APPL-1021 / IPR2022-01149 / Page 1 of 31
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido Corfire-Korea, Ltd.
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-01149
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 10,223,692
`·7· ·MOZIDO CORFIRE-KOREA, LTD.,· · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CM#52959.95R692
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
`15· · · · · · · · · MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS, PH.D.
`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`17· · · · · · · · · · · · JUNE 16, 2023
`18
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`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`· · ·CSR 7882
`25· ·No. 23-125300
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-01149
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 10,223,692
`·7· ·MOZIDO CORFIRE-KOREA, LTD.,· · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· CM#52959.95R692
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS,
`15· · · · · · ·PH.D., a witness herein, taken on
`16· · · · · · ·behalf of the Petitioner via Zoom
`17· · · · · · ·videoconference at 7:03 a.m. on
`18· · · · · · ·Friday, June 16, 2023, before
`19· · · · · · ·Colleen M. Peterman, CSR 7882.
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`Page 3
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES (All Participants Appeared Remotely):
`·2
`· · ·For Petitioner:
`·3
`· · · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`·4· · · · · · BY JONATHAN R. BOWSER
`· · · · · · · 800 17th Street NW, Suite 500
`·5· · · · · · Washington, DC 20006
`· · · · · · · 202.654.4500
`·6· · · · · · jonathan.bowser@haynesboone.com
`·7· · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`· · · · · · · BY BROOKE COHEN
`·8· · · · · · 6000 Headquarters Drive, Suite 200
`· · · · · · · Plano, Texas 75024
`·9· · · · · · 972.739.6900
`· · · · · · · brooke.cohen@haynesboone.com
`10
`11· ·For Patent Owner:
`12· · · · · · VOLPE KOENIG
`· · · · · · · BY BRANDON R. THEISS
`13· · · · · · 30 South 17th Street, Suite 1800
`· · · · · · · Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
`14· · · · · · 215.568.6400
`· · · · · · · btheiss@vklaw.com
`15
`· · · · · · · KASOWITZ BENSON TORRES LLP
`16· · · · · · BY CHEN "ALEXANDRA" JIA
`· · · · · · · 333 Twin Dolphin Drive, Suite 200
`17· · · · · · Redwood Shores, California 94065
`· · · · · · · 650.453.5170
`18· · · · · · 650.453.5171 Fax
`· · · · · · · cjia@kasowitz.com
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS:· MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. BOWSER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
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`·5· ·MR. THEISS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 77
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·9· ·PETITIONER'S· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · PAGE
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`10· · · · · · · · · · ·(No Exhibits Marked)
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`APPL-1021 / IPR2022-01149 / Page 2 of 31
`Apple Inc. v. Mozido Corfire-Korea, Ltd.
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · JUNE 16, 2023
`·3
`·4· · · · · · · · · MICHAEL IAN SHAMOS, PH.D.,
`·5· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
`·6· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
`·7· · · · · · · · · AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
`·8
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`10
`11· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
`12· · · · ·Q.· Good morning, Dr. Shamos.
`13· · · · ·A.· Good morning.
`14· · · · ·Q.· My name is Jonathan Bowser, and I am counsel
`15· ·for the petitioner.· I will be asking you questions
`16· ·today about your declaration, which is Exhibit 2004, in
`17· ·IPR2022-01149.
`18· · · · · · ·Can you please state your full name for the
`19· ·record.
`20· · · · ·A.· Michael Ian, I-A-N, Shamos, S-H-A-M-O-S.
`21· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.· Before we get started, I
`22· ·want to just cover some housekeeping items.
`23· · · · · · ·So if I refer to, quote, "this IPR
`24· ·proceeding," will you understand that I'm referring to
`25· ·IPR2022-01149?
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And this IPR proceeding involves
`·3· ·U.S. Patent No. 10,223,692, which is Exhibit 1001.
`·4· · · · · · ·If I refer to the "'692 patent," will you
`·5· ·understand that I'm referring to U.S. Patent
`·6· ·No. 10,223,692?
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Is there any reason why you would not be able
`·9· ·to answer my questions today fully, accurately, and
`10· ·honestly?
`11· · · · ·A.· No.
`12· · · · ·Q.· Do you understand that during today's
`13· ·deposition, you are under oath and providing sworn
`14· ·testimony just as if you were in court?
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`16· · · · ·Q.· If you don't understand any of my questions,
`17· ·please let me know.· If you answer my question, I will
`18· ·assume that you understood my question.
