Transcript of Christopher
`Schmandt
`
`Date: February 16, 2023
`Case: Meta Platforms, Inc. -v- AlmondNet, Inc., et al. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888-433-3767
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`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`AlmondNet, Inc.
`IPR2022-01064
`Ex. 2005
`Page 1 of 103
`
`
`Schmandt
`
`Date: February 16, 2023
`Case: Meta Platforms, Inc. -v- AlmondNet, Inc., et al. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`AlmondNet, Inc.
`IPR2022-01064
`Ex. 2005
`Page 1 of 103
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` __________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` __________________________
` META PLATFORMS, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` ALMONDNET, INC. AND INTENT IQ, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` ___________________________
` Case No.: IPR2022-01064
` Patent 9,830,615
` ___________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
` Conducted Virtually
` Thursday, February 16, 2023
` 12:05 p.m. EST
`
`Job No.: 481824
`Pages: 1 - 77
`Reported by: Monique Vouthouris, CCR, RPR, CRR
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` DEPOSITION OF CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
`pursuant to notice, conducted virtually via Zoom
`Videoconference, before Monique Vouthouris, Certified
`Court Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
`Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and
`for the States of New Jersey and New York.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER, META PLATFORMS, INC.:
` ANDREW MACE, ESQ.
` COOLEY LLP
` 3175 Hanover Street
` Palo Alto, California 94304
` 650.843.5000
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER,
`ALMONDNET, INC. AND INTENT IQ, LLC:
` JAMES A. MILKEY, ESQ.
` RUSS, AUGUST & KABAT
` 12424 Wilshire Boulevard
` Suite 1200
` Los Angeles, California 90025
` 310.826.7474
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT PAGE
` By Mr. Milkey 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (No exhibits marked.)
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT,
`being first duly sworn or affirmed by the Notary,
`testifies as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MILKEY:
` Q So, Mr. Schmandt, you understand that this
`is an IPR proceeding challenging the validity of U.S.
`Patent No. 9,830,615?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Okay. And is it fair to refer to that
`patent as the '615 patent today?
` A Sure. That's how I do.
` Q Okay.
` A I trust you that the high order digits were
`correct. As soon as you got to '615 we're on the
`same page.
` Q So you submitted a declaration in this
`proceeding; correct?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q And do you have a copy of that declaration
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`with you today?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Is that a physical copy?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q Are there any markings in that copy or any
`notes?
` A No, there's not. It's clean.
` Q And what was the purpose of the declaration
`that you submitted in this proceeding?
` A Well, the purpose of the declaration was to
`support a petition to the PTAB, patent trademark and
`appeal board is I think what that acronym stands for,
`in support of a petition challenging the validity of
`the '615 patent.
` Q And how long did you spend preparing your
`opinions to set forth in your declaration?
` A I can't remember. I would have to go back
`and look at my -- my daily logs. That was, what?
`Eight months ago. I can't remember.
` Q Do you have a rough estimate of how long?
` A 20, 30 hours, maybe more. It's just off
`the top of my head and, you know, I'm under oath, so
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`I can't say that those are correct numbers.
` Q What materials did you review in
`preparation for writing your declaration?
` A Various and sundry, most of which is noted
`in the exhibits.
` Q Okay. So if you turn to your declaration,
`at paragraph 9 that has a list of materials
`considered on the following page. Do you see that?
` A List, page 9, they're numbered --
` Q It's a -- sorry. It's paragraph 9 and
`then --
` A Oh, paragraph 9. Yes. Okay. The table is
`on page 8, and, yes, paragraph 9, yes. I'm there.
` Q Okay. So paragraph 9 states that you read
`and considered the '615 patent and its prosecution
`history, and then you also cited to the documents in
`the chart below. Is that a complete list of the
`documents that you reviewed in forming your opinions?
` A Those are the documents that I relied on.
`I can't recall what else I may or may not have looked
`at.
` Q Okay. So you say that you read and
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`considered the '615 patent and its prosecution
`history. What are you referring to by the
`prosecution history of the '615 patent?
` A Well, that's not a term I invented. I
`think that's a term that you lawyers use. But it's
`basically the correspondence between the applicant or
`their representative and the PTO, specifically an
`examiner, and that includes the initial filing and
`the transmittal of fees, maybe an IDS, office actions
`from the examiner, and responses and amendments from
`the applicant or their representative.
