UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
`
`FINTIV,
`
`INC.,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`eaetetetetetetetet
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`Case No.:
`
`IPR2022-00976
`
`Patent No. 9,892,386
`CM#52959. 95R386
`
`JOB NO. 23-123915
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`MICHAEL SHAMOS, PH.D.
`
`HELD VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`MAY 9, 2023
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`LYNETTE MARIE NELSON, CSR NO. 11585, RPR
`CRR, CRG, CCRR, REALTIME SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 1 of 176
`APPLEINC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 1 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
`
`FINTIV,
`
`INC.,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`eaetetetetetetetet
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`Case No.:
`
`IPR2022-00976
`
`Patent No. 9,892,386
`CM#52959. 95R386
`
`JOB NO. 23-123915
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`MICHAEL SHAMOS, PH.D.
`
`HELD VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`MAY 9, 2023
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`LYNETTE MARIE NELSON, CSR NO. 11585, RPR
`CRR, CRG, CCRR, REALTIME SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 1 of 176
`APPLEINC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 1 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Case No.: IPR2022-00976
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) Patent No. 9,892,386
`·7· ·FINTIV, INC.,· · · · · · · · · · · · ) CM#52959.95R386
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · · · · )
`· · ·_____________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`14· · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL SHAMOS, PH.D.
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`15· · · · · · · · HELD VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · MAY 9, 2023
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`17
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`18
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`19
`· · ·REPORTED BY:
`20· ·LYNETTE MARIE NELSON, CSR NO. 11585, RPR
`· · ·CRR, CRG, CCRR, REALTIME SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR
`21· ·JOB NO. 23-123915
`
`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 2 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Case No.: IPR2022-00976
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) Patent No. 9,892,386
`·7· ·FINTIV, INC.,· · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · · · · )
`· · ·_____________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL SHAMOS, PH.D.,
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`15· ·taken by the Petitioner, commencing at the hour of
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`16· ·9:56 a.m. Eastern Standard Time on Tuesday, May 9, 2023,
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`17· ·held via Zoom videoconference, before Lynette Marie
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`18· ·Nelson, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the
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`19· ·State of California.
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`25
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 3 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
`
`·2
`· · · · · For the Petitioner:
`·3· · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`· · · · · · · BY:· JONATHAN BOWSER, ESQ.
`·4· · · · · · BY:· BROOKE COHEN, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · 2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700
`·5· · · · · · Dallas, Texas· 75219
`· · · · · · · (214)651-5000
`·6· · · · · · jonathan.bowser@haynesboone.com
`
`·7· · · · For the Respondent:
`· · · · · · · VOLPE KOENIG
`·8· · · · · · BY:· DANIEL H. GOLUB, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · BY:· BRANDON R. THEISS, ESQ.
`·9· · · · · · 30 S. 17th Street, Suite 1800
`· · · · · · · Philadelphia, Pennsylvania· 19103
`10· · · · · · (215)568-6400
`· · · · · · · dgolub@vklaw.com
`11
`· · · · · · · KASOWITZ BENSON TORRES, LLP
`12· · · · · · BY:· CHEN "ALEXANDRA" JIA, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · 333 Twin Dolphin Drive, Suite 200
`13· · · · · · Redwood Shores, California· 94065
`· · · · · · · (650)453-5170
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 4 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2
`· · ·WITNESS:· MICHAEL SHAMOS, PH.D.· · · · · · · ·PAGE
`·3
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`·4· ·EXAMINATION
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`·5· ·BY MR. BOWSER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · (NO EXHIBITS PROFFERED FOR INCLUSION.)
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`·8
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`·9· ·Witness signature page· · · · · · · · · · · · ·149
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`10· ·Certificate page· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·151
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 5 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· · REMOTE DEPOSITION; TUESDAY, MAY 9, 2023 9:56 A.M.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·EASTERN STANDARD TIME
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · -o0o-
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Witness sworn.)
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`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I do.
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL SHAMOS, Ph.D.,
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`·8· · · having been duly sworn by the Certified Shorthand
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`·9· · · ·Reporter, was examined and testified as follows:
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`11· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
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`12· · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Dr. Shamos.· My name is
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`13· ·Jonathan Bowser, and I'm counsel for the petitioner. I
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`14· ·will be asking you questions today about your
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`15· ·declaration, which is Exhibit 2009 in IPR2022-00976.
