CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 001
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`____________________________________________________________
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`·ASSA ABLOY AB, ASSA ABLOY INC., ASSA ABLOY RESIDENTIAL
`·GROUP, INC., AUGUST HOME, INC., HID GLOBAL CORPORATION,
`· · · · · ·ASSA ABLOY GLOBAL SOLUTIONS, INC.,
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`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`· · · · · ·CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY LTD.,
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`____________________________________________________________
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`· · · Case IPR2022-01006 (US Patent No. 9,665,705)
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`· · · Case IPR2022-01045 (US Patent No. 9,269,208)
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`· · · Case IPR2022-01089 (US Patent No. 9,269,208)
`____________________________________________________________
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`· · · · · · ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·STUART LIPOFF
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`· · · · · · ·INDIVIDUALLY AND ON BEHALF OF
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·ASSA ABLOY AB
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`· · · · · · · · · ·February 14, 2023
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`· · · ·Page 1 - 70· · · · ·9:37 a.m. - 12:12 p.m.
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`REPORTED BY:
`Tamara L. Houston
`CA CSR No. 7244, RPR, CCRR No. 140
`Job Number 120446
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 002
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·4· · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF STUART
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`·5· ·LIPOFF, taken on behalf of the Patent Owner, commencing
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`·6· ·from 9:37 a.m. to 12:12 p.m., Tuesday, February 14,
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`·7· ·2023, before Tamara L. Houston, CSR No. 7244, CCRR, RPR.
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 003
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
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`·2
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`·3· · · · On behalf of the Petitioner:
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`·4· · · · · · ·MORGAN, LEWIS & BOCKIUS LLP
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· ANDREW V. DEVKAR, ESQ.
`·5· · · · · · ·2049 Century Park East
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 700
`·6· · · · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90067
`· · · · · · · ·(310) 255-9070
`·7· · · · · · ·andrew.devkar@morganlewis.com
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`·8· · · · On behalf of the Patent Owner and Witness:
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`·9· · · · · · ·CANTOR COLBURN LLP
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· ANDREW C. RYAN, ESQ.
`10· · · · · · · · · STEVEN M. COYLE, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·20 Church Street
`11· · · · · · ·22nd Floor
`· · · · · · · ·Hartford, Connecticut 06103
`12· · · · · · ·860) 286-2929
`· · · · · · · ·ryan@cantorcolburn.com
`13· · · · · · ·scoyle@cantorcolburn.com
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 004
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`·2· · · · · · · · · WITNESS: STUART LIPOFF
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`·3· ·EXAMINATIONS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·Mr. Ryan.........................................· · 6
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Page· · ·Line
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·None
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 005
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·STUART LIPOFF
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`·3· · ·ASSA ABLOY AB vs. CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY LTD.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·FEBRUARY 14, 2023
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`·5· · · TAMARA L. HOUSTON, CSR No. 7244, CRR No. 140, RPR
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`·6
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`·7· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · None marked.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 006
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·Tuesday, February 14, 2023, 9:37 a.m.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
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`·3· · · · · · · · All counsel present stipulate
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`·4· · · · · ·that the witness shall be sworn remotely
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · by the court reporter
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · * * *
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`·7· · · · · · · · · Whereupon, STUART LIPOFF, having been
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · called as a witness was duly sworn
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · to tell the truth, the whole truth,
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`10· · · · · · · · · · and nothing but the truth testified
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`11· · · · · · · · · · as follows:
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`12· · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION BY MR. RYAN:
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Mr. Lipoff.
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`14· · · · A.· ·Good morning, Mr. Ryan.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·Like we said, my name is Andrew Ryan.· I'm an
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`16· ·attorney with Cantor Colburn, and I represent the patent
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`17· ·owner, CPC Technologies, in this matter.
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`18· · · · · · ·We're here today to take your deposition on a
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`19· ·couple of inter partes reviews that are pending between
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`20· ·CPC and several entities, which I'll refer to
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`21· ·collectively as "ASSA ABLOY" or just simply as
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`22· ·"Petitioners."· Okay?
