`
`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen,
`Ph.D.
`
`Date: March 17, 2023
`Case: Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., et al. -v- Smart Mobile Technologies, LLC
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2018
`Page 1 of 121
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ----------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ----------------------
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SMART MOBILE TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
` Patent Owner.
` ----------------------
` Case: IPR2022-01005
` U.S. Patent No. 9,084,291
` ----------------------
`
` Deposition of MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, Ph.D.
` Conducted Virtually
` Friday, March 17, 2023
` 8:33 a.m. PST
`
`Reported by: LORI STOKES, RPR, CSR No. 12732
`Job No.: 483559
`Pages: 1 - 92
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`2
`
` The deposition of MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, Ph.D., was
`taken virtually on behalf of Patent Owner, beginning at
`8:33 a.m., Pacific Time, on March 17, 2023, before LORI
`STOKES, RPR, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 12732.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`3
`
`APPEARANCES VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE:
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER
` SKIERMONT DERBY LLP
` BY: REX HWANG
` Attorney at Law
` 633 West Fifth Street
` Suite 5800
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` 213.788.4500
`-and-
` GRAVES & SHAW LLP
` BY: PHILIP GRAVES
` Attorney at Law
` 355 S. Grand Avenue
` Suite 2450
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` 213.204.5101
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`4
`
`APPEARANCES VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE (continued):
`
`FOR PETITIONER SAMSUNG
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` BY: AAMIR A. KAZI
` SANGKI PARK (Minneapolis)
` Attorneys at Law
` 1180 Peachtree Street, N.E.
` 21st Floor
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` 404.892.5005
`
`REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Ky Shanklin
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`5
`
` INDEX
`WITNESS EXAMINATION
`MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, Ph.D.
` BY MR. HWANG ............................7
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`6
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` EXHIBITS
`
`None offered.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`7
`
` March 17, 2023 | 8:33 a.m.
`
` MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, Ph.D.,
`having been administered an oath, was examined and
`testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Jensen.
` A Good morning.
` Q Can I ask where you are located this morning.
` A Yes. I'm in Provo, Utah.
` Q And can you please spell your name for the
`record.
` A Yes. My first name is Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L;
`middle is Allen, A-L-L-E-N, last; name is Jensen,
`J-E-N-S-E-N.
` Q And you understand that your testimony today
`is going to be provided under oath, correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And is there any reason that you can't give
`your full and accurate testimony today?
` A No, sir.
` Q And you've been deposed before, correct?
` A Yes, I have.
`
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`8
`
` Q How many times have you been deposed so far
`with respect to -- I would call them the SMT matters?
` A The Smart Mobile Technologies matters.
` This will represent my third, so I've been
`deposed two times previously.
` Q Got it. And that was within the past couple
`months, correct?
` A Yes. Since the new year.
` Q And before then, how many times have you been
`deposed in general?
` A Roughly eight.
` Q So you know the basic ground rules. I'll go
`over some of them with you now.
` If you need a break, please let me know.
`We'll probably take frequent breaks. I'm not expecting
`this deposition to go all day, so that's another thing
`to keep in mind.
` With that being said, if there's a question
`pending, I would ask that you finish answering the
`question before taking a break.
` Do you understand?
` A I do.
` Q And if there's a question that you don't
`understand, please let me know; otherwise, I'll assume
`that you understood the question that was asked.
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`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2018
`Page 9 of 121
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`9
`
` Do you understand?
` A I understand.
` MR. HWANG: And can we pull up Exhibit 1003,
`it should be DOC 2, and have that shared.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Dr. Jensen, do you see Exhibit 1003 on your
`screen?
` A Yes.
` Q And you submitted a declaration with respect
`to what I'm going to refer to as the '291 patent,
`correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And then just to take a step back, U.S. Patent
`Number 9,084,291, if I refer to that as the '291 patent,
`you'll know what I'm talking about, correct?
` A Yes, sir, I will.
` Q And then if I refer to the declaration that
`you submitted with respect to the '291 patent as your
`declaration, will you know what I'm talking about?
` A Yes, I will.
` Q And what we have on the screen as Exhibit 1003
`should be your declaration.
` If you want, you can flip through real quick,
`but I'll represent to you that it is a copy of your
`declaration in this proceeding.
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`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2018
`Page 10 of 121
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`10
`
` A Okay. I don't have control to flip through,
`but this is certainly the first page of it.
` THE REMOTE TECHNICIAN: If you would like
`control, I can give you access real quick, sir. One
`moment.
