORTER: This is Rachel. That
` was breaking up because of the connection.
` A -- and the design of optical rings for
` hand motion for high-intensity LED systems that
` included ten LEDs or LEDs around using those to
` monitor the -- [audio distortion].
` THE COURT REPORTER: Yeah, I'm not really
` getting anything from Dr. Anthony now, he's
` breaking up so bad.
` MR. STEPHENS: Do you want to go off the
` record for a moment?
` MR. CANNON: Yeah, let's do that.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:47 a.m.,
` and we're now off the record.
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 15
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` (A short break was taken.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 10:51 a.m.,
` and we're back on the record.
` Q Have you conducted laboratory work focused
` on heat transfer in electronic devices?
` A Yes, I have. And I would highlight the
` work that I've done commercially with our hand
` gesture system for wearing a ring to detect the
` orientation of the position of the ring. That was
` a system that involved 15 high-intensity modules.
` Each module had probably five high-density LEDs
` transmitting light with a single detector in the
` center and looking at the variable reception
` across those modules around the display to
` estimate where the person was pointing on the
` screen. Those were, in the end, sort of
` significant thermal design challenges that we had
` to address to get that system to work.
` Q So from about when to when did you work on
` that project?
` A That would have been approximately started
` in 1996 or so. And that was continued through
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 16
` '98, '99, more recently, all of the work that we
` do in wearable devices, laser ultrasound, also
` significant thermal management systems. Certainly
` thermal design supporting consideration for all
` the type of wearable and non-wearable devices that
` we design.
` Q Are you an inventor on any patents focused
` on heat transfer in electronic devices?
` A I am not.
` Q Have you supervised graduate students in
` theses focused on heat transfer in electronic
` devices?
` A Not exclusively in heat transfer in
` devices, but certainly on devices that thermal
` management was a component of the overall design.
` Q Okay. Do you understand that claim
` construction or interpreting the meaning of claims
` is part of an obviousness analysis?
` A Yes.
` Q As part of your obviousness analysis in
` this case, did you do a claim construction
` analysis of the claims of the '127 patent?
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 17
` A I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?
` Q Yes. As part of your obviousness analysis
` in this case, did you do a claim construction
` analysis of the claims of the '127 patent?
` MR. STEPHENS: Objection. Form.
` A I didn't find it necessary to construe any
` particular terms for forming my opinions.
` Q Let's go to paragraph 23 of your
` declaration.
` A Paragraph 23?
` Q Yes. That would be on page 18. So I
` think this confirms what you indicated before,
` that you didn't find it necessary to do a specific
` claim construction analysis; is that correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And so is there any -- besides this
` paragraph 23 that referred generally to claim
` construction, is there any claim construction
` analysis in other parts of your declaration?
` A No, there is not.
` Q Now, when you signed your declaration,
` were you aware of any disputes between Apple and
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 18
` Masimo in the International Trade Commission about
` the meaning of claim terms?
` A No, I was not.
` Q In your obviousness analysis, did you do
` any interpretation of the claim phrase "thermal
` mass"?
` A Again, I didn't find it necessary to
` construe any particular definition, just applied
` the ordinary and customary meanings in my
` analysis.
` Q And you didn't specify in your declaration
` in words what the ordinary and customary meaning
` of thermal mass is, correct?
` MR. STEPHENS: Object to form.
` A Again, I didn't find it necessary to
` construe a particular definition.
` Q And in doing your analysis, did you have
` an informal understanding in your mind as to what
` thermal mass means?
` A Again, I applied the ordinary and
` customary meaning as a person of ordinary skill in
` the art would understand it in reading the claims
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 19
`
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`
` in the context of the patent.
` Q And do you believe that for a mass to be a
` thermal mass as claimed, it needs to perform a
` thermal function?
` A Again, I didn't need to construe a
` particular definition. But a thermal mass, I
` described it as a thermal property, so a person
` skilled in the art would understand a thermal mass
` is serving some thermal function.
` Q And did you have any understanding as to
` what specific thermal function the thermal mass of
` the '127 patent performs?
` A So as I highlight on page 14, in
` paragraph 19, highlighting claim 1, thermal mass
` disposed proximal to the emitters and within the
` substrate so as to stabilize the bulk temperature
` for the emitters.
` Q And is it your opinion that the claims
` require the thermal mass to stabilize the bulk
` temperature for the emitters?