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`23· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·And the IPRs we're here to talk about today
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`25· ·are directed to two of CPC's patents, the first one
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 007
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· ·being Patent Number 9,665,705, which I'll refer to as
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`·2· ·"the '705 patent" for short.· Will you understand that
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`·3· ·if I refer to it that way?
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`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·And the second patent is Patent
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`·6· ·Number 9,269,208, which I will refer to as "the '208
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`·7· ·patent."· Okay?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·Now, Mr. Lipoff, I know you've been deposed
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`10· ·many times before, so I won't belabor the ground rules,
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`11· ·but just to highlight a few of the more important ones,
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`12· ·you know, it's important that just one of us talk at a
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`13· ·time, especially since we're on video, to make sure the
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`14· ·court reporter can get everything down.
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`15· · · · · · ·You're going to want to be sure to make all
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`16· ·your responses verbal.· You know, nodding of the head,
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`17· ·shaking of the head obviously won't show up on the
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`18· ·record, right?
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`19· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·And then if you need a break, feel free to ask
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`21· ·for a break any time.· I would just ask that you don't
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`22· ·take a break while a question is pending.· Okay?
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`23· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·Now, with regard to documents and exhibits,
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`25· ·when I refer to a document, what I -- what I will do is
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 008
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`·1· ·I'll generally share it on the screen and I'll also link
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`·2· ·the document in the chat section so you can download it
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`·3· ·and scroll through it yourself.· Okay?· Will that be
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`·4· ·okay for you?
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`·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· It will.· I should tell you that
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`·6· ·counsel from Morgan Lewis did provide me with hard
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`·7· ·copies of some of the major documents in the case, which
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`·8· ·I have here.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· That's great.· Yeah.· That was my next
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`10· ·question.
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`11· · · · · · ·So what documents do you have with you?
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`12· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So I have the two declarations for
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`13· ·the -- the '208 and the '705 patent.· I've got the cited
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`14· ·prior art references -- Bianco, Mathiassen, Houvener,
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`15· ·and Richmond -- and I have hard copies of the two
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`16· ·patents, the '208 and the '70- -- '705 patent.· They
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`17· ·were in a binder that I took out.
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`18· · · · · · ·I also have a binder with some other -- other
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`19· ·documents in it which I have not removed from the
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`20· ·binder.· I -- I don't anticipate that -- well, I can
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`21· ·tell you what they are if you want.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·Well, sure.· But let me just first ask you,
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`23· ·are they -- are the all documents that have been marked
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`24· ·as exhibits or otherwise submitted in these IPRs?
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`25· · · · A.· ·Yes, they are.· They're all documents of
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 009
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· ·record.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Why don't you go ahead and identify
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`·3· ·them while you have them there.
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`·4· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Hold on.· Just give me a moment because
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`·5· ·it's a huge binder and a little difficult to navigate.
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`·6· ·So...
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`·7· · · · · · ·One of them is the -- the petition for
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`·8· ·the '705.· The other one is the institution decision for
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`·9· ·the '705.· Then I have the petition for the '208.· And
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`10· ·let's see.· These other ones are just copies of the --
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`11· ·the same prior art references.· Let me -- institution
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`12· ·decision for the '208, patent owner's notice of a
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`13· ·deposition, and that's it.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are all those clean copies, or are
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`15· ·there any handwritten notes or stickies on any
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`16· ·documents?
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`17· · · · A.· ·No, they're all clean copies.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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`19· · · · A.· ·Haven't done anything to them.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have anything else that you
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`21· ·plan on referring to today in front of you?
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`22· · · · A.· ·No, just -- just the Zoom screen.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Lipoff, can you tell me when you were
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`24· ·retained to serve as an expert witness in this case?
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`25· · · · A.· ·I don't recall the exact date, but the
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 010
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`·1· ·declarations were signed in May of last year.· So I
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`·2· ·think it was approximately -- approximately four months.
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`·3· ·Say, like in February -- approximately February of last
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`·4· ·year.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you remember who contacted you?
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`·6· · · · A.· ·No.· I don't at this point.· I don't recall
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`·7· ·who I first had contact with from Morgan Lewis.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·Would you have been contacted directly by
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`·9· ·somebody at Morgan Lewis, or do you work through, you
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`10· ·know, an expert agency?
