·1· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`Page 1
`
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· ·----------------------------------------------------
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·APPLE INC.,
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · RFCYBER CORP.,
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`·8
`· · · · · · Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-01256
`·9· · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 11,018,724
`
`10· ·----------------------------------------------------
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·APPLE INC.,
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · RFCYBER CORP.,
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`
`16· · · · · Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-01239
`· · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 10,600,046
`17· ----------------------------------------------------
`
`18
`
`19· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`· · · · · · · · · ·ALFRED C. WEAVER, PH.D.
`20
`· · · · · · · TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER
`21
`· · · · · · · · · · · · AUGUST 7, 2023
`22
`
`23
`
`24· · (Starting time of the deposition:· 8:58 a.m. CST.)
`
`25
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 1
`
`
`
`Page 1
`
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· ·----------------------------------------------------
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·APPLE INC.,
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · RFCYBER CORP.,
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`·8
`· · · · · · Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-01256
`·9· · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 11,018,724
`
`10· ·----------------------------------------------------
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·APPLE INC.,
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·vs.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · RFCYBER CORP.,
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`
`16· · · · · Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-01239
`· · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 10,600,046
`17· ----------------------------------------------------
`
`18
`
`19· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`· · · · · · · · · ·ALFRED C. WEAVER, PH.D.
`20
`· · · · · · · TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER
`21
`· · · · · · · · · · · · AUGUST 7, 2023
`22
`
`23
`
`24· · (Starting time of the deposition:· 8:58 a.m. CST.)
`
`25
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 1
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
`
`Page 2
`
`·2· QUESTIONS BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3· ·MR. HART· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
`
`·4
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`
`·6
`
`·7· EXHIBIT· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·8· ·Exhibit 2002· ·.............................· ·19
`
`·9· ·Exhibit 1001· ·.............................· ·26
`
`10· ·Exhibit 2001· ·.............................· ·37
`
`11· ·Exhibit 1004· ·.............................· ·38
`
`12
`
`13· (The exhibits were retained by Mr. Hart.)
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 2
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
`·1· VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF ALFRED C. WEAVER,
`
`·2· PH.D., produced, sworn and examined on August 7,
`
`·3· 2023, between the hours of eight o'clock in the
`
`·4· forenoon and twelve o'clock noon of that day, with
`
`·5· all attendees via Zoom conference, with the Witness
`
`·6· physically located in Charlottesville, Virginia,
`
`·7· before William L. DeVries, a Certified Court
`
`·8· Reporter (MO) (AR) (KS), Certified Shorthand
`
`·9· Reporter (IL) (IA), licensed in [TN], Registered
`
`10· Diplomate Reporter, and a Certified Realtime
`
`11· Reporter, in certain causes now pending in the
`
`12· United States Patent and Trademark Office, Before
`
`13· the Patent Trial and Appeal Board, between APPLE
`
`14· INC., Petitioner, vs. RFCYBER CORP., Patent Owner;
`
`15· on behalf of the Petitioner.
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 3
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`Page 4
`
`·2· · · ·(All appearances via Zoom videoconference.)
`
`·3
`
`·4· · · · For the Petitioner:
`
`·5· · · · · · Mr. Paul R. Hart
`· · · · · · · Erise IP, P.A.
`·6· · · · · · 5299 DTC Boulevard, Suite 1340
`· · · · · · · Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
`·7· · · · · · (913) 777-5600
`· · · · · · · paul.hart@eriseip.com
`·8
`· · · · · · · Mr. Hunter Horton
`·9· · · · · · Erise IP, P.A.
