·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·2
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · _________
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`Page 1
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · APPLE, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·7
`· · · · · · · CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY., LTD.,
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·9
`
`10· · · · IPR2022-00601 of U.S. Patent No. 9,269,208
`· · · · · IPR2022-00602 of U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
`11
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · _________
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16· ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, III, PhD
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`17· · · · · · · · Taken on Behalf of Petitioner
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`18· · · · · · · · · · Tuesday, April 4, 2023
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 1
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·2
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · _________
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`Page 1
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · APPLE, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·7
`· · · · · · · CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY., LTD.,
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·9
`
`10· · · · IPR2022-00601 of U.S. Patent No. 9,269,208
`· · · · · IPR2022-00602 of U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
`11
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · _________
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16· ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, III, PhD
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`17· · · · · · · · Taken on Behalf of Petitioner
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`18· · · · · · · · · · Tuesday, April 4, 2023
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX OF EXAMINATION
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`Page 2
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`·2· ·WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, III, PhD· · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3· ·Examination by Ms. Bailey. . . . . . . . . . . .· · 5
`
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · oOo
`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX OF EXHIBITS
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`·7· ·EXHIBITS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·8· ·No. 1001 - U.S. Patent Number 8,620,039, Burke,
`· · · · · · · · 12/31/13. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 6
`·9
`· · ·No. 1004 - U.S. Patent Number 6,612,928,
`10· · · · · · · Bradford, et al., 9/02/03 . . . . . .· · 6
`
`11· ·No. 1005 - U.S. Patent Application Publication,
`· · · · · · · · No. 2005/0127169 25, 1/16/05. . . . .· · 6
`12
`· · ·No. 1006 - U.S. Patent Application Publication,
`13· · · · · · · No. 2001/0014883, 8/16/01 . . . . . .· · 6
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`14· ·No. 2001 - Dr. Easttom's Declaration, 1/17/23. .· · 6
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`15
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · oOo
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`17· · · · · (Premarked exhibits retained by counsel)
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · · · · oOo
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·2
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · _________
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`Page 3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · APPLE, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·7
`· · · · · · · CPC PATENT TECHNOLOGIES PTY., LTD.,
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`·9
`
`10· · · · IPR2022-00601 of U.S. Patent No. 9,269,208
`· · · · · IPR2022-00602 of U.S. Patent No. 9,665,705
`11
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · _________
`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16· · · · · · · ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C.
`
`17· ·EASTTOM, III, PhD, produced, sworn and examined on
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`18· ·April 4, 2023, between the hours of 9:02 a.m. and
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`19· ·10:42 a.m. of that day, before Connie McCarthy, CCR,
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`20· ·RMR, CRR.
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2· · · · · · ·(All parties participated via Zoom)
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`Page 4
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`·3
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`·4· · · · For the Petitioner:
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`·5· · · · · · ·JENNIFER C. BAILEY, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·Erise IP, PA
`·6· · · · · · ·7015 College Boulevard
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 700
`·7· · · · · · ·Overland Park, Kansas 66211
`· · · · · · · ·(913) 777-5600
`·8· · · · · · ·jennifer.bailey@eriseip.com
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`·9· · · · For the Patent Owner:
`
`10· · · · · · ·JONAH B. HEEMSTRA, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·K & L Gates, LLP
`11· · · · · · ·70 West Madison Street
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 3300
`12· · · · · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60602
`· · · · · · · ·(312) 372-1121
`13· · · · · · ·Jonah.Heemstra@klgates.com
`
`14
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`15· · · · · · ·Also Present:· ADAM SANDWELL
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Senior Patent Agent
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Erise IP, PA
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·Reported By:
`· · ·Connie McCarthy, RMR, CRR
`25· ·MO CCR #1435
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`Page 5
`·1· ·Tuesday, April 4, 2023· · · · · · · · · · · 9:02 a.m.
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`·2
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`·3· · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Exhibit No. 1001, Exhibit
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`·4· ·No. 1004, Exhibit No. 1005, Exhibit No. 1006, and
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`·5· ·Exhibit No. 2001 were premarked by counsel)
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · ·WILLIAM C. EASTTOM, III, PhD,
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`·8· · · ·called as a witness by the Petitioner, having
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`·9· · · · · ·been duly sworn, testified as follows:
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`10
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`12· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Good morning, Dr. Easttom.· Could you state
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`14· ·your full name for the record, please?
