·1
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`·2· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4
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`·5· ·ASSA ABLOY AB, ASSA ABLOY INC., ASSA ABLO
`· · ·RESIDENTIAL GROUP, INC., AUGUST HOME, INC., HID
`·6· ·GLOBAL CORPORATION,
`· · ·ASSA ABLOY GLOBAL SOLUTIONS, INC.,
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioners,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · v.· · · ·Case IPR2022-01006
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2022-01045
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2022-01089
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`10· ·CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY LTD.,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · · ·REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
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`14· · · · · · · · · SAMUEL RUSS, PH.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · May 4, 2023
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`20
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`22· ·Stenographically Reported by:
`· · ·Bonnie Pruszynski, RMR, CA CSR No. 13064
`23· ·Job No. J9626891
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`24
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`25
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`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 1
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·2· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·3· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4
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`·5· ·ASSA ABLOY AB, ASSA ABLOY INC., ASSA ABLO
`· · ·RESIDENTIAL GROUP, INC., AUGUST HOME, INC., HID
`·6· ·GLOBAL CORPORATION,
`· · ·ASSA ABLOY GLOBAL SOLUTIONS, INC.,
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioners,
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · v.· · · ·Case IPR2022-01006
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2022-01045
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2022-01089
`
`10· ·CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY LTD.,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · · ·REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
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`14· · · · · · · · · SAMUEL RUSS, PH.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · May 4, 2023
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22· ·Stenographically Reported by:
`· · ·Bonnie Pruszynski, RMR, CA CSR No. 13064
`23· ·Job No. J9626891
`
`24
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`25
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·May 4, 2023
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·9:00 a.m. PST
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·REMOTE DEPOSITION OF SAMUEL
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`·9· ·RUSS, PH.D., before Bonnie Pruszynski, CA
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`10· ·Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 13064, a
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`11· ·Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Livenote
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`12· ·Reporter, and Notary Public of the States of New
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`13· ·York and Florida.
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`14
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1
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`·2· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·3
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`·4· ·MORGAN LEWIS & BOCKIUS
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`·5· ·Attorneys for Petitioners
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`·6· · · · · · · 2049 Century Park East
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`·7· · · · · · · Suite 700
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`·8· · · · · · · Los Angeles, CA 90067-3109
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`·9· ·BY:· · ·Andrew V. Devkar, Esq.
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`10
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`11· ·CANTOR COLBURN
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`12· ·Attorneys for the Patent Owner:
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`13· · · · · · 20 Church Street,· 22nd Floor |
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`14· · · · · · Hartford, CT 06103-3207
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`15· ·BY:· ·Andrew C. Ryan, Esq.
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· · · · · · ·(Witness sworn.)
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`·3· ·SAMUEL RUSS, PH.D.,
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`·4· · · · · ·called as a witness, having been first
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`·5· · · · · ·duly sworn, was examined and testified
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`·6· · · · · ·as follows:
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`·7· ·EXAMINATION
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`·8· ·BY MR. DEVKAR:
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · Good morning, Dr. Russ.
`
`10· · · ·A.· · Good morning.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · Can you please state your full name
`
`12· ·for the record.
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Samuel Hardie Russ.· That's
`
`14· ·H-A-R-D-I-E.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever had your deposition
`
`16· ·taken before?
`
`17· · · ·A.· · Yes, I have.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· · Approximately how many times?
`
`19· · · ·A.· · I would say approximately 40 times.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So, you are probably pretty
`
`21· ·familiar with the deposition process, but I
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`22· ·will just briefly express a few ground rules
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`23· ·that you probably know well.
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`24· · · · · · ·The first is that we should do our
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`25· ·best not to talk over one another so that the
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`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· ·court reporter can accurately record what
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`·3· ·each person is saying.· Does that sound all
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`·4· ·right?
`
`·5· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · If you don't understand a question,
`
`·7· ·would you please let me know?· Otherwise, I
`
`·8· ·will assume that you do understand the
`
`·9· ·question.· Is that okay?
`
`10· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · Because this is a virtual
`
`12· ·deposition, I'm going to -- when I introduce
`
`13· ·exhibits, these will be the same exhibit
`
`14· ·numbers as in the IPR proceedings, and so,
`
`15· ·they're documents you're probably familiar
`
`16· ·with, but my plan is to upload those exhibits
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`17· ·into the chat window.