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`16· · · · · · Can you please state your full name for the
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`17· ·record, please.
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`18· · · ·A.· ·Michael Ian, I-A-N, Shamos, S-H-A-M-O-S.
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`19· · · ·Q.· ·Is there any reason why you would not be able
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`20· ·to answer my questions today fully, accurately, and
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`21· ·honestly?
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`22· · · ·A.· ·No.· I have a little cough, so you may have
`
`23· ·trouble hearing me.· But it won't affect my ability to
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`24· ·formulate answers.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·Do you understand that during today's
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 6 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· ·deposition, you are under oath and providing sworn
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`·2· ·testimony just as if you were in court?
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`·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.
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`·5· · · · · · If you don't understand any of my questions,
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`·6· ·please let me know.
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`·7· · · · · · If you answer my question, I will assume that
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`·8· ·you understood my question; is that okay?
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`·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· If I answer your question, I'll assume I
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`10· ·understood it also.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Great.
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`12· · · · · · Your counsel may object to questions throughout
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`13· ·this deposition.· Unless your counsel instructs you not
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`14· ·to answer a specific question, you are required to
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`15· ·answer my questions; is that understood?
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`16· · · ·A.· ·I've heard that, yes.
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`17· · · ·Q.· ·The court reporter will prepare a transcript of
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`18· ·this deposition today.· To ensure that we obtain a clear
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`19· ·record of this deposition, please answer each question
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`20· ·with a full verbal response such as "yes" or "no."
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`21· ·Please do not answer with verbal gestures like "uh-huh"
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`22· ·or head movements; is that okay?
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`23· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`24· · · ·Q.· ·Also to ensure a clear record, I ask that you
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`25· ·let me finish my questions before you provide an answer
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 7 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· ·and I will do the same.· The court reporter may have
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`·2· ·difficulty accurately recording who is speaking when
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`·3· ·there is cross talk; is that okay?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· During the portion of this
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`·6· ·deposition where I'm asking you questions, you are not
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`·7· ·permitted to speak with your counsel about the substance
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`·8· ·of your testimony including your declaration and
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`·9· ·deposition; is that understood?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`11· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· We will plan to take a break after
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`12· ·each hour-long period of questioning.· If you need a
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`13· ·break before then, please let me know, but before we
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`14· ·take a break, I ask that you please answer any question
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`15· ·just so that we can ensure an accurate record.
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`16· · · · · · Is that okay?
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`17· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I will need to break for lunch about noon.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`19· · · ·A.· ·And then if you plan to impact dinner, I'm
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`20· ·going to have to let my wife know.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·I will not.· I can promise you that.
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`22· · · · · · Okay.· As I mentioned, I will be asking you
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`23· ·questions about your declaration, which is Exhibit 2009.
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`24· ·If I refer to "your declaration," will you understand
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`25· ·that I'm referring to Exhibit 2009 in this proceeding?
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 8 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·And just for the record, we agreed that you
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`·3· ·would use the electronic versions of the -- your
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`·4· ·exhibits and the information that you've identified in
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`·5· ·paragraph 19 of your declaration.· Your local copies; is
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`·6· ·that right?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes, so I obtained them by downloading them
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`·8· ·from the PTAB website.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any markings on those documents?
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`10· · · ·A.· ·No.· The documents that would be in the PTAB
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`11· ·website would not have markings.
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`12· · · ·Q.· ·What equipment are you using today for this
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`13· ·deposition?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·I'm using a Dell tower.· It's not so easy for
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`15· ·me to tell you the model number of it.· And I have two
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`16· ·large screens in front of me.· It's my home large
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`17· ·desktop computer.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·Are you using any other tablet or other type of
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`19· ·computing device?
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`20· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·Are you alone in the room today?
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`22· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· And I will be the entire time.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·Do you have a phone with you?
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`24· · · ·A.· ·Curious you should ask.· As it happens, I left
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`25· ·my cell phone at my university office yesterday.· So I
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 9 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· ·don't have a cell phone.· I do have a landline phone
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`·2· ·next to me.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· ·Well, so absent an emergency, do you agree not
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`·4· ·to use your landline phone during the questioning today
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`·5· ·for any reason?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I'm going to turn the volume down on it
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`·7· ·so it won't even ring.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`·9· · · ·A.· ·Okay.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any other notes in front of you
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`11· ·today about your testimony?