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`15· · · · A.· ·Good morning.· It's William Charles
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`16· ·Easttom II.· I traditionally use my middle name,
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`17· ·Chuck.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·Thank you.· I'd like to confirm that your
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`19· ·counsel has provided you a clean, hard copy of the
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`20· ·record of this IPR?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Well, actually, it has not arrived.· But I
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`22· ·have a clean electronic copy with no notes, no
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`23· ·highlights.· Nothing of that nature.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.· So you'll be referring
`
`25· ·to that clean electronic copy in today's deposition;
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 5
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`·1· ·is that correct?
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`Page 6
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`·2· · · · A.· ·That's correct.· And except for the Zoom
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`·3· ·window, that is the only thing open on this computer.
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`·4· ·And all other devices in this room have been turned
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`·5· ·off.
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·Great.· Thank you so much for confirming
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`·7· ·that.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·For the court reporter's purposes today we
`
`·9· ·may talk about the following documents and exhibits:
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`10· · · · · · ·The patent owner response, which is
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`11· ·Paper 12 in the proceeding.
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`12· · · · · · ·The '039 patent, which is Exhibit 1001, and
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`13· ·that is U.S. Patent Number 8,620,039.
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`14· · · · · · ·The Declaration of Dr. Easttom, which is
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`15· ·Exhibit 1003 -- oh, I'm sorry, I apologize.· That is
`
`16· ·not the correct exhibit number.· It's Exhibit 2001.
`
`17· · · · · · ·U.S. Patent Number 6,612,928 to Bradford,
`
`18· ·which is Exhibit 1004.
`
`19· · · · · · ·U.S. Patent Application, Publication
`
`20· ·No. 2005/0127169 25, which is Exhibit 1005.
`
`21· · · · · · ·And U.S. Patent Application, Publication
`
`22· ·No. 2001/0014883 to Yamane.· That's Y-A-M-A-N-E.· And
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`23· ·that's Exhibit 1006.
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`24· · · · · · ·Dr. Easttom, have you ever worked in a
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`25· ·casino?
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`IPR2022-00600
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`·1· · · · A.· ·No.
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`Page 7
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever consulted for a casino?
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`·3· · · · A.· ·There was a case many years ago that
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`·4· ·involved gaming patents, and I want to say the name
`
`·5· ·of the case involved the company Amerant.· But that
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`·6· ·was many, many years ago.· That would have been my
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`·7· ·only consulting with a casino.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·Do you recall the nature of the technology
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`·9· ·that was in those patents?
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`10· · · · A.· ·It's been about 12 years.· I don't recall.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever been to a casino?
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`12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever consulted or been employed to
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`14· ·provide guidance for recommendations on best
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`15· ·practices for insuring compliance with laws regarding
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`16· ·operating a casino?
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`17· · · · A.· ·No.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·Are you knowledgeable regarding gaming laws
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`19· ·and regulations?
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`20· · · · A.· ·Reasonably knowledgeable.· This may come
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`21· ·out wrong, but I frequent casinos.· I enjoy playing
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`22· ·blackjack.· Nearby me is an Indian casino and I get
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`23· ·out to Vegas at least once or twice a year.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·And so from playing in the casino and
`
`25· ·visiting a casino, you feel like you're knowledgeable
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`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 7
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`·1· ·regarding casino gaming laws and regulations?
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`Page 8
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`·2· · · · A.· ·Well, not just from being there.· I have an
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`·3· ·interest in the topic so I read up on it quite a lot.
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`·4· ·For example, Nevada's the only state where gambling
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`·5· ·debts are legally enforceable.
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`·6· · · · · · ·With the Indian casinos, they have a whole
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`·7· ·different set of laws.· In fact, most of the Indian
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`·8· ·casinos do something that's not done elsewhere.· They
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`·9· ·actually have an ante, even in games of blackjack,
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`10· ·which is a totally different thing than everywhere
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`11· ·else.
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`12· · · · · · ·So the way games are played is a little bit
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`13· ·different, based on regulations.· Again to the Indian
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`14· ·casinos, because there's one close to me, they come
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`15· ·under either federal or Indian law, not state or
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`16· ·local law.· So you have an entirely different legal
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`17· ·framework there.