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`11· · · · A.· ·I do work through expert agencies, but I can't
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`12· ·tell you, as I sit here, whether in this case I billed
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`13· ·directly or through one of the agencies.· I just don't
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`14· ·-- I don't remember without looking at my billing
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`15· ·records since in the course of my work, I do both, and
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`16· ·for this case, I don't recall.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·So can you just explain generally for what
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`18· ·purpose you were retained as you -- as you understand
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`19· ·it?
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`20· · · · A.· ·I was retained to offer opinions on the
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`21· ·validity of certain claims in the '705 and the '208
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`22· ·patent.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Were you retained to offer any other -- any
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`24· ·other opinions having to do with infringement of those
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`25· ·patents?
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 011
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`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· · · · A.· ·No.· I have not been asked to do that at this
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`·2· ·point.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Were you asked to search for any prior
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`·4· ·art?
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`·5· · · · A.· ·I did identify -- I don't know whether I was
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`·6· ·asked to or I just did it on my own initiative, but I
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`·7· ·did identify several -- several pieces of prior art on
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`·8· ·my own as well as some of the art that counsel had
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`·9· ·provided to me.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the prior art that you identified,
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`11· ·do you know if that's been relied on in the IPRs?
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`12· · · · A.· ·I believe that the documents that -- relied
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`13· ·upon in the IPRs are the ones that were identified by
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`14· ·counsel.· There's some other prior art that I used to
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`15· ·confirm some of my opinions that I discovered on my own.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So have those documents been identified
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`17· ·in your report as documents you relied on?
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`18· · · · A.· ·They've been identified in my report as
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`19· ·documents that I reviewed.· They're identified in my
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`20· ·report as documents that I reviewed, but I didn't rely
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`21· ·upon them for my opinion.· Where -- where they're cited
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`22· ·in my report, they're indicated as something that
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`23· ·confirmed my understanding.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you could just pull out your
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`25· ·report, and let's just use your report for the '705
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 012
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`·1· ·patent for now.
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`·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.· I've got that here in front of me.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So that's Exhibit 1005 in the
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`·4· ·01006 IPR matter.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Starting on page Roman numeral number 1, or
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`·6· ·small letter i, you have an exhibit list?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·Let me -- oh, yes, I'm sorry.· I see that.
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`·8· ·It's actually -- yeah, okay.· There are a couple of
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`·9· ·Roman Numeral i's.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Right.
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`11· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I see it.
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`12· · · · Q.· ·I think it's the fourth page of the document,
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`13· ·but...
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`14· · · · · · ·And then on page 7, paragraph 27 of your
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`15· ·report, there is a section titled "Materials Reviewed,"
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`16· ·and what you say essentially is that you reviewed all of
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`17· ·the documents identified on your exhibit list here.
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`18· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· To be clear, I reviewed them all in the
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`19· ·course of preparing my report back in May.· I'm more or
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`20· ·less familiar with them as of a couple days ago before
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`21· ·this deposition.· But --
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`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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`23· · · · A.· ·I did -- I did review them all in the course
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`24· ·of preparing my report.
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`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So are the -- the documents you just
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 013
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`·1· ·spoke of earlier about the prior art documents you had
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`·2· ·found, are those identified in the exhibit list here
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`·3· ·somewhere or somewhere else in the report?
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`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, I believe they are.· Just an example is
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`·5· ·Exhibit 1008, and there are a couple others that are in
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`·6· ·here.· But, yeah, they are -- they appear to all be
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`·7· ·identified in that list.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So Exhibit 1008, that's a document that
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`·9· ·you found?
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`10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·And how did you find it?· Just Googling or
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`12· ·some other method?
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`13· · · · A.· ·Oh, I have a number of different search tools.
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`14· ·I have an account with IEEE Xplore.· I have an account
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`15· ·with Nexis.· I have accounts with ABI/INFORM, Compendex.
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`16· ·A few others that have both engineering and general
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`17· ·magazine kinds of content.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·And how did you search?· Just using certain
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`19· ·search terms?