`19· · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`20· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`21· · · · ·Q.· Your counsel may object to questions
`22· ·throughout this deposition.· Unless your counsel
`23· ·instructs you not to answer a specific question, you are
`24· ·required to answer my question.
`25· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· The court reporter will prepare a transcript
`·3· ·of this deposition today.· To ensure that we obtain a
`·4· ·clear record of this deposition, please answer each
`·5· ·question with a full verbal response, such as "yes" or
`·6· ·"no."· Please do not answer with verbal gesticulations
`·7· ·like "uh-huh" or head movements.
`·8· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
`·9· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`10· · · · ·Q.· And, also, to ensure a clear record, I ask
`11· ·that you let me finish my question before you provide an
`12· ·answer, and I will do the same.· The court reporter may
`13· ·have difficulties accurately recording who is speaking
`14· ·when there is cross talk.
`15· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`17· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.· During the portion of this
`18· ·deposition where I'm asking you questions, you are not
`19· ·permitted to speak with your counsel about the substance
`20· ·of your testimony, including your declaration and
`21· ·deposition.
`22· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`24· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· We'll plan to take a break after each
`25· ·hour-long period of questioning.· If you need a break
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`Page 8
`·1· ·before then, please let me know.· But before we can take
`·2· ·a break, I ask that you please answer my question so
`·3· ·that we can ensure an accurate record.
`·4· · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· For timing purposes, what time zone are
`·7· ·you in today?
`·8· · · · ·A.· Eastern.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Where are you located today?
`10· · · · ·A.· Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
`11· · · · ·Q.· And are you alone in -- it looks like you're
`12· ·in an office.
`13· · · · · · ·Are you alone in that office?
`14· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`15· · · · ·Q.· So do you have a phone with you?
`16· · · · ·A.· I possess one.· I have a cell phone here,
`17· ·that's turned off, and I have a landline phone next to
`18· ·me.
`19· · · · ·Q.· So absent an emergency, do you agree not to
`20· ·use your phone during the questioning portion of today
`21· ·for any reason?
`22· · · · ·A.· Pretty much.· I mean I'm not going to --
`23· ·certainly not going to use my cell phone.· It's
`24· ·conceivable that my other phone may ring.· It may be my
`25· ·wife.· I may have to answer it.· I don't know.
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`APPL-1021 / IPR2022-01149 / Page 3 of 31
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`Page 9
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any chat windows open where you
`·2· ·are communicating with counsel of patent owner?
`·3· · · · ·A.· No.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Throughout this deposition, I will be sharing
`·5· ·exhibits and other documents with you in the chat
`·6· ·window.· To ensure a clear record, I will indicate what
`·7· ·exhibit or document I am uploading, and I ask that you
`·8· ·please confirm that you downloaded that exhibit or
`·9· ·document.
`10· · · · · · ·Okay?
`11· · · · ·A.· Is that necessary?· I have all of the
`12· ·documents that have been filed in the IPR already.· So
`13· ·this would mean making duplicate copies of them.
`14· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you have -- are those electronic
`15· ·copies or paper copies?
`16· · · · ·A.· Electronic.· I got them from the PTAB website.
`17· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And do those documents that you have
`18· ·have any notes on them?
`19· · · · ·A.· No.· They're from the PTAB website.
`20· · · · ·Q.· But you didn't add any notes to the documents.
`21· · · · ·A.· No.· They're all PDFs.
`22· · · · ·Q.· So you can use those documents, and I won't
`23· ·upload any of the other documents.
`24· · · · · · ·Is that all right?
`25· · · · ·A.· Perfectly.
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`Page 10
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So as I mentioned, I will be asking you
`·2· ·questions about your declaration.· This is Exhibit 2004.
`·3· · · · · · ·If I refer to "your declaration," will you
`·4· ·understand that I'm referring to Exhibit 2004?
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Can you please open Exhibit 2004, your
`·7· ·declaration.
`·8· · · · ·A.· I have it open.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I will ordinarily refer to paragraph
`10· ·numbers in your declaration.
`11· · · · ·A.· It's more convenient that way because there
`12· ·are far more paragraph numbers than there are page
`13· ·numbers.
`14· · · · ·Q.· Yes.· I agree.· But this time, there's one
`15· ·exception.· I'm going to ask you to turn to numbered
`16· ·page 59, which is PDF page 63.
`17· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`18· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let me know when you're there.