`
`18· · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· · And you would be able to download
`
`20· ·them and access them in order to refer to
`
`21· ·them.· Does that sound okay?
`
`22· · · ·A.· · That sounds okay.· And also, just
`
`23· ·for the record, I have clean unmarked copies
`
`24· ·of my two declarations, and a clean unmarked
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`25· ·copy of the Bianco reference, the '705
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 5
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·patent, and the Mathiassen reference, and to
`
`·3· ·be clear, just for the record, a clean
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`·4· ·unmarked copy of the list of exhibits.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So, all of the materials you
`
`·6· ·have in front of you are clean and unmarked;
`
`·7· ·is that correct?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · And they are all materials that are
`
`10· ·of record in the IPR proceedings, as far as
`
`11· ·you are aware?
`
`12· · · ·A.· · Yes.· Yes.· In fact, they bear
`
`13· ·exhibit labels for the IPR.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Great.· I think those will come in
`
`15· ·handy as well, because I assume those are the
`
`16· ·key exhibits that I will be referring to.
`
`17· ·So, you can refer to either the paper copies
`
`18· ·that you have or the electronic copies that I
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`19· ·will put in the chat.· Does that sound all
`
`20· ·right?
`
`21· · · ·A.· · That sounds good.· Thank you.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of any reason that
`
`23· ·you are not able to give full and truthful
`
`24· ·answers to my questions today?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · No, I am not aware of any.
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· · · ·Q.· · What did you do to prepare for this
`
`·3· ·deposition?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · I read my declarations.· I looked
`
`·5· ·through the references.· I spoke with counsel
`
`·6· ·yesterday.· Again, just to review the
`
`·7· ·testimony that was contained in these
`
`·8· ·declarations.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · You mentioned that you met with
`
`10· ·counsel yesterday to prepare for this
`
`11· ·deposition.· Did you meet with counsel any
`
`12· ·other days to prepare for this deposition?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Not that I recall.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Did you meet with anyone other than
`
`15· ·your counsel to prepare for this deposition?
`
`16· · · ·A.· · No.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · Approximately how much time did you
`
`18· ·spend meeting with counsel, if you recall?
`
`19· · · ·A.· · It was on the order of a few hours.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · Today we will be addressing your
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`21· ·declaration in connection with three
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`22· ·related IPRs, which are IPR 2022-01006,
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`23· ·IPR 2022-01045, and IPR 2022-01089.
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`24· · · · · · ·Is it your understanding that you
`
`25· ·submitted declarations in each of these three
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· ·IPRs?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · I'm going to put those three
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`·5· ·declarations into the chat, if I can here.
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`·6· · · · · · ·My understanding is that your
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`·7· ·declarations are designated as Exhibit 2031
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`·8· ·in each of the IPR proceedings.· Is that your
`
`·9· ·understanding as well?
`
`10· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · There are two IPRs relating to the
`
`12· ·'208 patent.· Is that your understanding?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Are the two declarations that you
`
`15· ·submitted for the IPRs on the '208 patent of
`
`16· ·identical content?
`
`17· · · ·A.· · My recollection is that they are of
`
`18· ·substantial identical content.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· · Your declaration in connection with
`
`20· ·the IPR for the '705 patent -- strike that.
`
`21· · · · · · ·Is your declaration in connection
`
`22· ·with the IPR for the '705 patent different
`
`23· ·from your declarations in connection with the
`
`24· ·IPRs on the '208 patent?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · It's different to the extent that
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 8
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· ·the claim language is different.· And so,
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`·3· ·obviously, the analysis of the claim language
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`·4· ·is going to be different because the claim
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`·5· ·language is different.· I mean, you know, I
`
`·6· ·think it's fair to acknowledge there is
`
`·7· ·clearly some similarities between the two,
`
`·8· ·but the claim language is different, so the
`
`·9· ·substance of the report is different in a few
`
`10· ·places.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · Thank you.