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`20· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· So the search tools that I have allow
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`21· ·me to search by subject area, by keywords, and also by
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`22· ·descriptors.· So I use various combinations of them.
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you do anything to prep for today's
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`24· ·deposition, Mr. Lipoff?
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`25· · · · A.· ·Yes, I did.· I took a look -- refreshed myself
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 014
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`·1· ·on some of the key documents in the case -- my
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`·2· ·declaration, the prior art references -- and I also met
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`·3· ·with counsel over the last couple of days.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·And is that, say, met with Mr. Devkar?
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`·5· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you met with him on two occasions,
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`·7· ·you say?
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`·8· · · · A.· ·Well, yesterday and twice last week.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long -- how long did you meet
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`10· ·with him on each of those occasions?
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`11· · · · A.· ·It varied from a few hours, two to three
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`12· ·hours.· Something on that order.
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Was anyone else present during those
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`14· ·meetings?
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`15· · · · A.· ·No.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Other than Mr. Devkar, have you had any
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`17· ·conversations with anyone regarding your deposition
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`18· ·today?
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`19· · · · A.· ·I have not.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Have you had any conversations, other than
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`21· ·with counsel, with anyone regarding this matter in
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`22· ·general?
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`23· · · · A.· ·You mean over the last couple days?
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`24· · · · Q.· ·No.· Actually since you've been retained.
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`25· · · · A.· ·Well, since I started working on the case,
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 015
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`·1· ·I've talked with other -- other attorneys at Morgan
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`·2· ·Lewis, but no one else.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·No one other than counsel?
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`·4· · · · A.· ·No.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, Mr. Lipoff, you work for a firm
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`·6· ·called IP Action Partners Inc.; is that right?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·Are you the founder of that firm?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I am the president and sole employee.
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`10· ·It's a Subchapter S corporation.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And when did you start IP Action
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`12· ·Partners?
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`13· · · · A.· ·About 12 years ago.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·And you've been the sole employee for that
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`15· ·entire time?
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`16· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·Have you been employed in any other capacity
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`18· ·over the last 12 years?
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`19· · · · A.· ·I've done some work for the Clark County
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`20· ·schools system as a substitute teacher from time to time
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`21· ·a couple times, but that's all, yeah.
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`22· · · · · · ·(Court reporter requested clarification.)
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`23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Clark County.
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`24· ·BY MR. RYAN:
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`25· · · · Q.· ·So what type of services does IP Action
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`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 016
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`·1· ·Partners offer?
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`·2· · · · A.· ·Provide contract engineering, technology
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`·3· ·assessment, and litigation support services.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·And when you say "litigation support
`
`·5· ·services," you mean acting as an expert witness or
`
`·6· ·otherwise analyzing patent infringement or validity
`
`·7· ·matters?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·Yes.· Also, I've worked on -- I should say I
`
`·9· ·included in that other types of intellectual
`
`10· ·property-related activities such as reviewing patent
`
`11· ·portfolios of some of my clients and assisting in some
`
`12· ·cases with prosecution, filing of the patents.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·How much of your work involves the litigation
`
`14· ·support services in your best estimate as a matter of
`
`15· ·percent?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·So included with that is the other IP-related
`
`17· ·matters, but probably about 80 percent of my activity,
`
`18· ·and the other percent is for commercial clients that
`
`19· ·are -- where intellectual property is not an issue.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·So do you have ongoing -- and I'll just say,
`
`21· ·nonintellectual -- well, let me say.· So 80 percent of
`
`22· ·what you do is the litigation services-type work, and
`
`23· ·then 20 percent is general consulting work?· Is that
`
`24· ·fair to say?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· I think that's a fair characterization,
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 017
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· ·yes.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have -- have you -- do you
`
`·3· ·have general consulting work ongoing now?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·I have a project which is nominally --
`
`·5· ·nominally over but not closed, so they may or may not
`
`·6· ·come back to me for some follow-on, but I do have one
`
`·7· ·that just ended at the end of January, yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So according to your CV, you've published
`
`·9· ·several papers; is that right?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·And in paragraph 12 of your declaration, you
`
`12· ·mention an example from the fall of 2000.· Is that your
`
`13· ·most recent publication?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·I don't think so.· The -- I guess the best
`
`15· ·way -- well, so I know that there has been subsequent
`
`16· ·ones.· I don't know that I can enumerate them, but I
`
`17· ·published a number of things more recently in the IEEE
`
`18· ·Consumer Electronics Magazine, for example, which I've
`
`19· ·recently found with a search of IEEE Xplore.