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`12· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·You have notes?
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`14· · · ·A.· ·I have one note.
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`15· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please refrain from using that note?
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`16· · · ·A.· ·Probably not because the note contains a number
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`17· ·and I haven't memorized the number.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·What is that number?
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`19· · · ·A.· ·The number is 026 -- 0265252.· And it was on --
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`20· ·referenced on page 6 of my declaration, and the last two
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`21· ·digits should be 7-2 instead of 5-2.· That's the only
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`22· ·note I have.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·So we can get to that in a little bit.· Okay.
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`24· · · · · · Do you have any chat windows open where you are
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`25· ·communicating with counsel or other representatives of
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 10 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· ·patent owner?
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`·2· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· ·Have you been deposed before?
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`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·How many times?· Approximately?
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`·6· · · ·A.· ·I don't know exactly because I only -- if I get
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`·7· ·deposed more than once in a case, I only count it as
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`·8· ·once.· So by that enumeration, this would be the
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`·9· ·149th case.
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`10· · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever been deposed in connection with
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`11· ·an Inter Partes review or a post grant review
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`12· ·proceeding?
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`13· · · ·A.· ·Yes, I think about 50 times.
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`14· · · ·Q.· ·To your knowledge, has any court or other
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`15· ·tribunal ever excluded or stricken your testimony for
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`16· ·any reason?
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`17· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall the circumstances under which
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`19· ·your testimony was stricken?
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`20· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please elaborate on what those reasons
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`22· ·were, if you remember?
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`23· · · ·A.· ·I remember.· So if you look at Case No. 31 on
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`24· ·my CV.
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`25· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 11 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
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`·1· · · ·A.· ·It was a copyright case.· I mean, I can go into
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`·2· ·all of the details, but I agree with the judge's
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`·3· ·decision to exclude my testimony so much to the extent
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`·4· ·that I have a hyperlink to his opinion on my CV.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· ·And could you provide a brief summary as to why
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`·6· ·it was excluded?
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`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· So it was a case against FedEx Ground.
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`·8· ·It was principally a copyright case.· FedEx Ground, by
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`·9· ·coincidence, happens to be located in Pittsburgh,
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`10· ·Pennsylvania.· And I was working for counsel who were
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`11· ·not IP counsel.· They were general attorneys who were
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`12· ·handling the business affairs of this particular client,
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`13· ·and they wanted, for some reason, to keep the copyright
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`14· ·matter.· Which they had never done before.· So they
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`15· ·negotiated a source code inspection agreement with the
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`16· ·other side with FedEx Ground.· And I drove out to
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`17· ·FedEx Ground to do the examination.
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`18· · · · · · I was told that I couldn't bring anything into
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`19· ·the exam room, I couldn't take anything out of the exam
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`20· ·room.· I went in and I saw three large boxes of
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`21· ·sprocket-fed paper on a table.· They said there's the
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`22· ·source code.· It was not a computer, it wasn't machine
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`23· ·readable.· I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison, in
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`24· ·fact, I really couldn't do anything.· There was no way
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`25· ·of searching it.
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 12 of 176
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`·1· · · · · · When I left, I went back to counsel and said,
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`·2· ·guys, you have to negotiate a new source code exam. I
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`·3· ·couldn't do anything.
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`·4· · · · · · And they said, don't worry, Mike, you know, we
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`·5· ·will take care of it.
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`·6· · · · · · All right.· So the day comes for opening expert
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`·7· ·reports.· I had essentially nothing to say so I wrote --
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`·8· ·I wrote a report that had five substantive pages in
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`·9· ·which I said if the following events occurred, there was
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`10· ·infringement.· If the following other things occurred,
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`11· ·there was infringement.· I couldn't say anything so it
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`12· ·was quite properly excluded.
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`13· · · ·Q.· ·Thank you.
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`14· · · · · · You were retained by Fintiv, Incorporated, to
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`15· ·provide testimony in this case; correct?
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`16· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`17· · · ·Q.· ·During today's deposition, if I refer to
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`18· ·"Fintiv" or "patent owner," do you understand that means
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`19· ·I'm referring to Fintiv, Incorporated?
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`20· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`21· · · ·Q.· ·So --
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`22· · · ·A.· ·Let me correct something.
