UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`THE WALT DISNEY
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`COMPANY, DISNEY
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`:
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`:
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`STREAMING SERVICES
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`: Case Nos. IPR2022-01227
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`IPR2022-01228
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`LLC, AND HULU LLC,
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`Petitioner,
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`v.
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`WAG ACQUISITION, LLC,
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`Patent Owner.
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`:
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`:
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`:
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`:
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`:
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`Videotaped Deposition of W. LEO HOARTY
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`Thursday, July 6, 2023
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`9:58 a.m. CST
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`Job No.: 498171
`
`Pages: 1 - 80
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`Reported Stenographically by:
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`Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, CSR RPR CRR
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0001
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`
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`THE WALT DISNEY
`
`COMPANY, DISNEY
`
`:
`
`:
`
`STREAMING SERVICES
`
`: Case Nos. IPR2022-01227
`
`IPR2022-01228
`
`LLC, AND HULU LLC,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`WAG ACQUISITION, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`:
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`:
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`:
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`:
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`:
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`Videotaped Deposition of W. LEO HOARTY
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`Thursday, July 6, 2023
`
`9:58 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 498171
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`Pages: 1 - 80
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`Reported Stenographically by:
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`Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, CSR RPR CRR
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0001
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`
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`2
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`Videotaped deposition of W. LEO HOARTY, pursuant
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`to notice, before Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, a Certified
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`Shorthand Reporter in the States of Illinois, Texas,
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`and California, Registered Professional Reporter,
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`Certified Realtime Reporter, and a Notary Public in
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`and for the State of Illinois.
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0002
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`
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`LARISSA S. BIFANO, ESQUIRE
`
`THOMAS FULLER, ESQUIRE
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`DLA PIPER
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`33 Arch Street
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`26th Floor
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`Boston, Massachusetts 02110
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`617.406.6013
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`RONALD ABRAMSON, ESQUIRE
`
`M. MICHAEL LEWIS, ESQUIRE
`
`LISTON ABRAMSON LLP
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`The Chrysler Building
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`405 Lexington Avenue, 46th Floor
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`New York, New York 10174
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`212.257.1630
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`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`Jennifer Podis, Planet Depos Remote Tech
`
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0003
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`C O N T E N T S
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`EXAMINATION OF W. LEO HOARTY
`
`By Ms. Bifano
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`4
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`PAGE
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0004
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`5
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`WHEREUPON:
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`(Witness sworn.)
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`W. LEO HOARTY,
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`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
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`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. BIFANO:
`
`Q. All right. Good morning, Mr. Hoarty. How
`
`are you?
`
`A. I'm fine. Good morning.
`
`Q. Good morning. So my name is Larissa Bifano.
`
`I'm an attorney from the law firm of DLA Piper, and
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`I'm here today to take your deposition.
`
`A. Thank you.
`
`Q. Okay?
`
`A. Great.
`
`Q. Is there anyone in the room with you right
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`now?
`
`A. No. I'm by myself.
`
`Q. Okay. And where are you located?
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`A. I'm in my office in Mountain View,
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0005
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`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`6
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`California.
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`Q. Sounds lovely.
`
`A. I was planning on doing this from my home in
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`Morgan Hill in my home office, but I received a
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`notice from our power company, PG&E that just today
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`they are cutting power in my area to replace some
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`transformers. I thought it was a bill. I'm so glad
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`I opened that last night because at about 10:00, I
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`would have gone dark.
`
`Q. Oh, no.
`
`A. That would have been terrible. Boy, I'm
`
`lucky.
`
`Q. Okay. And how many times have you been
`
`deposed before?
`
`A. 11 total.
`
`Q. Okay. And which cases were you deposed in;
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`do you know?
`
`A. I have a list that I provided to my counsel.
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`I'm happy to pull it up and answer that. It's --
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`goes back many decades.
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`Q. That's okay. What, generally, did the
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`technology involve, and what was -- strike that.
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0006
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`
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`7
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`What was the general technology of the cases
`
`that you were deposed in?