`19· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
`20· · · · ·Q.· Is that your signature?
`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`22· · · · ·Q.· And you signed your declaration on March 30,
`23· ·2023; correct?
`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`25· · · · ·Q.· Did you prepare the first draft of your
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`Page 11
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`·1· ·declaration?
`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· Did you prepare -- strike that.
`·4· · · · · · ·When you prepared the first draft of your
`·5· ·declaration, did it include all the sections that are
`·6· ·currently contained in your declaration?
`·7· · · · ·A.· My recollection is yes.· So my target when I
`·8· ·do a first draft is that it's 95 percent complete.· So I
`·9· ·don't leave missing sections.· So my recollection is all
`10· ·the sections were there.
`11· · · · ·Q.· So I will be asking you about other exhibits
`12· ·and documents in this IPR proceeding.· I'd ask that you
`13· ·please keep Exhibit 1004 open at all times.
`14· · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`15· · · · ·A.· 2004?
`16· · · · ·Q.· I'm sorry.· What did I say?
`17· · · · ·A.· I thought you said 1004.
`18· · · · ·Q.· I apologize.· Yes.· 2004.
`19· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`20· · · · ·Q.· Can you please turn to paragraph 1.
`21· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
`22· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· In paragraph 1, you indicate that you
`23· ·have been retained as an expert witness by patent owner
`24· ·Mozido CorFire-Korea, in parentheses, Mozido or patent
`25· ·owner; is that right?
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`Page 12
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· And if I refer to "patent owner" during this
`·3· ·deposition, will you understand that I'm referring to
`·4· ·Mozido CorFire-Korea?
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Were you retained by counsel for patent owner?
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· So you were not retained directly by the
`·9· ·patent owner; is that right?
`10· · · · ·A.· That's right.
`11· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Have you spoken with any employee or
`12· ·representative of the patent owner other than counsel in
`13· ·this IPR proceeding?
`14· · · · ·A.· No.
`15· · · · ·Q.· Did you have any relationship with the patent
`16· ·owner prior to being retained by counsel in this IPR
`17· ·proceeding?
`18· · · · ·A.· No.· I had never heard of them.
`19· · · · ·Q.· And in paragraph 2, you indicate that you
`20· ·previously submitted a declaration in this IPR
`21· ·proceeding that you referred to as the, quote, initial
`22· ·declaration, which is Exhibit 2001; correct?
`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`24· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· When you say that you incorporate the
`25· ·initial declaration by reference, does that mean that
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`APPL-1021 / IPR2022-01149 / Page 4 of 31
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`Page 13
`·1· ·your current declaration, Exhibit 2004, adopts all the
`·2· ·positions you took in your prior declaration?
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes, unless I take a position in this
`·4· ·declaration that's inconsistent with the previous
`·5· ·position.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· In your current declaration, which I'll just
`·7· ·call your declaration, have you indicated at all that
`·8· ·you have taken any position inconsistent with something
`·9· ·in your initial declaration?
`10· · · · ·A.· I think so.· So, for example, in claim
`11· ·construction, I propose a term that was not discussed in
`12· ·the previous -- in the previous declaration because it
`13· ·contained an error that I didn't even spot until I did
`14· ·this declaration.
`15· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.· I won't be asking you about
`16· ·2001 today, but I just want to make clear that when I
`17· ·refer to your declaration, I'm referring to Exhibit
`18· ·2004, and not Exhibit 2001.
`19· · · · · · ·Is that understood?
`20· · · · ·A.· Yes.· We've agreed to that already.
`21· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· What is your current occupation?
`22· · · · ·A.· I'm a faculty member at Carnegie Mellon
`23· ·University in Pittsburgh.
`24· · · · ·Q.· Can you turn to paragraph 14, please.
`25· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
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`Page 14
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· In paragraph 14 you indicate that you are
`·2· ·licensed to practice law in Pennsylvania and that you
`·3· ·are admitted to the patent bar; correct?
`·4· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Are you offering testimony today as a legal
`·6· ·expert?
`·7· · · · ·A.· No.· I think if you read the next two
`·8· ·sentences of paragraph 14, it explains that.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you're only offering testimony today
`10· ·as a technical expert; correct?
`11· · · · ·A.· It depends on what question you ask me.· If
`12· ·you ask me a legal question and I know the answer, I'll
`13· ·answer it.
`14· · · · ·Q.· Do you practice as a patent attorney?
