Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`
`Date: April 11, 2023
`Case: Ecobee Technologies ULC -v- Ecofactor, Inc. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
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`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`ECOBEE Exhibit 1022
`ECOBEE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00969
`
`
`
`Date: April 11, 2023
`Case: Ecobee Technologies ULC -v- Ecofactor, Inc. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`ECOBEE Exhibit 1022
`ECOBEE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00969
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`__________________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________________________
`ECOBEE TECHNOLOGIES ULC,
`Petitioner
`v.
`ECOFACTOR, INC.,
`Patent Owner
`__________________________
`IPR2022-00969
`and
`IPR2022-00983
`U.S. Patent No. 8,596,550 B2
`___________________________
`Deposition of JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D.
`Conducted Virtually
`Tuesday, April,11, 2023
`10:28 a.m. EST
`
`Job No.: 486391
`Pages: 1 - 165
`Reported by: Judith E. Bellinger, RPR, CRR
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`2
`
` Deposition of JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D.,
`conducted virtually.
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Judith E.
`Bellinger, Registered Professional Reporter,
`Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in
`and for the State of Maryland.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` JUSTIN J. OLIVER, ESQUIRE
` VENABLE LLP
` 600 Massachusetts Avenue NW
` Washington, DC 20001
` 202.344.4000
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` JONATHAN LINK, ESQUIRE
` RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
` 12424 Wilshire Boulevard
` 12th Floor
` Los Angeles, CA 90025
` 310.826.7474
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Charlotte Forrest, Planet Depos Technician
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`4
`
` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D. PAGE
` By Mr. Oliver 5
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached to the transcript)
`Palmer Exhibits: PAGE
`Exhibit 1001 United States Patent Number 8
` 8,596,550
`Exhibit 1004 United States Patent Application 9
` Publication Number US 2004/0117330
` A1
`Exhibit 1005 United States Patent Application 10
` Publication Number US 2005/0040250
` A1
`Exhibit 1006 United States Patent Number 140
` 8,374,725
`Exhibit 1007 UK Paten Application GB 2 432 016 A 11
`Exhibit 2006 Declaration of John A. Palmer, 12
` Ph.D., IPR2022-00969, Patent Number
` 8,596,550
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`5
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D.,
` being first duly sworn, was examined
`and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`BY MR. OLIVER:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Palmer, how are you?
` A I'm well, good morning.
` Q Can you state your full name for the
`record, please.
` A John Arthur Palmer.
` Q And is there any reason you cannot give
`truthful testimony today?
` A No.
` Q You're not taking any medications that
`would affect your ability to give truthful
`testimony?
` A No.
` Q You've been deposed before, correct?
` A I have.
` Q About how many times?
` A A little over 90.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`6
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` Q So you understand how this works. I'll
`try and endeavor to take breaks about every hour.
`Let me know if you need a break before I call for
`one. The only thing that I ask is that if there's
`a question pending, that you answer the question
`before we take the break.
` Is that fair?
` A Of course.
` Q And you understand that your attorney
`may object, but absent privilege, you still need
`to answer the questions that are asked, correct?
` A Just to be clear, he's not my attorney,
`in terms of representing me, but he is my client
`and is defending the deposition.
` Q Understood.
` How did you prepare for this
`deposition?
` A I reviewed my declarations and I had a
`meeting with counsel.
` Q And did you review any documents that
`aren't discussed or identified in your
`declaration?
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`7
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` A I did not.
` Q And about how many times did you meet
`with the attorney?
` A In terms of preparing for this
`deposition, it was just once yesterday.
` Q Okay. What I'd like to do is start
`with a little bit of housekeeping and making the
`exhibits I'm likely to discuss available to you.
`So I think our tech can probably help with that.
`They've been uploaded, and you should be able to
`get access to that?
` MR. OLIVER: Charlotte, is that
`correct?
` PLANET DEPOS TECHNICIAN: Yes, I can,
`if you want to direct me to specific exhibits, I
`can put them in the chat through Zoom, which he
`can then download.
` MR. OLIVER: Okay. Can you put, in the
`chat, Exhibit 1001.
` PLANET DEPOS TECHNICIAN: Yes, one
`moment, please.
` Just to clarify, would you like me to
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`8
`
`send it directly to Mr. Palmer or would you like
`me to send it generally?
` MR. OLIVER: You can send it directly
`to him.
` PLANET DEPOS TECHNICIAN: Okay.
` MR. OLIVER: Jonathan, do you need a
`copy of that.
` MR. LINK: No, I'm good. Thank you. I
`have a couple copies floating around.
` MR. OLIVER: I would imagine.