`
`20· · · · · · ·And I have a pre-publication which is actually
`
`21· ·online at IEEE Xplore -- not yet appearing in the
`
`22· ·magazine, but it's online -- scheduled for print
`
`23· ·publication in May.· But that went off just a couple
`
`24· ·weeks ago on disruptive technologies.
`
`25· ·BY MR. RYAN:
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 018
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·So in paragraph 12 of your declaration, you
`
`·2· ·say:· "A listing of my publications is included as part
`
`·3· ·of my CV."
`
`·4· · · · · · ·And, again, just looking at your CV, I don't
`
`·5· ·really see anything that looks like a list of
`
`·6· ·publications.
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Unfortunately, that's one of the -- my
`
`·8· ·CV is one of the hard copy documents that I don't have
`
`·9· ·here in front of me.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`11· · · · A.· ·But it may have been an error on my part not
`
`12· ·to attach it because -- when I furnished it to counsel
`
`13· ·because I -- my CV is in a form of general background
`
`14· ·and then a bullet list of relevant projects from my
`
`15· ·50 years of working as an engineer, and then I have a
`
`16· ·separate page of publications that should have been
`
`17· ·attached to my CV.· I can't confirm it since I don't
`
`18· ·have Exhibit 1006 in front of me.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I just dropped 1006 in the chat.· Do
`
`20· ·you see that?· Are you able to open it from there?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Yeah, hold on.· Let me -- I don't have the
`
`22· ·chat window open, but let me -- let me see if I can open
`
`23· ·it.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·We don't need to spend a ton of time on this,
`
`25· ·but if you just want to take a quick look and see if you
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 019
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
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`·1· ·think there's something missing from your CV.
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Hold on.· I guess I have to -- I
`
`·3· ·haven't done this before.· It looks like I have to save
`
`·4· ·it to my desktop first.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· And then close the Zoom window, and --
`
`·7· ·okay.· I see on it my desktop.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·Can you still hear -- still hear me?
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· Okay.· I closed the Zoom window, but I
`
`11· ·didn't shut down Zoom.· So I'm scrolling to the end of
`
`12· ·this.
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. DEVKAR:· And, Andy, just while he's doing
`
`14· ·that, just a housekeeping matter, are we going to call
`
`15· ·this Exhibit 1 for the deposition?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. RYAN:· No.· I'm comfortable with just
`
`17· ·identifying them on the record by their existing exhibit
`
`18· ·numbers.
`
`19· · · · · · ·MR. DEVKAR:· Okay.
`
`20· ·BY MR. RYAN:
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· So this is Exhibit 1006 in both of
`
`22· ·the IPRs, or actually all three of the IPRs that
`
`23· ·we're -- that we're talking about today.
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Okay.· So I see -- I see the main body of my
`
`25· ·CV, and I see what's attached is a list of litigation
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 020
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· ·support projects.· And I'm scrolling to the end.· And it
`
`·2· ·looks like there is no -- there is no separate list of
`
`·3· ·publications other than what's in that -- the main body
`
`·4· ·of my CV.· So...
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you -- can you estimate how many
`
`·6· ·publications you've had over the last ten years?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Oh, probably -- well, in the category of those
`
`·8· ·that were eventually published in some hard copy
`
`·9· ·publication, probably about 20 or so; counting
`
`10· ·PowerPoint presentations and so forth that may have been
`
`11· ·published as part of conference proceedings, maybe
`
`12· ·another 10 or 20.· I have on my -- on my website a link
`
`13· ·which automatically runs a Google search and that lists
`
`14· ·all of my publications, if you click on it.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. Lipoff, in your prior work as an
`
`16· ·expert witness, do you know if you've ever been
`
`17· ·disqualified as an expert?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Like a Daubert challenge or something like
`
`19· ·that?
