No. 23-125299
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.
`
`VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`JUNE 15, 2023
`
`Reported by:
`COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`CSR 7882
`
`THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 1 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`IPR2022-01150
`
`Patent No. 9,189,785
`
`CM#52959.95R785
`
`) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`vs.
`
`MOZIDO,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 1 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.
`
`VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`JUNE 15, 2023
`
`Reported by:
`COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`CSR 7882
`
`THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 1 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`IPR2022-01150
`
`Patent No. 9,189,785
`
`CM#52959.95R785
`
`) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`vs.
`
`MOZIDO,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 1 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-01150
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,189,785
`·7· ·MOZIDO, INC.,· · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CM#52959.95R785
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`15· · · · · · · · · ·MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · · JUNE 15, 2023
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`· · ·CSR 7882
`25· ·No. 23-125299
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 2 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-01150
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,189,785
`·7· ·MOZIDO, INC.,· · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CM#52959.95R785
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.,
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`15· · · · · · ·a witness herein, taken on behalf of
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`16· · · · · · ·the Petitioner via Zoom videoconference
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`17· · · · · · ·at 7:06 a.m. on Thursday, June 15,
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`18· · · · · · ·2023, before Colleen M. Peterman,
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`19· · · · · · ·CSR 7882.
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 3 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES (All Participants Appeared Remotely):
`
`·2
`· · ·For Petitioner:
`·3
`· · · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`·4· · · · · · BY EUGENE GORYUNOV
`· · · · · · · 180 North LaSalle Street, Suite 2215
`·5· · · · · · Chicago, Illinois 60601
`· · · · · · · 312.216.1620
`·6· · · · · · 312.216.1621 Fax
`· · · · · · · eugene.goryunov@haynesboone.com
`·7
`· · · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`·8· · · · · · BY BROOKE COHEN
`· · · · · · · 6000 Headquarters Drive, Suite 200
`·9· · · · · · Plano, Texas 75024
`· · · · · · · 972.739.6900
`10· · · · · · brooke.cohen@haynesboone.com
`
`11
`· · ·For Patent Owner:
`12
`· · · · · · · VOLPE KOENIG
`13· · · · · · BY DANIEL H. GOLUB
`· · · · · · · · ·BRANDON R. THEISS
`14· · · · · · 30 South 17th Street, Suite 1800
`· · · · · · · Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
`15· · · · · · 215.568.6400
`· · · · · · · dgolub@vklaw.com
`16· · · · · · btheiss@vklaw.com
`
`17· · · · · · KASOWITZ BENSON TORRES LLP
`· · · · · · · BY CHEN "ALEXANDRA" JIA
`18· · · · · · · ·JOHN W. DOWNING
`· · · · · · · 333 Twin Dolphin Drive, Suite 200
`19· · · · · · Redwood Shores, California 94065
`· · · · · · · 650.453.5170
`20· · · · · · 650.453.5171 Fax
`· · · · · · · cjia@kasowitz.com
`21· · · · · · jdowning@kasowitz.com
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 4 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS:· MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. GORYUNOV· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·8· ·PETITIONER'S· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·(No Exhibits Marked)
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`24
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`25
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 5 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · JUNE 15, 2023
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MICHAEL I. SHAMOS, PH.D.,
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
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`·6· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
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`·7· · · · · · · · · AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`10
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`11· ·BY MR. GORYUNOV:
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· Good morning, Dr. Shamos.
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`13· · · · ·A.· Good morning.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· How many times have you been deposed before?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· I don't know the exact number, but this is the
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`16· ·150th case in which I've been deposed.· Some of the
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`17· ·cases I've been deposed more than once.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· Fair to say you know how this deposition -- or
`
`19· ·how depositions proceed?
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`20· · · · ·A.· I like to think so.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· All right.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Well, with that, do you have a copy of the
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`23· ·'785 patent?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· Yes, I do.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Would you please open that up.
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 6 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
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`·1· ·Let me know when you're ready.