` Here you go. Just click the screen, and you
`should have access.
` THE WITNESS: I do have access, and I'll just
`scroll through very quickly to make sure this is the
`complete declaration.
` Based on that quick scroll through, I believe
`that is the entirety of my declaration.
` MR. HWANG: Okay. And then can we pull up --
`it should be labeled DOC 1.
` (Reporter clarification.)
` (Short discussion off the
` stenographic record.)
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q What you see on the screen right now is, I
`believe, Exhibit 1001 to this proceeding.
` And I see you're scrolling through it.
` A Yes, sir.
` Q To the best of your knowledge, is this an
`accurate copy of the '291 patent?
` A Yes, sir.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`11
`
` Q And what did you do to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` MR. KAZI: Hold on one second, Dr. Jensen.
`You can answer the question. But I'm going to structure
`you not to reveal any communications you had with
`counsel.
` But other than that, you can answer the
`question.
` THE WITNESS: Understood. Thank you.
` So my preparation has consisted of reading
`through the documents, the main documents; my
`declaration, of course; this patent and some of the
`references that I used; as well as conversations with
`counsel.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Anything else?
` A No.
` Q And how much time did you spend preparing for
`today's deposition?
` A I would estimate ten hours.
` Q And do you stand by the opinions in your
`declaration?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q So no additions or changes at this moment?
` A No, sir.
`
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`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2018
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`12
`
` Q Do you recall any facts or opinions that were
`put in your declaration provided to you from someone
`else, that you did not conceive?
` MR. KAZI: Objection to the form.
` THE WITNESS: No, sir. My declaration
`represents my opinions.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Did you write your declaration?
` A I did. There was some assistance from
`counsel, particularly in preparing figures.
` Q Okay. Any other assistance from counsel?
` A There were, of course, inputs on things like
`the law and those kinds of things. Just to ensure that
`I was representing that well and understood it well.
` There were other times where there was
`collaboration. But ultimately, I edited it, and
`everything in there is my opinion and my words.
` Q Okay.
` MR. HWANG: And can we pull up your
`declaration, Document 2, again.
` Can we go to paragraph 21 of your declaration.
` THE WITNESS: Do you want me to scroll there?
` MR. HWANG: You know what, can I get control?
`It might be faster.
` THE REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Sure. One moment.
`
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`13
`
` If you click, you should have access now, sir.
` MR. HWANG: I do not seem to have...
` THE REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Try now.
` MR. HWANG: There we go.
` Bear with me. This -- there seems to be a
`huge lag.
` (Short discussion off the
` stenographic record.)
` MR. HWANG: Ky, if you could please go to -- I
`believe it's page 11 of the declaration.
` MR. KAZI: Counsel, if I may make a
`suggestion. I think everybody has this document
`locally, so maybe we can just do it locally, too, if
`that speeds the process up. It's up to you how you
`proceed, obviously.
` MR. HWANG: That's a fair point. Let's try
`this and see how it goes.
` MR. KAZI: Okay.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q So do you see paragraph 21 of your declaration
`on the screen?
` A Yes.
` Q And you identify a number of references in
`this paragraph, correct?
` A I do.
`
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`14
`
` Q And you reviewed all these references?
` A Yes. At least the relevant parts.
` Q Okay. Did you obtain these references on your
`own, or were they provided to you?
` A I was aware of the Raleigh reference. There
`were others -- we would have to go through one by one of
`the other references, which ones that I was aware of or
`discovered and which ones counsel provided.
` But it was a mix of my own searching or things
`I was aware of, and counsel.
` Q So some of these documents were discovered by
`counsel, correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And you mentioned something about "relevant
`parts."
` How did you know what relevant parts to read?
`Was that provided to you by counsel as well?
` A No. All I meant to suggest by that was some
`of the supporting references are books or longer things,
`where I went specifically through the table of contents
`to find discussions that were relevant to the topic in
`my declaration, as opposed to reading the entirety of
`the book.
` Q I see.
` So with respect to the references in
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`15
`
`paragraph 1, with at least some of the references, you
`did not read the entire reference, correct?
` A That's correct.
` Q And I see that you cited to some web pages,
`for example, on page 13. Some websites.
` Did you discover those websites?
` A I believe in every one of these cases, I
`discovered these websites.
` Q And then let's go to page 14.
` Same question, for example -- strike that.
` Same question with what you're seeing on the
`screen right now on page 14, in terms of what's in
`paragraph 21.
` Did you discover those references?