`
`A. They involved set-top-box technology,
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`streaming video, digital advertising, and related
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`technologies.
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`Q. Okay. And then in those cases, were you
`
`generally retained by the plaintiff or the
`
`defendant?
`
`A. I would say two-thirds would be defendant
`
`and one-third plaintiff.
`
`Q. And do you own any patents?
`
`A. I do. I have almost 50 of them.
`
`Q. Wow. And what are the related -- what is
`
`the technology of those patents?
`
`A. Mostly around video on demand, cloud-based
`
`services, related set-top technology for streaming
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`media, digital advertising, like ad insertion,
`
`watermark detection. And then essentially in the
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`area of media over the internet.
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`Q. And have you ever asserted those patents
`
`against anyone?
`
`A. Yes.
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`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0007
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`
`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`8
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`Q. Okay. Can you tell me who you sued for
`
`infringement of your patents?
`
`A. My -- a company I founded named "Active
`
`Video Networks" was challenged by the Verizon Fios
`
`group over my "video on demand" patents. The
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`company -- in 2011, the company active video, I was
`
`not a participant in the company at the time. I had
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`founded the company in 1990, and I was long -- long
`
`gone on to new ventures.
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`But the company countersued Verizon in
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`federal court and five of my patents were asserted,
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`and the company prevailed with a very --
`
`Q. Okay.
`
`A. -- very big award.
`
`Q. And did you testify in that case?
`
`A. I did. I was the fact witness for my
`
`patents that were -- the patents at suit were five
`
`of my patents, mostly around video on demand
`
`technology.
`
`Q. Okay. And you were also, I'm assuming,
`
`deposed in that case?
`
`A. Oh, yes.
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0008
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`
`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`9
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`Q. Yeah. And where was that case pending
`
`again?
`
`A. In -- it was in the Eastern District Federal
`
`Court. Ended up being heard -- the trial ended up
`
`in Norfolk, Virginia. It was supposed to be
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`Alexandria, but they ran out of their -- their
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`calendar got jammed, so they moved us to Norfolk.
`
`Q. Okay. Did you prepare any notes for today's
`
`deposition?
`
`A. Oh, yeah. Yes, I did.
`
`Q. Do you have them with you?
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. Okay. And do you have all the exhibits for
`
`the -- in the proceeding?
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. Okay.
`
`A. Yeah.
`
`Q. Is there any reason you cannot testify
`
`truthfully today?
`
`A. No reason.
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`Q. And are you on any medications that would
`
`inhibit your ability to testify truthfully?
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0009
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`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`10
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`A. No.
`
`Q. And are you familiar with the ground rules
`
`of a deposition?
`
`A. I believe so. I've been coached for many
`
`days. I believe I'm fairly clear.
`
`Q. Okay. So if you need a break, just let me
`
`know. If you don't understand a question I'm
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`asking, also ask for it to be clarified. Let's try
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`not to speak over each other so the court reporter
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`can get a good record. And I think that that's
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`about it. But, I guess, let me know if you have any
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`questions.
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`I'll try it take a break about every hour,
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`but if you need a -- you know, a break sooner,
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`please just let me know. Or if you have any
`
`technical difficulties, just let me know.
`
`A. Excellent. Thank you.
`
`Q. Okay. Okay. So looking at your CV that's
`
`attached to your declaration, it says that you
`
`attended Ohio State University; is that correct?
`
`A. That is correct.
`
`Q. Okay. And you majored in electrical
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0010
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`11
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`engineering at Ohio State University?
`
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. Did you -- did you receive a degree from
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`Ohio State University?
`
`A. No, I did not. I left the university with
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`the intention of migrating to Berkeley, California,
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`and attending UC Berkeley. That requires a one-year
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`residency before they'll accept you. And during
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`that year, I was involved in a medical electronic
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`start-up, and unfortunately, kept putting it off,
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`and never -- never went on to UC Berkeley. A fine
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`school. I wish I had. But ended up with very
`
`interesting opportunities over the succeeding
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`decades.