`· · · · · · · 7015 College Boulevard, Suite 700
`10· · · · · · Overland Park, Kansas 66211
`· · · · · · · (913) 777-5600
`11· · · · · · hunter.horton@eriseIP.com
`
`12
`· · · · · For the Patent Owner:
`13
`· · · · · · · Mr. Richard M. Cowell
`14· · · · · · Fabricant LLP
`· · · · · · · 411 Theodore Fremd Avenue
`15· · · · · · Suite 206 South
`· · · · · · · Rye, New York 10580
`16· · · · · · (212) 257-5797
`· · · · · · · rcowell@fabricantllp.com
`17
`
`18· · · · Also Present:
`
`19· · · · · · Mr. Ryan Gray, Exhibit Technician
`· · · · · · · Lexitas Legal
`20
`
`21· Court Reporter:
`· · William L. DeVries, RDR/CRR
`22· Licensed and Certified in:
`· · IL, MO, AR, IA, KS, TN
`23· Lexitas Legal
`· · 711 North Eleventh Street
`24· St. Louis, Missouri 63101
`· · (314) 644-2191
`25· 1-800-280-3376
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 4
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by
`
`Page 5
`
`·2· and between counsel for the Petitioner and counsel
`
`·3· for the Patent Owner that this deposition may be
`
`·4· taken in shorthand by William L. DeVries, RDR/CRR, a
`
`·5· Certified Court Reporter and Certified Shorthand
`
`·6· Reporter, and afterwards transcribed into
`
`·7· typewriting; and the signature of the witness is
`
`·8· expressly reserved.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · *· · *· · *· · *· · *
`
`10· · · · · · · · ·ALFRED C. WEAVER, PH.D.,
`
`11· of lawful age, produced, sworn and examined on
`
`12· behalf of the Petitioner, deposes and says:
`
`13· · (Starting time of the deposition:· 8:58 a.m. CST.)
`
`14· · · · · · · ·COURT REPORTER:· Do you swear or affirm
`
`15· that the testimony you are about to give in this
`
`16· proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and
`
`17· nothing but the truth?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do.
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`20· QUESTIONS BY MR. HART:
`
`21· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Welcome this morning,
`
`22· Dr. Weaver.· Can you, just to get us started, state
`
`23· your full name for the record?
`
`24· · · · · A.· ·Yes.· Good morning, Mr. Hart.· I'm
`
`25· Alfred Charles Weaver.
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 5
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q.· ·Thanks very much.· And I understand
`
`Page 6
`
`·2· you've been deposed before; is that correct?
`
`·3· · · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·Approximately how many times have you
`
`·5· had your testimony taken?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· ·I can count at least 18 times.
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I'll keep the ground rules
`
`·8· short.· I think the number one rule today is to make
`
`·9· sure we create a clear record that the court
`
`10· reporter can capture.· To that end, only one of us
`
`11· can speak at a time.· I will do my best to not speak
`
`12· over you.· If at any point I start asking a
`
`13· follow-up question before you have finished your
`
`14· answer to the prior question, can you please stop me
`
`15· and let me know?
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·Will do.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Very good.· It's also my job to
`
`18· ask good, clear questions today.· If at any point I
`
`19· ask a question that you do not understand in part or
`
`20· in full, please let me know and I will attempt to
`
`21· rephrase it in a clearer manner.· Is that also
`
`22· understood?
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·Yes, understood.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is there any reason, medical or
`
`25· otherwise, that you might not be able to provide
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 6
`
`
`
`·1· full and truthful testimony today?
`
`·2· · · · · A.· ·No.
`
`Page 7
`
`·3· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Very good.· I'd like to
`
`·4· begin today by discussing your experience relevant
`
`·5· to the issues in this case.· The definition the
`
`·6· petitioner has proffered for a person of ordinary
`
`·7· skill in the art is someone who would have had at
`
`·8· least a bachelor's degree in computer engineering,
`
`·9· computer science, electrical engineering, or a
`
`10· related field with at least one year of experience
`
`11· in the field of mobile payment technology.
`
`12· Additional pertinent education might substitute for
`
`13· the requisite experience and vice versa.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·At a high level, can you help me
`
`15· understand where you have gained your experience
`
`16· with mobile payment technology that qualifies you to
`
`17· opine on the issues in this case?
`
`18· · · · · A.· ·Sure.· I have been teaching the
`
`19· department of computer science at the University of
`
`20· Virginia since 1977, and I have been teaching
`
`21· electronic commerce since 1995.· Over that period of
`
`22· time from 1995 to 2020 I have revised at least
`
`23· annually my electronic commerce course and its
`
`24· content.