` A It's been a long time. My recollection is,
`for example, the Part 11 Wireless LAN Median Access
`Control, the GSM Technical Specification.
` I remember finding those. I'm less confident
`on the other two there, whether I found those or counsel
`identified those to me.
` Q For example, I see the IBM Dictionary of
`Computing reference there.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you have a copy of that dictionary?
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`16
`
` A No, I don't have a copy. I have access to a
`quite extensive library here on my campus. So that's
`not the issue.
` I just don't recall at this time if that was
`one of the books that I identified or not.
` MR. HWANG: Move to strike as nonresponsive.
`And I'm doing that early because it's important to
`establish a question-and-answer session here.
` And I want to make sure that even with the
`simple questions, you're answering my question.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Do you have a copy of the IBM dictionary in
`your possession?
` A Not currently, no.
` Q Have you ever had a copy of that dictionary in
`your possession?
` A I just don't recall.
` Q Are there any documents you reviewed with
`respect to this IPR proceeding that's not identified in
`paragraph 21?
` A Not that I recall, no.
` Q And again, I'm just trying to figure out the
`scope of the work that you've done for this proceeding.
` Let's go back to page 11 of your declaration.
` Do you see the first reference there, it's
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
`
`17
`
`U.S. Patent 6,144,711?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q If I refer to that as Raleigh, will you know
`what I'm talking about?
` A Yes, sir, that's fine.
` Q The next patent is U.S. Patent 5,854,985.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q If I refer to that as Sainton, will you know
`what I'm talking about?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q Okay. And for this deposition, let's go to
`U.S. Patent Number 6,600,734 to Gernert.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And if I refer to that as Gernert, will you
`know what I'm talking about?
` A You cut out, Counsel. Did you finish --
` Q Let me reask the question.
` If I refer to U.S. Patent Number 6,600,734 as
`Gernert, will you understand what reference I'm -- what
`document I'm referring to?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And as you were drafting your declaration, how
`much time do you estimate that you reviewed Raleigh?
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`18
`
` A You know, it's been a long time ago. Many
`hours. I don't recall how many.
` Q More than five?
` A Well, the initial review would have been on
`the order of three to five.
` Of course then as I wrote, to ensure that I
`was understanding, more time.
` Q Is that answer going to apply for Sainton and
`Gernert?
` A Yes, generally true. Yes.
` Q Is that generally true for all of the
`references in paragraph 21 that you cite there?
` A Again, no. Some of these were much shorter --
`maybe grabbing a definition or something like that,
`which would have been fewer hours on some of those
`references.
` Q Have you reviewed any other -- strike that.
` Have you reviewed any documents relating to
`any District Court lawsuits involving the '291 patent?
` A When you say "lawsuits," nothing outside of
`any documents related to this IPR, that I'm aware of.
` Q I'll give you an example.
` Have you reviewed any infringement contentions
`relating to the '291 patent?
` A Not that I recall. Any infringement
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`19
`
`contentions, no.
` Q What about invalidity contentions related to
`the '291 patent?
` A I don't recall reviewing those.
` Q Did you assist counsel in preparing any
`invalidity contentions for a District Court matter
`relating to the '291 patent?
` A No, sir.
` MR. KAZI: Hold on a second. I'm going to
`object to that question and instruct the witness not to
`answer.
` If you can lay foundation as to relevance, or
`if you can -- I believe it gets into work product and
`it's irrelevant outside the scope of the deposition.
` So if you can lay some foundation, obviously
`you can proceed. But I think as asked, I can't
`unmention that from protecting the privilege.
` MR. HWANG: Okay. Counsel, a portion of that
`was a speaking objection.
` I understand what you're saying. I don't
`think the fact that he assisted or not would be
`privileged or protected as work product. But it's not a
`huge point.
` But I think I would caution about speaking
`objections.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`20
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`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q So in terms of documents that you reviewed,
`you cannot recall any document --
` MR. KAZI: Counsel, sorry. If you direct some
`statements to him, I'm entitled to respond. And that
`was not a speaking objection. When you ask a question
`that relates to privilege, I'm allowed to make that
`objection.
` MR. HWANG: It's the relevance part I'm
`speaking to. You can say relevance. Everything after
`that was a speaking objection.
` MR. KAZI: But the question itself was
`directed to privilege.
` So to the extent you're asking a question that
`calls for some privileged information, I'm allowed to
`make my objection, and I'm allowed to say --
` MR. HWANG: What privilege are you asserting?