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`·2· · · · ·A.· It's open.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Sir, are you looking at something
`
`·4· ·that's been previously marked Exhibit 1001?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· And this is U.S. Patent 9,189,785?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· And if I refer to this as the '785 patent
`
`·9· ·during our conversation today, you'll know what I'm
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`10· ·referring to?
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`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.· It's commonly done.
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· Let's go to column 7, please.
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`13· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· Go with me to line 15, please.
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`15· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Do you see there's a discussion of
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`17· ·EFT, which is electronic fund transfer?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· Do you see that?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Yes, I do.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· And a couple of lines later, there is an
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`22· ·Automated Clearing House, ACH, discussion.
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`23· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· EFTs use debit networks; correct?
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 7 of 55
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· ACHs use debit networks; right?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· Well, that's an interesting question.· I think
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`·4· ·you have to look at the individual network that's being
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`·5· ·used to determine whether it's used only for ACH or
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`·6· ·whether it's actually a debit network; for example, a
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`·7· ·realtime debit network.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· All right.· What do you mean by realtime debit
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`·9· ·network?
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`10· · · · ·A.· So if you look at line 18, it lists Star, the
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`11· ·New York Clearinghouse Exchange, PULSE, et cetera.
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`12· ·Okay?· So those are realtime debit networks.
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`13· · · · · · ·What that means is if I go to a store and I
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`14· ·present a debit card and the merchant accepts the debit
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`15· ·card for the transaction, money will be deducted from my
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`16· ·account, the account that's associated with the card,
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`17· ·immediately.· That is, within seconds, it will be
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`18· ·debited from my account.
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`19· · · · · · ·That's not true of ACH networks.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· Got it.· So you pointed out Star, NYCE, and
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`21· ·PULSE as examples of debit networks; right?
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`22· · · · ·A.· Well, the patent points those out, yes.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Are you aware of Interlink, Maestro,
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`24· ·and PULSE debit networks?
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`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Well, PULSE is one of the ones that's
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 8 of 55
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`·1· ·listed, listed here.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Right.· Okay.· Are you familiar with Interlink
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`·3· ·and Maestro?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· Are you aware that Interlink is a Visa debit
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`·6· ·network?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· Are you aware that Maestro is a MasterCard
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`·9· ·debit network?
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`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· And I know that we agree that the patent
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`12· ·refers to PULSE, but are you aware that PULSE is a
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`13· ·Discover debit network?
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`14· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· Going back to column 7, are you aware of what
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`16· ·information is required to be included in an EFT
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`17· ·request?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· What is that information?
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`20· · · · ·A.· I don't think I can list all of it.· You
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`21· ·certainly have to indicate the bank and the account out
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`22· ·of which money is to be taken, and you're going to
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`23· ·indicate the bank and account into which money is to be
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`24· ·deposited.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Do you need to specify debit
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 9 of 55
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`·1· ·network information in an EFT request?
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`·2· · · · ·A.· When you say "debit network information," the
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`·3· ·information is being sent over a particular network.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Do you need to specify information about which
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`·5· ·network the information is going to be sent over in an
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`·6· ·EFT?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· Well, okay.· So I need more information in
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`·8· ·your hypothetical.
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`·9· · · · · · ·So let's suppose, for example, that I'm a
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`10· ·merchant and I use a payment processor and I have
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`11· ·instructed the payment processor that all of my Visa
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`12· ·transactions, for example, are to go through Visa's
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`13· ·network.· Then when I send that particular processor a
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`14· ·Visa transaction, I don't have to specify what network
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`15· ·it's going to because the processor already knows that.
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`16· · · · · · ·Now, if I have a choice of networks and I want
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`17· ·to exercise some discretion as to which network is to be
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`18· ·used, then I would have to tell the processor which
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`19· ·network I'd like to use.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· What are some circumstances where you may want
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`21· ·to specify a different debit network to be used to
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`22· ·process your EFT?
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`23· · · · ·A.· It may have to do with, for example, the fees
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`24· ·that are being charged, the processing fees that are
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`25· ·being charged by that network.· I may want to reduce the
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 10 of 55
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`·1· ·fees.