`
`25· · · · · · · ·I have personally studied electronic
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 7
`
`
`
`·1· commerce and payment systems and computer security
`
`Page 8
`
`·2· as pertinent to payment systems.· I have
`
`·3· incorporated into my course five 75-minute lectures
`
`·4· on payment systems, how they operate, using Apple
`
`·5· Pay as an example, and getting into the crucial
`
`·6· elements such as the security element portion of
`
`·7· Apple Pay.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·In my own personal life outside of the
`
`·9· university I've created five companies, and one of
`
`10· those -- the most successful of those was a company
`
`11· called Reliacast that was used to provide reliable
`
`12· and secure video streaming services to companies.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·The intended target for that product
`
`14· was streaming multimedia.· And finally, in the year
`
`15· 2006, I and my partners were able to sell that
`
`16· company to Comcast.· As part of all of that, we
`
`17· studied and implemented payment systems.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·In my course I created as a course
`
`19· project the challenge for student teams of three to
`
`20· decide on a product or service that they could sell,
`
`21· and then to, from scratch, create a website that
`
`22· would support that -- that effort.· And incorporated
`
`23· in that course project would be the creation of
`
`24· electronic catalogues and inventory management and
`
`25· payment systems.· So that's where I gained my
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 8
`
`
`
`·1· experience.
`
`Page 9
`
`·2· · · · · Q.· ·Let's -- let's start with your
`
`·3· electronic commerce teaching, your coursework and
`
`·4· your electronic commerce work as a professor.· What
`
`·5· is electronic commerce?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· ·You are frozen.· Okay.· You're back.
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you hear -- I guess it
`
`·8· doesn't matter if you can see me, but can you hear
`
`·9· me okay?
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·I can.
`
`11· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Very good.· My question was
`
`12· just what is electronic commerce as it pertains to
`
`13· your role as a professor?
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·Electronic commerce is the development
`
`15· of web applications that can support the selling of
`
`16· products or services.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·Do you cover smart cards in your
`
`18· electronic commerce courses?
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What level of detail -- at what
`
`21· level of detail do you teach smart card technology
`
`22· in your electronic commerce courses?
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·I go down to the level of the framework
`
`24· of the computer and most essentially the creation
`
`25· and management of the secure element on the smart
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 9
`
`
`
`·1· card like Apple Pay, and I discuss in some detail
`
`Page 10
`
`·2· each of the elements that one would find within the
`
`·3· secure elements.· So a secure operating system,
`
`·4· secure memory, secure applications, cryptography,
`
`·5· communications, and related topics.
`
`·6· · · · · Q.· ·Now, before I got into this I probably
`
`·7· should have framed this conversation a little more
`
`·8· precisely.· The petitioner has proposed a March 4,
`
`·9· 2012 priority date for the '724 proceeding.· That's
`
`10· IPR2022-01256 involving the '724 patent.· So if I
`
`11· re-ask that last question because I believe you keep
`
`12· referencing Apple Pay, I believe Apple Pay postdates
`
`13· that 2012 priority date.· Prior to March 4, 2012,
`
`14· did you cover smart cards in your electronic
`
`15· commerce courses?
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`17· · · · · A.· ·No, that was a more recent addition.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· At what point in time
`
`19· did you begin covering smart card technology in your
`
`20· electronic commerce courses?
`
`21· · · · · A.· ·I don't have a date in mind, but it
`
`22· would be shortly after the introduction of Apple Pay
`
`23· technology.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Have you ever covered the
`
`25· subject matter of downloading payment applications
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 10
`
`
`
`·1· to a smart card-equipped mobile device in your
`
`Page 11
`
`·2· electronic commerce courses?
`
`·3· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And would any of that subject
`
`·5· matter have been introduced in your courses prior to
`
`·6· March 4, 2012?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`·8· · · · · A.· ·I don't think so.· That -- that was
`
`·9· more recently added.
`
`10· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· When you added smart
`
`11· card technology to your electronic commerce courses,
`
`12· did you cover any technology that existed prior to
`
`13· March 4, 2012?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Or -- or was all the
`
`16· subject matter pertinent to smart cards as of Apple
`
`17· Pay and after?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·The addition of smart card technology
`
`20· to my electronic commerce course would have been
`
`21· alluded to as that technology evolved, but in terms
`
`22· of my ability to drill down into the operational
`
`23· details of the secure element and its associated
`
`24· hardware and software, those details were coincident
`
`25· with the introduction of Apple Pay.
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 11
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· In your electronic
`
`·2· commerce courses or otherwise in your role as a
`
`·3· professor, have you ever familiarized yourself with
`
`·4· memory management in a smart card-equipped mobile
`
`Page 12
`
`·5· device?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you familiarized yourself
`
`·8· with that subject matter as of or before March 2012?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· What was your experience
`
`12· with memory management in a smart card-equipped
`
`13· mobile device as of March 2012?