`
`Q. So what classes did you take while you were
`
`at Ohio State?
`
`A. Well, they were -- they were -- you're
`
`taxing my memory, but it would be, you know, the
`
`preparatory -- the preparatory classes. Physics and
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`mathematics were -- believe it or not, were the
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`foundation at the time. And also -- so it was
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`mostly preparatory courses, other than the
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`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0011
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`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`12
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`required -- the required credits for nontechnical --
`
`nontechnical coursework.
`
`Q. And then after Ohio State, you did not -- is
`
`it correct that you did not attend another
`
`university?
`
`A. That is correct.
`
`Q. So you don't have a bachelor's degree?
`
`A. I do not. This was the mid 1970s, and the
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`microcomputer had just been invented. And it was a
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`time where Steve Jobs dropped out of college to
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`start Apple and Bill Gates dropped out of college to
`
`Microsoft and Larry Ellison dropped out of college
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`to start Oracle, the big database company. So it
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`was -- I guess it was just the times. It was pretty
`
`exciting with the new technology on the horizon. So
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`it drew us all away into this fascinating new world
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`that was evolving in Silicon Valley.
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`Q. And did you draft a declaration with respect
`
`to U.S. Patent Number 9,742,824 and U.S. Patent
`
`Number 9,762,636?
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`A. I did, yes.
`
`Q. Okay. And then can we refer to them as --
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0012
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`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`13
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`throughout this proceeding as the "'824" and "'636"
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`patents?
`
`A. Of course.
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`Q. Okay. And you submitted one declaration
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`that covers both patents; is that correct?
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`A. Yes, I did. By the way, I have my -- all
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`documents are on a screen to my right so if you see
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`me turn like this, I'm reading from my screen, and
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`this is just a laptop with a camera, so --
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`Q. Okay.
`
`A. -- it's not confusing.
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`I'm not looking at documents on the same
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`computer that I'm talking to you through.
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`Q. Okay. So you have a copy of your
`
`declaration, which is Exhibit 2006; is that correct?
`
`A. I do.
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`Q. Okay. And in this declaration, your list of
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`materials considered is in appendix C; correct?
`
`A. Yes, correct.
`
`Q. And there are no other materials you
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`considered other than in appendix C?
`
`A. No. Appendix C is complete.
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0013
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`14
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`Q. Okay. And when did counsel contact you to
`
`work on this declaration?
`
`A. We started on it -- for this declaration,
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`this winter, and I would have to look at my calendar
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`to get the exact date. February, March time frame.
`
`Q. Okay. Did you write your declaration?
`
`A. No. I wrote parts of it, lots of parts of
`
`it, but I -- the declaration, the structure, was
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`guided by counsel, and particularly legal terms and
`
`requirements.
`
`Q. But did you read and review all -- all pages
`
`of your declaration?
`
`A. Actually, many times, yes, I have.
`
`Q. Okay. And how long did you spend reading
`
`and reviewing your declaration?
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`A. Now, I would say I'm getting close,
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`according to my time log here, about 20 hours.
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`Q. 20 hours. Okay. And does that include
`
`reviewing the patents and then the petition that was
`
`filed in this case?
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`A. No. I was just working on the document.
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`Q. Okay. And then how long would you say you
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0014
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`15
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`spent on reviewing the patents and then the petition
`
`and institution decision?
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`A. Closer to 30 hours maybe of actual reading
`
`with interest, as you guys would say.
`
`Q. Okay. And how long did you spend preparing
`
`for this deposition today?
`
`A. In hours? Just we prepared -- we had a
`
`review on -- last Friday and then this Monday. I'd
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`have to look at my log, but less than -- you know,
`
`under eight hours.
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`Q. Okay.
`
`A. Excuse me. Under ten hours. Sorry.
`
`Q. Who did you meet with on Friday?
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`A. With Counsel Abramson and his partner.
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`Q. And what about on Monday?
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`A. Same.
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`Q. Okay. What documents did you review to
`
`prepare for your deposition today?