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`·2· · · · · · ·It may have to do with the policies on how
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`·3· ·soon the merchant is going to receive his money.· If I
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`·4· ·want to receive my money immediately, then I want to use
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`·5· ·a network in which I can get my money the fastest at the
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`·6· ·lowest cost.
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`·7· · · · · · ·So those are the considerations I think a
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`·8· ·merchant would be concerned with.
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· So in other words, let's say that I want to
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`10· ·use a Visa card, and as a matter of course, Visa
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`11· ·transactions are processed through Interlink, but I, as
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`12· ·the merchant, maybe get a really good deal through
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`13· ·MasterCard's Maestro network.
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`14· · · · · · ·I can specify that any Visa transactions use
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`15· ·the Maestro network; is that correct?
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`16· · · · ·A.· I'm not sure that's true.· I don't know if
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`17· ·MasterCard is going to process Visa transactions.· There
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`18· ·are networks that will do that.· I don't know if Maestro
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`19· ·does that.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· Do you know when MasterCard launched its
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`21· ·Maestro network?
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`22· · · · ·A.· No.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· Since the Maestro debit network was launched,
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`24· ·you would agree that, as a general matter, it's been
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`25· ·used to process MasterCard debit transactions; right?
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 11 of 55
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Same question for Interlink.
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`·3· · · · · · ·Since Interlink debit network was launched,
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`·4· ·you'd agree with me that it's generally been used to
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`·5· ·process Visa debit transactions; right?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· At least those, yes.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· Do you know what other transactions are
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`·8· ·processed over Interlink other than Visa transactions?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· No, I don't.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· What information is required to be included in
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`11· ·an ACH transaction request?
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`12· · · · · · ·MR. GOLUB:· I have an objection just as to
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`13· ·form and the timing of your question, Counsel.
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`14· ·Basically, can you put a time frame around --
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`15· · · · · · ·MR. GORYUNOV:· Oh, sure.· Absolutely.
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`16· ·BY MR. GORYUNOV:
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`17· · · · ·Q.· Dr. Shamos -- that's a good clarification.
`
`18· · · · · · ·At the time of the '785 patent -- let's say
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`19· ·between 2012 and 2013 -- would you be aware of the
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`20· ·contents of an ACH transaction request?
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`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What are those contents in the time
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`23· ·frame of 2012 to 2013?
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`24· · · · ·A.· It's very simple.· I have to specify a bank
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`25· ·routing number and account number for the account that
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 12 of 55
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`·1· ·is to be debited and a routing number and account number
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`·2· ·for the account that is to be credited.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Have you ever personally created a
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`·4· ·request to use a debit network?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· Well, such requests are normally created by
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`·6· ·computer.· So I guess the answer to that is no.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· What information is included in -- let me ask
`
`·8· ·a different question.
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`·9· · · · · · ·Is there a specific designation for how we
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`10· ·would refer to a request to use a debit network?
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`11· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· Repeat the question.
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Sure.· Would you consider an EFT or an ACH a
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`13· ·request to use a debit network?
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`14· · · · ·A.· Well, it depends on what your definition of
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`15· ·debit network is.· For me, a debit network's a network
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`16· ·that processes debit transactions; that is, debit card
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`17· ·transactions.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
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`19· · · · ·A.· An ACH transaction may be a debit or a credit.
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`20· ·And so an ACH network I would normally not refer to as a
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`21· ·debit network, even though there is such a thing, a
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`22· ·transaction called an ACH debit.
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`23· · · · · · ·I'll give you an example of an ACH debit.· So
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`24· ·I booked a 50th anniversary cruise for me and my wife.
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`25· ·I had to pay for it a year in advance.· And they offered
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 13 of 55
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`·1· ·a 3.3 percent discount if I used ACH.
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`·2· · · · · · ·And so I filled out a form with the cruise
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`·3· ·company where I gave my information as to what my bank
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`·4· ·account number is and what the bank routing number is,
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`·5· ·and they processed an ACH debit, which is a grabbing of
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`·6· ·money out of my account and depositing it to their
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`·7· ·account.· That's an ACH debit.
