Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen,
`Ph.D.
`
`Date: January 18, 2023
`Case: Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., et al. -v- Smart Mobile Technologies, LLC
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
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`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2006
`Page 1 of 237
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`
`Ph.D.
`
`Date: January 18, 2023
`Case: Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., et al. -v- Smart Mobile Technologies, LLC
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Smart Mobile Technologies LLC, Exhibit 2006
`Page 1 of 237
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ----------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ----------------------
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SMART MOBILE TECHNOLOGIES, LLC
` Patent Owner,
` ----------------------
` Case IPR2022-00766
` U.S. Patent No. 8,824,434
` ----------------------
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
` MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, PhD
` January 18, 2023
`
`Reported by: Susan S. Klinger, RMR-CRR, CSR
`Job No. 478281
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`2
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` January 18, 2023
` 8:32 a.m.
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` Remote Deposition of MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, PhD,
`held remotely before Susan S. Klinger, a
`Registered Merit Reporter and Certified Realtime
`Reporter of the State of Texas.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`Attorneys for Petitioner:
` Aamir A. Kazi, Esquire
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 1180 Peachtree Street NE
` 21st Floor
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` 404.724.2811
` Kasi@fr.com
` Sangki Park, Esquire
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 60 South 6th Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` 612.638.5763
` Spark@fr.com
`Attorneys for Patent Owner:
` Steve Udick, Esquire
` SKIERMONT DERBY, LLP
` 1601 Elm Street, Suite 4400
` Dallas, Texas 75201
` 214.978.6600
` Sudick@skiermontderb.com
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`4
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`A P P E A R A N C E S: (cont.)
`and
` Rex Hwang, Esquire
` SKIERMONT DERBY, LLP
` 633 West Fifth Street, Suite 5800
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` 213.788.4500
` Rhwant@skiermontderby.com
`and
` Philip J. Graves, Esquire
` GRAVES & SHAW, LLP
` 355 s. Grand Avenue, Suit3 2450
` Los Angeles, California 90071
` 213.204.5101
` Pgraves@gravesshaw.com
`
`Also Present:
` Don Lane, PD Tech
` Mike Martinez, PD Tech
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`5
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` I N D E X
`WITNESS PAGE
`MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, PhD
`EXAMINATION BY MR. UDICK 7
`
` E X H I B I T S
`No. Description Page
`Exhibit 1 Jensen declaration 12
`Exhibit 2 U.S. Patent No. 8,824,434 52
`Exhibit 3 U.S. Patent No. 4,989,230 68
`Exhibit 4 StarTAC 3000 Service Manual 84
`Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent 5,297,203 108
`Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent 5,590,133 133
`Exhibit 7 European Patent Application 149
` No. 0 660 626 A2
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Thank you to everyone
`for joining this proceeding, which we anticipate
`will run smoothly. Please remember to speak
`slowly and do your best not to talk over one
`another.
` Please be aware we are recording this
`proceeding for backup purposes. Any off the
`record discussions should be had away from the
`computer. Please remember to mute your mic for
`those conversations. Please have your video
`enabled to help the reporter identify who is
`speaking.
` If you are unable to connect with video
`and are connecting via phone, please identify
`yourself each time before speaking.
` We will provide a complimentary unedited
`recording of this deposition with the purchase of
`a transcript. I apologize in advance for any
`technical related interruptions, thank you.
` MICHAEL ALLEN JENSEN, PhD,
`having been first duly sworn testified as follows:
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
`
`7
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. UDICK:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Jensen.
` A Good morning, counsel.
` Q Could you please state your name and work
`address for the record?
` A Yes. My full name is Michael Allen
`Jensen. My work address is 240 Engineering
`Building, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah.
` Q Great. And I believe from your
`declaration you have -- you have been deposed
`before; is that correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q About how many times?
` A About a half a dozen times.
` Q So it is not a new process to you, but I
`will still go over some of the rules especially in
`the Zoom post travel for deposition world.
` A Okay.
` Q As the -- as the reporter or as the
`technician stated in the read on, one of the
`things we really have to do in this world is
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`8
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`making sure that we -- we give a big pause between
`the questions and answers, so that we're not
`speaking over each other. It is very difficult
`for the reporter to understand that or to capture
`that during the deposition.
` And that we also make sure that responses
`we give are verbal, so head nods don't get
`recorded, head shakes don't get recorded, that we
`verbalize yes or no.
` A Okay.
` Q And we will try to break every hour or so.
`Obviously if you need a break before then, just
`let me know. The only -- the only thing I will
`ask if there is a question pending we -- we finish
`up that question before we -- we take the break.