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·The memory management that is
`
`15· exemplified by a smart card is similar to that in a
`
`16· modern operating system, but then buttressed by the
`
`17· addition of communications protocols, security
`
`18· protocols, all of which were -- are associated with
`
`19· memory management with authentication, with
`
`20· authorization.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·So the -- the topics of memory
`
`22· management in a smart card are similar to those of a
`
`23· normal operating system.· As I said, they are then
`
`24· enhanced by the addition of authentication
`
`25· authorization and security protocols, and all of
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 12
`
`
`
`·1· those topics individually were known well prior to
`
`Page 13
`
`·2· 2012 and were taught in my course and in other
`
`·3· courses that I taught, such as operating systems.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·And if I -- if I want to know about
`
`·5· your specific experience with the state of the art
`
`·6· as of March 2012 as it pertains to memory management
`
`·7· in a smart card-equipped mobile device, what could
`
`·8· you point me to in your background?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·I would -- I would direct you to
`
`11· classic textbooks such as Tanenbaum's original
`
`12· textbook on operating systems and the organization
`
`13· and operation of computers.· I have on the bookshelf
`
`14· behind me the textbook by Stevens on communications
`
`15· protocols, which includes protocols that are used in
`
`16· smart cards.· So that information was known and
`
`17· taught by me prior to 2012.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· And just to be clear,
`
`19· the subject matter you're talking about was taught
`
`20· by you prior to 2012, but not in the specific
`
`21· context of smart cards.· That smart card-specific
`
`22· context was added to your coursework later in time;
`
`23· is that right?
`
`24· · · · · A.· ·The references to let's say Apple Pay
`
`25· as an example of a smart card was added after 2012.
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 13
`
`
`
`·1· The discussion of operating systems, memory
`
`·2· management, communications protocols, security
`
`·3· apparatus, security protocols, authentication,
`
`Page 14
`
`·4· authorization, all of that was taught by me prior to
`
`·5· 2012.
`
`·6· · · · · Q.· ·And to be specific, your reference to
`
`·7· operating systems, memory management, communication
`
`·8· protocols, security apparatus, security protocols,
`
`·9· authentication, and authorization prior to 2012, was
`
`10· any of that specific to smart cards?· Did you
`
`11· address those subject matters as they pertained to
`
`12· smart cards prior to 2012?
`
`13· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·Yes.· Because many of those techniques
`
`15· that I just enumerated are the same ones that a
`
`16· smart card uses.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Would you have used the
`
`18· phrase smart card in your coursework prior to 2012?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`20· · · · · A.· ·Well, I don't have -- I can't cite a
`
`21· particular date.· Certainly I did discuss smart
`
`22· cards as they were introduced into the marketplace.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Now, you've referenced a
`
`24· lot of foundational technology used in mobile
`
`25· commerce and electronic commerce from your earlier
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 14
`
`
`
`Page 15
`·1· coursework.· I'd like to talk specifically about the
`
`·2· global platform standard.· Are you familiar with the
`
`·3· global platform standard?
`
`·4· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · · · Q.· ·Have you ever taught the global
`
`·6· platform standard in your coursework?
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·I have referenced it at a high level.
`
`·8· · · · · Q.· ·What time frame would you have
`
`·9· referenced the global platform standard at a high
`
`10· level?
`
`11· · · · · A.· ·It would have been after 2012.
`
`12· · · · · Q.· ·Have you ever personally worked with
`
`13· the global platform standard in any context?
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·No, not me personally.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·Have you ever personally worked on
`
`16· smart cards?
`
`17· · · · · A.· ·I have -- I have taught the subject as
`
`18· I explained, and that company Reliacast was
`
`19· developing soft -- payment software that would have
`
`20· included smart card payments as well as traditional
`
`21· credit cards, debit cards, and payment applications
`
`22· such as PayPal.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· ·If we narrow my question to payment
`
`24· applications on a secure element on a mobile device,
`
`25· do you have any exposure to that technology prior to
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 15
`
`
`
`·1· introducing the Apple Pay subject matter in your
`
`Page 16
`
`·2· coursework?
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · · · A.· ·I would have exposure from the computer
`
`·5· science journals and conference proceedings which I
`
`·6· read regularly throughout my career.