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`·8· · · · · · ·My wife uses ACH credits all the time.· So
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`·9· ·when she pays bills, she has a piece of software called
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`10· ·Quicken, and Quicken communicates with the bank, and it
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`11· ·sends ACH credit requests to my bank to take money out
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`12· ·of my account and credit it to somebody else's account.
`
`13· ·Now, an ACH credit is not a debit.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· Right.· Well, before I go back to EFTs,
`
`15· ·congratulations on the 50th anniversary.
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`16· · · · ·A.· Well, the 50th anniversary is actually this
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`17· ·year, but we couldn't take it this year.· So it's going
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`18· ·to be next year.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· Regardless, that's quite an accomplishment.
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`20· · · · · · ·All right.· Back to EFTs then.
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`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· Would you consider an EFT a request to use a
`
`23· ·debit network?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· Let's be careful about the terminology.· So
`
`25· ·EFT is an abbreviation for electronic funds transfer.
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`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 14 of 55
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`·1· ·There are many different ways of accomplishing
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`·2· ·electronic funds transfers.· ACH is an electronic funds
`
`·3· ·transfer.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·In the patent, however, the term that's used
`
`·5· ·is electronic funds transfer debit networks, not EFT but
`
`·6· ·EFT debit.· Those listed there on column 7, line 18 --
`
`·7· ·Star, NYCE, and PULSE -- are EFT debit networks.· ACH is
`
`·8· ·also an EFT network.· It's just not a debit network.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Is Maestro or Interlink in the same
`
`10· ·category as Star, NYCE, and PULSE?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· Is knowledge of a debit network necessary to
`
`13· ·complete a transaction in the context of the '785
`
`14· ·patent?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· Now, I have to understand what you mean by
`
`16· ·"knowledge."· You mean, does a human have to know
`
`17· ·something?· Does a computer program have to know?· Who
`
`18· ·has to know?
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Let's take one step.· Let's go one step up.
`
`20· · · · · · ·Is a debit network necessary to complete a
`
`21· ·transaction in the context of the '785 patent?
`
`22· · · · · · ·MR. GOLUB:· I have an objection as to the
`
`23· ·form.
`
`24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I have to go -- I have to
`
`25· ·go look at the claims to answer that.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 15 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. GORYUNOV:
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Go ahead.
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· I will.· Okay.· So in claim 1, there are
`
`·4· ·computer instructions that cause the computing system to
`
`·5· ·perform a method for processing a payment using a debit
`
`·6· ·network selected according to information embedded in a
`
`·7· ·scannable code.· So it has to perform a method for
`
`·8· ·processing a payment using a debit network.· So a debit
`
`·9· ·network's required by the claim.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· So then --
`
`11· · · · ·A.· And it's also required for claim 1's
`
`12· ·dependents 2 through 7.
`
`13· · · · · · ·Then in 8, that requires a hardware storage
`
`14· ·device containing instructions operable to do certain
`
`15· ·things.· And so one of the things it has to do is cause
`
`16· ·the computing system to process a payment using a debit
`
`17· ·network.
`
`18· · · · · · ·But because 8 is not a method claim -- it's a
`
`19· ·device claim -- it just has to be configured to process
`
`20· ·a payment using a debit network -- it doesn't have to
`
`21· ·actually do it -- because it's an apparatus claim.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· Right.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· And the same thing would be true of claim 8's
`
`24· ·dependents down through 14, so 9 through 14.
`
`25· · · · · · ·Then in claim 15, it's a method claim.· There
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 16 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·has to be a storage device with computer-executable
`
`·2· ·instructions operable by the one or more processors to
`
`·3· ·cause the computing system to process a payment using a
`
`·4· ·debit network.· So a debit network is required in
`
`·5· ·claim 15 and its dependents 16 through 21.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· So just a few moments ago, you testified that
`
`·7· ·a debit network is required by the claims; right?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· It's a literal requirement of the claims.