` A Well, I've highlighted there a thermal
` mass disposed proximal to the emitters within the
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 20
` substrate so as to stabilize a bulk temperature
` for the emitters and a temperature sensor
` thermally coupled to the thermal mass, wherein the
` temperature sensor provides a temperature sensor
` Output responsive to the bulk temperature so that
` the wavelengths are determinable as a function of
` the drive currents and the bulk temperature.
` Q Could we go to that paragraph 19 on
` page 14, and let's go down to the next page. So
` you're reading to claim 1, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And so for claim 1, claim 1 specifically
` states: The thermal mass disposed proximate to
` the emitters in the substrate so as to stabilize
` the bulk temperature for the emitters, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And outside of claim 1 that includes that
` language, stabilizable temperature, do you believe
` that the term thermal mass, which appears in other
` claims, requires stabilization of a bulk
` temperature in all of the claims?
` MR. STEPHENS: Objection. Form.
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 21
`
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` A Well, for example, in claim No. 7, a
` physiological sensor capable of emitting light
` into tissue and producing output signal usable to
` determine one or more physiological parameters of
` a patient, a physiological sensor comprising a
` thermal mass. That's one of the limitations in
` claim 7.
` Q Let's talk about claim 7. In claim 7
` where it says "a thermal mass," does that claim
` limitation, does the mass need to stabilize a bulk
` temperature in order to be a thermal mass?
` A Again, I didn't find the need to construe
` a particular definition of thermal mass. But
` reading this claim in its entirety, right, it says
` a thermal mass of a plurality of light emitting
` sources, including a substrate of the plurality of
` light-emitting sources, thermally coupled to the
` thermal mass, sources having a corresponding
` plurality of operating wavelengths, the thermal
` mass disposed within the substrate; temperature
` sensors thermally coupled to the thermal mass and
` capable of determining a bulk temperature for the
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 22
` thermal mass, the operating wavelength dependent
` on the bulk temperature, and the detector capable
` of detecting light emitted by the light-emitting
` sources after tissue attenuation, wherein the
` detector is capable of outputting a signal usable
` to determine one or more physiological parameters
` of a patient based upon the operating wavelength.
` Q Do you believe that a person of ordinary
` skill in the art would understand the term
` "thermal mass" without -- without any further
` definition of the term?
` A Again, that would presume a particular
` construction, but I didn't feel that there was a
` need to do so. But reading thermal mass in the
` context of the claims and the preamble in the
` patent, a person skilled in the art would
` understand how it was used.
` (Exhibit Number 1001 for identification.)
` Q Let's turn to Exhibit 1001, please.
` A 1001. 1001 is --
` Q Do you recognize this document?
` A Yes, this is the Al-Ali patent, or '127 in
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 23
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`
` shorthand.
` Q And this is the patent that's being
` challenged by Apple in this case, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Let's turn to column 10, near the bottom
` of the '127 patent, column 10. And actually,
` let's look at the top of column 11 as well. And
` at the very bottom of column 10, the last two
` words starts out, "The substrate," and then that
` sentence continues on to the next column and ends
` on "Meaningful." Do you see that sentence?
` A The sentence that starts: Substrate 1200
` is also configured with a relatively significant
` thermal mass, which stabilizes and normalizes the
` bulk temperature so that the thermistor
` measurement of the bulk temperature is meaningful?
` Q Correct. In view of that sentence, do you
` believe that the thermal mass of the '127 patent
` needs to stabilize and normalize a bulk
` temperature so that the thermistor management of
` bulk temperature is meaningful?
` A I believe you just asked if the sentence
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 24
` as written is what it says? I'm sorry. Please,
` could you reask the question?
` Q Yeah, so just to be clear, so this
` sentence is in the specification. My question is:
` Do you believe that the term "thermal mass" in the
` claims is a mass that needs to stabilize and
` normalize a bulk temperature so that the
` thermistor measurement of bulk temperature is
` meaningful?
` MR. STEPHENS: Objection. Form.
` Relevance.
` A So this is the description of different
` embodiments, and the figures of one embodiment,
` Figures 13 through 18, again, I would point to the
` claims and the entire body of the patent to
` highlight how thermal mass is used in the
` different embodiments.
` Q You understand that as an expert opining
` on obviousness, you need to have an understanding
` what the terms mean, correct?