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Prior to adding Apple
`
`·8· Pay to your coursework, did you ever teach on the
`
`·9· subject matter of payment applications running on a
`
`10· secure element on a mobile device?
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · · · A.· ·I taught the fundamentals that are used
`
`13· in that environment, but I was not using Apple Pay
`
`14· as an example before 2012.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· And did you ever present
`
`16· those fundamentals specifically in the context of
`
`17· mobile payment?
`
`18· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what were the -- what was
`
`20· the specific mobile payment context that you
`
`21· introduced those fundamentals prior to the Apple Pay
`
`22· introduction into your coursework?
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·The context would have been payments
`
`24· with credit cards or debit cards or payment
`
`25· applications like PayPal in which protection of
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 16
`
`
`
`·1· consumer information, sensitive financial
`
`Page 17
`
`·2· information would have been required in -- in any
`
`·3· web-based payment system.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·In my original question leading to that
`
`·5· answer was specific to mobile payment technology on
`
`·6· a secure element on a mobile device and did not
`
`·7· encompass more broadly web-based secure financial
`
`·8· transactions.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·So just to ask again, if we limit the
`
`10· question to payment applications on a secure element
`
`11· on a mobile device, the subject matter of the '724
`
`12· patent, did you ever specifically address that type
`
`13· of technology as a professor prior to the
`
`14· introduction of Apple Pay into your coursework?
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·No.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· And outside of your role
`
`18· as a professor in your role as a professional, as an
`
`19· engineer, as a start-up founder, have you ever
`
`20· worked with payment applications running on a secure
`
`21· element on a mobile device?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·My programming team would have done
`
`24· that, and I would have -- and I supervised that, but
`
`25· I was not a coder at that point in time.
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 17
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· In what time frame is
`
`Page 18
`
`·2· the project you're alluding to in that answer?· You
`
`·3· are moving again now, Dr. Weaver.
`
`·4· · · · · A.· ·Once again, you cut out, so let's --
`
`·5· · · · · Q.· ·That was not an intentional dramatic
`
`·6· pause.· All right.· Let's see.· So -- so you -- I'll
`
`·7· just go back with my realtime here.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·You explained that your programming
`
`·9· team would have done that and you would have
`
`10· supervised their work, but you were not a coder at
`
`11· that point in time.· My follow-up question is what
`
`12· time frame were you alluding to in that answer?
`
`13· · · · · A.· ·That would be between the years 2000 to
`
`14· about 2015.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·And what was the project?
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·It was developing payment systems for
`
`17· streaming multimedia.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·And what types of payment applications
`
`19· running on a mobile device were you guys working
`
`20· on -- I'm sorry.· Let me take a step back.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·Was this what ultimately became
`
`22· Reliacast that was sold to Comcast?
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What payment applications
`
`25· running on a mobile device were you all working on
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 18
`
`
`
`·1· related to Reliacast?
`
`Page 19
`
`·2· · · · · A.· ·That would be credit cards, debit
`
`·3· cards, PayPal accessed from a mobile device.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·And what was the secure element that
`
`·5· those applications ran on?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·They did not operate within a secure
`
`·8· element.· Instead, as I was explaining before, we
`
`·9· were using the same or similar data protection
`
`10· protocols in our work that are nowadays used within
`
`11· secure elements.
`
`12· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Do you know whether the
`
`13· Reliacast work ever relied upon the global platform
`
`14· standard?
`
`15· · · · · A.· ·It did not.
`
`16· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· I would like to move
`
`17· on to some of the substance of your opinions in the
`
`18· '724 proceeding, and just to keep a somewhat clear
`
`19· record here, this is going to be in IPR2022-01256.
`
`20· Ryan, can I have you pull up Exhibit 2002 in the
`
`21· '724 patent proceeding?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·Dr. Weaver, we should all be able to
`
`23· look at the same screen here.· Can you see the cover
`
`24· page in your declaration from the '724 proceeding,
`
`25· Dr. Weaver?
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 19
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A.· ·Yes, I can.