` Q And is it your understanding that the
`prosecution history of the '615 patent is included in
`Exhibit 1013 in this proceeding?
` A Yeah, I believe it is. I said it was here
`in this document.
` Q Did you review the prosecution history of
`any other patents in forming your opinions in this
`proceeding?
` A Not with this particular one, no.
` Q And is your declaration complete?
` A To the best of my knowledge.
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` Q Have you formed any opinions related to
`this proceeding that are not set forth in your
`declaration?
` A No.
` Q And separate from preparing your
`declaration, how long did you spend preparing for the
`deposition today?
` A 10, 11 hours, plus or minus 20 percent.
` Q And what did you review in preparation for
`today's deposition?
` A I reviewed, well, these documents. I
`reviewed my declaration. Actually, not just those
`documents. I reviewed those -- I reviewed my
`declaration, of course. But I also reviewed the
`POPR, the patent owner preliminary response. I
`reviewed the decision, the decision letter from the
`PTAB. I also reviewed the '615 patent and the pieces
`of art which make up the grounds of my opinion.
` Q Okay. So your theories of invalidity
`regarding the '615 patent include two grounds. Is
`that right?
` A Yes, that's correct.
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` Q And if we go to page 20 -- page 23 of your
`declaration, you'll see that there's a chart there
`that sets forth those two grounds. Do you see that?
` A Hang on. I'm not there yet.
` Yes, that's correct.
` Q And the first ground involves combining
`Meyer with four other -- sorry. Strike that.
` The first ground involves combining Meyer
`with three other references. Is that right?
` A That's correct.
` Q And is it your opinion that Meyer
`anticipates any challenged claim of the '651 patent?
` A No. My analysis is an obviousness one
`based on a combination of Meyer with those pieces of
`art that we just discussed.
` Q Do you know how many different
`modifications a person of skill in the art would have
`needed to make to Meyer in order to arrive at claim 9
`of the '615 patent?
` A So Meyer is -- Meyer does not -- what
`should I say -- Meyer does not disclose financial
`method or details or motivation. I shouldn't say
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`motivation. It doesn't indicate how different
`parties may be paid for providing these services.
`But, of course, advertising is, in essence, money,
`and is actually at the root of a lot of the
`technology that we use, as we all well know.
` And so a person would need to understand
`how the various components of Meyer could be
`monetized. And the additional references which I
`have provided indicate basically how this was
`ordinarily done in terms of electronic advertisement
`and particular techniques in order to achieve the
`financial remuneration model.
` So it's really in addition -- it's not
`really a change to Meyer. It's adding on to Meyer a
`monetization technique which would be informed by
`common practice and particular details of how one
`could do this with an electronic auction.
` Q Okay. So other than techniques related to
`monetization, are there any modifications that a
`person of ordinary skill in the art would need to
`make to Meyer in order to arrive at claim 9 of the
`'615 patent?
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` A In my basic analysis, no. There are some
`considerations of how I think terms might have been
`interpreted differently by the patent owner, and I
`have some analysis of those. And I can't recall
`exactly what those were in terms of thinking about
`modifications to Meyer, but if you want, I can look.
`It will take a while.
` Q No, that's helpful.
` A I should also add that Meyer -- Meyer
`paints a fairly broad framework, it's an
`architecture, and as Meyer itself discloses, that
`architecture could be realized in various ways. So
`certainly the artisan, we have to appreciate the
`architecture of Meyer and understand how they would
`want to deploy it across multiple computational
`entities, for example.
` Q So could you turn to paragraph 84 of your
`declaration, please. Let me know when you're there.
` A Okay.
` Q Okay. And do you see about two-thirds of
`the way down on page 60 in your declaration you say,
`"But for purposes of my analysis, I am relying on
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`embodiments in Meyer in which the account provider
`and service provider are not the same entities"?
` A Yeah, let me -- let me read this and get
`oriented here.
` Yes, I see that. I'm sorry. Is there a
`pending question?
` Q No. Okay. And where does Meyer disclose
`that the account provider and the service provider
`can be separate entities?
` A Well, I cite to it. Want me to take Meyer
`out and shall we look at it?
` Q Yeah, I think that would be helpful.