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`A. The documents would be the patents at issue,
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`the challenge -- the Carmel patent. I can give you
`
`the number. The Shteyn patent. That would be --
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`Shteyn is '806, if you don't mind my using the last
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`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0015
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`16
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`three. Carmel, '473. My own document, the IPR
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`itself. So that covered, I would say,
`
`substantially, the -- substantially, the documents
`
`that are at the core of this discussion today.
`
`Q. Okay. And then in your preparation, have
`
`you spoken with anyone at the patent owner, which is
`
`called WAG Acquisition LLC?
`
`A. No, I haven't.
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`Q. Okay. Have you spoken with WAG's litigation
`
`expert?
`
`A. No.
`
`Q. Okay. Have you reviewed any of his
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`declarations in the litigations?
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`A. Would you please clarify who you are
`
`referring to? Sorry. I just --
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`Q. Oh, so their current -- here, wait.
`
`His name is Keith Teruya -- I can't say
`
`this -- Teruya? It's T-e-r-u-y-a.
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`A. No, I have not spoken with him.
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`Q. Okay. And then you haven't reviewed his
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`declarations that he submitted in the pending
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`litigations?
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`17
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`A. I may have last fall and -- but I apologize.
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`I actually don't recall.
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`Q. Okay. And then have you spoken with any
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`other of WAG's prior IPR litigation experts?
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`A. No, I haven't.
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`Q. Okay. And have you reviewed any other prior
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`submissions by -- declarations by WAG, either in
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`federal court or at the PTAB?
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`A. Yes, I have.
`
`Q. And which ones?
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`A. The -- I'd have to bring up the list, but
`
`the pending IPRs that are from Google and from
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`Amazon.
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`Q. Okay. And are you retained by WAG as an
`
`expert in the pending IPRs from Google and Amazon?
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`A. Yes, I am.
`
`Q. Okay. And did you submit declarations in
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`each of those proceedings?
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`A. I have.
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`Q. Have you been deposed in any of those
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`proceedings?
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`A. No, I haven't. You're the first.
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`18
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`Q. Great.
`
`Okay. Let's open your declaration.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. And let's turn to paragraph 13 of your
`
`declaration. Let me know when you're there.
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`A. I'm there.
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`Q. Okay. So you see this is a paragraph
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`regarding the level of ordinary skill in the art.
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`Do you see that?
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. Okay. And you say that you largely agree
`
`with Dr. Houh's level of ordinary skill in the art;
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`is that correct?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Okay. And he says that the ordinary --
`
`level of ordinary skill is a [As read] B.S. in
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`computer science or electrical engineering (or
`
`comparable degree) and two years of experience in
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`networking or streaming media.
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`Right?
`
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. Okay. And do you feel that you are a person
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`Conducted on July 6, 2023
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`19
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`of ordinary skill in the art, under this definition?
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`A. I definitely think I qualify.
`
`Q. Okay. But you don't have a bachelor's of
`
`science or electrical engineering, do you?
`
`A. No, I don't.
`
`Q. You don't have any technical degree, do you?
`
`A. I do not.
`
`Q. Okay. So then can you tell me how you feel
`
`that you meet this level of ordinary skill.
`
`A.
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Object. Object to
`
`mischaracterizing -- object. Mischaracterizing.
`
`A. I feel I meet the criteria through my
`
`extraordinary background of -- founder of six
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`start-ups in Silicon Valley. I've had -- I've
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`raised $500 million from the top technology
`
`companies, IBM, Cisco, Intel, the top venture
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`capital companies out here. And they don't invest
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`on money. So they bet where they think something's
`
`good and there's a hope for the future. And in the
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`course of starting those companies, I have developed
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`technology and published many, many patents. Many
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
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`20
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`of my patents are quoted in other cases.
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`So I would just say my background is rich,
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`deep, and broad, and I'm amply qualified.
`
`Q. Okay. And then you adopt Dr. Houh's
`
`definition, but you also include some additional
`
`knowledge that would be required; correct?