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`23· · · · · · So you said I was retained by Fintiv.· I was
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`24· ·retained on behalf of Fintiv by their counsel.· So to my
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`25· ·recollection, I haven't actually communicated with
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 13 of 176
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`·1· ·anybody at Fintiv.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· ·Thank you for that clarification.
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`·3· · · · · · Are you aware that the -- let me back up here.
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`·4· · · · · · This IPR proceeding is about U.S. Patent
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`·5· ·No. 989-2396; correct?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· ·No.· 386.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry, 386.
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`·8· · · · · · If I refer to U.S. Patent No. 9892386 as "the
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`·9· ·'386 patent," will you understand I'm referring to
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`10· ·Exhibit 1001 in this proceeding?
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`11· · · ·A.· ·Yes, it's normally done.
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`12· · · ·Q.· ·Are you aware that the '386 patent is involved
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`13· ·in a District Court litigation between Fintiv and
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`14· ·PayPal?
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`15· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`16· · · ·Q.· ·Are you serving as an expert witness for Fintiv
`
`17· ·in the PayPal District Court case?
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`18· · · ·A.· ·No.
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`19· · · ·Q.· ·Did you have any relationship with Fintiv prior
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`20· ·to this IPR proceeding?
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`21· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Well, when you say "with Fintiv," with
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`22· ·the counsel for Fintiv, yes.
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`23· · · ·Q.· ·And you indicated earlier that you were
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`24· ·retained by counsel for Fintiv; correct?
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`25· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 14 of 176
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`·1· · · ·Q.· ·What was your relationship with counsel for
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`·2· ·Fintiv prior to this IPR proceeding?
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`·3· · · ·A.· ·I participated in prior cases for Fintiv.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· ·Were those IPR proceedings?
`
`·5· · · ·A.· ·Some were IPR; one was District Court.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· ·And you are not currently working for Fintiv,
`
`·7· ·though, in the District Court case involving PayPal; is
`
`·8· ·that right?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·That's right.· And I never did.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·Who did you meet with to prepare for your
`
`11· ·deposition today?
`
`12· · · ·A.· ·Mr. Golub and Mr. Theiss and Alexandra Chen.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall approximately how many hours you
`
`14· ·spent preparing for your deposition?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·With counsel, I spent two to three hours, and I
`
`16· ·probably spent two to three hours alone.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·So I want to turn next to Exhibit 2009.· Do you
`
`18· ·have that handy?
`
`19· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· It's on my screen.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· ·Is this your declaration?
`
`21· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please turn to page 45.
`
`23· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I'm there.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· ·Is that -- is that your signature?
`
`25· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I checked that before I confirmed that
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 15 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· ·this was my declaration.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· ·And did you sign this declaration on
`
`·3· ·February 13, 2023?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall if you prepared the first draft
`
`·6· ·of your declaration?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· ·I recall very well.· I did, yes.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· ·What is your current occupation?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·I'm employed as a faculty member in the School
`
`10· ·of Computer Science at Carnegie Mellon University. I
`
`11· ·do -- that's my W-2 job.· My 1099 job is doing expert
`
`12· ·witness work.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please refer to paragraph 14 of your
`
`14· ·declaration.· It is on page 4.
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·Yeah, paragraph numbers are helpful; page
`
`16· ·numbers aren't.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`18· · · ·A.· ·The reason is each page has multiple paragraph
`
`19· ·numbers so they're very easy to spot, but each page only
`
`20· ·has one page number.
`
`21· · · · · · I'm at paragraph 14 now.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· ·You are an attorney; correct?
`
`23· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Are you a practicing attorney?
`
`25· · · ·A.· ·Only sort of.· So I don't maintain a law office
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 16 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· ·and I don't take on matters.· I do give formal legal
`
`·2· ·advice to colleagues of mine at the university.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· ·Are you currently licensed to practice?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·And you are registered to practice before the
`
`·6· ·U.S. PTO; is that correct?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· ·Do you practice as a patent attorney?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·Not now.· As I say, I don't maintain a law
`
`10· ·office and patent matters are heavily docketed.· There
`
`11· ·are many due dates and I wouldn't have a reliable way of
`
`12· ·keeping track so I don't do it.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· ·When was the last time that you prosecuted a
`
`14· ·patent application?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·Probably 1997.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· ·In paragraph 14, you indicate that you were
`
`17· ·providing testimony only as a technical expert; is that
`
`18· ·correct?