` A Right. So this is basically what I cite
`to, column 19, the paragraph beginning line 6, as I
`said earlier, Meyer paints an architecture in broad
`strokes in here. It becomes specific because Meyer
`says, quote, "Different embodiments may use a single
`computer system for both the member information
`computer 109 and the incentive information computer
`105, while in other embodiments the member
`information computer 109 may be separate from the
`incentive information computer 105. Either of these
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`computers and associated databases may be split among
`several computers or replicated amongst several
`computers and how to modify the system to operate
`with such distributed or replicated information would
`be clear to one of ordinary skill in the art."
` Q Okay. And does this teaching in Meyer
`disclose that the member information computer 109 and
`the incentive information computer 105 are controlled
`by different entities?
` A This doesn't particularly say one way or
`the other whether they are the same entity or
`different entities. And that's part of why, as I
`said earlier, some of the -- some of the additional
`references, in particular the Zeff reference, show
`how a computer, which is basically an ad broker,
`which is what the second computer does, was typically
`operated as a wholly separate business. And both
`Zeff and the '615 patent, for example, discuss
`DoubleClick, which was one of such providers. So
`that's a service provider which is operating on its
`own computer and which does ad placement for a price.
` Q Okay. And is it your opinion that Meyer
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`itself discloses that the account provider and the
`service provider can be different entities?
` A Well, it just said that they could be
`different computers. Those are different entities.
` Q So I guess I'm asking about the
`organization that controls the computers. Does Meyer
`itself disclose that they can be -- that the account
`provider organization and the service provider
`organization are different organizations?
` A Well, Meyer discusses a number of
`different -- I'm a little -- trying to not just echo
`your words here -- organizations that may be
`participating in this process, right. So there are
`merchants and there are -- so merchants can actually
`make a sale, and there are organizations at which to
`apply incentives, and, for example, the incentive
`provider might be a credit card company. I don't
`recall what detail -- what detail Meyer -- Meyer
`discusses with respect to ownership of those. But if
`you give me a few minutes I can take a look.
` Well, looking in column 18, I mean, there
`are certainly -- hang on. Let's see -- so in
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`discussion in column 18, for example, paragraph
`beginning at line 18 discusses the incentive
`information computer 105, and it says the incentive
`information computer is typically run by the service
`provider. Whereas at line 35 it says the member
`information computer is the computer which holds
`consumer information. And then it says the member
`information computer is typically run by the account
`provider.
` So unless the service provider and the
`account provider were the same, then that clearly
`anticipates that they could be different entities.
` And, see, it does say that, further down,
`the service provider -- if the account provider and
`the service provider are the same entity, which may
`occur in some configurations, which suggests to me
`that Meyer anticipates that they may be different
`entities and they may be the same entity. And,
`clearly, what their relationship is may affect the
`architecture as to whether there's a single computer
`or a multiple computer where those computers reside,
`et cetera.
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` Q Are you aware of any specific embodiments
`in Meyer in which the account provider and the
`service provider are different entities?
` A Well, there's clearly an embodiment in
`which they are different computers, and the section
`that I was just discussing indicates that those --
`that that is a likely -- that is a likely arrangement
`when they are separate entities.
` Q Have you reviewed Meyer's Figure 3 and the
`description of Figure 3? Are you familiar with that
`generally?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So if the service provider and
`account provider were different computers -- strike
`that.
` If the account provider and service
`provider in Meyer were different entities, what
`modifications would need to be made to the
`architecture of Meyer's Figure 3?
` A So your question was if the account
`provider and service provider were different
`entities, how would that be reflected in modification
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`to Figure 3?
` Q That's right.
` A I think Figure 3 is agnostic as to whether
`they're one entity or two entities. I don't think it
`matters. There wouldn't be any changes.
` Q Okay. Could you please turn to paragraph
`97 of your declaration.
` A Okay. I'm there.
` Q Okay. And in paragraph 97 you state that,
`"Meyer also discloses and renders obvious that the BT
`computer system, at a first time, arranges for a
`third-party computer system...to electronically tag a
`first computer of a first visitor visiting a first
`website."
` And then in paragraph 98 you say, "I will
`describe this process in detail below."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So what I want to do is kind of walk
`through the description of the process of how this
`arrangement for tagging occurs.
` So in paragraph 99 you state that "a third
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`party website can display an incentive icon that,
`when activated, either manually or automatically,
`results in the display of details about the
`incentive."
` What is an incentive icon?
` A Let's see what Meyer says. No point in
`paraphrasing it.
