`
`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`
`Date: January 13, 2023
`Case: Apple, Inc. -v- CPC Patent Technologies PTY, Ltd. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888-433-3767
`Fax: 888-503-3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`CPC EXHIBIT 2004
`Apple Inc. v. CPC Patent Technologies PTY Ltd.
`IPR2022-00600
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`Page 1 of 88
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ________________________
` PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ________________________
`
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY LTD.,
` Patent Owner
` __________________________
` Case: IPR2022-00600
` U.S. PATENT NO. 8,620,039
` __________________________
`
` PATENT OWNER'S NOTICE OF REMOTE DEPOSITION
` OF
` ANDREW SEARS, PH.D.
`
`Reported by:
`ANNETTE ARLEQUIN, CCR, RPR, CRR, RSA
`JOB NO. 476924
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`2
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` January 13, 2023
` 9:00 a.m. (Central)
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` Patent Owner's Notice of Deposition of
`ANDREW SEARS, PH.D., pursuant to Notice,
`before Annette Arlequin, a Certified Court
`Reporter, a Registered Professional Reporter,
`a Certified Realtime Reporter, and a Realtime
`Systems Administrator and a Notary Public.
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`January 13, 2023
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`3
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`A P P E A R A N C E S: (Remotely)
`
`K&L GATES
`Attorneys for Patent Owner
` 70 West Madison Street, Suite 3300
` Chicago, Illinois 60602
`BY: GEORGE C. SUMMERFIELD, ESQ.
` Email: George.summerfield@klgates.com
` Phone: 1.312.807.4376
`BY: JONAH HEEMSTRA, ESQ.
` Email: Jonah.heemstra@klgates.com
`
`ERISE IP
`Attorneys for Petitioner
` 7015 College Blvd. Ste. 700
` Overland Park, Kansas 66211
`BY: JENNIFER C. BAILEY, ESQ.
` Email: Jennifer.Bailey@eriseip.com
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`January 13, 2023
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`4
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`A P P E A R A N C E S: (Cont'd) (remotely)
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` GLEN FORTNER, Videographer, Planet Depos
` JACKSON SCHUELER, Tech, Planet Depos
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`5
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` MR. SCHUELER: Thank you to everyone for
`attending this proceeding remotely, which we
`anticipate will run smoothly. Please remember to
`speak slowly and do your best not to talk over one
`another.
` Please be aware that we are recording this
`proceeding for backup purposes. Any
`off-the-record discussions should be had away from
`the computer. Please remember to mute your
`microphone for those conversations, and please
`have your video enabled to help the reporter
`identify who's speaking. I apologize for any
`technical-related interruptions. Thank you.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins media
`Number 1 in the videotaped deposition of
`Dr. Andrew Sears in the matter of Apple Inc. v.
`CPC Patent Technologies PTY LTD. in the U.S.
`Patent & Trademark Office, Case Number IPR
`2022-00600.
` Today's date is January 13th, 2023. The
`time on the video monitor is 9:02 Central.
` The remote videographer today is Glen
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
`
`6
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`Fortner representing Planet Depos.
` All parties of this video deposition are
`attending remotely.
` Will counsel please voice identify
`themselves and state whom they represent.
` MS. BAILEY: Jennifer Bailey representing
`petitioner, Apple Inc.
` MR. SUMMERFIELD: George Summerfield from
`K&L Gates representing the patent owner CPC. With
`me is Jonah Heemstra, also from K&L Gates.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter
`today is Annette Arlequin representing Planet
`Depos.
` Will the court reporter please swear in
`the witness.
` * * *
`A N D R E W S E A R S, PH.D., called as a
`witness, having been duly sworn by a Notary
`Public, was examined and testified as follows:
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
`EXAMINATION BY
`MR. SUMMERFIELD:
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
`
`7
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` Q. Thank you.
` Good morning, Dr. Sears.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. So I know this isn't your first time being
`deposed.