`15· · · · ·A.· No.· I don't maintain a law office.· So it's
`16· ·not safe for me to engage in patent matters.· I do give
`17· ·informal advice to colleagues at the university, but I
`18· ·do not have clients.
`19· · · · ·Q.· Approximately when was the last time that you
`20· ·practiced as a patent attorney?
`21· · · · ·A.· Well, I was -- the last time I practiced full
`22· ·time as a patent attorney was in 1997.· I don't recall
`23· ·if I took on any matters after leaving the Webb Law
`24· ·Firm, which was in 19- --
`25· · · · ·Q.· I apologize.· Continue.
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`Page 15
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`·1· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· It was my fault.· I broke the
`·2· ·answer into two parts.
`·3· · · · · · ·I left the Webb Law Firm, W-E-B-B, in 1997 to
`·4· ·come back to Carnegie Mellon University.
`·5· · · · ·Q.· And were you employed as an attorney at the
`·6· ·Webb Law Firm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania?
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes, from 1990 to 1997.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Who did you meet with to prepare for your
`·9· ·deposition today?
`10· · · · ·A.· I met with counsel.
`11· · · · ·Q.· Do you recall which counsel?
`12· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I met with Mr. Theiss.
`13· · · · ·Q.· Did you meet with any other counsel?
`14· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I met with one of his partners.
`15· · · · ·Q.· Do you remember who that was?
`16· · · · ·A.· Sure.· Just a second.· I'm looking it up.· Get
`17· ·the full name correct.· Dan Golub.
`18· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.
`19· · · · ·A.· And I met with --
`20· · · · ·Q.· Can you turn to --
`21· · · · ·A.· I met with --
`22· · · · ·Q.· Sorry.· I apologize.
`23· · · · ·A.· -- Alexandra, Chen, also.
`24· · · · ·Q.· Can you turn to paragraph 19, please.
`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I'm there.
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· And above paragraph 19 is the header
`·2· ·"Materials Considered"; right?
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· In the first bullet point, you say that
`·5· ·you considered all materials filed in this IPR to date;
`·6· ·correct?
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· I'm assuming "to date" here means up to the
`·9· ·point that you signed your declaration; is that right?
`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`11· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in the first bullet point, again,
`12· ·it says "All materials filed in this IPR to date."
`13· · · · · · ·Does that mean that you considered all
`14· ·exhibits cited in the petition?
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`16· · · · ·Q.· And does "All materials filed in this IPR to
`17· ·date" mean that you considered all the documents cited
`18· ·in Dr. Houh's declaration, Exhibit 1003?
`19· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`20· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I just want to clarify something for
`21· ·the record.· Sorry.· I just caught this.
`22· · · · · · ·In paragraph 20, second line from the bottom,
`23· ·it looks like there's a typo.· It says "'386 patent."
`24· · · · · · ·I think you mean there '692 patent; is that
`25· ·right?
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`Page 17
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`·1· · · · ·A.· You're right.· It's a typo, and I didn't
`·2· ·realize it until just now.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· No worries.· Just clarifying the record here.
`·4· · · · · · ·So can you turn to paragraph 49, please.
`·5· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And above paragraph 49, there is a
`·7· ·heading that says "Claim Construction"; correct?
`·8· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in paragraph 49, you indicate that,
`10· ·quote, "I believe that the plain and ordinary meanings
`11· ·of certain terms used in the Patent need to be construed
`12· ·expressly, as there appears to be a difference of
`13· ·opinion between Petitioner and Patent Owner as to those
`14· ·plain and ordinary meanings"; is that right?
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`16· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And then in paragraphs -- beginning
`17· ·after paragraph 49 -- and you can scroll through --
`18· ·going all the way down to paragraph 69, you provide your
`19· ·explanation of what the plain and ordinary meaning is
`20· ·for three sets of terms; is that right?
`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`22· · · · ·Q.· And those terms, just to cover these briefly,
`23· ·are above paragraph 50.
`24· · · · · · ·You can see there's a table with "temporary
`25· ·card"/"temporary payment card"; correct?
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`Page 18
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· And above -- or let's say below paragraph 51,
`·3· ·there is a table containing the plain and ordinary
`·4· ·meaning constructions for the screen terms; is that
`·5· ·right?
`·6· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And then beginning above paragraph 68, there
`·8· ·is the claim term moving the mobile payment card a first
`·9· ·distance from the first portion of the screen towards
`10· ·the second portion of the touchscreen; is that right?