`
`12· · · · · · ·And your declarations for all three
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`13· ·IPRs share many of the same central arguments
`
`14· ·regarding the prior art; is that correct?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · That's correct.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · I believe my questions today will
`
`17· ·focus largely on the central arguments in
`
`18· ·your declarations that are common to both of
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`19· ·the patents and all three IPRs.· However, if
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`20· ·there are any differences, we can focus on
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`21· ·them, but I expect my questions will
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`22· ·generally apply across both patents and all
`
`23· ·three of your declarations.· Does that sound
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`24· ·all right?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · That sounds all right.· And if I
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`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· ·have any questions about that during
`
`·3· ·questioning, I will be sure to bring them up.
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`·4· ·That sounds like a fair characterization,
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`·5· ·yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · Thank you.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·I'm going to ask a few questions
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`·8· ·relating to your background in the
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`·9· ·declarations.· Again, I think these are
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`10· ·common to all three of your declarations, but
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`11· ·for convenience, I will refer to your
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`12· ·declaration in connection with the '705
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`13· ·patent.
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`14· · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · In paragraph 10 of your
`
`16· ·declaration, you detail some experience you
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`17· ·had as a staff electrical engineer and matrix
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`18· ·manager at Checkmate, now Ingenico.· Do you
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`19· ·see that?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · I do.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · And in that paragraph you mentioned
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`22· ·that you managed the hardware design team
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`23· ·that completed the design of the
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`24· ·eN-Touch 1000 payment terminal.· Do you see
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`25· ·that?
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· · · ·A.· · Yes.· And we pronounce that
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`·3· ·eN-Touch 1000, although I'm glad you cleared
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`·4· ·that up for the record.· It's E-N hyphen
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`·5· ·Touch 1000 in this writing.
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`·6· · · · · · ·And then to be clear, yes, I see
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`·7· ·where I -- I did manage the design of that
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`·8· ·product, yes.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Also included in this paragraph
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`10· ·ten, you mentioned that the eN-Touch 1000 has
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`11· ·biometric security applications.· Do you see
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`12· ·that?
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`13· · · ·A.· · Well, I think what I am saying in
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`14· ·that sentence is that the capacitive
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`15· ·touchscreen technology has biometric security
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`16· ·applications.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · A capacitive touchscreen can be
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`18· ·used as a biometric sensor; correct?
`
`19· · · ·A.· · That's correct.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · Can you please explain what the
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`21· ·biometric security applications were in
`
`22· ·connection with the eN-Touch 1000?
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`23· · · ·A.· · Well, again, the sentence may be
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`24· ·inartfully worded.· I'm saying that the
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`25· ·capacitive touchscreen technology has
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`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 11
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· ·biometric security applications.· Now, the
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`·3· ·eN-Touch 1000 could capture human signatures
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`·4· ·and transmit them, but at least the software
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`·5· ·that was in the eN-Touch 1000 at the time of
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`·6· ·development merely captured the signature and
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`·7· ·did not try to do any analysis on it.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·But again, the sentence is drawn to
`
`·9· ·the fact that capacitive touchscreen
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`10· ·technology has biometric security
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`11· ·applications.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· · So, the capacitive touchscreen of
`
`13· ·the eN-Touch 1000 was designed to capture
`
`14· ·human signatures?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · When capturing human signatures,
`
`17· ·would the capacitive touchscreen of the
`
`18· ·eN-Touch 1000 be acting as a biometric
`
`19· ·sensor?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · Again, it was not programmed to do
`
`21· ·so when we were developing it, but it could
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`22· ·have been reprogrammed to do so later, for
`
`23· ·example, to capture timing information.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· · As far as you know, was the
`
`25· ·capacitive touchscreen of the eN-Touch 1000
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·ever used to act as a biometric sensor?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · Not to my knowledge.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any specific work or
`
`·5· ·research experience with fingerprint readers?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· · Not with -- the closest work I have
`
`·7· ·done in connection with fingerprint readers
`
`·8· ·is again in the development of capacitive
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`·9· ·technology, but not with fingerprint readers
`
`10· ·directly.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · And that closest work that you have
`
`12· ·done in connection with capacitive
`
`13· ·touchscreens, does that refer to the work you
`
`14· ·did on the eN-Touch 1000?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · It refers to the work I did on the
`
`16· ·eN-Touch 1000 and lectures that I give in my
`
`17· ·embedded systems class on capacitive
`
`18· ·touchscreen technology, and the work I did to
`
`19· ·prepare for those lectures, of course.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · You have no work experience
`
`21· ·developing fingerprint readers; is that
`
`22· ·correct?
