`
`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen
`Jensen
`
`Date: May 3, 2023
`Case: Apple, Inc., et al -v- Smart Mobile Technologies LLC (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2005
`Page 1 of 170
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`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _________________________________________________
`
` APPLE INC.; SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS :
` CO., LTD.; and SAMSUNG :
` ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., :
` :
` Petitioners, : IPR 2022-00808
` :
` versus : Patent No.
` : 8,442,501 B1
` SMART MOBILE TECHNOLOGIES LLC, :
` :
` Patent Owner. :
`_________________________________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` DR. MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN
` 9:00 a.m.
` May 3, 2023
` CONDUCTED REMOTELY
`
` Susan DiFilippantonio, RPR, CCR No. B-2125
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`2
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`APPEARANCES:
`On Behalf of the Petitioners, APPLE INC.; SAMSUNG
`ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.; and SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA,
`INC.:
`HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`BY: Adam Fowles (via videoconference)
`2323 Victory Avenue
`Suite 700
`Dallas, TX 75219
`214.651.5116
`adam.fowles@haynesboone.com
`On Behalf of the Patent Owner, SMART MOBILE TECHNOLOGIES
`LLC:
`SKIERMONT DERBY LLP
`BY: Todd Martin (via videoconference)
`1601 Elm Street
`Suite 4400
`Dallas, TX 75201
`214.978.6600
`tmartin@skiermontderby.com
`SKIERMONT DERBY LLP
`BY: Rex Hwang (via videoconference)
`633 West 5th Street
`Suite 5800
`Los Angeles, CA 90071
`213.788.4500
`rhwang@skiermontderby.com
`
`Also Present: Kollin Caerez, Planet Depo Technician
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`3
`
` I N D E X
`WITNESS/EXAMINATION PAGE
`DR. MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN 4
`EXAMINATION 4
` BY MR. MARTIN
`CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 135
`SIGNATURE OF DEPONENT 137
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` E X H I B I T S
` (None Tendered.)
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`4
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`(Wednesday, May 3, 2023 9:00 a.m.)
` THE TECHNICIAN: Thank you to everyone
` for attending this proceeding remotely, which we
` anticipate will run smoothly. Please remember --
` remember to speak slowly and do your best not to
` talk over one another. Please be aware that we are
` recording this proceeding for backup purposes. Any
` off-the-record discussion should had -- be had away
` from the computer. Please remember to mute your
` microphones for those conversations. Please have
` your video enabled to help the reporter identify
` who is speaking. If you're unable to connect with
` video and are connecting via phone, please identify
` yourself each time before speaking. We will
` provide a complimentary unedited recording of the
` deposition with purchase of a transcript. I
` apologize in advance for any technical-related
` interruptions. Thank you.
` (Witness sworn.)
` DR. MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN,
`called as a witness was examined and deposed as follows:
` EXAMINATION
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`5
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`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Okay. Dr. Jensen, how are you doing today?
`A. Great. How are you?
`Q. I'm doing great. Nice to be here with you. And
`if you could, could you please give us your full name
`for the record?
`A. Yes. Michael Allen Jensen.
`Q. Okay. And would you mind just spelling that for
`us just so it's all clear?
`A. Sure. Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, Allen, A-L-L-E-N,
`Jensen, J-E-N-S-E-N.
`Q. Okay. And you understand that you are under
`oath today, correct?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. And is there any reason why you can't
`give your full and accurate testimony today?
`A. No.
`Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
`A. Yes.
`Q. How many times have you been deposed?
`A. I -- I lose track. We're probably around 14, 15
`times.
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
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`6
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`Q. Okay. So you're familiar with this process,
`then; is that fair?
`A. I believe so, yes.
`Q. All right. I'm going to -- and I -- I'm going
`to -- plan to ask you a few questions later about how
`many times you've been deposed, but just wanted to go
`ahead and lay down some ground rules just so that we're
`on the same page. I think it's always helpful.