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · A.· ·No, I have not.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if any part of your testimony has
`
`23· ·ever been excluded for any reason?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't think it's -- I've ever had any
`
`25· ·of my testimony excluded, but just to make sure I'm
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 021
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
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`·1· ·fully answering your question, there was a case where I
`
`·2· ·served as a -- as a witness on damages where the judge
`
`·3· ·issued -- I think it was called a remittitur, or
`
`·4· ·something like that, that instructed the jury to award
`
`·5· ·damages that were the lower of the range of numbers that
`
`·6· ·I was -- I mentioned during my direct examination.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·And let's come back to the topic of the
`
`·8· ·materials that you've considered.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·Are you aware of the IPRs filed by Apple
`
`10· ·against the patents we're talking about today that are
`
`11· ·co-pending with the current IPR?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I'm aware that there is some other
`
`13· ·ongoing litigation.· Yes.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you aware that there are actual
`
`15· ·other ongoing IPRs?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·I am aware, yes.
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you reviewed any of the materials
`
`18· ·from those IPRs?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Not in the preparation of my -- my declaration
`
`20· ·other than the claim construction orders that I've
`
`21· ·listed as the exhibits in my -- in my exhibit list.· But
`
`22· ·prior to this declaration, I have looked at some
`
`23· ·excerpts from some documents from those cases.· Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We'll talk about the claim construction
`
`25· ·in a little bit.· But...
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 022
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`·1· · · · · · ·So let me understand.· So are you saying that
`
`·2· ·since the time that you signed your declaration, you've
`
`·3· ·looked at some of the materials in the Apple IPRs?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·To be clear, I have them cited in my exhibit
`
`·5· ·list.· I -- I don't -- I think that they were actually
`
`·6· ·district court materials.· I just want to make sure.
`
`·7· ·Exhibit 1009 is a district court claim construction
`
`·8· ·order, as is Exhibit 1010.· And there was also another
`
`·9· ·document, the infringement allegations, Exhibit 1020,
`
`10· ·which I did look at as well.· And Exhibit 1021, which I
`
`11· ·believe are also in the district court case.
`
`12· · · · · · ·So I don't believe I have in my materials
`
`13· ·relied upon any -- any of the IPR -- other IPR
`
`14· ·proceedings, which I looked at prior to preparing my
`
`15· ·report.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the materials you have listed in
`
`17· ·your exhibit list are materials you relied on prior to
`
`18· ·the time you signed your report?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you -- have you reviewed any of
`
`21· ·the materials in the Apple IPRs since that time?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And why did you do that?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·They were documents that counsel provided to
`
`25· ·me that -- suggested that I look at prior to this
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 023
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
`
`·1· ·examination today.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you tell me what those documents
`
`·3· ·were?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·I don't have a complete recollection of them,
`
`·5· ·but in general, they were documents that were filed by
`
`·6· ·CPC in opposition to the petition, and I believe they
`
`·7· ·were related to the IPR, although I think at least one
`
`·8· ·of them was a -- a request for summary judgment which
`
`·9· ·was probably a district court kind of proceedings.· But
`
`10· ·they -- they contained this patent owner that were
`
`11· ·related to validity of those patents, and I'm sorry I
`
`12· ·can't -- I can't recall whether they were IPR documents
`
`13· ·or district court documents because I -- I don't have
`
`14· ·copies of them.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Why don't you have copies of them?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·I have them in my email somewhere, but I
`
`17· ·don't -- I don't have a hard copy here in front of me.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·About when did you look at these documents?
`
`19· ·Do you recall?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Over the last week or so, yes, in the course
`
`21· ·of the meetings I had with counsel.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall if you reviewed any materials
`
`23· ·prepared by Apple's expert in the Apple IPRs?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·I think the only knowledge I have of that is
`
`25· ·in the -- where positions from Apple's experts were
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 024
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
`
`·1· ·referenced in the documents that I looked at, but I --
`
`·2· ·all the documents that I looked at were -- were
`
`·3· ·CPC-authored documents.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever spoken with Apple's expert?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·I have not.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Do you know who Apple's expert is?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·I believe he was identified in some of the
`
`·8· ·documents I looked at, but I don't recall the name, and
`
`·9· ·it was not a name that suggested that it was somebody
`
`10· ·that I knew.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever done any work for Apple,
`
`12· ·Mr. Lipoff?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·In litigation support-type work?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·That's correct.· I believe -- I'm sorry. I
`
`16· ·didn't know if you were about to ask another question.