`
`23· · · ·A.· · Not developing fingerprint readers
`
`24· ·per se, but I am expert in the technology
`
`25· ·associated with it.
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 13
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any work or research
`
`·3· ·experience developing any other types of
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`·4· ·biometric devices or sensors?
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`·5· · · ·A.· · Well, as I think my CV summary
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`·6· ·explains in my report, I have experiences
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`·7· ·with a lot of the technologies associated
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`·8· ·with biometric systems, including
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`·9· ·cryptographic protection, physical access,
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`10· ·device access security, and so, I have worked
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`11· ·with technologies that surround the
`
`12· ·biometric, if you will, ecosystem, but in
`
`13· ·terms of biometric fingerprint capture or
`
`14· ·anything like that, no.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · I would like to turn to
`
`16· ·paragraph 29 of your declaration, which sits
`
`17· ·under the heading "Level of Skill in the
`
`18· ·Art."
`
`19· · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · In paragraph 29 of your
`
`21· ·declaration, you state:· "I understand that
`
`22· ·the Board adopted the following level of
`
`23· ·ordinary skill in the art in the ongoing IPR
`
`24· ·concerning the '705 patent that was filed by
`
`25· ·Apple."
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`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 14
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
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`·2· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Do you see that?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · And in your declarations for these
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`·6· ·three IPR proceedings, you applied this
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`·7· ·definition of a person of ordinary skill in
`
`·8· ·the art; is that correct?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· · In paragraph 30 of your
`
`11· ·declaration, you set forth a set of claim
`
`12· ·constructions relating to the IPR concerning
`
`13· ·the '705 patent filed by Apple; is that
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`14· ·correct?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · And your understanding is that the
`
`17· ·Board adopted these claim constructions in
`
`18· ·connection with the Apple IPRs on the subject
`
`19· ·patents; is that correct?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · Yes, that is my understanding.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · Is it your opinion that the Board
`
`22· ·has adopted any of these particular
`
`23· ·constructions in the IPRs for the '705 and
`
`24· ·'208 patents in the IPRs for which you
`
`25· ·submitted declarations?
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 15
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · I don't recall at the moment
`
`·3· ·whether they have or not.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · You applied the constructions you
`
`·5· ·found in the Apple IPR proceedings in your
`
`·6· ·opinions relating to the '705 and '208
`
`·7· ·patents; correct?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · What is your understanding of the
`
`10· ·point of novelty of the '705 and '208
`
`11· ·patents?
`
`12· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection to form.
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Well, I mentioned this in passing,
`
`14· ·for example, in paragraph 99 of my report.
`
`15· ·Let me restate that.
`
`16· · · · · · ·I give one example of that in
`
`17· ·paragraph 99 of my report, where I mention
`
`18· ·that "the Petitioners have pointed to no
`
`19· ·prior art wherein duration is measured in
`
`20· ·connection with a fingerprint or any other
`
`21· ·physical biometric attribute.· The first
`
`22· ·mention of this novel approach in the entire
`
`23· ·record is in the application for the '705
`
`24· ·patent itself."
`
`25· · · · · · ·So, I believe that that is one
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 16
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·point of novelty with regard to the '705
`
`·3· ·patent.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of any other points
`
`·5· ·of novelty in connection with the '705
`
`·6· ·patent?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· · Unless there is an opinion in here
`
`·8· ·that I don't recall at the moment, that I --
`
`·9· ·I don't have any other opinions on that
`
`10· ·subject at the moment.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · And would your answers be the same
`
`12· ·for the '208 patent?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Yes, they would.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Referring to your declaration
`
`15· ·beginning on paragraph 33, you provide
`
`16· ·opinions on the appropriate construction for
`
`17· ·the term "biometric signal"; is that correct?
`
`18· · · ·A.· · That's correct.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· · You opine that at the relevant time
`
`20· ·period, there were two primary types of
`
`21· ·biometric identification, and those are
`
`22· ·physical biometrics and behavioral
`
`23· ·biometrics; is that correct?