`
`19· · · ·A.· ·That's right.· And I think it's clear from the
`
`20· ·body of the declaration that that's all I did.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· ·If we turn to paragraph 19, please.
`
`22· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· ·This is an identification of the materials that
`
`24· ·you considered; is that right?
`
`25· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 17 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· ·Did you consider any document not included in
`
`·2· ·the list in paragraph 19 when preparing your
`
`·3· ·declaration?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·The first bullet point under paragraph 19, do
`
`·6· ·you see that?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· ·It says, all materials filed in this IPR to
`
`·9· ·date; is that right?
`
`10· · · ·A.· ·Yes, what that really means is up to the date
`
`11· ·prior to the filing of this.· So I didn't consider
`
`12· ·documents that were filed the same day as mine.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· ·So does that mean that you considered all of
`
`14· ·the exhibits cited in the petition?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· To the extent that they were filed in the
`
`16· ·IPR.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·Does that mean that you also considered all of
`
`18· ·the exhibits that were cited in Dr. Hughes' declaration,
`
`19· ·which is Exhibit 1003?
`
`20· · · ·A.· ·Provided that they were filed in the IPR, yes.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· ·Can you turn back to paragraph 2, please.
`
`22· · · ·A.· ·I'm there.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· ·In paragraph 2, you indicate that you
`
`24· ·previously submitted a declaration in this proceeding
`
`25· ·which has been marked as Exhibit 2001; is that right?
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 18 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· ·If I refer to "your prior declaration," will
`
`·3· ·you understand that I'm referring to Exhibit 2001?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have a defined term here in the
`
`·5· ·declaration called "initial declaration."· But if you
`
`·6· ·want to call it "prior," you can call it "prior."
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· ·Just to keep the record clean, I will call it
`
`·8· ·"initial declaration" then.
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·When you say that you incorporate your initial
`
`11· ·declaration by reference, does that mean that your
`
`12· ·current declaration, which is Exhibit 2009, adopts all
`
`13· ·of the positions that you took in your initial
`
`14· ·declaration?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·I think that's the implication except to the
`
`16· ·extent that there may be something inconsistent in the
`
`17· ·later declaration.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please go to the table of contents? I
`
`19· ·can't give you a paragraph number.· It is PDF page 2
`
`20· ·Romanette i.
`
`21· · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'm there.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· ·And this is the table of contents of your
`
`23· ·declaration; is that right?
`
`24· · · ·A.· ·It purports to be.· I have never actually been
`
`25· ·questioned on a table of contents before, but let's see
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 19 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· ·where this goes.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· ·Well, what I want to ask you is in
`
`·3· ·Roman numeral number IX, do you see it says
`
`·4· ·"Claim Construction"?
`
`·5· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· ·And then you identify five terms in your
`
`·7· ·declaration under the heading "Claim Construction"; is
`
`·8· ·that right?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·And those claim terms are first, "committing a
`
`11· ·pending transaction"; second, "at least one of"; third,
`
`12· ·"auditing financial transactions"; fourth, "error
`
`13· ·handling"; and fifth, "logging platform objects"; is
`
`14· ·that correct?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· ·We will get to those claim constructions
`
`17· ·individually.
`
`18· · · · · · Can you please turn to paragraph 38.
`
`19· · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'm there.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· ·All right.· One moment.
`
`21· · · · · · In paragraph 38, you indicate that prior to the
`
`22· ·institution decision, you understood that neither party
`
`23· ·believed that any claim terms required construction; is
`
`24· ·that right?
`
`25· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 20 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· ·And the second sentence, I'll read that and let
`
`·2· ·me know if I've read this correctly, it says, In light
`
`·3· ·of the reply and the institution decision, I understand
`
`·4· ·that patent owner now believes that the plain ordinary
`
`·5· ·meaning to a POSITA of several terms need to be stated
`
`·6· ·expressly.
`
`·7· · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· ·Do you see the beginning of the second
`
`10· ·sentence, it says, In light of the reply and the
`
`11· ·institution decision?
`
`12· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· ·What do you mean by "in light of the reply"?
`
`14· · · ·A.· ·That means after considering the reply.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· ·Which reply are you referring to?
`
`16· · · ·A.· ·Okay.· So let's look to see if there's a
`
`17· ·definition.