` So the first thing is breaks. Any time you need
`a break, feel free to ask me so it doesn't -- the only
`caveat to that being if there's a pending question, I
`would -- I'm going to ask you to finish your answer to
`the question before you go take a break. But I just
`want to be clear, so any time you need a break, just let
`me know.
`A. All right.
`Q. Also I'm going to plan probably to take a break
`about every hour, or your counsel might ask for a break
`at some point in time, but that's typically how things
`operate.
` If I -- if I ever ask you a question that you
`don't understand, please let me know and I can try to
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
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`7
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`rephrase it. Is that -- is that fair?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. And I'm going to do my best to make sure
`that the questions are clear, but sometimes I'm not
`perfect, so it might not come across. And if you don't
`let me know, I'm going to assume that you understand the
`question. Is that fair?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. Now -- and another thing that comes up
`is, please try to just wait until I'm completely
`finished with my question. I might -- I kind of have a
`bad habit of pausing, so if you can wait until I'm
`finished, it will make a better record and make it
`easier on the Court Reporter. Does that make sense?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And also your counsel at different points in
`time may want to interject after I ask a question with
`an objection -- or I -- sorry, not your counsel, but
`counsel for the petitioner. So after I finish asking a
`question, if you can pause for a little bit to give your
`-- to give counsel an opportunity to add an objection,
`then that would be helpful.
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`A. I will do my best.
`Q. Okay. And, of course, that may not be -- I
`mean, nobody expects you to be perfect, but that's all
`anyone can ask.
` Now, one thing about breaks is during breaks I
`would ask that you not consult with anyone else about
`your testimony during any breaks. So it's just we're
`trying to get your ideas and your opinions and nobody
`else's for today.
`A. I understand.
`Q. Is there anybody else in the room with you?
`A. No, sir.
`Q. Are you in communication with anyone else?
`A. No.
`Q. Okay. Do you have anything beside you? Is
`there anything -- any papers, any -- any notes that you
`might look at?
`A. No, there's no notes. I have -- I have a stack
`of papers on the desk, but I don't have any notes
`relevant to these proceedings.
`Q. Okay. So the -- the papers on your desk there,
`you don't have anything -- any of the exhibits that you
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
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`9
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`have cited in your declaration or any paper copies of
`anything?
`A. I don't have paper copies of anything --
`Q. Okay.
`A. -- like that.
`Q. Are you running any other programs on your
`computer other than this deposition interface?
`A. So what I have open other than the deposition
`interface is I do have Adobe Acrobat open, and there I
`have electronic copies of several documents, clean
`copies of several documents.
`Q. Okay. What -- they're all clean. What
`documents are those?
`A. So the '863 Patent, a clean copy of my
`declaration, and then the primary exhibit -- the primary
`references that I relied on for my declaration.
`Q. Okay. So --
`A. And then I have Windows Explorer open with other
`exhibits in case you should ask me to look at those.
`Q. So all -- everything that you have open, they
`are exhibits that you cited in your declaration; is that
`correct?
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
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`10
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`A. Yes, other than my declaration -- yeah, other
`than my declaration, yes, the rest are exhibits,
`correct.
`Q. Okay. And the Windows Explorer, those are all
`-- all the exhibits you have on there, those are all
`clean copies?
`A. Those are all clean copies, yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. So everything you have is a clean copy?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay.
` MR. MARTIN: So if we can, can we open up
` Exhibit 1003, please.
` THE WITNESS: And to be clear, you're
` asking the tech to bring it on screen?
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Yes.
`A. Okay.
`Q. Yes, I'm asking the tech to bring it on screen.
` THE TECHNICIAN: Give me one second. I'm
` pulling it up now.
` Exhibit 1003 should be on your screen
` now.
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`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Okay. And can you see that, Dr. Jensen?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And that is your exhibit in this case, correct?
`A. This is the title page, the front page of my
`declaration in this case.
`Q. Okay. So -- and if I refer to this as your
`declaration, you will understand what I'm talking about;
`is that fair?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. And if we look at paragraph 1, you see
`here that we have identified -- you have identified the
`petitioner in this IPR, and that is Apple Inc. So when
`I refer to Apple Inc. as the petitioner, you will know
`who I'm talking about, correct?