`
`·9· ·It's a requirement of the method claims.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· All right.· And the debit network in the
`
`11· ·claims is used to complete a transaction; correct?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· You mean --
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· In the claims.
`
`14· · · · ·A.· -- in normal usage would it be, or do the
`
`15· ·claims require it?
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· My question was, the debit network in the
`
`17· ·claims is used to complete a transaction; right?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· That's certainly the intention.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· So obviously fair to say that a
`
`20· ·debit network -- or, rather, which debit network will be
`
`21· ·used is relevant to completing this transaction in the
`
`22· ·claims.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· If a debit network is selected and the
`
`24· ·information in the request is correct, then the debit
`
`25· ·network's job is to process the transaction.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 17 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Do you have access to your
`
`·2· ·declaration?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I'm looking at it.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· Can you please go to paragraph 42
`
`·5· ·of your declaration.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. GOLUB:· Just a point of clarification,
`
`·7· ·Counsel.· The witness has two declarations in these
`
`·8· ·proceedings.· Can you be more specific with an exhibit
`
`·9· ·number?
`
`10· · · · · · ·MR. GORYUNOV:· Absolutely.
`
`11· ·BY MR. GORYUNOV:
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· Exhibit 2004, sir.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· Yes.· That's the one I'm looking at.
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. GORYUNOV:· Counsel, thanks for that
`
`15· ·clarification.
`
`16· ·BY MR. GORYUNOV:
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Dr. Shamos, I will be focusing on your
`
`18· ·Exhibit 2004 for purposes of this declaration.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· Me too.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· So paragraph 42, please, of your
`
`21· ·Exhibit 2004 declaration.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· Before we even get there, look at page 1 of
`
`24· ·Exhibit 2004, please.· That's the cover.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 18 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Do you see the caption "Declaration of Michael
`
`·2· ·I. Shamos, Ph.D."?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Is this the declaration that you submitted in
`
`·5· ·the proceeding involving the '785 patent?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Let's go to the very last page.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· I did that already to verify my signature.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· And that is in fact your
`
`10· ·signature; right?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· Always a pleasure to work with an attorney.
`
`13· · · · · · ·Go to paragraph 42, please.
`
`14· · · · ·A.· I'm sure it's not always, but I appreciate the
`
`15· ·compliment.
`
`16· · · · · · ·I'm at 42.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· All right.· So there's a sentence
`
`18· ·that straddles page 12 to 13.· I'll read it for you so
`
`19· ·you know where I am.· "A consumer may choose to pay for
`
`20· ·a purchase using a Visa debit card, but that does not
`
`21· ·necessarily mean that the merchant will send the
`
`22· ·transaction through Interlink, Visa's own network."
`
`23· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Please explain to me what you mean
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 19 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·here.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· I'm not sure what's unclear.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·It is possible to process a Visa -- let's
`
`·4· ·suppose I have a Visa debit card, Visa-branded debit
`
`·5· ·card.· It is not necessary for me to process debits
`
`·6· ·through Visa's own network.· I can process the
`
`·7· ·transaction through other networks.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· And do you know which other networks will
`
`·9· ·accept and process a Visa transaction, a debit
`
`10· ·transaction?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· I don't know them by name.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· All right.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· It's not actually a Visa transaction.· That's
`
`14· ·the point.· So what happens is that I have -- I go to my
`
`15· ·bank, and I say I want a debit card, and they say that's
`
`16· ·fine.· You've got to open an account with us because
`
`17· ·there has to be cash in your account in order for us to
`
`18· ·actually deduct the funds as you debit things.
`
`19· · · · · · ·So I set up an account.· And they're going to
`
`20· ·brand that -- they're going to give me a card that, for
`
`21· ·example, might be a Visa card.· And I may actually be
`
`22· ·able to use that card as a credit card, also, depending
`
`23· ·on whether I want a credit or a debit transaction.