`
`24· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · · · ·And to be clear, in paragraph 36 I
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 17
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`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·call them physical attributes and behavioral
`
`·3· ·attributes, but yes.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Your opinion is that the term
`
`·5· ·"biometric signal" in the '705 and '208
`
`·6· ·patents is limited to physical biometrics
`
`·7· ·only and excludes behavioral biometrics; is
`
`·8· ·that correct?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · I think that is a fair summary,
`
`10· ·yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · When interpreting the scope of a
`
`12· ·claim limitation, what is your understanding
`
`13· ·of the circumstances in which it is proper to
`
`14· ·read a limitation from the specification into
`
`15· ·the claim?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`17· · · ·A.· · Well, when determining the
`
`18· ·construction of a claim term, I find it
`
`19· ·helpful to start with the claim itself and
`
`20· ·see if there is any internal structure of the
`
`21· ·claim that helps define the claim term, and
`
`22· ·then it helps to turn to the specification
`
`23· ·and see how it uses the term, and in this
`
`24· ·case, the specification I think actually
`
`25· ·provides very clear guidance as to how the
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 18
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·term is meant to be used, and let's see.· In
`
`·3· ·fact, I cite it.· In the '705, it's found in
`
`·4· ·1:29 through 33, where it says an "example of
`
`·5· ·a biometric signal is a fingerprint.· Other
`
`·6· ·physical attributes that can be used
`
`·7· ·include," and so the specification, I think,
`
`·8· ·in this case is quite clear that that's what
`
`·9· ·the term "biometric signal" refers to.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· · Outside of the context of the '705
`
`11· ·and '208 patents, do you agree that the term
`
`12· ·biometric signal would include both physical
`
`13· ·and behavioral biometric signals?
`
`14· · · ·A.· · I think the way I would put it is,
`
`15· ·the field of biometrics generally includes
`
`16· ·both.· You know, Bianco, for example, says
`
`17· ·there is two basic categories of biometric
`
`18· ·measurements, and Currie, the Currie article
`
`19· ·that I cited in paragraph 37 talks about
`
`20· ·physiological biometrics and behavioral
`
`21· ·biometrics.
`
`22· · · · · · ·So, I think it's safe to say that
`
`23· ·the art referred to both generally, but there
`
`24· ·is a distinction to be made between what
`
`25· ·Currie calls physiological and behavioral
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 19
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·aspects.· So, it's important -- because there
`
`·3· ·is this clear distinction in the art, it's
`
`·4· ·very important to be clear what the
`
`·5· ·individual reference is actually referring
`
`·6· ·to.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Outside of the context of the '705
`
`·8· ·and '208 patents, would you agree that a
`
`·9· ·behavioral biometric signal is a type of
`
`10· ·biometric signal?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`12· · · ·A.· · I would say that, for example,
`
`13· ·citing the Currie article, that behavioral
`
`14· ·biometrics are distinct from physiological
`
`15· ·biometrics.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · But both are types of biometrics;
`
`17· ·correct?
`
`18· · · ·A.· · They are two broad categories of
`
`19· ·biometrics, yes.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · In the '705 and '208 patents, are
`
`21· ·you aware of anyplace that the patent
`
`22· ·applicant explicitly disclaimed or disavowed
`
`23· ·any types of biometric signals from the scope
`
`24· ·of the claims?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · Well, the patent -- the passage
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 20
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·that I cited, which is 1:29 through 33 of the
`
`·3· ·'705 patent, says:· "One example of a
`
`·4· ·biometric signal is a fingerprint."· And then
`
`·5· ·it says:· "Other physical attributes that can
`
`·6· ·be used to provide biometric signals
`
`·7· ·include," so, there is a pretty clear
`
`·8· ·indication, or actually in my mind there is a
`
`·9· ·very clear indication in the specification
`
`10· ·that it is drawn to physical attributes as
`
`11· ·opposed to behavioral ones.
`
`12· · · · · · ·So, that's evidence at least of a
`
`13· ·focus on physical attributes as opposed to
`
`14· ·behavioral.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · Aside from this focus on physical
`
`16· ·attributes, are you aware of anywhere in the
`
`17· ·specification that clearly excluded other
`
`18· ·types of biometric signals from the scope of
`
`19· ·the claims?