`
`Page 20
`
`·2· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Very good.· Ryan, can you
`
`·3· scroll down to paragraph 62 in this document? I
`
`·4· believe that's going to be on page 20 -- there you
`
`·5· go.· Very good.· All right.· Dr. Weaver -- actually,
`
`·6· sorry, Ryan.· I was just -- can you take the excerpt
`
`·7· down?· Thank you.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·The title of this section is (quote as
`
`·9· read):
`
`10· · · · · · · ·A POSITA would not be motivated to
`
`11· · · · · · · ·combine Buhot and GPC with Zhu's smart
`
`12· · · · · · · ·card manager because the Zhu smart card
`
`13· · · · · · · ·manager would defeat Buhot and GPC's
`
`14· · · · · · · ·elaborate security measures.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Now, paragraph 62 through
`
`18· 67, you walk through some of the specific teachings
`
`19· and testimony from petitioner's expert, and then I
`
`20· believe for the first time on -- in paragraph 68 you
`
`21· lay out your opinion as to why a POSITA would not be
`
`22· motivated to combine Zhu's smart card manager with
`
`23· the Buhot/GPC system.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·Can I have you just to yourself review
`
`25· paragraph 68 in this declaration so I can ask some
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 20
`
`
`
`·1· follow-up questions?· Can you let me know when
`
`Page 21
`
`·2· you're ready?
`
`·3· · · · · A.· ·Sure.· I've read paragraph 68.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·All right.· Very good.· Is it a fair
`
`·5· characterization of this argument that you believe
`
`·6· the proposed combination requires storing payment
`
`·7· applications in general memory of the mobile
`
`·8· device and --
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· -- and that this general
`
`11· memory provides insufficient security?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`13· Dr. Weaver, if you need to review other parts of
`
`14· your declaration, please feel free to do that.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thanks.
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·My answer is yes to your question.
`
`17· Zhu's smart card manager manages memory by looking
`
`18· at the amount of free memory available when loading
`
`19· a new application, and if that amount of free memory
`
`20· is insufficient Zhu unloads an existing application
`
`21· and places it in the general memory of the mobile
`
`22· device and then loads the new application into the
`
`23· resulting freed-up memory.· And that exposes the
`
`24· application to security risks such as alteration or
`
`25· copying or deletion.
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 21
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· And your opinion
`
`Page 22
`
`·2· specifically is that the application that was placed
`
`·3· in general memory is subject to those security
`
`·4· risks, correct?
`
`·5· · · · · A.· ·Yes, that's true.
`
`·6· · · · · Q.· ·Does Zhu describe any security
`
`·7· associated with payment applications stored in the
`
`·8· mobile device's general memory?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·Zhu suggests two methods.· One would be
`
`11· encrypting the application that's being removed and
`
`12· stored in general memory.· And the second would be
`
`13· requiring a successful authentication using a
`
`14· digital certificate when attempting to reload a
`
`15· stored application.· And in my opinion, neither of
`
`16· those techniques provide the type of security that
`
`17· Buhot and GPC would implement in their systems.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· If we focus on
`
`19· encryption for the time being, how high does the
`
`20· security need to be -- actually, let's strike --
`
`21· strike the limiting to encryption.· Let me just ask
`
`22· this follow-up question.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·How high does the security need to be
`
`24· in the Buhot/Zhu combination to protect those
`
`25· payment applications when they're stored on the
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 22
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`·1· mobile device's general memory?
`
`·2· · · · · A.· ·Very high.
`
`·3· · · · · Q.· ·Is encryption -- does encryption ever
`
`·4· provide a sufficiently high security to permit
`
`·5· storing payment applications on a mobile device's
`
`·6· general memory?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`·8· · · · · A.· ·No.
`
`·9· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· In paragraph 69 of your
`
`10· declaration, which is up on the screen here, you
`
`11· state that (quote as read):
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Encrypting the application while
`
`13· · · · · · · ·storing it outside of the secure
`
`14· · · · · · · ·element still exposes it to copying to
`
`15· · · · · · · ·another system, where decryption can
`
`16· · · · · · · ·proceed.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Can decryption occur outside of the
`
`18· mobile device without the encryption keys?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection, form.
`
`20· · · · · A.· ·Yes, given substantial computing power
`
`21· outside of the mobile device.
`
`22· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· And what would that
`
`23· substantial computing power need to do in order to
`
`24· decrypt an encrypted application without the
`
`25· encryption keys?