`
`18· · · · · · So if you go to paragraph 19, that's the list
`
`19· ·of materials considered.· Right near the bottom of
`
`20· ·paragraph 19, there's a definition of reply.· It's
`
`21· ·petitioner's authorized reply to patent owner's
`
`22· ·preliminary response, Paper No. 8.· That's the reply.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· ·So in paragraph 38, you've indicated that there
`
`24· ·was a reconsideration on claim construction in light of
`
`25· ·the reply to the patent owner preliminary response and
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 21 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· ·the institution decision; is that right?
`
`·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · · · · MR. GOLUB:· Objection.
`
`·4· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·I'm going to turn to the sections below
`
`·6· ·paragraph 38.
`
`·7· · · · · · Do you see where there's a heading that says
`
`·8· ·"Committing a Pending Transaction"?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·On page 12?
`
`11· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· ·And let's turn next to pages 16 and 17.
`
`13· · · · · · Do you see there is a table for the claim
`
`14· ·phrase at least one of?
`
`15· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· ·And then let's turn to page 17.
`
`17· · · · · · Do you see at the bottom where it's under
`
`18· ·Section C, there's a table for construction of auditing
`
`19· ·financial transactions?
`
`20· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· ·Let's turn to page 19.· Normally I will give
`
`22· ·you paragraph numbers, but these don't have paragraphs
`
`23· ·so that's what I'm referring to.
`
`24· · · ·A.· ·I understand.· You could if you wanted, say
`
`25· ·prior to paragraph 49.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 22 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· ·Prior to paragraph 49, do you see there is a
`
`·2· ·table for a construction of the claim phrase "error
`
`·3· ·handling"?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·Prior to paragraph 53, do you see a
`
`·6· ·construction for the claim phrase "logging platform
`
`·7· ·objects"?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· ·For each of these five claim terms, are you
`
`10· ·providing an express construction for those terms?
`
`11· · · · · · MR. GOLUB:· Objection.
`
`12· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So what I'm explaining is what I
`
`13· ·believe a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`14· ·consider to be the plain and ordinary meaning of those
`
`15· ·terms.
`
`16· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·So you are explaining your understanding of
`
`18· ·what a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`19· ·understand to be the plain ordinary meaning for those
`
`20· ·terms; is that right?
`
`21· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· ·Did you develop these understandings yourself?
`
`23· · · · · · MR. GOLUB:· Objection.
`
`24· · · · · · I caution the witness that the extent it calls
`
`25· ·for privileged information not to answer.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 23 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So I was a -- I don't actually
`
`·2· ·recall the ordering of events.· But my common practice
`
`·3· ·is for technical terms of this type, I develop the
`
`·4· ·constructions.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· ·And do you recall if that's what you did in
`
`·7· ·this particular case?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· ·I think that's what I did in each case except
`
`·9· ·for "at least one of."
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·And that at least one other case is not this
`
`11· ·case; is that right?
`
`12· · · ·A.· ·No, the phrase "at least one of" that appears
`
`13· ·on page 16.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· ·Oh, okay.· I see.
`
`15· · · · · · Are you aware that the District Court judge in
`
`16· ·the Fintiv versus PayPal litigation issued a claim
`
`17· ·construction order?
`
`18· · · ·A.· ·I've been told that.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· ·And that is Exhibit 2015.· Is that your
`
`20· ·recollection?
`
`21· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· I have it.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· ·And in paragraph 19, it looks to be on page 6.
`
`23· · · ·A.· ·Paragraph 19 of Exhibit 2015?
`
`24· · · ·Q.· ·I apologize.· Paragraph 19 of Exhibit 2009,
`
`25· ·your declaration.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 24 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A.· ·Okay.· Let me see.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· ·Fourth bullet point from the bottom.
`
`·3· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· ·Do you see that you had considered
`
`·5· ·Exhibits 2010 to 2017?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· ·So does that list there include Exhibit 2015?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· ·Are you aware of whether any of the five claim
`
`10· ·terms that you are construing in your declaration,
`
`11· ·whether they were addressed in the District Court's
`
`12· ·claim construction order?
`
`13· · · ·A.· ·I don't think they were.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please refer to the construction of
`
`15· ·"committing a pending transaction" below paragraph 38?
`
`16· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·And you have construed "committing a pending
`
`18· ·transaction" in this table; is that right?