`
`A. I don't understand what additional knowledge
`
`refers to specifically.
`
`Q. Sure.
`
`So I'm looking at paragraph 13 of your
`
`declaration.
`
`A. I see it.
`
`Q. And you make one clarification to the level
`
`of skill?
`
`A. Ah, I'm sorry. I see what you're saying.
`
`Okay.
`
`Q. Okay. And you say that [As read] It would
`
`include some theoretical understanding, as well as
`
`some familiarity with the basic internet protocols
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`and tools for working with dynamic content and
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`creating interactive websites to handle such
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`content.
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`21
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`Do you see that?
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. Okay. To understand the claims of the
`
`'824 patent, is it your opinion that a POSITA must
`
`have this additional knowledge?
`
`A. Yes. I would stand by that statement.
`
`Q. And why is that?
`
`A. Because the internet protocols are
`
`fundamental to the patent, to understanding the
`
`operation of the patent, I should say. It could be
`
`understood -- A-24 could be understood in a vacuum,
`
`but it would be -- for a POSITA to grasp the reasons
`
`for the invention, it would be -- it would be
`
`important to have a good understanding of the
`
`internet protocols and the challenges one faces
`
`moving data across the internet.
`
`Q. Okay. And what about tools for working with
`
`dynamic content? Why is that required?
`
`A. It's required to understand what you can and
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`cannot do with -- with the more difficult case of if
`
`you -- if I could be broad, media. Basically, you
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`would -- an expert would refer to it as time series
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`22
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`data, but it has a different problem than the simple
`
`act of accessing a website over the internet. And
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`so the -- it's dynamic content, and it is
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`continuously changing. And it has its own special
`
`challenges that are -- that one learns, interacting
`
`with such content.
`
`Q. And what do you mean by "dynamic content" in
`
`this paragraph?
`
`A. Content changing, as opposed to accessing a
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`photograph on a website or sharing an email or
`
`sending an email, I mean. An example of dynamic
`
`content would be, let's say, streaming video where
`
`the density of the data varies over time and
`
`sometimes, rapidly. That would be dynamic.
`
`Q. And how would a person of ordinary skill in
`
`the art determine whether content is dynamic versus
`
`static?
`
`A. Does it move or does it stand still.
`
`Q. Okay. That's good.
`
`Okay. And you also say here, in your
`
`definition, that there's "some theoretical
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`understanding."
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`23
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`When is there a theoretical versus a
`
`nontheoretical understanding?
`
`A. Theoretical understanding would mean -- it
`
`would mean basically the -- we call them -- in
`
`software, you refer to them as design patterns
`
`sometimes. But the theoretical understanding is
`
`how, basically, a system works, on a high level, an
`
`end-to-end, big-picture view of a complex system and
`
`the challenges that it faces.
`
`Like, for instance, I'll provide you one
`
`example, but I think it should be obvious.
`
`Q. Okay.
`
`A. That why, on the internet, particularly at
`
`the priority date of the patents at issue, the
`
`internet was conducted over telephone wires. That's
`
`150-year old technology. And the data rates were
`
`slow and inconsistent and there's never enough
`
`bandwidth and there was way too much congestion.
`
`And the theoretical understanding, in that case,
`
`would be what the -- what was causing that, why the
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`internet behaves that way, and what one could do to
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`ameliorate the -- or at least tame, if you will,
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`24
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`these rather difficult conditions in the -- out on
`
`the internet. That would be an example of a
`
`theoretical understanding.
`
`Q. Okay. And your definition also includes
`
`creating interactive websites to handle such
`
`content.
`
`What did you mean by that?
`
`A. Well, that's actually something that I've
`
`had many decades of experience with. And an
`
`interactive -- in this case, interactivity refers to
`
`a user interacting -- a customer or consumer
`
`interacting with a service to either view a movie,
`
`listen to audio, or how I actually began my career
`
`in this field, which is on Wall Street at Goldman
`
`Sachs, developing the very first trader workstations
`
`on their trading floors, where, in the past, they
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`only had fixed, dumb terminals, and I developed the
`
`very first interactive workstations for their equity
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`trading floor. And went on to many other even more
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`complex systems through the '80s while I was working
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`on Wall Street as the internet was just coming into
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`existence.