` Just one logistical thing I want to go
`over with you. I believe you have the hard copies
`of your declaration and the prior art with you; is
`that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. The technician will be putting up
`electronic versions of those documents on the
`screen as I ask about them, but feel free to
`consult the hard copies that you have with you in
`answering my questions. I think that will be
`easier for you, and it doesn't really matter if
`you're looking at the electronic version or not.
`Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And as I discussed with your counsel, we
`are going to be using the exhibit numbers from the
`inter partes review for the '039, so that is what
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
`
`8
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`I will be referring to when I refer to the
`different exhibit numbers. For example, your
`declaration is Exhibit 1003.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the '039 patent is Exhibit 1001.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So those are the numbers we'll be
`using. And if you are at any time not sure of
`what I'm referring to, please let me know. Okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. Tell us your name please.
` A. Andrew Sears.
` Q. And Dr. Sears, what city do you reside in?
` A. Petrolia, Pennsylvania.
` Q. Okay. We're here to take your deposition
`today about -- regarding a declaration that you
`prepared in connection with the inter partes
`review of the '039 patent.
` Do you understand that is why we are here
`today?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`9
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` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. I want to start with the '039
`patent, which is marked as Exhibit 1001 to the
`inter partes review proceeding.
` Can you pull that out, please.
` (Sears Exhibit 1001, '039 Patent, marked
`for identification, as of this date.)
`BY MR. SUMMERFIELD:
` Q. So if we turn to claim 1.
` (Document review.)
` A. Okay. I'm there.
` Q. A couple of limitations I wanted to ask
`you about.
` When you were looking at the prior art to
`determine whether the limitations were present,
`did you have a definition of biometric card in
`mind?
` A. Well, in the context of the patent, it's a
`card that is providing access to the biometric
`data that's stored in the system.
` Q. And when you say biometric data, what are
`you referring to?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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` A. Well, they refer to the biometric
`signature and then storing --
` (Document review.)
` A. Yes, storing the biometric signature in
`the memory of the system. So that would be
`information, for instance, scanned from a
`fingerprint.
` Q. What makes something biometric?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Scope.
` MR. SUMMERFIELD: Well, okay. Let me
`withdraw that.
`BY MR. SUMMERFIELD:
` Q. Dr. Sears, did you have an understanding
`of the term "biometric" when you were looking to
`see whether the prior art taught the limitations
`of Claim 1.
` A. There's certainly one of the examples that
`they used within the '039 patent, was fingerprint
`information.
` Q. And what was your understanding as to why
`fingerprints are biometric?
` A. Because they can be used to reasonably
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`11
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`uniquely identify an individual.
` Q. Okay. And what did you understand the
`term "defined memory location" to be in Claim 1 as
`you were evaluating the prior art?
` A. So we talked about defined dependent upon
`the card information received. So you need to be
`able to use the card information to -- actually
`let me look.
`(Document review.)
` A. I'm just looking in my declaration.
` Q. Please go ahead. And as with this
`question, in responding to any question if you
`feel like you need to consult particular
`documents, please do so. Just kind of let us know
`what you're looking at.
` A. Okay.
`(Document review.)
` A. So I think a key part of that limitation
`was the "dependent upon phrase" which simply
`indicated that the memory location needed to be
`contingent upon or determined by the information
`that is stored on a card.
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`12
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` Q. So is it fair to say that the information
`stored on the card has to be accessed before the
`memory location is defined?
` A. I think you need to... what the claim
`language is saying is that you need to be able to
`use that information that is stored on the card,
`however you might obtain it, in order to access
`the location in memory where the -- I'm just
`getting the word here -- where the biometric
`signature is stored.
` Q. Well, the biometric signature isn't stored
`until the memory location is defined, correct?
` A. It's not actually stored there. Well,
`yes, so it's not actually stored in memory.
`Well... thinking through the wording here. Can
`you repeat your statement?
` Q. You can't store the biometric signature in
`memory until you have a defined memory location
`for that storage, right?
` A. You cannot store something in memory until
`you know the location where you're going to be
`storing it. So, yes, you have to know that
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`13
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`location.