` So column 25, line 9, Meyer defines
`incentive icon, it is "The audiovisual that appears
`on the consumer computer to identify existence of the
`incentive. In the preferred internet embodiment,
`this is typically a graphic icon defined by some
`lines of HTML," or that are displayed. It goes on
`more; there's about 20 lines.
` Q Okay. And then after some citations in
`paragraph 99 of your declaration, the second sentence
`of paragraph 99 states that "Meyer explains that an
`incentive that has been activated may optionally have
`information that Meyer calls display requirements."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And then in the final sentence of paragraph
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`99 you state that you are relying on the embodiment
`in Meyer in which incentives have display
`requirements. Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So in the instance that Meyer's
`incentives have display requirements, what does that
`process look like for displaying the incentive?
` A Okay. Well, so what level of detail would
`you like me to answer that?
` Q So what's the first step, I guess, in
`evaluating the --
` A Okay. So a function called Get_Member_ID
`is called.
` Q Okay. And is that disclosed in Meyer's
`Figure 7?
` A Yes, Figure 7 is -- Meyer's basically calls
`it pseudocode or descriptive logic of a textual
`description of the logic of what Get_Member_ID does.
` Q And in Figure 7, other than the comments,
`the first line of pseudocode is "BEGIN," and then
`right below that there's a line of pseudocode that
`says "get member ID from cookie."
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` Do you see that?
` A Right.
` Q So in your proposed ground 1 combination,
`which computer is performing the get member ID from
`operation?
` A Well, this is the consumer, the consumer
`computer.
` Q Okay. And so if the member ID is valid
`under your theory, then the consumer computer
`accesses the account provider to get member info from
`member database?
` A So -- so the stuff that goes on or that
`underlines -- underlies, you know, what we see in all
`caps ACCTPRVD, is both client side, that's at the
`consumer computer scripts and applets, as well as
`referring to the account provider computer. All
`right. So it's a software interface or API running
`between the consumer computer and the account
`provider. In this case we -- the account provider
`computer, okay. So we know in this case that it has
`to go to the account provider computer because it's
`getting info from the member ID database and that is
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`shown in Figure 1 as being the purview of the member
`information computer or the account provider
`computer.
` Q Okay. But it's your theory that it's the
`consumer computer that is -- that is getting the
`member info from the account provider computer. Is
`that right?
` A It's inappropriate to call it a theory.
`It's what the code says. The first line of the code
`says it executes in the consumer computer.
` Q So if the member ID is valid, this access
`account provider to get member info from member
`database pseudocode is executed on the consumer's
`computer, and is it fair to say that after that code
`is executed, the consumer computer now retains the
`member info that was retrieved?
` A Well, it's going to utilize that
`information. I'm not quite sure what you mean by
`retain. It needs to utilize that information because
`some of that information is likely to fulfill some of
`the requirements of the display requirements.
` Q Okay.
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` A That will -- that will dictate the
`appearance and perhaps the operation of the incentive
`icon. Whether that information is retained further,
`that depends on the internal structure of the code,
`and I wouldn't know.
` Q Okay. So what does the consumer computer
`do with the member info that it retrieves from the
`account provider?
` A Well, as I just said in the case -- it
`needs to do that in the case where there is display
`requirements and the display requirements -- the
`display requirements, it's a requirement that needs
`to get this information in order to figure out how to
`make the display, okay. So an example, which may or
`may not be in Meyer, or may have just imagined it,
`is, depending on the gender, it may show an incentive
`for male clothing versus female clothing.
` Q So it's the consumer computer which decides
`which incentive is displayed?
` A If it is an incentive that has
`requirements, that information is needed by the
`consumer computer in the description of this process
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`to determine how to make the display, how to
`display -- what to display.
` Q Okay. Is the -- is the determination of
`what incentive icon is displayed described in Meyer's
`Figure 4?
` A I am -- okay. Here we go. Looking for the
`text to describe the figure.
` Q So the text regarding Figure 4 starts I
`believe on --
` A Yeah, I'm there. I'm there.
` Q Okay.
` A Okay. So column 32, line 3 says, "An
`implementation for steps 203, 205, 207, 211, and 213
`is now described in detail by procedure
`View_Incentive shown as 501 in Figure 5A and
`continuing as 503 in Figure 5B."