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`18· · · · · · ·Now, I'm not an attorney in gaming law or
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`19· ·anything of that nature, but I'm reasonably familiar.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever read any statutes,
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`21· ·regulations or rules regarding gaming in casinos?
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`22· · · · A.· ·Yes, I've read a few of the statutes.
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`23· ·Nevada has extensive gaming laws and even a gaming
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`24· ·commission that has law enforcement sworn officers to
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`25· ·do investigation.· I've read many of their documents.
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·What kind of documents have you read?
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`Page 9
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`·2· · · · A.· ·Some of the statutes regarding requirements
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`·3· ·for casinos.· For example, they must maintain a
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`·4· ·certain amount of funding on-site, and it's relative
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`·5· ·to the number of chips they have in play.· That's
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`·6· ·similar to a bank having to have a certain amount of
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`·7· ·funding relevant to the loans they have out.
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`·8· · · · · · ·Issues regarding how casinos can go about
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`·9· ·banning someone.· Card counting is a big thing.
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`10· ·Technically, for example, in the Indian casinos,
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`11· ·there's no law against that, but they will make you
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`12· ·uncomfortable to be there, whereas in Nevada there
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`13· ·are actually laws against card counting.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever done any work on advising a
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`15· ·casino on security concerns?
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`16· · · · A.· ·No.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·Have you ever advised a casino on shielding
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`18· ·that casino from liability?
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`19· · · · A.· ·No.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·What about advising a casino on shielding a
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`21· ·casino from being accused of rigging games during
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`22· ·training?
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`23· · · · A.· ·No.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·Could you please turn to the '039 patent,
`
`25· ·which is Exhibit 1001?
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`Apple EX1039 Page 9
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`·1· · · · A.· ·I have it in front of me.
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`Page 10
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·So this is the second time that I have
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`·3· ·deposed you, and if you'll recall the last time, I
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`·4· ·would point out a section to read and ask you to read
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`·5· ·it to yourself and I'm going to do the same thing
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`·6· ·today.· Please take your time to read that section
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`·7· ·and whatever other sections you want to read
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`·8· ·appropriate.· Does that sound good?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·That sounds good.· And I do recall.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So please turn to Column 7, Line 24.
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`11· ·And this is a pretty extensive paragraph, so please
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`12· ·go ahead and read that paragraph to yourself.
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`13· · · · A.· ·You said starting at 24?
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Yes.· Column 7, Line 24 of the '039 patent.
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`15· · · · A.· ·I have read it.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Could you also please read Claim 1
`
`17· ·of the '039 patent?
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`18· · · · A.· ·I have read it.
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`19· · · · Q.· ·Do you see that in Claim 1 of the '039
`
`20· ·patent, it includes the limitation receiving card
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`21· ·information?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·That is one of the first of the steps
`
`23· ·enumerated in Claim 1, yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I want to flip back to Column 7 and
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`25· ·the paragraph that you just read and I want to talk
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`IPR2022-00600
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`·1· ·about what is card information.
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`·2· · · · · · ·May we go off the record for just one
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`Page 11
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`·3· ·moment, please?
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`·4· · · · · · ·(Pause in proceedings)
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`·5· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·So, Dr. Easttom, do you see in Column 7,
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`·7· ·Line 24 and 25, that the card information is referred
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`·8· ·to reference Number 605?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·Oh, yes.· It says, This card information,
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`10· ·605, typically comprising three fields, namely 602
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`11· ·which is the card type, 603 which is the card range,
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`12· ·and 604 which comprises card data specific to the
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`13· ·particular card 601.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Would you agree that the card information
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`15· ·605 that's described in that sentence that you just
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`16· ·read is encompassed by the card information in
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`17· ·Claim 1?
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`18· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Objection, form.
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`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Let me look at this again
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`20· ·very quickly.· Excuse me.
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`21· · · · · · ·I don't know that the word "encompassed"
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`22· ·would be accurate.· I might say that's certainly
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`23· ·related to Claim 1.
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`24· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Do you see in Column 7 the paragraph
`
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`·1· ·beginning at Line 24 that the card information
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`Page 12
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`·2· ·comprises three fields?
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`·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well --
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`·4· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Objection.