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`25
`
`During the '90s, the examples would be my
`
`direct experience -- relevant to that comment would
`
`be interactive television, which was one of the --
`
`the first start-up that I formed called ICTV. It
`
`was -- the initials. Interactive Cable Television,
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`later to be renamed Active Video Networks, which, by
`
`the way, is still serving video on demand and
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`interactive user guides to now 24 million households
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`on the Time Warner and Charter networks. Now,
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`obviously, the technology has advanced dramatically
`
`since the 1990s, when I founded the company, but it
`
`is still operational, and people use it every day on
`
`those two large cable systems now merged.
`
`So those are some of the user experience of
`
`what it means to create an interactive website that
`
`can serve a large number of people.
`
`Q. Okay. In your declaration, do you provide
`
`proposed claim constructions of claim language?
`
`A. No. I'm fully briefed on the claims and the
`
`constructions, but I would leave that to counsel.
`
`Q. Do any of your opinions turn on a particular
`
`construction of a claim term?
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`26
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`A. I'm not sure -- I basically understand what
`
`you mean by "turn on an understanding," but I'm not
`
`completely clear on the question, so if you could
`
`maybe help me with that question.
`
`Q. Sure. So I guess what I'm asking is, if --
`
`is there any argument that you make in your
`
`declaration that only works if a particular
`
`construction of a claim term is adopted?
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Objection to the form.
`
`A. I would think from now many hours in front
`
`of these that they were all plain to me. There were
`
`no -- there were no unclear elements of the claims
`
`as I made my opinions, formed my opinions.
`
`Q. Okay. So it's your opinion that none of the
`
`claim terms need to be construed for clarity?
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Object to the form. Object
`
`to scope. Out of scope.
`
`A. Not for me. Is -- what they stated was
`
`clear, and I was required no further explanation.
`
`Q. Okay. And in your declaration, you refer to
`
`the term "program"; is that right?
`
`A. Yes. A bad word in the software world, but
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`27
`
`that's okay.
`
`Q. Okay. Well, we're gonna talk about
`
`programs.
`
`A. If it could be a TV program, a computer
`
`software program, so it needs one more -- one more
`
`word with it to further clarify.
`
`Q. Okay. So let's talk about the context of
`
`the '824 and the '636 patents. So what type of
`
`program are we talking about in the context of those
`
`two patents?
`
`A. It refers to both a software program as well
`
`as content that it's conveying, I believe.
`
`Q. Now, if we look at paragraph 38 of your
`
`declaration, that starts on page 18.
`
`A. I'm there.
`
`Q. But -- okay. You state, and this goes on to
`
`the next page [As read] The present claims in this
`
`case expressly specify that what is being streamed
`
`is a program as opposed to just streaming media
`
`comprising a plurality of sequential media data
`
`elements. And then you later say that it goes to
`
`the entire program?
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
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`28
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`Do you see that?
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. What -- what's the difference between a
`
`program and the entire program?
`
`A. Let me reread my --
`
`Q. Sure.
`
`A. The difference is, from refreshing my
`
`memory, the entire program would simply be -- an
`
`example would be the intent is to provide a means,
`
`for example, for a user of the system to consume a
`
`coherent -- the program could be a TV show. It
`
`could be a music. It could just be a single song.
`
`But the goal was for uninterrupted -- the goal of
`
`the patents is for uninterrupted consumption of
`
`media where just delivering a plurality of
`
`sequential media data elements is obviously a subset
`
`of that goal.
`
`The reason there's a distinction is that if
`
`you are watching -- let's use video, if I may. If
`
`you're watching a video program, and the video is
`
`interrupted, as it so often was, in the early days
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`of the internet, it's annoying to the consumer. And
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`29
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`the -- and the goal is to -- the goal of the patents
`
`is to address that fundamental issue to be able to
`
`deliver a coherent user experience where they -- you
`
`consume the whole program without -- without
`
`interruption would be one interpretation.