` (Palmer Exhibit 1001 marked for
`identification and attached to the transcript.)
` Q And, Dr. Palmer, let me know when you
`have that.
` A Almost there.
` MR. OLIVER: And, Charlotte, you might
`as well also send Exhibits 1004, 1005, 1006, 1007,
`and the two different versions of 2006.
` PLANET DEPOS TECHNICIAN: Okay. One
`moment, please.
` Q While that's taking place, Dr. Palmer,
`let me know when you have Exhibit 1001.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`9
`
` A I do have Exhibit 1001 up.
` Q And this is U.S. Patent Number
`8,596,550, correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And you recognize this document?
` A I do.
` Q For purposes of our discussion today,
`I'll call that the '550 patent, if that's all
`right with you?
` A Fair enough.
` Q And let me know when you have the other
`documents downloaded.
` A I have all seven downloaded now.
` Q Okay. I'm just going to go through
`those, just to make sure we're on the same page.
` If you could, open Exhibit 1004,
`please.
` (Palmer Exhibit 1004 marked for
`identification and attached to the transcript.)
` A Okay.
` Q And that is the Ehlers reference, U.S.
`Patent Application Publication Number
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`10
`
`2004/0117330, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q For ease of discussion today, I'll just
`refer to that document as Ehlers, if that's all
`right with you?
` A Works for me.
` Q All right. And then, if you could open
`Exhibit 1005.
` (Palmer Exhibit 1005 marked for
`identification and attached to the transcript.)
` A Okay.
` Q And this is the Wruck reference, U.S.
`Patent Publication Number 2005/0040250, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And I'll refer to this today as Wruck.
` MR. OLIVER: And for the court
`reporter, that's W-R-U-C-K.
` A Fair enough.
` Q And, next, why don't you go to 1006?
` A Okay.
` Q And this is the Ols reference, O-L-S,
`and it's patent number 8,374,725, correct?
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`11
`
` A Yes.
` Q And I'll refer to this today as just
`the Ols reference or Ols.
` A Okay.
` Q And next, if you could go to
`Exhibit 1007, please.
` (Palmer Exhibit 1007 marked for
`identification and attached to the transcript.)
` A Okay.
` Q And that is UK patent application
`number 2 432 016, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And that is what we refer to as the
`Boait reference, B-O-A-I-T, and I'll refer to it
`by that name today, if that's all right with you?
` A That's fine.
` Q I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that
`right, so if you have a different pronunciation,
`just let me know.
` A I haven't met him, so I don't know
`exactly how his name is pronounced either.
` Q Okay. And finally, you should have two
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`12
`
`Exhibit 2006s.
` (Palmer Exhibit 2006 marked for
`identification and attached to the transcript.)
` A Yes.
` Q And if you want to open one of those
`and let me know which IPR number it is.
` A Okay. Looking at Exhibit 2006, the 983
`IPR.
` Q Okay. So this is your declaration in
`IPR number 2022-00983, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And this is the declaration that was
`submitted by you in this proceeding; is that
`correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And on page 59 of that document, that
`is your signature?
` A Yes.
` Q Great.
` If you could open the other 2006
`exhibit.
` A Okay.
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`13
`
` Q And this is your declaration in IPR
`2022-00969, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And if you could turn to the last page
`of that document, just confirm, that's your
`signature?
` A Yes.
` Q For ease of our discussion today, let's
`use the 969 declaration, or the declaration from
`the 969 case. I'll refer to that one when I refer
`to your declaration, just so we are making sure we
`look at the same document. Just for our own sort
`of ease of exchange, many of the paragraphs I'll
`refer to are the same in both declarations,
`number-wise, but for clarity of the record, I
`might refer to what the corresponding paragraph is
`in the 983, just to keep the record clean, if
`that's okay?
` A Fair enough.
` Q All right. That is the housekeeping.
` Now, if you could go to your
`declaration from the 969, and turn to paragraph
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`14
`
`34, please.
` A Okay.
` Q And you'll see, in paragraph 34, you
`start by discussing a statement from Dr. Auslander
`concerning whether or not Ehlers was of record
`during prosecution.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Does whether or not Ehlers was of
`record change what it would inform to a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` A Whether or not it was of record, it
`does not reflect the content of that document, no.
` Q All right. Can you turn to paragraph
`28 of your declaration.
` A Okay.
` Q In that paragraph you state that "it
`should be noted that a building energy management
`system, as the phrase is generally applied,
`describes a complex implementation of multiple
`sensors, processors, actuators, and other
`components and devices integrated into a large
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`15
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`commercial building or multiplicity of buildings
`such as on a campus," correct?