` A No problem.
` Q And if I ask a question that you don't
`understand, which will inevitably occur today,
`just let me know and I will try to rephrase it,
`okay?
` A Of course.
` Q And if you do answer my question, I am
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`9
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`going to assume that you understood it; is that
`okay?
` A Yes, that is fine.
` Q And just the final wrap-ups, do you
`understand that you are under oath today?
` A I do.
` Q And are you currently taking any
`medication that would affect your ability to give
`-- to testify fully and completely today?
` A No, sir.
` Q Great. About how many expert reports or
`expert declarations have you submitted in
`litigation in the past?
` A Well, as I think you know a number in this
`particular case, I think a half a dozen here.
`I've basically been deposed -- it is similar to
`the number of depositions I've had prior to this
`case, so maybe a half a dozen.
` Q So if we exclude -- if I say SMT for Smart
`Mobile Technologies; is that okay?
` A That is just fine.
` Q Outside of the SMT matters that you
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`10
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`obviously have some declarations on, prior to
`that, you have about six expert reports or
`declarations; is that correct?
` A That's approximate. I didn't do a count,
`but that would be approximate, yes.
` Q Great. And then around the same number of
`depositions?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q Have you ever testified at a trial?
` A No.
` Q What about at a hearing?
` A I gave a tech brief to a judge in one
`case.
` Q Was that along the same or around the same
`time as the claim construction hearing?
` A I don't remember the details of the
`timing. It was not a claim construction hearing.
`It was scheduled just for me to give the judge a
`tech brief.
` Q Understood. Thank you. So we're going to
`spend a lot of time obviously on your declaration
`today. Do you have a printed copy of that in
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`11
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`front of you?
` A I do have a printed copy in front of me as
`a backup, yes.
` Q Okay. Would you -- would you like to
`utilize that? Is that better than reviewing
`something on screen?
` A Well, I have an electronic, a clean
`electronic copy also in front of me, which tends
`to be easier for me to navigate. So if you share,
`that is another way. I -- I think I prefer to
`look at the screen while we're talking. And so I
`think that is my preferred format is the one that
`I have up in my PDF reader right now.
` Q Perfect. So what I will do, then, I will
`-- we will mark your declaration as the first
`exhibit in the deposition. We will put it on
`screen to ensure that the copy that we -- that we
`all agree on is the same one that we're all
`looking at maybe on our own native version. Then
`I think it will be free to kind of review the
`native version that you have stored on your
`computer, the clean copy.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`12
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` Does that work for you?
` A That is -- that is just fine.
` MR. UDICK: And so Mr. Lane, do you mind
`introducing doc 4 and just screen share for that
`one?
` REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Understood, please
`standby.
` (Exhibit 1 marked.)
` Q And Mr. Lane if you could provide
`Dr. Jensen with control.
` A It looks like I have control.
` Q Dr. Jensen, if you would quickly review
`that declaration and let me know that it matches
`both the declaration that was submitted in this
`IPR and the clean version of the declaration that
`you have natively on your computer.
` MR. UDICK: While he's doing that, for the
`record this will be Exhibit 1 or Jensen 1, which
`is marked as Samsung 1003, or instead of marked --
`previously labeled as Samsung 1003.
` THE WITNESS: So based on just a really
`quick review, obviously not detail, this matches
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`13
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`what I submitted and what I -- the native copy I
`have on my screen.
` Q Great. And so I will endeavor to point
`you to where in the declaration I'm referring,
`just obviously so that we can be on the same page.
`The only ask I will have is that if you need to
`find some additional context that is not kind of
`immediately in the next paragraph or the paragraph
`before it, that you just let me know that, hey,
`I've had to go to this other section.
` A Okay.
` Q Does that work?
` A Yes, that is just fine.
` Q Great. And so looking at your
`declaration, did you write this declaration?
` A So I did receive assistance from counsel
`in some of the drafting work and especially some
`of the figures and modifications of figures, but
`this declaration -- I edited everything in this
`declaration, those parts that I didn't write
`myself in the initial draft. And this represents
`my opinion or my opinions.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`14
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` Q Were there parts of the initial draft that
`you wrote yourself?
` A Oh, yes.
` Q What parts were those?
` A A lot of parts. I don't know that I could
`sit here today and say -- we can go through in
`detail, but -- but a great number of this -- a
`great fraction of this I -- I drafted. And then
`other pieces, you know, of course were provided by
`counsel after -- after me sharing with them my
`opinions and then me having a chance to edit some
`of that.