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`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sorry, I jumped the gun.· My
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`·6· ·apologies.
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`·7· · · · · · ·It actually says typically comprises.
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`·8· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Can you explain to me the different types
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`10· ·of card information that are discussed here?
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`11· · · · A.· ·Yes.· The first one, card type.· Now, this
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`12· ·is a fairly broad category that would define perhaps
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`13· ·the use of the card.· The patent also mentions you
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`14· ·could have a key fob versus a traditional credit
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`15· ·card-like card.· These would be card type.
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`16· · · · · · ·Card range, that's a little more difficult.
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`17· ·I'll have to refamiliarize myself.· Just a moment.
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`18· · · · · · ·Well, that is the only place they use the
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`19· ·phrase "card range".· We'll have to come back to that
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`20· ·in just a moment to define it.· It's item 603, which
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`21· ·would be helpful.
`
`22· · · · · · ·And then 604, card data specific to the
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`23· ·particular card.· Now, that to me is probably the
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`24· ·most important because different cards are being used
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`25· ·for different purposes, and the patent allows for
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`·1· ·different information to be stored depending on the
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`·2· ·purpose of the card.· So that could be some sort of
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`·3· ·identifying number, Social Security number, user
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`·4· ·name.· Could be any number of things.· Whatever's
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`·5· ·required for the particular implementation.
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`·6· · · · · · ·In fact, on the diagram on 6 it says, 604,
`
`·7· ·card data points to address of biometric signature.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·What does it mean for the card data to
`
`·9· ·point to the address of the biometric signature?
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`10· · · · A.· ·First of all, to correct my previous
`
`11· ·answer, looking at 6 -- Figure 4, 602, 603, clarifies
`
`12· ·many things.· 602 is card Type.· 603, card range.
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`13· ·Which together form a header to determine the
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`14· ·permitted set of cards that can be used.
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`15· · · · · · ·604 is pointing to the address of biometric
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`16· ·signature.
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`17· · · · · · ·Part of the patented invention is to
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`18· ·identify an area in memory that's available to
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`19· ·establish a memory address and then to place
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`20· ·biometric data in it.· In fact, I believe that one of
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`21· ·the issues in this case has been the whole issue of
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`22· ·what it means to establish.· And I'm looking for the
`
`23· ·actual claim language here.· Just a moment, please.
`
`24· ·It's important to answering that question.
`
`25· · · · · · ·Claim 1 itself, defining a memory location
`
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`Page 14
`·1· ·in local memory external to the card.· Now, when we
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`·2· ·look back at the diagram that we were just
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`·3· ·discussing, 604, once you have defined that memory
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`·4· ·address, then there needs to be some way for the card
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`·5· ·to subsequently access it to get to the biometric
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`·6· ·signature.· And that would be item 604.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·I believe you just said that once the
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`·8· ·memory reference is defined, then the system needs
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`·9· ·something from the card to subsequently access that
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`10· ·memory reference; is that correct?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·It's relatively close.· If we look at
`
`12· ·Figure 4 alongside Claim 1, I think that provides a
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`13· ·lot of clarity.· Claim 1, as we've been looking at,
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`14· ·talks about receiving card information, receiving the
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`15· ·biometric signature, then defining, dependent upon
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`16· ·the received card information, a memory location in a
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`17· ·local memory external to the card, not part of the
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`18· ·card, determining if that defined memory location is
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`19· ·occupied, and storing the biometric signature at that
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`20· ·location.
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`21· · · · · · ·So when we're looking back at Figure 4, 604
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`22· ·is going to have card data that will point to the
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`23· ·address in the external memory and something other
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`24· ·than the card.· And the Figure 4 actually shows 607,
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`25· ·which is the memory address defined by the card data
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`IPR2022-00600
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`·1· ·in 124 local database.
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`Page 15
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·So you agree that the card data shown in
`
`·3· ·Figure 4, which is reference numeral 604, points to
`
`·4· ·an address, a memory address, that is defined by that
`
`·5· ·card data; is that correct?
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Objection, form.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, that's very, very
`
`·8· ·close.· 604 points to an address of a biometric
`
`·9· ·signature.· Now, that address, if you look at
`
`10· ·Claim 1, was defined dependent upon received card
`
`11· ·information in the memory database.· So we can see
`
`12· ·back in Figure 4 we have 607, which is the actual
`
`13· ·address defined by the card data in the local
`
`14· ·database 124.· There's a very close relationship
`
`15· ·between 604 and 607.