` MR. KAZI: It's the federal rules that
`communications with an expert that's not relied upon are
`not discoverable under the federal rules in a
`litigation. And you're asking for that information in
`this proceeding, and so it's privileged in other
`litigation, and there's no relevance to it here.
` The default federal rules --
` MR. HWANG: I disagree with your definition of
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`21
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`privilege. But handily, it's largely irrelevant.
` I'm trying to get at what documents Dr. Jensen
`has reviewed, which is discoverable here. I think we'll
`all agree with that.
` MR. KAZI: Right. But that's not what you
`asked.
` MR. HWANG: Okay. Can we just stop arguing?
`Can I proceed?
` MR. KAZI: Whenever you're ready to proceed,
`proceed. I'm not arguing; you're arguing.
` MR. HWANG: Okay.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Dr. Jensen, to the best of your knowledge,
`have you reviewed any documents relating to the District
`Court proceeding involving the '291 patent?
` A No, sir.
` Q And another example, have you reviewed any
`claim construction filings relating to the '291 patent?
` A Not that I recall.
` Q Did you review any IPR documents that are not
`specifically referenced in your declaration?
` (Simultaneous cross-talk.)
` MR. KAZI: Sorry. Go ahead, Counsel.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Did you hear the question, Dr. Jensen?
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`22
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` A Yeah. But there was -- I heard: "Did you
`review any IPR documents not referenced in your
`declaration?"
` Q Yeah, let's start there.
` MR. KAZI: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: So prior to writing my
`declaration, I did not review any other IPR documents
`that I can recall.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q And after?
` MR. KAZI: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: I have seen the patent owner
`preliminary response. I have seen the institution
`decision, as examples.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q And that's what I was getting at.
` Anything else?
` A I have seen counsel's petition. Those are the
`things I recall.
` Q Did you review patent owner's preliminary
`response in preparing for this deposition?
` A I have briefly looked at it, yes.
` Q How much time did you spend reviewing it?
` A Thirty minutes.
` Q How about the institution decision? Did you
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`23
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`review that in preparing for this deposition?
` A Yes, I have reviewed it.
` Q And how long did you spend reviewing that?
` A Maybe 15, 20 minutes.
` Q And then you provided a CV in this action,
`correct, in this matter?
` A Did you say CV?
` Q CV, yes.
` A Yes, sir, I did.
` Q Is that up-to-date?
` A It's up-to-date as of the time I filed this
`declaration, which was sometime last year. So it's
`probably marginally out-of-date now.
` Q And to the best of your knowledge, is it
`accurate?
` A Yes. As of the time it was submitted, it is
`accurate, yes.
` Q And was there anything missing from the CV
`that you are aware of?
` A Not at the time. Not that I am aware of.
` MR. HWANG: Can we go to paragraph 27 of your
`declaration.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I see it.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q In paragraph 27 and 28, you, as a general
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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`24
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`matter, talk about the level of ordinary skill in the
`art.
` Is that a fair statement?
` A Yes. That's a fair characterization of what I
`write here.
` Q And then in paragraph 27 of your declaration,
`it includes your opinion regarding the experience and
`education of a POSITA, correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And did you apply that opinion to your
`opinion -- strike that.
` Did you apply your opinions in paragraph 27 in
`forming your invalidity opinions later on?
` MR. KAZI: Objection to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I -- yeah. I applied this
`definition of a POSITA as I represented what a POSITA
`would have known in forming -- in articulating my
`opinions later in the report.
`BY MR. HWANG:
` Q Did you come up with this -- did you come up
`with the opinions in paragraph 27 of your declaration?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q And for example, did you decide on the "at
`least two years of experience" referenced in
`paragraph 27 of your declaration?
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 17, 2023
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` A Yes, I did.
` Q And you may have talked about this in other
`depositions, but when did you graduate college?
` A So for clarification, which degree? The
`terminal degree or bachelor's degree?
` Q Let's start with bachelor's.
` A So bachelor's degree would have been in 1990.
` Q 1990.
` And then after you got your bachelor's degree,
`what did you do? Did you get further education? Or did
`you work for a little bit?
` A Further -- I went directly into further
`education.
` Q Okay. What did you do after you got your
`bachelor's degree, in terms of your education?
` A Education was a master's degree received in
`1991 and a doctorate received in 1994.
` Q So you would have received your doctorate
`before the critical date in this proceeding, correct?
` A My recollection of the critical date is 1999,
`so yes, sir.
` Q So you have no personal experience as a POSITA
`as you defined it -- strike that.
` You have no personal experience as a POSITA,
`correct, as you define it?
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