`11· · · · ·A.· If you read something incorrectly, do you want
`12· ·me to correct you?
`13· · · · ·Q.· Yes, please.
`14· · · · · · ·Did I read something incorrectly?
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.· There are two uses of the word "a" in
`16· ·that quotation.· The second one you replaced with a
`17· ·"the."· You said "towards the second portion of the
`18· ·touchscreen" instead of "a second portion."
`19· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you for catching that.
`20· · · · · · ·We'll get to these individual constructions in
`21· ·more detail, but I just wanted to confirm that you are
`22· ·explaining, in your view, what the plain and ordinary
`23· ·meaning of these three terms are; is that right?
`24· · · · ·A.· I'm not sure that C is really plain and
`25· ·ordinary -- it says plain and ordinary meaning.· I think
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`Page 19
`·1· ·it's the plain and ordinary meaning in the context of
`·2· ·the patent.
`·3· · · · · · ·For example, if I walked out into the street
`·4· ·and talked to a computer scientist and gave him that
`·5· ·term, he might come up with something different because
`·6· ·he hadn't read the patent.· But it is the plain and
`·7· ·ordinary meaning in the context of the patent.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And your explanation of the plain and
`·9· ·ordinary meanings of these three terms is under the
`10· ·heading "Claim Construction" above paragraph 49; right?
`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`12· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Can you turn back to the portion of
`13· ·your declaration that is titled "Legal Principles" above
`14· ·paragraph 24.
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I'm there.
`16· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And above paragraph 24, you see there's
`17· ·a heading that says "Legal Principles"; is that right?
`18· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`19· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in paragraph 24, you indicate,
`20· ·quote, "Counsel for Patent Owner has informed me of the
`21· ·legal principles that apply in this proceeding."
`22· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`24· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in paragraphs 25 to 31, you explain
`25· ·your understanding of the legal principles that apply in
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`Page 20
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`·1· ·this proceeding; is that right?
`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· In paragraphs 25 to 31, do you explain your
`·4· ·understanding of claim construction principles?
`·5· · · · ·A.· No.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· What is your understanding then of when claim
`·7· ·terms should be construed?
`·8· · · · ·A.· Well, that's an interesting question.· Claim
`·9· ·terms should be construed when there's a difference of
`10· ·opinion between what the claims mean.· Claim terms
`11· ·should be construed typically when the patentee has
`12· ·acted as his own lexicographer.
`13· · · · · · ·If a term is being used in a way that is
`14· ·contrary to its plain and ordinary meaning, then it
`15· ·normally requires construction.· The board believes that
`16· ·the construction is only necessary to the extent needed
`17· ·for them to render their opinion in this particular IPR.
`18· ·So it's different from litigation.
`19· · · · ·Q.· So is it your understanding that if the
`20· ·parties dispute a particular term, then the parties may
`21· ·construe that term?
`22· · · · ·A.· Well, the parties may propose constructions
`23· ·for those terms.· And if those terms are relevant to the
`24· ·board's decision on patentability, then presumably the
`25· ·board will weigh in and decide the construction.
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`Page 21
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So going back to paragraph 49 again,
`·2· ·please.
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· And you've provided testimony on claim
`·5· ·construction; is that right?
`·6· · · · ·A.· I've provided testimony on what a person of
`·7· ·ordinary skill in the art would take the plain and
`·8· ·ordinary meaning of the terms to be.
`·9· · · · ·Q.· So in paragraph 49, if you go to the first
`10· ·sentence, and let's talk about the first clause.· I just
`11· ·want to understand how you're using these terms.
`12· · · · · · ·You're saying that "the plain and ordinary
`13· ·meanings of certain terms used in the Patent need to be
`14· ·construed expressly."
`15· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`17· · · · ·Q.· So why do you use the word "construed" when
`18· ·you're referring to the plain and ordinary meaning?
`19· · · · ·A.· Because the construction -- the plain and
`20· ·ordinary meaning does not work if the two parties
`21· ·believe that the plain and ordinary meanings are
`22· ·different.· And so it's necessary to write out what the
`23· ·plain and ordinary meaning is.