`A. Yes, that's correct.
`Q. Okay. And this IPR is related to U.S. Patent
`8,982,863. Is that your understanding?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And if I refer to that patent as the '863
`Patent, you'll understand that I am referring to Patent
`Number 8,982,863, right?
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`A. Yes.
`Q. Okay. And if I refer to the patent owner, you
`understand that I'm referring to the owner of the '863
`Patent. Is that fair?
`A. Yes.
`Q. Okay. So, Dr. Jensen, are you being compensated
`for your role with respect to these IP -- this IPR
`proceeding?
`A. Yes. As I say in my declaration, I am being
`compensated.
`Q. Are you being paid hourly?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And what is your hourly rate?
`A. $475 per hour.
`Q. Is there -- now, besides the hourly part of your
`compensation, is there any flat-rate component to how
`you're being paid?
`A. No, sir.
`Q. Okay. So it's straight hourly compensation?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And were you given a budget of any kind?
`A. No, not a budget.
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`13
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`Q. Okay. When were you retained to provide your
`opinions in this IPR?
`A. I don't recall. It seems well over a year ago,
`maybe two. I don't recall, but it was -- it's been some
`time ago.
`Q. Okay. So do you know if it would have been 2022
`or 2021?
`A. I believe it was approximately a year ago in
`2020 -- early 2022, but I'm -- it's -- I am not -- I'm
`not entirely certain.
`Q. Okay. And to date, can you estimate how much
`you've invoiced for this IPR proceeding?
`A. I -- I -- I don't think I can. There have
`been -- I've been involved in many different patents in
`this family of patents for IPRs, and it's very difficult
`for me to remember how much time I spent on each one, so
`I would have to -- I would have to look at that. Tens
`of hours, but beyond that, I cannot be specific.
`Q. Okay. So you're unsure how much time you've
`spent working on this specific IPR; is that fair?
`A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. And you can't provide any kind of
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`estimate? Tens of hours, I think, is -- you said is
`your best estimate?
`A. I mean, yeah, many tens of hours, but that's
`really all I can say. It's -- it spanned a year at
`least, so I just don't recall.
`Q. Okay. That's fair.
` So are you able to estimate how much time you
`spent preparing the declaration that you submitted in
`this IPR -- for this IPR proceeding, including the
`review of any relevant materials?
`A. No. I mean, the -- the bulk of my time has been
`on preparing the declaration, so -- so, no, I cannot
`give a better estimate than what I've already given
`here.
`Q. Okay. Which is many tens of hours?
`A. Yeah. I'm -- yes.
`Q. Okay. What else have you spent time on?
`A. For -- for this IPR?
`Q. Yes.
`A. Beyond reviewing prior art and preparing the
`declaration, which is what you asked me previously, any
`other time has been preparing for this deposition.
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`Q. How much time do you estimate that you spent
`preparing for this deposition?
`A. Eight hours, ten hours, something in that.
`Q. Okay.
`A. I think.
`Q. And did you meet with anyone to prepare for this
`deposition?
`A. I met with counsel for the petitioner.
`Q. And just one time or more than one time?
`A. Multiple times.
`Q. Just for this declaration -- or just for this
`deposition?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And can you estimate how much time you spent
`meeting with counsel?
`A. Maybe four or five hours.
`Q. Okay. And can we turn to page 122 of the
`declaration, please. Okay. So that is your signature,
`correct?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And it's dated June 30th, 2022?
`A. That's correct.
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`Q. Have any of your opinions changed, with respect
`to your declaration, since June 30th, 2022?
`A. No, sir.
`Q. All right. Have you ever been retained as an
`expert in an IPR before? I think I know the answer to
`this question.
`A. Only in the context of this family of -- of
`patents.
`Q. Okay. And when was the first -- what was --
`what was the first patent that you worked on in this
`family. Do you remember?