`
`16· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·So how does the card data define the memory
`
`18· ·address?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Well, we go back to Claim 1 again.· And we
`
`20· ·go through these specific steps that I believe
`
`21· ·there's no disagreement that these happen in order.
`
`22· ·You -- first, the system receives card information.
`
`23· ·It receives a biometric signature.· Now that it has
`
`24· ·this data, it's going to look at the received card
`
`25· ·information and define a memory location in a local
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 15
`
`
`
`·1· ·memory external to the card.
`
`Page 16
`
`·2· · · · · · ·Now, that defining a local memory external
`
`·3· ·to the memory card, this requires a little bit of
`
`·4· ·technical discussion on how RAM works.· You have
`
`·5· ·addresses, usually determined by hexadecimal numbers.
`
`·6· ·Now, it's not immediately allocated.· For example,
`
`·7· ·you have an amorphous blob of addresses that when
`
`·8· ·something gets loaded in the memory, it allocated for
`
`·9· ·specific items.· So what has to occur in the
`
`10· ·invention here, the '039 patent, is we take a look at
`
`11· ·what we received from the card, we received card
`
`12· ·information.· Among other things, that's going to
`
`13· ·tell us how much memory we need to allocate.· Do I
`
`14· ·need 20 bytes?· Do I need 40 bytes?· What do I need?
`
`15· · · · · · ·And then, based on that information, I'm
`
`16· ·going to define a memory location in the local
`
`17· ·memory, see if it's unoccupied.· And assuming it's
`
`18· ·not, I'm going to store the biometric signature at
`
`19· ·that location.
`
`20· · · · · · ·Put more briefly, the card's going to say,
`
`21· ·and the system's going to say, What's the data on the
`
`22· ·card you're about to give me?· For example, a
`
`23· ·biometric signature?· Let me go find some memory.
`
`24· ·Let me define some specific memory for this based on
`
`25· ·what I need to store, size, things of that nature.
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 16
`
`
`
`Page 17
`·1· ·Make sure the memory I've defined is unoccupied.· And
`
`·2· ·store the data.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·In your opinion, does Claim 1 of the '039
`
`·4· ·patent require the step of receiving a biometric
`
`·5· ·signature to occur after the step of receiving card
`
`·6· ·information?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Well, that's certainly the plain reading of
`
`·8· ·the claim.· We have a method comprising the steps of:
`
`·9· ·Receiving the card information, then receiving the
`
`10· ·biometric signature, defining the dependent --
`
`11· ·defining, dependent upon receiving that information,
`
`12· ·a memory location.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·So is it your understanding that because
`
`14· ·receiving the biometric signature is listed after the
`
`15· ·step of receiving card information that in Claim 1,
`
`16· ·receiving card information has to happen before
`
`17· ·receiving the biometric signature?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it
`
`19· ·absolutely must happen, but if you look at the
`
`20· ·sequence of events -- well, many of them have to
`
`21· ·happen in the specific order given here.· You
`
`22· ·couldn't do Step 3, defining dependent on received
`
`23· ·card information of memory location if you haven't
`
`24· ·first received the card information.· You couldn't do
`
`25· ·Step 4, determining the defined memory location is
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 17
`
`
`
`Page 18
`·1· ·unoccupied without the previous step.· You couldn't
`
`·2· ·do storing the biometric signature if you haven't
`
`·3· ·done the previous steps.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·At least all but the first two have to be
`
`·5· ·done in that precise order or they simply won't work.