` Okay. So that's talking about steps in the
`flowchart which are in Figure 2 and step 213 is
`labeled "Display Incentive info" -- sorry -- "Display
`Incentive." So that implies that Figure 5A and 5B
`actually do fulfill the requirement of displaying the
`incentive. So, therefore, I interpret the lines
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`where it says use, use the -- use the characteristics
`as subsuming the actual display. None of these
`lines -- none of these specifically says -- well, no,
`actually, it says "display incentive" in 5B. So the
`earlier lines about using -- using -- figuring out
`the -- sorry -- the incentive characteristics and
`whether to use the defaults are choosing the
`parameters, which then are used in -- when the line
`of pseudocode that says "display incentive" in Figure
`5B, about the fourth line from the bottom.
` I'm sorry. I'm actually -- it actually --
`I should -- let me correct that. We were talking
`about Figure 4, and Figure 4 has a line of pseudocode
`that says "display icon" and my analysis has been all
`around what it takes to display the icon, which can
`lead to the incentive, but I'm not considering that
`aspect of it. I'm only considering the logic that it
`takes to get the viewable icon.
` Q Okay. So Figure 5 is executed on the
`consumer computer. Is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So if we go to Figure 5B, which has
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`the ELSE statement that's commented as having display
`requirements, in the event that the incentive display
`requires missing member info, the Get_Required_Member
`_Info function is called. Is that right?
` A Yes. Mind you, this is the piece -- this
`is all extraneous to my analysis. I mean, this is
`what Meyer discloses, so I'm happy to discuss it, but
`my analysis stopped before we got to Figure 5.
` Q Understood. I'm just trying to understand
`how Meyer's system works as a whole together.
` A Sure. So I agreed with what you said
`earlier.
` Q And then Get_Required_Member_Info is shown
`in Figure 9. Is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q And then if there are pieces of information
`requiring external validation, then Validate_External
`_Member_Info is called. Is that right?
` A Right.
` Q And the first step of Validate_External
`_Member_Info is to access the service provider to get
`external validation process for external member info
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`from INCENT-DB. Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q How does the data from the INCENT-DB
`validate the member info?
` A Oh, well, it's not getting the data. It's
`getting a process or a procedure or instructions from
`that database. And this is basically a situation, as
`Meyer's describes -- as Meyer describes where there's
`some external party.
` So it's like when I go to hertz.com to
`reserve a car, and it's showing me rates -- I mean,
`this is not practicing Meyer, but this is basically
`what the process is like -- it's showing me rates. I
`can say I want a discount for AAA. So if I say I
`want a discount for AAA, what happens is that
`hertz.com pops up a dialogue box that asks me to put
`in my AAA number and my name and then it -- and I
`assume this is how it works, because if I make a
`mistake in the number this fails -- then Hertz goes
`off to AAA and verifies that that's -- that I'm
`actually the owner of that AAA number, that I'm a
`valid AAA member. And if that comes back as true,
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`then I get that rate. And I can tell you because I
`have -- there have been times when I've made typos
`that it comes back and it's false, and it says, I'm
`sorry, you can't.
` So it's not like Hertz is keeping track of
`my AAA membership number or that Hertz has access to
`AAA membership roll, but Hertz knows how to verify.
`So there are -- there are different levels of
`verification, right. So there's some check sums. A
`credit card has to follow certain rules, right. So I
`can put in a credit card number or make a mistake and
`there's a check sum algorithm that's executed and the
`merchant can immediately tell that's not a valid
`credit card number. But it's only by going off to my
`credit card company that it could verify that that
`number actually was my number. And that's the
`process that's being described here.
` So this is talking about the case where
`this is not just a characteristic of the user which
`is going to be stored in their member ID because they
`previously entered it. This is a case where there's
`some information which is going to require some
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`external validation totally outside of the Meyer
`system. And in that case, the way I read this
`pseudocode, is that the service provider tells the
`consumer computer this is what you have to do to get
`this info. So it does it and it verifies it and then
`we can proceed.
` And it actually -- it actually looks like
`the end of this -- this is actually going to be saved
`in the member database. So in this case Hertz does
`not remember my AAA number. But in this
`implementation in Meyer in this embodiment, it might
`remember my AAA number.
` Q Okay. So in Figure 7 Get_Member_ID
`executes in the consumer computer. And then does the
`sign-on process referenced in Figure 7 and then shown
`on Figure 8, is that executed in the consumer
`computer or some other computer?
` A This is all logic that's happening on the
`consumer -- on the consumer computer.
` Q Okay. So, for example, just to be clear,
`all of the lines of pseudocode in Figure 8 are
`executed by the consumer computer?
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