`
`24· · · · · · ·And the bank that's offering me this account
`
`25· ·is undoubtedly associated with various card brands:
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 20 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·MasterCard, Visa, et cetera.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·And the particular transaction that I'm going
`
`·3· ·to engage in is a transaction between fundamentally the
`
`·4· ·merchant's bank and my bank.· The merchant's bank is
`
`·5· ·going to send this debit request.· My bank is going to
`
`·6· ·honor the debit request, and funds are ultimately going
`
`·7· ·to be deposited in the merchant's account in the
`
`·8· ·merchant's bank.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·Now, the question is, how does that
`
`10· ·information get from the merchant's bank to my bank?· It
`
`11· ·goes over some network.· And one convenient network is
`
`12· ·Visa's own network because it interconnects all banks
`
`13· ·that process Visa transactions.· But it's not the only
`
`14· ·network that makes those connections.
`
`15· · · · · · ·Visa essentially has nothing to do with the
`
`16· ·debit transaction.· It's between two banks.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Do you consider a cash advance a debit
`
`18· ·transaction as well?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· You mean a cash advance on a credit card?
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· Yes, sir.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· Do I consider that a debit
`
`22· ·transaction?
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· Yes, sir.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· No.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Why not?
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 21 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· Well, a debit transaction through a debit
`
`·2· ·network causes instantaneous debiting of money.· It's
`
`·3· ·subtracted from my account immediately.· Cash advance,
`
`·4· ·I'm going to get a bill for that at the end of the
`
`·5· ·month, and I'm going to have another month to pay my
`
`·6· ·credit card bill with cash advance.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· There's no bank account specified in a cash
`
`·9· ·advance.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· Got it.· Let's go to paragraph 73.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Okay.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· The very end of the sentence that is on
`
`13· ·page 30 refers to MasterCard Banknet.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· So earlier we were talking about MasterCard's
`
`17· ·Maestro network.
`
`18· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· How is that different from MasterCard Banknet,
`
`20· ·that you have in paragraph 73?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· I think it's a successor.· For many years it
`
`22· ·was called Banknet.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Let's go back to your
`
`24· ·paragraph 43, please.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I'm there.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 22 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Here you discuss the term "route."
`
`·2· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· All right.· And we agree that "route" is not a
`
`·5· ·vague term; correct?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· That's correct.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So you're not asking that the board or anyone
`
`·8· ·construe the term "route."
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· That's right.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· Now, when you're explaining in your
`
`11· ·paragraph 43 and 44 how you understand the word "route,"
`
`12· ·that is in the context of the '785 patent; right?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· You're not suggesting that this definition of
`
`15· ·"route" applies to literally every context where the
`
`16· ·word "route" may appear; right?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· Well, when you say "every context," you
`
`18· ·mean --
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Let me clarify that question.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· -- the word in the English language or with
`
`21· ·respect to payment networks or what?
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· I will try to come up with a better question.
`
`23· · · · · · ·All right.· Again, in your discussion in
`
`24· ·paragraph 43 and 44, are you suggesting that your
`
`25· ·definition and your understanding of the word "route" be
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 23 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·imported into the claims of the patent?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· No, because the word "route" does not appear
`
`·3· ·in the claims of the patent.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Let's go back to paragraph 73,
`
`·5· ·please, of your declaration.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I'm there.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· I'm actually looking at the two sentences that
`
`·8· ·are on page 31, the two sentences that are at the end of
`
`·9· ·paragraph 73.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· So the very last sentence, in fact, is you're
`
`12· ·saying that limitation 1.4.4 also requires an indication
`
`13· ·of which debit network is to be used to process the
`
`14· ·payment.
`
`15· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· How do you understand the word "indication"?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· First of all --
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Sorry.· Let me clarify the question.
`
`20· · · · · · ·How do you understand the word "indication" as
`
`21· ·used in limitation 1.4.4 of the '785 patent?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I have to go to limitation 1.4.4, and,
`
`23· ·unfortunately, in the claims index, there's no numbering
`
`24· ·of the limitations.· So I have to go do something about
`
`25· ·that.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 24 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· I think you have a designation of what you
`
`·2· ·consider to be 1.4.4 on page 30 of your declaration at
`
`·3· ·heading 1, dot.