` So if we want to go through in detail we
`can. And I can do my best to recall what I
`drafted and what I did not in the original draft.
` Q Sure. From a broad perspective, do you
`recall there being any major sections or -- or
`bulk pieces that you remember initially drafting?
` A Well, obviously all of the stuff about
`myself I drafted about my qualifications and my
`experience. Things like listing all of the art
`upon which I relied, the references upon which I
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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`15
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`relied, counsel drafted those kinds of things with
`me reviewing it and ensuring it matched what I had
`done.
` Obviously the legal standards, level of
`ordinary skill in the art was something I
`expressed my opinion, but counsel helped to draft
`legal standards. Counsel drafted -- you know, I'm
`not an expert in legal standards.
` Some of the overview things was largely
`done by -- by them and then as we get into sort of
`the -- the kind of the mappings and things, then
`it was a lot more collaborative with me writing
`sections and them writing sections. So I don't --
`that is where it is going to get a little fuzzier
`to my recollection of who did what on the original
`draft.
` Q Sure, understood. That -- that is
`helpful, thank you.
` So you mentioned materials relied on. If
`you would, I believe if we look at paragraph 21 of
`your -- of your declaration and 22 it lists what I
`understand to be the references relied on. Please
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`January 18, 2023
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`take a look at that and let me know.
` A Yeah, paragraph 21, I mean other than, of
`course, the '434 patent itself and the prosecution
`file, history file, these -- yeah, I've reviewed
`this list many times. These are the references
`that I relied on.
` Q Great. And I do note that in 22 it says,
`I have also reviewed some cited supporting
`references and documentation in forming my
`opinions below. The use of the word cited there
`suggests to me that there may be further citations
`within the declaration that are materials that you
`also relied on; is that correct?
` A Yeah. Again, I would have to go back in
`detail on this particular declaration, as you know
`I wrote several. And there were times where in
`those declarations I would just bring some
`supporting reference in which may not appear in
`the list.
` I don't recall in this particular
`declaration if there are any of those or not, but
`yes, that -- that is a practice that I sometimes,
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`17
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`would just bring in a reference to support,
`document an opinion that I would cite there
`without including it in the list similar to the
`list in 21. I just don't recall the details in
`this particular one. We would have to take those
`one-by-one to ensure that I'm precise on that.
` Q That is fair. In reality all I wanted to
`make sure is that anything that you relied on in
`forming your opinion, it is cited in your
`declaration either bulleted in the list or cited
`somewhere else in the declaration; is that
`correct?
` A Unless I made an error or oversight, that
`was absolutely my intention to cite everything
`I've relied on.
` Q And if -- obviously if during the course
`of the deposition you realize that an oversight or
`something occurred, will you let me know?
` A I will.
` Q Great. And in 23, paragraph 23 you
`identify that counsel has informed me that the
`earliest possible priority date to which the
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`challenged claims of the '434 patent are entitled
`is the December 16th, 1996, quote, the critical
`date.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q And it says, I have therefore used that
`critical date in my analysis below; right?
` A Yes.
` Q And what do you mean you have used that
`critical date in your analysis below?
` A It is my understanding and counsel has
`informed me that art that we might use to assess
`the validity of a patent needs to have been in the
`public domain and available before that critical
`date. So that is -- that is the -- that is the
`way I look at that.
` Q Got it. And 26, paragraph 26 kind of is a
`top line of a summary of the conclusions of your
`opinions that are in this declaration; is that
`correct?
` A Yes, sir. That is -- that's right, just a
`short summary.
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` Q And in 23 again, counsel has informed me
`that I should consider these materials through the
`lens of one of ordinary skill in the art related
`to the '434 patent at the time of the earliest
`possible priority date of the '434.
` Do you see that?
` A I do.
` Q And did you -- did you do that?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q Did you consider the materials that you
`relied on through the lens of one of ordinary
`skill in the art related to the '434 patent at the
`time of the -- of the critical date?
` A Yes, sir, I did. And elsewhere in my
`declaration I have given a definition of one of
`ordinary skill in the art. And I used that as a
`lens through which I viewed the patent and the
`prior art that I have -- that I have referenced.
` Q Perfect. And that is actually where we're
`going in 27. 27 identifies the -- the -- your
`definition of person of ordinary skill in the art;
`is that correct?
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` A Yes, sir.
` Q And that is a person that would have a
`bachelor's degree in electrical engineering,
`computer engineering, computer science or related
`field and at least two years of experience related
`to the design or development of wireless
`communication systems or the equivalent. And then
`additional graduate education could substitute for
`professional experience or the converse; correct?