`
`Q. Okay. And then paragraph 39, is this what
`
`you're talking about when you say, "These patents
`
`incorporate an element of continuity over the
`
`process of transmitting the program"?
`
`Is that what you were referring to in your
`
`last answer?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Okay. And do claims of either patent, the
`
`'824 or the '636, require the entire program?
`
`A. Require? I'm not sure I understand what
`
`"require" would mean.
`
`Q. Do they recite the word -- the phrase
`
`"entire program"?
`
`A. I'd have to -- you'd have to allow me a
`
`second to refresh my memory.
`
`Q. Go ahead. You can look at the --
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: I'm gonna object to the
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`30
`
`extent that you're asking questions that he didn't
`
`express an opinion on in his declaration.
`
`But go ahead.
`
`A. You know, in the interest of time, since I
`
`actually didn't make -- make an opinion on that. I
`
`really -- I think for the sake of simplicity, I
`
`don't have an opinion on that. I didn't examine
`
`that.
`
`Q. Okay. How would a person of ordinary skill
`
`in the art know when an entire program is provided
`
`to a user?
`
`A. That's so fundamental I don't know exactly
`
`how to answer it, but a simple example would be my
`
`own products that are running today. You see a
`
`program guide in front of you. It says "Big Bang
`
`Theory" episode -- season 6, episode 8. The
`
`expectation is that if you click on that icon of the
`
`Big Bang Theory that the program will play for
`
`30 minutes, and you will have a chance to enjoy it
`
`or not and then skip to another program.
`
`So the continuity issue is gleaned from
`
`typically the user interface, the information
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`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`31
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`provided to the user.
`
`Q. Okay. Whereas -- let's go to your Big Bang
`
`Theory example. So if I decide to watch Big Bang
`
`Theory season 2, episode 3, and I start it. And I
`
`make it through 15 minutes, and then I turn it off,
`
`did I receive the entire program?
`
`A. You received the entire program to the
`
`extent that you desired to consume it. But you had
`
`the opportunity to receive the entire program. You
`
`chose to exit halfway through it, then you -- by
`
`definition, that was your choice, so I'm not sure I
`
`can say any further -- say anything further.
`
`Q. So if the user makes a choice to watch only
`
`a portion of the 30 minutes, then in your opinion,
`
`that would still be the user receiving the entire
`
`program; is that right?
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Object. Beyond the scope.
`
`A. Let's just agree to that the system is
`
`capable of delivering a program to the extent you
`
`wish to consume it. Evenly -- or deliver it without
`
`interruption to the best that it can to the extent
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`that you wish to consume it. Does that make sense?
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0031
`
`
`
`Transcript of W. Leo Hoarty
`Conducted on July 6, 2023
`
`32
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`I see a big question mark over your head.
`
`Q. Okay. Let me do another example. So we can
`
`go back to the Big Bang Theory. I intend to watch
`
`all 30 minutes of it. But at minute 15, there's a
`
`power outage, and I can't view the last 15 minutes.
`
`Did I receive the entire program?
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Objection.
`
`A. That would be under a force majeure clause.
`
`Q. Sure.
`
`A. That almost happened to us today.
`
`Q. Yeah.
`
`A. You would have not been happy, I'm sure. I
`
`don't think that -- I have no opinion on that.
`
`That's almost like -- it's almost like a legal
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`question. If there's a power outage, obviously,
`
`it's beyond the control of all parties. So I don't
`
`know how you would characterize that as a -- as a
`
`useful opinion -- or how to frame that as a useful
`
`opinion.
`
`Q. Well, I guess I'm trying to understand when
`
`you say "entire program," what you mean by that in
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`your declaration. And I'm trying to understand the
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`
`IPR2022-01227
`EXHIBIT 1029 - PAGE 0032
`
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