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· Oh, good.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· It's before your paragraph 73.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Okay.· So it begins "the embedded
`
`·7· ·payment information including at least."
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Dot, dot, dot, "an indication of which debit
`
`·9· ·network is to be used to process the payment."
`
`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.· So that occurs in the limitation that
`
`11· ·begins with the words "receiving a scannable code with
`
`12· ·one or more portions of embedded payment information,
`
`13· ·the embedded payment information including at least the
`
`14· ·following: a total payment amount that is to be paid by
`
`15· ·a user, debit account information for the user, and an
`
`16· ·indication of which debit network is to be used to
`
`17· ·process the payment."
`
`18· · · · · · ·Okay.· So I think your question was, what is
`
`19· ·an indication?
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· Correct, sir.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· Okay.· So remembering that this embedded
`
`22· ·payment information is embedded in a scannable code.· So
`
`23· ·it's computer-readable data.· There has to be some datum
`
`24· ·in there that indicates which debit network is to be
`
`25· ·used to process the payment.· It's data.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 25 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· All right.· So are you -- all right.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·Well, I'm trying to get an idea of what you
`
`·3· ·mean by data that indicates which debit network is to be
`
`·4· ·used.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So are you referring to an actual name of a
`
`·6· ·debit network, like Maestro, Interlink, NYCE, or Star?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· Well, I'm not sure it has to be a name.· It's
`
`·8· ·conceivable that these networks can be identified by
`
`·9· ·network addresses.· They could be identified by numbers.
`
`10· ·They could be identified by strings.· I don't know.· The
`
`11· ·claim doesn't specify.· It just says there has to be an
`
`12· ·indication.
`
`13· · · · · · ·And the idea is that whatever is going to read
`
`14· ·this scannable code is going to have to be able to tell
`
`15· ·from that which debit network to use.· The claim does
`
`16· ·not specify the nature or structure of exactly how you
`
`17· ·specify that.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Let's move forward to your
`
`19· ·paragraph 77.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I'm there.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· So the second sentence in your paragraph 77
`
`22· ·refers to "limitation 1.4.4."
`
`23· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you say in paragraph 77 "As
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 26 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· ·explained above in connection with limitation 1.4.4, the
`
`·2· ·scannable code does not include a 'user preferred
`
`·3· ·network' (as opposed to a user's choice of debit card)."
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· That's in rebuttal to Dr. Houh's
`
`·6· ·paragraphs 101 to 113.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· That's fine.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· I don't mean that in the claim it doesn't
`
`·9· ·specify that.· I mean in the prior art that he adduced,
`
`10· ·it doesn't show that.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· My question is, where in limitation 1.4.4 is a
`
`12· ·user preferred network referenced?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· It's not in limitation 1.4.4.· It's in
`
`14· ·limitation 1.4.6.· I'm just referring back to my
`
`15· ·discussion associated with limitation 1.4.4 to explain
`
`16· ·why the scannable code doesn't include a user preferred
`
`17· ·network.· I'm not saying that user preferred network is
`
`18· ·in 1.4.4.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· All right.· So this is where I need your help,
`
`20· ·sir.
`
`21· · · · · · ·In 1.4.4, the only network that is referenced
`
`22· ·is debit network that is to be used to process the
`
`23· ·payment.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`Ex.1010 / IPR2022-01150 / Page 27 of 55
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido, Inc.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Are you saying that that debit network is a
`
`·2· ·user preferred network?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· No.· What I'm referring to is my discussion of
`
`·4· ·1.4.4, which extends from paragraph 73 all the way
`
`·5· ·through paragraph 76, and I'm making the distinction
`
`·6· ·between a choice of whether to use a debit card or not
`
`·7· ·and which specific debit network to use.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· All right.· And in your discussion of 1.4.4,
`
`·9· ·can you please point me to where you discuss user
`
`10· ·preferred network.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Okay.· So if you look in paragraph 74, the
`
`12· ·second sentence, "However, as discussed above in the
`
`13· ·summary of Easterly, there is no disclosure
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