` Q. And you don't know that location until the
`information from the card has been obtained,
`correct, because it is the information on the card
`that defines the memory location where the
`biometric signature is to be stored, right?
` A. The system does use the information in the
`card in order to define that location, yes. So it
`does need -- the information that is on the card.
`Somehow it has to obtain that information in order
`to be able to point to the correct location in
`memory where the biometric signature will be
`stored.
` Q. So it's card information, first; define
`the storage location, second; storing the
`biometric signature at that location, third,
`right?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Vague.
` A. So you need to have the card information.
`The card information allows you to define the
`location where the information either is or will
`be stored, and then you can store it or you can
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`14
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`access it.
` Q. So, again, just to repeat my question it's
`obtain card information, first; define the memory
`location based on that information, second; store
`the biometric signature at that defined memory
`location, third.
` That is the order that things happen in
`Claim 1, right?
` A. I believe that is the order in which
`things need to happen.
` Q. Okay. So the claim's preamble says: A
`method of enrolling.
` What do you understand the term
`"enrolling" to mean there?
`(Document review.)
` A. I'm looking at my declaration unless I say
`otherwise.
` Q. Please, yes, yes. Thank you for letting
`us know, Dr. Sears.
`(Document review.)
` A. So the enrollment process is the process
`of storing information regarding a user so that
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`you can later authenticate them.
` Q. All right. And then Claim 2, as you'll
`see, is directed to a method of obtaining verified
`access.
` That would be something that happens after
`enrollment, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if you look at the first limitation
`after the preamble in Claim 2, it says: Storing a
`biometric signature according to the enrollment
`method of Claim 1, right?
` A. Yes, it does.
` Q. And that would be the three-part series of
`events that we talked about a little while ago:
`Card information, defining storage location,
`storing biometric signature, right?
` A. With the other steps in there, yes.
` Q. All right. Let's go to paragraph 66 of
`your declaration, Exhibit 1003.
` (Sears Exhibit 1003, Sears Declaration,
`marked for identification, as of this date.)
` (Document review.)
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` A. Can you just make the electronic display a
`little larger so it's readable.
` Q. Let's blow that up. That helps me as
`well.
` So in the second sentence of this
`paragraph 66, you say: In my opinion, Bradford
`teaches a card that stores a unique data sequence
`that allows a matching data sequence to be located
`in a database.
` Do you see that?
` A. I see that sentence, yes.
` Q. But the matching that you're referring to,
`that would not be the enrollment process, right?
` A. Actually, I -- let me read.
`(Document review.)
` A. Actually, I believe that matching does
`occur during the enrollment process.
` Q. How is that?
` Actually, let me ask a better question?
` What is being matched with what during the
`enrollment process, as opposed to the later
`verified-access process?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`17
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` A. Let me get find the right spot.
`(Document review.)
` A. So I would say, in general, and I
`described a -- so in paragraph 80 of my
`declaration, I talked about the first
`authenticator information that is stored on the
`card is read off the card. That is the unique
`identifier which allows you to find the
`corresponding entry in the player ID database.
` So after the user has -- after the player,
`the first authenticator, had been assigned, it's
`on the card, that authentic -- that unique
`identifier is used to access the player entry in
`the database and then that provides access to the
`record in the database where both the first
`authenticator is stored because that's what's
`being matched. And where the second authenticator
`could -- would be stored when it is entered. So
`it's between when the first authenticator is
`entered and when the second authenticator is
`stored.
` Q. The unique data sequence that's referenced
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`18
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`in paragraph 66, is that a biometric signature?
` A. As I state in 66, the -- let's see. I
`note the card can be, for example, a player ID
`card, and the unique data sequence is the first
`authenticator data for finding the matching data
`sequence in the database.
` Q. Is that a biometric signature?
` A. That's not -- that is the first
`authenticator data which is not the biometric
`data.