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`Page 24
`
`·2· · · · · A.· ·The difficulty depends upon the type of
`
`·3· encryption used.· So as examples in my course, I
`
`·4· taught how an encrypted program can be decrypted
`
`·5· without the encryption keys using brute force
`
`·6· techniques, basically trying all combinations of the
`
`·7· bit patterns that make up an encryption key.· That
`
`·8· was for symmetric encryption.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·For asymmetric encryption there are
`
`10· different techniques that I taught about how to
`
`11· approach -- how to succeed in decrypting without
`
`12· advanced knowledge of the encryption keys.· And
`
`13· there are textbooks explaining how to -- how to do
`
`14· those operations.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Are there any encryption
`
`16· schemes that are not susceptible to cracking or
`
`17· defeating?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·It's possible that the National
`
`20· Security Agency has such encryption schemes, but no
`
`21· one in the general public, including me, would know
`
`22· the answer to that question.· But even the most
`
`23· advanced encryption schemes that I have seen, like
`
`24· elliptic curve encryption, can all eventually be
`
`25· hacked through some combination of schemes to do --
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 24
`
`
`
`Page 25
`·1· to achieve decryption.· It takes computing power and
`
`·2· time, but they can all be eventually decrypted.
`
`·3· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Okay.· I believe that
`
`·4· last answer was referring to the current state of
`
`·5· the art, but is it also true that as of 2012 there
`
`·6· were no perfect uncrackable encryption schemes --
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · · Q.· ·-- publicly known?
`
`·9· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · · Q.· ·The next sentence in paragraph 69 of
`
`11· your declaration states (quote as read):
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Encrypting the application would also
`
`13· · · · · · · ·necessitate the generation, storage,
`
`14· · · · · · · ·management, and distribution of new
`
`15· · · · · · · ·encryption keys, all of which is a
`
`16· · · · · · · ·notoriously difficult problem for
`
`17· · · · · · · ·security systems.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·I do.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· ·Is that description true of all
`
`21· encryption systems as of 2012?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Is the encryption scheme
`
`25· described in Zhu different from other encryption
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 25
`
`
`
`·1· techniques as of 2012 that might be used to secure
`
`Page 26
`
`·2· smart card systems?
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · · · A.· ·I don't remember Zhu identifying a
`
`·5· particular encryption scheme.· Could you point me to
`
`·6· a reference within Zhu?
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Well, I'm simply trying
`
`·8· to get to the -- I'm happy to pull up Zhu, but I'm
`
`·9· really trying to get to the kind of foundation of
`
`10· your opinion here, and I can ask it in a slightly
`
`11· different way.· Is it something specific about Zhu's
`
`12· encryption that leads you to conclude it would be
`
`13· insufficient in this context or is it encryption
`
`14· more generally that leads you to conclude it would
`
`15· have provided inadequate security in the proposed
`
`16· combination of Buhot and Zhu?
`
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. COWELL:· Objection to form.
`
`18· · · · · A.· ·It's the latter that Zhu simply says
`
`19· that the application can be encrypted, and I don't
`
`20· remember any additional detail as to methodology,
`
`21· but my opinion is more general, that encryption
`
`22· schemes known in the 2012 time frame were all
`
`23· breakable with computing power and time.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·(By Mr. Hart)· Ryan, can I have you
`
`25· pull up Exhibit 1001 from this same proceeding?
`
`IPR2022-01239
`Apple EX1029 Page 26
`
`
`
`Page 27
`·1· That is the '724 patent.· Can I have you scroll down
`
`·2· to column 10, please?· Just to make it a little
`
`·3· easier to use on the shared display, can I have you
`
`·4· zoom in on kind of the upper third of column 10?
`
`·5· Very good.· Thank you.· I apologize.· I had my
`
`·6· citation incorrect in my notes.· Can I have you go
`
`·7· to column 7 where the concept in column 10 is
`
`·8· introduced?· Towards the bottom.· Let's do the
`
`·9· bottom third on the screen.· Thank you.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Dr. Weaver, in column 7, lines 55 to
`
`11· 60, the '724 patent describes a TMSM providing a,
`
`12· quote (quote as read):
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Mechanism to make baseband storage as
`
`14· · · · · · · ·an extension for storing the
`
`15· · · · · · · ·software-based or logical smart cards
`
`16· · · · · · · ·e.g. in lieu of multiple physical
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Mifare cards swapped out from the
`
`18· · · · · · · ·emulator 122 to the TMSM 106, partly
`
`19· · · · · · · ·for solving the issue of limited memory
`
`20· ·
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