`24· · · · · · ·So -- and this often happens.· The parties
`25· ·agree that a term has its plain and ordinary meaning,
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`Page 22
`·1· ·and if such a plain and ordinary meaning exists, then
`·2· ·the parties ought to be able to agree on what that
`·3· ·meaning is and write it down.· And if they're not able
`·4· ·to agree on it, that means that somebody is going to
`·5· ·have to do claim construction, either the board or a
`·6· ·judge in a civil case.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So if the parties can't agree to a plain and
`·8· ·ordinary meaning, does that then become an express claim
`·9· ·construction?
`10· · · · ·A.· If the board construes the term, then it does.
`11· ·Then it becomes an express construction.
`12· · · · ·Q.· And you're providing testimony that certain
`13· ·terms need to be construed expressly, as you've said in
`14· ·paragraph 49; right?
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.· That's my belief.
`16· · · · ·Q.· In the claim construction section of your
`17· ·declaration -- we talked about this being paragraphs 49
`18· ·to, I believe, paragraph 67 -- did you come up with
`19· ·those constructions yourself?
`20· · · · ·A.· Let me look.· Well, I'm not sure who the
`21· ·originator was.· I think it was me, but I certainly had
`22· ·discussion with counsel over what the terms meant.
`23· · · · ·Q.· Let's turn to your first construction,
`24· ·starting at the top of page 16, under the header A,
`25· ·"temporary card"/"temporary payment card."
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`Page 23
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`·1· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.· So I'm more comfortable with the phrase
`·3· ·"proposed construction."· I'm not construing the terms.
`·4· ·What I'm doing is testifying as to what I believe a
`·5· ·person of ordinary skill in the art would understand the
`·6· ·terms to mean.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I will do my best to use the term
`·8· ·"proposed constructions."
`·9· · · · · · ·So we're at the paragraph above paragraph 50;
`10· ·is that right?
`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`12· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And you propose to construe in the '692
`13· ·patent the terms "temporary card" and "temporary payment
`14· ·card" synonymously.
`15· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`17· · · · ·Q.· To keep these easy, can we assume for purposes
`18· ·of this deposition that the patent uses the term
`19· ·"temporary card" as a shorthand for the term "temporary
`20· ·payment card"?
`21· · · · ·A.· We can.· I believe the patent does it that
`22· ·way.· Yes.
`23· · · · ·Q.· And in paragraph 50, the second sentence says
`24· ·"As explained above, a 'temporary payment card' is one
`25· ·that can be used only for a 'payable time,' after which
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`Page 24
`·1· ·the 'main payment card' is used unless another temporary
`·2· ·payment card is selected."
`·3· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·4· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·5· · · · ·Q.· In paragraph 50, the sentence that we just
`·6· ·read, the second sentence in paragraph 50, you start
`·7· ·that sentence with "As explained above."
`·8· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·9· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`10· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Are you referring to your explanation
`11· ·of the plain and ordinary meaning in the table above
`12· ·paragraph 50 when you say "As explained above"?
`13· · · · ·A.· No.· I'm referring to the summary of the '692
`14· ·patent, which begins at paragraph 37.· There's no
`15· ·explanation in the table.· The table is just giving the
`16· ·proposed construction.· The explanation begins at
`17· ·paragraph 37, which -- and most of those paragraphs talk
`18· ·about what a temporary payment card is.
`19· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So paragraph 50 is referring back to
`20· ·the summary of the '692 patent section of your
`21· ·declaration; is that right?
`22· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`23· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let's go there.· Let's start with
`24· ·paragraph 37.· Well, okay.
`25· · · · · · ·But just for the record, above paragraph 37 is
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`Page 25
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`·1· ·the heading "Summary of the '692 Patent"; is that
`·2· ·correct?
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And let's look through this section
`·5· ·quickly.
`·6· · · · · · ·So in paragraphs 37 to 46, that looks to be
`·7· ·your explanation of the summary of the '692 patent; is
`·8· ·that right?
`·9· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`10· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in paragraph 47, that's your
`11· ·analysis of paragraph 30 of Dr. Houh's declaration,
`12· ·rather than the summary of the '692 patent; is that
`13· ·right?
`14· · · · ·A.· Well, it's an analysis.· It's a comment on
`15· ·paragraph 30 of the Houh declaration.· It's possible
`16· ·that there are other comments on the Houh declaration on
`17· ·that paragraph later in the -- later in the declaration.
`18· ·So I don't want to say that that's my exclusive response
`19· ·to paragraph 30.
`20· · · · · · ·But the reason that it's in the summary of the
`21· ·patent section is it justifies my explanation for what a
`22· ·temporary payment card is and how I don't believe that
`23· ·Dr. Houh is using the plain and ordinary meaning.