` Q. So what's created first, then, is it the
`data sequence in the server memory or is it the
`data sequence on the player card?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Vague and lack of
`foundation.
` A. Yeah, can you rephrase that one?
` Q. Well, when we talked about what's being
`matched with what during the enrollment process,
`you said that there is a data sequence in memory
`that identifies a user, and then there is a data
`sequence on the card that's matched to that data
`sequence in memory, right?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`19
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. What's created first, the data
`sequence in the memory or the data sequence on the
`card, in Bradford?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Objection. Vague
`and lack of foundation.
` (Document review.)
` A. So Bradford teaches -- I'm looking at my
`declaration in paragraph 90, that the -- that
`during enrollment, player's entry is created and
`stored with the first authenticator data, and that
`the player is provided with an ID card that also
`has that first authenticator data.
` Q. So they're created simultaneously?
` A. I don't think it's specified, the order.
`I'm not sure the order is particularly critical.
` Q. Let's take a look at figure 6 of Bradford.
`Sorry. Let's go to Exhibit 1004, which is the
`Bradford reference that we've been talking about
`and turn to figure 6, if we can.
` (Sears Exhibit 1004, US Patent No.
`,612,928 B1, marked for identification, as of
`this date.)
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`20
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`BY MR. SUMMERFIELD:
` Q. So this figure is entitled: Method of
`creating a fingerprint-based record (or other
`biometric record) in a database.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So Block 602 is labeled: Present ID,
`present information to authorize casino person.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So the ID would be, for example, a
`driver's license, as you understand it?
` A. It could be.
` Q. It not be the biometric card, right?
` A. I would look have to look at Bradford in
`more detail to see exactly what they're
`referencing when they talk about 602, to say
`definitively.
` Q. Well, if this is the enrollment process,
`there wouldn't be a biometric card yet, would
`there?
`(Document review.)
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`21
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` Q. Dr. Sears, let me withdraw that question
`and refer you to Box 603.
` You understand that Box 603 happens after
`box 602?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So present ID happens first and then
`provide a first authenticator to player.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. The first authenticator, unless it's a
`fingerprint, would be the card? The player card?
` A. Yes, the first authenticator is not the
`biometric data or biometric information.
` Q. Well, my question was: The ID that's
`presented in 602, that is not the player card, is
`it?
` A. That's what I was reading about, because I
`believe Bradford allows some significant
`flexibility in terms of what actually serves as
`the player card.
` Q. All right. But in this figure, what's
`being shown here, the ID that's presented is
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`22
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`presented for the first authenticator as provided
`to the user; is that right?
` A. In this figure the way it's laid out. But
`again, the -- Bradford allows for significant
`flexibility in terms of what actually serves as
`the player ID card. And if I remember right, the
`user can use something that is preexisting, like a
`driver's license for that purpose.
` Q. That becomes the player ID card at that
`point, right?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. Right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. SUMMERFIELD: Let's take a look at
`column 16, lines 40 to 45 of Bradford, if we can.
` (Document review.)
` MR. SCHUELER: Can you direct me again?
` MR. SUMMERFIELD: Column 16, lines 40 to
`45.
`BY MR. SUMMERFIELD:
` Q. And if you can just read that to yourself,
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`23
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`ending with the words: Print data, line 45,
`Dr. Sears.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Let me know when you're done.
`(Document review.)
` A. I've read it.
` Q. Okay. So it says: The system creates the
`entry in the player ID database.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would the entry in the player ID database
`be the defined memory location?
` A. That is going to be the defined memory
`location, yes.
` Q. Okay. After the player ID database is
`created, then this passage says: Associating the
`data corresponding to a first and second
`authenticator with this entry.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. So the database entry is created first,
`and then there is an association between the first
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`24
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`and second authenticator, right?
` A. In that particular embodiment, yes.
` Q. Until this association occurs, is there
`any association between the fingerprint data or
`the biometric data and the first authenticator?
` A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question?
` Q. Before this association happens,
`associating the data corresponding to a first and
`second authentic authenticator, until that
`happens, is there any association between
`biometric data and a first authenticator?