`
`20· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`21· · · ·A.· · I'm not -- I mean, I have a
`
`22· ·two-part answer to that.· I mean, I'm not
`
`23· ·aware of any, but I don't think I need any,
`
`24· ·because it literally says "physical
`
`25· ·attributes," and so, that's the exact words
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 21
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·from the patent, and so, it looks like the
`
`·3· ·patent is drawn as physical attributes and
`
`·4· ·not behavioral ones.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Would it be fair to say that all of
`
`·6· ·the examples of biometric signals that you
`
`·7· ·found in the patent are examples of physical
`
`·8· ·attributes and not behavioral attributes?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · Well, a two-part answer to that.
`
`10· ·First, you know, I clearly explain, I
`
`11· ·believe, in the report that voice is in a
`
`12· ·unique category, because some experts in the
`
`13· ·field consider it physical, some consider it
`
`14· ·behavioral, and some consider it both.
`
`15· · · · · · ·So, leaving voice outside for the
`
`16· ·moment, again, the patent is drawn to
`
`17· ·physical attributes, and that seems that that
`
`18· ·is pretty clearly then how the -- what is
`
`19· ·clearly the category of biometrics that the
`
`20· ·patent is drawn to.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · If you looked at the claims of the
`
`22· ·'705 and '208 patents without any reference
`
`23· ·to the specification of those patents, would
`
`24· ·you be able to limit the term "biometric
`
`25· ·signal" to physical attributes as opposed to
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 22
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·behavioral attributes?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · Well, I sort of -- I don't know how
`
`·5· ·to answer that question, because that's not
`
`·6· ·the proper way to construe terms in a claim,
`
`·7· ·and so, it's -- you know, it sounds like, you
`
`·8· ·know, the question almost amounts to, setting
`
`·9· ·aside the rules for interpreting a claim, how
`
`10· ·would you interpret the claim, and I imagine
`
`11· ·you did not mean it that way, but that's why
`
`12· ·I am not able to give a direct answer to that
`
`13· ·question.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· You referred to the rules
`
`15· ·for interpreting a claim.· Is it your
`
`16· ·understanding that where all examples of a
`
`17· ·claim element in the specification
`
`18· ·consistently describe a physical attribute,
`
`19· ·that it is therefore appropriate to limit the
`
`20· ·term "biometric signal" to a physical
`
`21· ·attribute?
`
`22· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`23· · · ·A.· · Well, I have a two-part answer to
`
`24· ·that.· For the first part, I think it's a
`
`25· ·fair way to interpret the claim, because
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 23
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·that's how the specification defines the term
`
`·3· ·that is used in the claim.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·And secondly, again, I'm applying
`
`·5· ·the Court's construction here, which I think
`
`·6· ·I'm not only allowed to do, I think I'm
`
`·7· ·responsible for doing.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And I guess the third part of my
`
`·9· ·two-part answer -- sorry -- is, now that I
`
`10· ·think about it for a second, to be clear, I
`
`11· ·do agree with the Court's construction for
`
`12· ·the reasons outlined in my report.· So, I
`
`13· ·agree with their construction, I am applying
`
`14· ·their construction, and I am using the
`
`15· ·specification to define the, or give -- yeah,
`
`16· ·to define the terms that are used in the
`
`17· ·claim.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· · Your position is that in the IPR
`
`19· ·proceedings for which you are offering an
`
`20· ·opinion, the Board has construed the term
`
`21· ·"biometric signal"?
`
`22· · · ·A.· · What I describe here in the report
`
`23· ·is a construction that was issued in
`
`24· ·connection with an IPR that was filed by
`
`25· ·Apple.· Now we're in front of the same
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 24
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·adjudicating body, so I think it's reasonable
`
`·3· ·to use their construction again in this
`
`·4· ·matter.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·I don't currently recall whether or
`
`·6· ·not they have issued a construction in this
`
`·7· ·matter, but I think it's reasonable to --
`
`·8· ·since the Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`
`·9· ·adopted this construction, I think it's
`
`10· ·reasonable for me to apply it.