`
`17· ·I just wanted to be helpful here.
`
`18· · · · · · ·I believe that's probably identified in the
`
`19· ·document that was attached to my CV.· There's probably
`
`20· ·some -- some Apple cases that are in there.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you worked for Apple as an expert
`
`22· ·witness or some other type of litigation support, it was
`
`23· ·identified in your CV?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Do you know if anyone at ASSA ABLOY ever
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 025
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
`
`
`
`·1· ·talked to anyone at Apple about your services as an
`
`·2· ·expert witness?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·I'm not aware of any such discussion, no.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So shifting gears a little bit to the
`
`·5· ·'705 and '208 patents themselves, so is it your
`
`·6· ·understanding that those two patents are related?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes.· That's my understanding.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what exactly is your understanding?
`
`·9· ·How are they related to --
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Well, they have essentially the same
`
`11· ·specification, slightly different page numbering, but
`
`12· ·different claims, and they -- they claim priority to
`
`13· ·the -- the same -- the same date.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·What's your understanding as to how the claims
`
`15· ·differ between the '208 and '705 patents?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·They're -- I don't -- simplify them, but I
`
`17· ·think generally speaking, the claims are largely one for
`
`18· ·one with the exception that the '208 patent is a
`
`19· ·means-plus-function, it's written in means-plus-function
`
`20· ·language, where the '705 patent is -- perhaps has one or
`
`21· ·two means-plus-function claims but is largely devoid of
`
`22· ·means-plus-function language.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·And does the presence of the
`
`24· ·means-plus-function language in the '208 patent affect
`
`25· ·your opinion on validity in any way?
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 026
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·Well, not being an attorney, but my
`
`·2· ·understanding is that a means-plus-function claim, to be
`
`·3· ·valid and not be indefinite, requires that you identify
`
`·4· ·a structure and a function associated with the claim.
`
`·5· ·And so that was part of my analysis of my opinion on the
`
`·6· ·'208 claims.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· But just -- for example, one of the
`
`·8· ·prior art references you rely on is the Bianco
`
`·9· ·reference, right?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Do you apply Bianco to the claims of the '705
`
`12· ·patent any differently than you apply them to the '208
`
`13· ·patent?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. DEVKAR:· Objection.
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, with respect to what we
`
`16· ·just discussed about the means-plus-function, with
`
`17· ·respect to the '208 patent, I looked for corresponding
`
`18· ·function and structure in Bianco in order to reach an
`
`19· ·opinion as to whether or not it was invalidating prior
`
`20· ·art.
`
`21· · · · · · ·(Court reporter requested clarification.)
`
`22· · · · · · ·MR. DEVKAR:· I tried to say, "Objection.
`
`23· ·Form."
`
`24· ·BY MR. RYAN:
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Lipoff, I'm going to refer you back again
`
`CPC Ex. 2034 – Page 027
`ASSA ABLOY AB v. CPC Patent Technologies Pty Ltd.
`IPR2022-01006
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`
`
`·1· ·to your declaration in the '705 case --
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·-- Exhibit 1005 in that case.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Does the declaration contain the opinions that
`
`·5· ·you've formulated with regard to the '705 patent for
`
`·6· ·purposes of the IPR?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I'll just make sure I heard you
`
`·8· ·correctly.· Yes, my '705 declaration is -- represents my
`
`·9· ·opinion with respect to the '705 IPR.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And on the final page, can you confirm
`
`11· ·that that's your signature?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Yes, it's -- page 137 is my signature, yes.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And it's dated May 31st, 2022; correct?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I know we've touched on this
`
`16· ·already, but it's your testimony that you were retained
`
`17· ·to work on this matter about four months prior to that
`
`18· ·date?· That's your -- that's your recollection?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Yeah, I don't know if
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