` A. The creation of the entry. I mean, at
`that point you have an entry that has those two
`pieces connected.
` Q. Then what is the purpose of the
`associating step if those are already connected at
`the time the database entry is created?
` A. I think it's simply stating that that
`process of creating has created this association
`between those two items --
` Q. What do you understand --
`(Multiple speakers.)
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`25
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` A. -- going to be stored.
` Q. I'm sorry. What do you understand the
`term "associating" to mean there?
` A. I think it's simply describing the reality
`of what happens when you create the database
`entry, is that those two items are associated at
`that point. They're related.
` Q. When that association happens, right?
` A. When the entry is created. So I don't
`think the associating is any additional step, is
`what I'm trying to say. I don't think it's an
`additional step or a process beyond creating the
`entry in the database in terms of the storage
`locations.
` Q. And what dictates where in memory the
`entry of the player ID data -- the entry in the
`player ID database is going to be stored?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Vague.
` A. The first authenticator information is
`what is used to -- what's used to define that
`location within the database.
` Q. Where do you see that?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`26
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` A. I'm saying that based on the fact that the
`card data is used to find -- when you access the
`database, you access the database by looking up
`entries in that database.
` Q. My question is: Where do you see that in
`Bradford that it is the data sequence on the
`player ID card that determines where the entry in
`the player ID database is going to be stored?
`(Document review.)
` A. Well, I would refer to things such as
`column 6, line 4, where it says the data that is
`read off the card, so it's that, the card
`information, is used to find the matching
`authenticator data in the player ID database. So
`that is what is used to find an entry in the
`database.
` Q. Yes, but the database already has that
`sequence in it, right? That's the only way those
`two things can be matched, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. So the database -- the sequence is
`already in there, right?
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`27
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` A. For the first authenticator data.
` Q. Yes, in the database?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And the finding and the matching,
`when the card is used, presupposes that that data
`is already there, right?
` A. Yes, the finding is a process of matching
`the first authenticator data that you have gotten
`from the card to part of a player entry in the
`player ID database.
` Q. Is it fair to say, then, that when the
`player first enrolls, there is a data sequence
`that's entered in the database that uniquely
`identifies that person and that defines where the
`entry in the player ID database is going to be
`stored?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Foundation.
` A. Can you repeat it again?
` Q. Is it fair to say that during the
`enrollment process, in Bradford, after the user
`presents a driver's license or whatever, the
`casino attendant then creates a database or
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`28
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`database entry in the user ID database, then hands
`the player a player card or whatever the first
`authenticator is going to be?
`(Document review.)
` A. I don't know that the precise order of
`giving them the card and creating the database is
`explicitly stated.
` Q. Dr. Sears, is it the case that, in
`Bradford, the casino attendant creates the player
`ID card first, hands it to the player, and then
`says, hey, give me that back so I can create the
`database entry now?
` A. I don't believe that is stated in there or
`not.
` Q. Do you understand Bradford to be saying
`that that's a possibility?
` A. Bradford --
` MS. BAILEY: Objection to form.
` A. Bradford does not expressly teach how a
`stored player's entry is retrieved in that
`particular part of the process.
` Q. It hasn't been stored yet. I'm talking
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`Transcript of Andrew Sears, Ph.D.
`January 13, 2023
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`29
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`about the enrollment process now.
` Is it your understanding that Bradford
`contemplates an embodiment where the casino
`attendant creates the player ID card first, hands
`it to the player and then takes it back to create
`the database entry?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection to form and
`foundation.
` A. I don't see anything in Bradford that says
`that they asked for the card back from the user to
`create the database entry.
` Q. Do you see anything that says that
`something other than the creation of the database
`entry happens first?
` MS. BAILEY: Objection. Form and
`foundation.
`(Document review.)
` A. Okay. I've been reading. Can you just
`were repeat the question?
` Q. Do you see anything in Bradford that
`suggests that something other than the creation of
`the database entry happens first?
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