`
`19· · · ·A.· ·I have explained the plain ordinary meaning of
`
`20· ·"committing a pending transaction."
`
`21· · · ·Q.· ·You have the word "committing" in quotes and
`
`22· ·then you have in brackets, "a pending transaction"; is
`
`23· ·that right?
`
`24· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · ·Q.· ·Are you explaining your understanding of the
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 25 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· ·meaning of the term "committing" by itself or are you
`
`·2· ·explaining the meaning of the term "committing a pending
`
`·3· ·transaction"?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· ·I'm explaining the meaning of the word
`
`·5· ·"committing" itself in the context of "committing a
`
`·6· ·pending transaction."· If you look at the construction
`
`·7· ·that I'm -- or the plain ordinary meaning that I'm
`
`·8· ·offering, the word "transaction" doesn't occur in there.
`
`·9· ·So it would be reading out transaction if the entire
`
`10· ·phrase being construed were committing a pending
`
`11· ·transaction.· And, in fact, the word "pending" also does
`
`12· ·not appear in the plain ordinary meaning.· So I'm
`
`13· ·construing the single word "committing."· But as used
`
`14· ·with the phrase "a pending transaction."· It's not
`
`15· ·committing murder.· It's committing a pending
`
`16· ·transaction.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·So the bracketed terms "a pending transaction"
`
`18· ·is to provide context for the term "committing"; is that
`
`19· ·right?
`
`20· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please refer to Exhibit 1010 which is
`
`22· ·the claims appendix.
`
`23· · · ·A.· ·I'm there.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· ·Can you please turn to the top of page 3 for
`
`25· ·Limitation 1.10.5.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 26 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I'm there.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· ·What does that limitation say?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· ·Committing a pending transaction through the
`
`·4· ·business process services.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· ·Is that the limitation that you are referring
`
`·6· ·to at the bottom of page 12 underneath paragraph 38 in
`
`·7· ·your declaration?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· ·That's the first occurrence of committing a
`
`·9· ·pending transaction.· Later on, there are references in
`
`10· ·the claim to committing the pending transaction, which
`
`11· ·is the same transaction that was committed in 1.10.5.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· ·So can we look at Limitation 1.10.6 in
`
`13· ·Exhibit 1010?
`
`14· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· ·Do you see that it says the word "commitment"?
`
`16· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· ·Does your explanation of the term "committing"
`
`18· ·also apply to the term "commitment" in
`
`19· ·Limitation 1.10.6?
`
`20· · · ·A.· ·Well, they're related.· So in 1.10.6, it reads,
`
`21· ·wherein the integration tier communicates a transaction
`
`22· ·commitment request to the business process services.
`
`23· · · · · · I think a POSITA would understand "transaction
`
`24· ·commitment request" is a request to commit a pending
`
`25· ·transaction.
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 27 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· ·And can you please look at Limitation 1.10.9.
`
`·2· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· ·And do you see that it says, upon receiving a
`
`·4· ·confirmation of commitment?
`
`·5· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· ·And then later in this limitation, it says,
`
`·7· ·"committing the pending transaction."
`
`·8· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · ·Q.· ·So is your explanation of the term "committing"
`
`11· ·at the bottom of page 12, does that also apply to the
`
`12· ·use of the terms "commitment" and "committing" in
`
`13· ·Limitation 1.10.9?
`
`14· · · · · · MR. GOLUB:· Objection.
`
`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, they're related.
`
`16· ·"Commitment" is a noun; "committing" is a verb.· So they
`
`17· ·don't actually have literally the same meaning.
`
`18· · · · · · So what's going on here is we're -- what we're
`
`19· ·seeing is the staged commitment process in which there
`
`20· ·are multiple commitments of the transaction that occur
`
`21· ·during its processing.
`
`22· · · · · · And so when business process services has
`
`23· ·confirmed that it's committed the transaction, then the
`
`24· ·pending transaction is then thereupon committed to the
`
`25· ·database services.· So the meaning of "committing" is
`
`APPL-1018 / IPR2022-00976 / Page 28 of 176
`APPLE INC. v. FINTIV, INC.
`
`
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`·1· ·the same there.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. BOWSER:
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· ·And just to be clear, in the Limitation 1.11.1,
`
`·4· ·it also uses the phrase "committing the pending"
`
`·5· ·transaction.
`
`·6· · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· ·Yes.· There it has the same me
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