`
`11· · · · · · ·And again, to be clear, as I make
`
`12· ·clear in paragraph 32, I do agree with this
`
`13· ·construction.· To the extent that an
`
`14· ·independent opinion is needed from me, I do
`
`15· ·agree with this construction.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of anywhere in the
`
`17· ·claims of the '705 and '208 patents
`
`18· ·themselves that require the biometric signal
`
`19· ·to be a physical attribute?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · Well, again, I don't know that it's
`
`21· ·proper to just look to a claim itself to see
`
`22· ·how terms in the claim are defined or used,
`
`23· ·so I'm not sure how to answer that question.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of any specific
`
`25· ·recitation in the claim language itself that
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 25
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·limits the biometric signal to be a physical
`
`·3· ·attribute?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · Overlooking the plain declaration
`
`·5· ·in the specification, and even distinctions
`
`·6· ·drawn in the art cited by the petitioner,
`
`·7· ·such as Bianco, there is nothing in the claim
`
`·8· ·itself that says that, but it doesn't need
`
`·9· ·to, because it is clearly defined in the
`
`10· ·specification.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · And the clear definition of the
`
`12· ·term "biometric signal" that you are
`
`13· ·referring to is the excerpt you cited in
`
`14· ·paragraph 33 of your declaration; is that
`
`15· ·correct?
`
`16· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · And --
`
`18· · · ·A.· · And I'm also making -- excuse me.
`
`19· ·I'm sorry to interrupt, Counsel, but I just
`
`20· ·want to give you a complete answer.
`
`21· · · · · · ·I'm also making reference to the
`
`22· ·distinction drawn in the Bianco reference.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· · The Bianco reference clearly
`
`24· ·explains that biometric signals include two
`
`25· ·different categories of biometric signals;
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 26
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·correct?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · Yes.· And importantly, it makes
`
`·4· ·clear that there are two different
`
`·5· ·categories.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · Does the Bianco reference in your
`
`·7· ·opinion exclude one of those two categories
`
`·8· ·from the term "biometric signal"?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · I don't recall at the moment, but I
`
`10· ·do know that it draws two distinct
`
`11· ·categories.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· · Do you recall whether the Bianco
`
`13· ·reference disparages or otherwise expresses a
`
`14· ·preference for one of the two categories of
`
`15· ·biometric signals over the other?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`17· · · ·A.· · Well, my recollection is that the
`
`18· ·petition relies on the behavioral
`
`19· ·characteristic aspect of Bianco.· I don't
`
`20· ·recall at the moment what Bianco says about
`
`21· ·physical characteristics.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· · I would like to refer to the '705
`
`23· ·and '208 patents, which share a
`
`24· ·specification.· So, I'm going to upload
`
`25· ·Exhibit 1001 into the chat window, and you
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 27
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·let me know when you have Exhibit 1001, which
`
`·3· ·is a copy of the '705 patent.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · All right.· I'm downloading it now,
`
`·5· ·and I also have a clean paper copy as well.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · Throughout the specification, there
`
`·7· ·is a reference to a biometric signal 102, and
`
`·8· ·I can point you to some examples.· For
`
`·9· ·example, column eight, the second full
`
`10· ·paragraph and third full paragraph refer to
`
`11· ·the biometric signal 102.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Columns five and six of the patent,
`
`15· ·there is reference to a request 102.
`
`16· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · Is it your understanding that the
`
`18· ·patent specification uses the terms
`
`19· ·"request 102" and "biometric signal 102"
`
`20· ·interchangeably?
`
`21· · · ·A.· · Offhand and loosely speaking, I
`
`22· ·would say that that is correct.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· · In column five of the patent
`
`24· ·specification, there is a sentence that
`
`25· ·begins in the last full paragraph of column
`
`ASSA ABLOY Ex. 1028 - Page 28
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006 - U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · S. Russ
`
`·2· ·five, which reads:· "The code entry
`
`·3· ·module 103 includes a biometric sensor 121,
`
`·4· ·and the request 102 takes a form which
`
`·5· ·corresponds to the nature of the sensor 121
`
`·6· ·in the module 103."
`
`·7· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · And the following sentence reads:
`
`10· ·"Thus, for example, if the biometric
`
`11· ·sensor 121 in the code entry module 103 is a
`
`12· ·fingerprint sensor, then the request 102
`
`13· ·typically takes the form of a thumb press on
`
`14· ·the sensor panel (not shown) on the code
`
`15· ·entry module 103."
`
`16· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`17· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· · Do you interpret these disclosures
`
`19· ·in the patent specification to mean that the
`
`20· ·biometric signal is the signal that is
`
`21· ·receivable by the particular biometric se
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