` A Yes.
` Q What makes that type of system complex?
` A Just the degree of integration and the
`quantity of devices, the diversity of devices, the
`diversity of components that are integrated into
`the overall system.
` Q And then, later in that same paragraph,
`paragraph 28, specifically on page 17, the first
`full sentence states "By contrast, the subject
`matter of the '550 patent is focused on
`residential and similar smaller-scale structures
`that do not require the sophistication of controls
`that are integral to typical building energy
`management systems."
` Do you see that?
` A I do.
` Q So what would make that type of system
`less sophisticated?
` A It has a -- typically, the complexity
`of the controls, the number of integrated sensors
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`16
`
`and actuators is much less in an application such
`as that, that is exemplified in the '550 patent.
` Q So would that technology be less
`complicated to understand or design or both?
` A I would say it would be less
`complicated to understand, for sure, and arguably,
`less complicated to design as well.
` Q I'd like to go over just some
`terminology I'll use today, because I can imagine
`it could get a little confusing, with respect to
`the operation of the, you know, heating or air
`cooling system, like a HVAC system.
` In a home that has a, let's say,
`air-conditioning system, you can or one could
`completely turn the system off, nothing is on, you
`know, it's not going to run, no matter what the
`temperature gets to, where the system is
`completely off, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Now, when an air conditioner is on and
`operating normally, the system will cycle on and
`off, correct?
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`17
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` A Yes.
` Q Do you have any preferred terminology
`for that cycling on and off, as opposed to the
`whole system being off, just so we're on the same
`page today?
` A Cycling on and off is fine.
` Q Okay. So, if I refer, today, to on or
`off, unless I otherwise clarify, I'm talking about
`the cycling on and off while the system is
`operational.
` A Okay.
` Q If I -- okay, great.
` Can you pull up Exhibit 1001, please.
` A Okay.
` Q And if you could turn to claim 1, which
`is at column 8.
` A I'm there.
` Q And the second step of claim 1 recites
`"using the stored data to predict a rate of change
`of temperatures inside the structure in response
`to at least changes in outside temperatures,"
`correct?
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`18
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` A Yes.
` Q What's your understanding there of the
`use of the term "at least"?
` A It means that the prediction is based
`on the changes in outside temperatures, but may
`also be based on other factors as well.
` Q Would those factors be solar gain, for
`example?
` A Potentially.
` Q Anything else that you can think of?
` A Oh, it could be any number of other
`things, including whether doors are opened or not,
`windows are opened or not, whether -- what the,
`you know, whether it's day or night or, you know,
`the wind blowing. I mean, it could be any number
`of things.
` It is -- the only thing that is
`expressly required under there is that the changes
`in outside temperatures be included in that
`analysis.
` Q And the language also refers to
`"predicting" a rate of change of inside
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`19
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`temperatures, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And predicting for when? Under what
`conditions?
` A Under the conditions as laid out in the
`claim.
` Q And I'm just trying to get a sense of
`would that be, for instance, predicting the rate
`of change when the air-conditioning is running
`normally, not running at all, such that the system
`is turned off, when the system is cycling off?
` What specific conditions would one need
`to predict the rate of change?
` A My read of that is that it would be
`predicting the rate of change of temperatures and
`the conditions that are present, and based on some
`extrapolation of the conditions that are present,
`and the conditions that may potentially be
`present, in terms of the changes in outside
`temperature.
` Q If you could take a look at the '550
`patent, column 5, please.
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`20
`
` A Okay.
` Q If you could look at lines 10 and 11 of
`column 5. And there, it states "when the
`air-conditioning turns on, the inside temperature
`stays constant," correct?
` A That's the first part of the sentence;
`of course, there's a parenthetical and the rest of
`the sentence present as well, but, yes, that
`phrase is present in the lines you've pointed out.
` Q So how would the system describe or the
`method described in claim 1 predict a rate of
`change when an air-conditioning system is
`operating to keep a temperature constant?
` A If the operation is going to keep the
`temperature constant, then the rate of change
`would be zero.
` Q Do prior art air-conditioning systems,
`were they known to operate to keep indoor
`temperatures constant?
` A Air-conditioning systems over the
`years, they have been known to, as that full
`sentence describes, sometimes it'll -- an air
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`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`21
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`conditioner can drive the temperature to remain
`constant. Sometimes it can cause it to just --
`temperature increase at a lower rate or, other
`times, to cause the temperature to decline.
` This is a -- it's typical of
`air-conditioning systems that existed prior, as
`well as those that exist now -- or subsequently.