`A. No, sir, I don't. I'm sorry.
`Q. Do you remember how many -- how many different
`IPRs you've worked on for this family of patents?
`A. Eight.
`Q. And you've provided eight separate declarations?
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. And have you been deposed in each of those eight
`cases?
`A. Not yet. Not yet all of them; some of them.
`Q. How many times have you been deposed for this
`family?
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`A. So this will make my sixth.
`Q. Okay. And so you've never been retained --
`excuse me. You've never been retained by a patent owner
`for an IPR; is that fair?
`A. That's -- that's correct.
`Q. Okay. Have you ever been retained as an expert
`in a patent case in -- for district court?
`A. Yes, sir, I have.
`Q. Can you tell me how many times?
`A. Six, eight, somewhere in that range.
`Q. And did you provide a declaration in those
`cases?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And did you give -- how many times were you --
`have you been deposed in district court?
`A. Depositions, a similar number, you know, in that
`six, seven range.
`Q. Have you ever testified at trial?
`A. No, sir.
`Q. So for -- have you ever testified -- have you
`ever provided an opinion -- I'm sorry. Strike that.
` Have you ever provided an opinion on behalf of a
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`patent owner in any circumstance?
`A. Yes, I have.
`Q. Okay. What -- what were the -- can you tell me
`about that?
`A. I -- I'd have to go through and look at old
`materials, but in terms of a patent owner asserting
`claims against a potential infringer.
`Q. Was that in district court?
`A. That would've been in district court.
`Q. And do you remember who was involved, who the
`parties were?
`A. No, I don't. I am sorry.
`Q. Okay. And about how long ago was that?
`A. Years ago. I -- I -- yeah, years ago. I don't
`know.
`Q. Okay. So can you let me know -- can you give me
`a little -- brief overview of what you did to prepare
`for this declaration, besides meeting with counsel?
`A. For this declaration?
`Q. This -- I'm sorry. Excuse me. For this
`deposition. Thank you.
`A. Oh, for this deposition. Reviewing -- so beyond
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`meeting with counsel, reviewing my declaration,
`reviewing the primary references and reviewing other
`references as I needed to refresh my memory.
`Q. Okay. So when you say "primary references,"
`what are you referring to?
`A. So I cited four primary references in my
`declaration. Those would be 1005, Ahopelto; I think
`1007, which is Matero; 1008, which is Hardwick; and
`1009, which is Sood. I'm referring to those as primary
`references.
`Q. Okay. And you said that you also reviewed other
`references. Are you referring to other references that
`have been cited in your declaration?
`A. Yes, others that are exhibits that -- that I
`also referred to in my declaration. Yes, sir.
`Q. Did you review anything that hasn't been
`referred to in your declaration?
`A. No, sir.
`Q. Okay. So when you were retained in this matter,
`were you given any assumptions to use in forming your
`opinions?
` MR. FOWLES: Beyond the scope.
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`20
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` Privilege.
` MR. MARTIN: I can ask about any
` assumptions that he was given.
` MR. FOWLES: You're asking about content
` of communications.
` MR. MARTIN: I'm asking about any
` assumptions that were provided by counsel.
` MR. FOWLES: Dr. Jensen, I instruct you
` not to answer that due to privilege.
` MR. MARTIN: That -- that's Rule 26. You
` can go -- do you need to look that up? I can wait
` for a minute. It's -- comes straight from Rule 26.
` MR. FOWLES: I don't --
` MR. MARTIN: Ask -- we can wait for a
` minute, because it's -- I can ask about facts or
` data or assumptions.
` Okay. Well, let's go ahead and move on.
` Let's go ahead and move on.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. So let me rephrase the question and see if this
`is -- works better. Okay. So were you given any
`assumptions that you relied upon in forming your
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`21
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`opinions?
`A. I don't recall ever being told any assumptions
`or instructed to make any assumptions.
`Q. Okay. And were -- was any -- were any facts or
`data provided to you that you relied upon to -- in
`forming your opinion?