`24· · · · ·Q.· So would it be accurate to say then that
`25· ·paragraphs 37 to 46 contain your summary of the '692
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`Page 27
`·1· ·problem section, and the technical solution section in
`·2· ·columns 1 and 2 of the '692 patent; is that right?
`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· So paragraph 38.· If you could turn there,
`·5· ·please.
`·6· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And the last sentence before the block
`·8· ·quote in paragraph 38, it reads "A 'temporary payment
`·9· ·card,' according to the Patent, is one that is only
`10· ·valid for a 'payable time.'"
`11· · · · · · ·Did I say that right?
`12· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`13· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So in the phrase "only valid for a
`14· ·'payable time'" in paragraph 38, do you consider the
`15· ·word "only" as creating a condition on when the
`16· ·temporary payment card is valid?
`17· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· I need you to repeat the question.
`18· ·I wasn't -- from the first part of the question, I
`19· ·wasn't expecting the second part.· So I missed it.
`20· · · · ·Q.· Excuse me.· So the phrase "only valid for a
`21· ·'payable time,'" do you see that in paragraph 38?
`22· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`23· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Do you consider the word "only" in that
`24· ·phrase to create a condition on when the temporary
`25· ·payment card is valid?
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`Page 26
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`·1· ·patent?· Is that right?
`·2· · · · ·A.· Well, yeah.· So the idea of my summary.
`·3· ·There's clearly more in the patent than I've summarized
`·4· ·here.· But it is a summary of what I think are the
`·5· ·salient points of the '692 patent for the purposes of
`·6· ·this proceeding.· I may have references to the patent
`·7· ·elsewhere, also, in the declaration.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Let's look through paragraphs 37 to 46, and I
`·9· ·want to just confirm which portions that you've cited.
`10· · · · · · ·If you would please scroll through paragraphs
`11· ·37 to 46 and confirm my understanding that you have
`12· ·cited portions of the '692 patent beginning at column 1,
`13· ·line 24 -- that's in paragraph 37 -- and continuing
`14· ·until column 2, line 31, in paragraph 45; is that right?
`15· · · · ·A.· Well, I think if what you're asking is are
`16· ·all -- is all the material that I cite from the patent
`17· ·in this section in columns 1 and 2, that appears to be
`18· ·correct.
`19· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Can you please open up the '692 patent,
`20· ·please.
`21· · · · ·A.· I have it.
`22· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And those portions that you've cited in
`23· ·paragraphs 37 to 46, which are column 1, line 24, to
`24· ·column 2, line 31, of the '692 patent, those sections
`25· ·appear to be the background art section, the technical
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Well, I guess we have to understand what
`·2· ·"valid" means.· "Valid" means usable in a transaction.
`·3· ·So, for example, when I pay for something with my
`·4· ·American Express card, my MasterCard does not become
`·5· ·invalid.· It's just not usable for that transaction.
`·6· · · · · · ·And so yes, it is a condition, because that
`·7· ·comes from the word "temporary."· It's temporary because
`·8· ·it can only be used for a certain time.· It's just the
`·9· ·very meaning of "temporary."
`10· · · · ·Q.· And that condition is that the temporary
`11· ·payment card is valid only when there's a payable time;
`12· ·right?
`13· · · · ·A.· Well, that's what it means.· The payable time
`14· ·is the time within which you can use the card.
`15· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So let's go to paragraph 39, please.
`16· · · · ·A.· Okay.
`17· · · · ·Q.· And in the first sentence you say "The Patent
`18· ·discloses the concept of a 'payable time,' which is a
`19· ·time period within which the temporary card may be
`20· ·used."
`21· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`22· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· That's what I just said.
`23· · · · ·Q.· And in paragraph 38, you reproduce column 1,
`24· ·lines 49 to 57.· And in paragraph 39, you cite to
`25· ·column 2, lines 6 to 8.
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`Page 29
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`·1· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· Are those the portions of the specification
`·4· ·that you're relying on to support your proposed
`·5· ·construction that a temporary payment card is only valid
`·6· ·for a payable time?
`·7· · · · ·A.· Well, I'm relying on them.· I don't know if
`·8· ·it's the only thing I rely on because I have
`·9· ·explanations elsewhere in the declaration that I may
`10· ·cite to other parts of the patent.
`11· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So let's go back to paragraph 50 again,
`12· ·please.
`13· · · · ·A.·