` Q And how does an air-conditioning system
`keep the temperature inside a structure constant?
` A It would remain constant -- depending
`on whether -- the level of precision that you're
`monitoring, a true, flat, constant temperature
`would be unusual because, in general, the air
`conditioner is going to turn on when the upper end
`of the dead band is reached and turn off again
`when the lower end of the dead band is reached.
`And then, as the structure warms while the AC is
`not on, it'll reach the upper end of the dead band
`again and cause the operation to renew.
` Now, under some circumstances, you may
`have a specific operating point that matches with
`outdoor temperatures, such that the air
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`22
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`conditioner can barely keep up and exactly keep up
`with the outdoor temperature. So you may -- it's
`possible to have a truly flat, you know,
`maintained constant temperature, but that would be
`a fairly unique operating point that would be one
`of a range of operating points that you would
`encounter.
` Q So, you mentioned the term "dead band."
`And just so we're on the same page, if someone
`were to set an air-conditioning system to
`72 degrees, the system might have a band where it
`allows the temperature to get up to 73 and then
`cycles on to cool it down to 71 and then keeps
`repeating that cycling process.
` Would that be an accurate description
`of what you're referring to as "dead band"?
` A It is.
` Q So to keep a temperature constant, an
`HVAC will potentially cycle on and off to keep the
`temperature fairly close to the setpoint, say,
`72 degrees, correct?
` A Yes.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`23
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` Q So, with respect to what we were
`originally talking about, predicting a rate of
`change, when the HVAC system would be operating
`normally, to keep the temperature constant, how
`would the predicted rate of change be used in that
`context?
` MR. LINK: Objection. Form.
` A I'm not sure I understand your
`question.
` Q Sure. Let me take a step back. This
`all started when I asked you about claim 1's use
`of predicted rate of change. And I asked you,
`predicted rate of change under what conditions?
` You gave me -- I believe you answered
`that it could be under a number of conditions,
`including when the HVAC system was operating,
`correct?
` A Yes.
` Q When it's operating normally, an HVA
`[sic] system will try to keep the temperature
`constant?
` A Approximately, yes.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`24
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` Q So, how would the predicted rate of
`change be used, as you've described it with
`respect to claim 1, in keeping the temperature
`constant?
` A I'm just looking back at claim 1 to see
`if I can make sure I'm answering your question
`precisely.
` Claim 1 is not specific about the
`particular way in which that predicted rate of
`change would be used. There are teachings in the
`specification that talk about the predicted rate
`of change and a number of exemplary embodiments.
`But, you know, how exactly, in terms of claim 1,
`it is not particular as to the specific way in
`which the predicted rate of change would be used
`under any particular context. Other than that it
`is used in the process of analyzing the stored
`data and assessing the responses to changes in
`outside temperatures.
` Q If the claim were to be interpreted to
`cover a predicted rate of change when the system
`is operating normally to keep the temperature
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`25
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`approximately constant, how would that be
`understood to work?
` MR. LINK: Objection. Form.
` A I'm not sure I understand your
`question.
` Q Well, you indicated that, in theory,
`the claim could cover predicting a rate of change
`of -- of no rate of change when the system is
`operating normally.
` How would that prescription work, in
`the context of claim 1, if it's covered?
` A Presumably, it would -- in the context
`of the stored data that it's accessing, including
`changes in outside temperatures, it would be able
`to ascertain that the operation of the HVAC would
`be adequate to maintain the temperature at a
`setpoint.
` Q And when you say "the operation would
`be adequate to maintain," you mean the duty cycle
`in the system or something else?
` A The duty cycle, sure.
` Q Can you look at the '550 patent, column
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`26
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`5, lines 17 through 21?
` A Okay.
` Q And there's a reference to Figure 6b in
`the patent there, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And it says, under that figure, "it
`assumes that the air conditioning is turned off
`from noon to 7 p.m. As expected, the inside
`temperature 304a rises with increasing outside
`temperatures 302 for most of that period,"
`correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And it goes to state it "logs the
`temperature readings"; is that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q So how is that used in predicting
`temperature changes?
` MR. LINK: Objection. Form.
` A It's used in terms of characterizing
`the thermal performance of the structure.
` Q But more specifically, if a system --
`if one were to measure what happens when the
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`27
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`system is not operating, and then logs that
`information, is the expectation that that data of
`what happened when the system was actually off
`would be predictive of a similar operation or
`result in similar conditions at a future date?
` A It would be part of the body of data
`that would be analyzed.
` Q What would be the other part of the
`body of data?
` A Other data that was collected under
`other operating conditions.
` Q Other operating conditions being
`different days, different temperatures, or do you
`mean something else?