`A. Facts or data might include, for example, what?
`I mean, documents?
`Q. Just anything, yes, if -- that you were provided
`any documents.
`A. I mean, I was provided documents in -- as I was
`preparing my declaration, yes, sir.
`Q. Okay. So what documents were you provided?
`A. Obviously the original patent, the '863 Patent,
`as well as the file history, the prosecution history of
`that patent, references such as the four we just talked
`about. I mean, those are the -- those are the main
`things that I recall.
`Q. Okay.
` MR. MARTIN: So can we turn to paragraph
` 23 of your declaration -- of the declaration,
` please.
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`22
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` THE TECHNICIAN: Do you know what page
` number that's under?
` MR. MARTIN: Page 13.
` THE TECHNICIAN: Yes, sir. Give me one
` second. There we are.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Okay. So here we talk -- you -- you testify
`here in your declaration that the critical date for this
`patent is June 4, 1999. Is that something that you
`determined yourself?
`A. No. So this is something that -- that counsel
`informed me of.
`Q. Okay. Who -- who wrote your declaration?
`A. I wrote the vast majority of it or edited parts
`that may have been drafted by someone else.
`Q. Okay. So you wrote the first draft?
`A. Of -- of -- of most of -- of this. But there
`were parts that counsel had prepared, but I edited
`everything before it was final.
`Q. Okay. What parts did counsel provide?
`A. Well, that's a good question. Certainly some of
`the language about legal understanding, that was drafted
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`23
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`by counsel. And there -- counsel helps -- helped me
`with -- with figures and diagrams, at my request. And
`then there -- there were other places where there may
`have been some drafting by counsel. I couldn't identify
`and tweeze out what they may have draft -- counsel may
`have drafted versus what I may have drafted on the first
`draft.
`Q. Okay.
` MR. MARTIN: So could we move to
` paragraph 21 of the declaration, which is on page
` 11.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. So in this paragraph, which extends onto page
`12, there's a list of references that you reviewed in
`forming your opinions, correct?
`A. That's correct.
`Q. Are there any additional references that you
`reviewed before completing this declaration, that are
`not listed in paragraph 21?
`A. If -- if there were, I don't recall any. I
`believe that I put everything in here.
`Q. Okay. Is it fair to say that if there was
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`Transcript of Dr. Michael Allen Jensen
`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`24
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`something important that you had seen or reviewed, you
`would've included it in the -- in your declaration?
`A. Yes, that's fair.
`Q. All right. And the first reference listed is
`U.S. Patent 5,970,059 to Ahopelto, correct?
`A. Correct.
`Q. And I think you had previously testified that
`that was provided to you.
`A. Yes, sir.
`Q. Okay.
` MR. MARTIN: And then, if we may, can we
` go to paragraph 5 on page 5 of the declaration.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. And in page 5 -- on page 5 you said that, "I
`will continue to review any new material as it is
`provided."
` Has any new material been provided to you since
`June 30th, 2022?
`A. No. Not that I recall, no.
`Q. Okay. And have you reviewed anything else to
`prepare, other than what you've already cited as an
`exhibit in your declaration?
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`Conducted on May 3, 2023
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`25
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`A. No, sir.
` MR. MARTIN: Okay. So can we go back to
` paragraph 21, please. And that's -- there we go.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Can you tell me which of these references that
`you found yourself?
`A. I -- I would struggle to be comprehensive in --
`in that. My recollection is that Granbohm, which is
`Exhibit 1010, is something that I identified. And I
`know there were others in the list, things like
`Exhibit 10- -- 1021 and 1022 and 1023. I -- I
`specifically recall identifying those references.
`Beyond that, I don't recall.
`Q. Okay. Have you read the petition that has been
`filed in this matter?
`A. I don't believe I've read the petition.
`Q. Okay. Let's go on -- move on to something a
`little different.
` MR. MARTIN: Can we go to paragraph 27 of
` the declaration.
`BY MR. MARTIN:
`Q. Okay. So in paragraph 27 you identify a
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`P
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