` A Yes, sir.
` Q How did you go about determining what you
`believe to be the level of ordinary skill in the
`art?
` A Well, looking at the '434 patent and what
`it was teaching, the concepts that it was teaching
`and particularly the concepts embodied in the
`claims in the '434 patent.
` And based on my years of experience
`obviously working with graduates in these kinds of
`fields and working with those in industry and
`having my own company that deals with sort of not
`wireless communication systems, but radar systems
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`which are a very close cousin to wireless
`communication systems, just my experience on what
`kind of background it would take for somebody to
`understand the architectures and systems and
`capabilities that were defined in the -- in the
`claims and in the specification of the '434
`patent.
` Q Regarding the references, the prior art
`references that you relied on, did you conduct any
`-- any searches for those pieces of prior art?
` A Yeah, I conducted a lot of searching for
`prior art in this case, yes. So again, I don't
`recall exactly which references I identified and
`which counsel I identified, but yes, I did
`searching and identified many of the references
`that are listed there.
` Q But as -- do you -- when I -- so I'm going
`to use the term prior art references. And those
`are the references that are -- so in 26, Gillig,
`Rose, Billström, Byrne and Wong. I'm going to
`call this the primary references, the ones that
`you base your opinions or you cite primarily for
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
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`your opinions?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you remember if -- if you identified
`any of these primary references in your searches?
` A If I did, the only one would be Billström.
`I don't recall the others. I know I did not
`identify those, Gillig, Rose and the other ones
`listed in paragraph 26.
` Q And what -- what -- from your
`recollection, leads you to believe that Billström
`could have been one that you identified?
` A Just some -- some other work I had been
`doing at the time on the kinds of technologies,
`GSM and -- and, you know, IP kind of layovers on
`GSM and other kinds of cellular technologies that
`I've been working on at the time.
` I had a bunch of references like
`Billström, and I just don't recall if that was one
`that I brought in from some of that other
`experience or if that is one that was found by
`counsel. I just don't recall.
` Q Got it.
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`Transcript of Michael Allen Jensen, Ph.D.
`January 18, 2023
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` A I think that is a typo. It is Billström,
`but it said Billstöm in there, that is a typo.
` Q About how many hours do you believe you
`spent working on your -- on this declaration?
` A That is a great question. I have not done
`an accounting. Overall in the family of patents
`here that I've looked at it has been hundreds of
`hours. I would have to go back and do a detailed
`accounting of how many of those hours were devoted
`to this particular declaration. I just don't have
`that, I'm sorry. Tens of hours, but I'm confident
`in that, but I'm not confident in going into any
`more detail than that.
` Q Understood. And so going to paragraph 30
`under claim construction, you indicate that
`counsel has informed you and you understand that
`the words of the claim should be interpreted as
`they would have been interpreted by one of
`ordinary skill in the art at the time the
`invention was made. And then you -- you then
`reference that the date you will use is the
`earliest priority date or the critical date; is
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`that correct?
` A Yes, sir, that's correct.
` Q And did you -- did you interpret the --
`the words of the claims as counsel instructed or
`informed you?
` A Yes, I did or at least that was -- I tried
`as hard as I could to do that. So yes, that was
`my intent and that is what I tried to do.
` Q Great. And so my understanding is that
`your -- your opinions are that each of the claims
`of the '434 patent are rendered obvious by one or
`more of the primary references that you have
`identified; is that correct?
` A Yeah. This summary in paragraph 26 that
`is -- that is exactly the summary, that all the
`claims are rendered obvious by one or more of the
`primary references as you referred to them.
` Q And your understanding of obviousness
`obviously came from counsel; is that correct?
` A Yes, of course.
` Q And that is your understanding of the
`standard for obviousness is -- is detailed in
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`paragraphs 31 through 44 of your declaration; is
`that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And as it says in the top line on 31, that
`you're informed by counsel and understand that all
`prior art references are to be looked at from the
`viewpoint of a person of ordinary skill in the art
`at the time of the invention. And that this
`viewpoint prevents one from using his or her own
`insight or hindsight in deciding whether a claim
`is obviousness -- or is obvious; correct?
` A I see that, yes.
` Q What methodology did you use to put
`yourself in a position of a person of ordinary
`skill in the art as of the critical date?
` A Well, obviously I was involved in the
`industry at that time, and prior to that time. So
`I sort of knew where the industry was going, I
`knew what practitioners in the industry were
`doing.
` And just doing my best to remember sort of
`what the state of technology was at that time as
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`Smart
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