` A Yes, as used in the context of the patent
` in its entirety.
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 25
` Q And in order to convince the board that
` your opinion is correct, you need to explain your
` view of what the claims mean, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And do you understand that if you don't
` give the board a definition of the word "thermal
` mass," that they're going to be left only with
` Masimo's view of what that means and perhaps their
` own view of what it means?
` MR. STEPHENS: Objection. Form. Scope.
` Relevance.
` A Again, as I highlighted, I didn't feel the
` need to construe a definition of thermal mass but
` interpret in its entirety as a person of ordinary
` skill in the art would read the claims and
` preamble and patent in its entirety.
` Q So I'm going to give you a chance to tell
` the board what you think thermal mass means. And
` you don't have to take it, but I'm letting you
` know that this is your chance to tell the board
` what you believe thermal mass means.
` What do you believe thermal mass means in
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 26
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`
` the context of the '127 patent?
` MR. STEPHENS: Again, same objection.
` Form, scope. Relevance.
` A Well, I guess I would highlight, for
` example, how I highlight that in combination,
` Yamada and Chadwick, goes -- what a thermal mass
` is and how it's used and it meets the limitations
` highlighted in the '127 patent.
` Q So Yamada -- I'm sorry. Continue.
` A For example, on page 36 in paragraph 52,
` Yamada teaches that a substrate supports LEDs that
` can be construed, constructed of three layers,
` including intermediate layer made of conductive
` material, such as copper, aluminum, gold, or
` conductive resins. It's alleged that PCB similar
` to Yamada constitutes a thermal mass in this
` claim. To the extent Yamada does not successfully
` teach a thermal mass, a POSITA, it would have been
` obvious for a POSITA to implement in combination
` with thermal mass, a thermal core, based on the
` teaching of Chadwick. Chadwick discloses a metal
` core of a circuit board, which includes multiple
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 27
` layers of synthetic plastic resin material on a
` sheet of metal. Give an example shown on Figure
` 11, which includes a metal sheet, in which layers
` of material have been applied to form a substrate
` to the mounting of electronic components. In the
` combination, the thermal core would include an
` amount of thermally conductive material, such that
` the heat transfer would be sufficient to sync heat
` from the LEDs on the surface of the substrate,
` thereby restricting temperature increases and
` heat-induced spectral shifts. And further go on,
` therefore, the combination of Yamada and Chadwick
` are rendering obvious a thermal mass.
` Q Is Yamada, is the disclosure of Yamada
` relevant to construing the claim term "thermal
` mass" in the context of the '127 patent?
` A I was highlighting how the combination of
` Yamada and Chadwick has indeed taught what was
` purported to be an invention in the '127 patent.
` I did not feel the need to construe a definition
` in my analysis of --
` Q So I'm just going to be clear, in the last
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 28
` answer about Yamada, you were not answering what
` does thermal mass mean in the context of the '127
` patent, correct?
` A Again, I didn't find it necessary to
` construe a definition. I was highlighting how the
` combination meets the limitations as suggested in
` the '127 patent.
` Q Have you reviewed the board's provisional
` construction of thermal mass?
` A I think I skimmed through that. I don't
` recall what it was.
` Q Let's go to paper 21, page 19. And at the
` very top on the first paragraph, the board says:
` We provisionally construe a thermal mass as a mass
` having resistance to temperature change on a scale
` relevant to estimating LED wavelengths.
` Is that the definition you -- that you
` looked at?
` A That looks familiar, yes.
` Q And do you understand that to be the
` board's provisional construction of thermal mass?
` A As that's written here, yes.
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2023
`
`202-232-0646
`
`MASIMO 2162
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2022-01299
`
`
`
`5/5/2023
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Dr. Brian Anthony
`
`Page 29
` Q Do you agree with the board's provisional
` construction of thermal mass?
` A Again, I didn't find it necessary to
` construe a definition, but I think under this
` definition, which is a reasonable one but probably
` not the only one, I think the limitations, the
` prior art also meets the limitations with this
` definition with this construction as well.
` Q And do you believe the construction is
` correct?
` A Again, I didn't feel the need to construe
` a definition. I think this was the one possible
` way a person skilled in the art could read it.
` Not exclusively -- again, I didn't feel the need
` to construe a particular definition in my
` analysis. But, you know, as a reasonable
` potential definition, I think the limitation is
` still met
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