` A Different days, different temperatures.
`The air-conditioning running or not running, or,
`for that matter, the heat operating or not
`operating.
` Q If you could look at that same column
`5, lines 26 through 29, it says "The performance
`data will allow server 106 to calculate an
`effective thermal mass for each structure- that
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`28
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`is, the speed with the temperature inside a given
`building will change in response to changes in
`outside temperature," correct?
` A That's what it says, yes.
` Q And what does that mean?
` A It means that an analysis of the data
`will provide the server with the information it
`needs to calculate an effective thermal mass of
`the structure.
` Q And what's the thermal mass of the
`structure?
` A As it's defined here, it's the speed
`with which the temperature inside the structure
`will change in response to changes in outside
`temperatures.
` Q So the "mass" here refers to a speed or
`rate of change?
` A Here, it's -- yeah, effectively, it's
`referring to a rate of change in the structure in
`response to changes in outside temperatures.
` Q And that rate of change, what sort
`of -- would that be degrees per unit of time?
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`29
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`Would that be an example of a rate of change of
`temperatures?
` A That would be an example.
` Q Are there other examples?
` A Specifically, for a rate of change of
`temperature, there wouldn't be -- I mean, that
`would be -- you could use different units of
`temperature, you could use different units of
`time. But rate of change of temperature would be
`a change in temperature per unit time.
` Q If you could look at that same column
`5, lines 35 to 40, please. And that states that
`"The ability to predict the rate of change in
`inside temperature in a given house, under varying
`conditions, may be applied by, in effect, holding
`the desired future inside temperature as a
`constraint and using the ability to predict the
`rate of change to determine when the HVAC system
`must be turned on in order to reach the desired
`temperature at the desired time."
` Do you see that?
` A I do.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`30
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` Q I would like to focus on the last part
`of that. It says "using the ability to predict
`the rate of change to determine when the HVAC
`system must be turned on in order to reach a
`specific temperature at a specific time."
` What is that describing?
` A It's describing -- the words, I think,
`are clear that it's describing applying the
`system's understanding of the rate of change in
`order to determine from an existing temperature to
`a desired temperature and desired time. So,
`basically, a recovery time.
` Q When you talk about "recovery time,"
`let's make sure we're on the same page here.
` If a person programmed their thermostat
`for an unoccupied mode and an occupied mode, for
`instance, they were going to be at work until
`6:00 p.m. and they arrive home at 6:00 p.m. So
`they might program the system to get to 72 degrees
`by 6:00 p.m., correct?
` A That would be one potential
`application, yes.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`31
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` Q And the temperature inside the house
`might be, let's say, 80 degrees prior to 6:00 p.m.
`So the system would need to determine at what time
`to start operating in order to reach 72 degrees by
`6:00 p.m., correct?
` A That would be an example, sure.
` Q And the recovery time that you're
`referring to is the time needed to recover from,
`let's say, 80 degrees to 72 degrees, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, how would a predicted rate of
`change, as discussed in the '550 patent, be used
`to determine the recovery time?
` A By analyzing the predicted rate of
`change, as defined in the claims, and
`extrapolating from that information the amount of
`time it would take, given the amount of
`temperature that needs to be modified.
` Q And that would tell the system what
`time to start the recovery?
` A Presumably, that would be one piece of
`information that might be derived by that process.
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
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`32
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` Q In the context of the '550 patent, how
`is the data concerning inside and outside
`temperatures gathered?
` And let me be more specific. In the
`context of claim 1, how would it be gathered?
` A In the context of claim 1, it accesses
`data that's been stored regarding internal
`temperature measurements and outside temperature
`measurements. Those would typically be gathered
`by some sensing mechanism, but the wording of the
`claim is not specific about whether it's used in a
`thermistor or a thermal couple, or some other
`temperature-sensing device, or acquiring it from
`some other resource.
` In the context of claim 1, that data
`has been stored and is being accessed for the
`analysis.
` Q And those examples you gave, such as a
`thermistor, those are examples of types of
`temperature sensors?
` A Yes.
` Q So, likely, a person who is skilled in
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`Transcript of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`Conducted on April 11, 2023
`
`33
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`the art would understand that to gather data on
`inside and outside temperatures, one would use
`inside and outside temperature sensors, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Other than temperature sensors, is
`there a way to gather indoor and outdoor
`temperature readings?
` A Ultimately, any measurement of
`temperature is going to require a temperature
`measurement -- or temperature sensor.
` Q Looking back at the '550 patent,
`column 5, lines 21 through 25, the server logs
`those temperatures, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And that logg
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