`
`·6· ·So that would certainly imply that the inventor had
`
`·7· ·in mind doing these steps in order.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·In addition, the inventor didn't word it
`
`·9· ·saying, Do these things.· He specifically used the
`
`10· ·term "steps", which usually involves in sequence.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·So in your opinion, does Claim 1 require
`
`12· ·the step of defining a memory location to occur after
`
`13· ·the step of receiving the biometric signature?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry, could you say that again? I
`
`15· ·didn't quite catch that.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· In your opinion, does Claim 1
`
`17· ·require the step of defining a memory location to
`
`18· ·occur after the step of receiving the biometric
`
`19· ·signature?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·And what leads you to that conclusion?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Well, again, we have a specific series of
`
`23· ·steps being given in a specific order.· But beyond
`
`24· ·that, the defining is dependent upon received card
`
`25· ·information.· We're receiving card information or
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 18
`
`
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`·1· ·we're receiving a biometric signature.· The card
`
`Page 19
`
`·2· ·information, as we looked at before, has a variety of
`
`·3· ·different aspects to it including card type and card
`
`·4· ·range.· This is going to help us decide what we're
`
`·5· ·doing with this biometric signature.· What are we
`
`·6· ·storing here?
`
`·7· · · · · · ·So we need the card information and the
`
`·8· ·biometric signature in order to define the memory and
`
`·9· ·then to store the biometric signature in that defined
`
`10· ·memory location.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·So is it your opinion that the memory
`
`12· ·location is defined not just only on the received
`
`13· ·card information, but also the received biometric
`
`14· ·signature?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Well, I didn't say defined based on that.
`
`16· ·But the card information is going to tell us a number
`
`17· ·of things we need to know.· For example, going back
`
`18· ·to Figure 4, we have a card type and a card range.
`
`19· ·According to Claim 1, defining dependent upon
`
`20· ·received card information of memory location.· Now,
`
`21· ·the location can be a starting address.· But I can do
`
`22· ·that strictly off receiving card information.· But
`
`23· ·later, determining if the location is unoccupied,
`
`24· ·I'll need to know how much memory I'm going to be
`
`25· ·using up.· And I would -- a POSITA would understand I
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 19
`
`
`
`·1· ·need to know how big a thing I'm putting in there.
`
`Page 20
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·So under the scenario that you just
`
`·3· ·described, could the Claim 1 be interpreted that the
`
`·4· ·receiving the biometric signature stuff is performed
`
`·5· ·after the step of defining a memory location?
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Objection, form.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm going -- I'm going to
`
`·8· ·have to ask you to restate that.· I didn't quite
`
`·9· ·follow.
`
`10· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Under your interpretation of
`
`12· ·Claim 1, could the step of receiving the biometric
`
`13· ·signature be performed after the step of defining a
`
`14· ·memory location?
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Same objection.
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I thought I heard you.· The
`
`17· ·"could" is the issue in that question.· Could the
`
`18· ·inventor have defined things as a different
`
`19· ·invention?· They could have, I suppose, but they
`
`20· ·didn't.· They were defined in a particular order, and
`
`21· ·looking at Claim 1 in isolation may be misleading.
`
`22· ·There's an entire patent describing an entire
`
`23· ·process, and this is how the inventor described his
`
`24· ·particular invention.· Could I, perhaps with a little
`
`25· ·work, come up with a different invention?· I'm sure I
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 20
`
`
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`·1· ·could.
`
`·2· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`Page 21
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Dr. Easttom, I think you understand that
`
`·4· ·Claim 1 is interpreted in a certain way and that's
`
`·5· ·what the parties have been discussing in this
`
`·6· ·proceeding.· So I'm asking you, under your
`
`·7· ·interpretation of Claim 1, would the step of
`
`·8· ·receiving the biometric signature be performed after
`
`·9· ·the step of defining a memory location?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Well, I first have to ask a clarifying
`
`11· ·question.· You said interpreted in a certain way.· My
`
`12· ·understanding is everything in the patent should be
`
`13· ·read in light of a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`14· ·art.· Is that accurate?· That's what you're saying?
`
`15· ·That's what you meant?
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·I'm asking what your opinion is on the
`
`17· ·interpretation of Claim 1 and whether the step of
`
`18· ·receiving the biometric signature could be performed
`
`19· ·after the step of defining a memory location within
`
`20· ·the context of Claim 1?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Well, unfortunately, that didn't actually
`
`22· ·answer my clarifying question.· You used the phrase
`
`23· ·that we're interpreting it -- and I believe you said
`
`24· ·in a certain light.· And I'm trying to clarify what
`
`25· ·light you mean.
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 21
`
`
`
`Page 22
`·1· · · · Q.· ·I'm -- I want it to be interpreted by your
`
`·2· ·light.· I'm asking what your opinion is.
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·Okay.· Well, my understanding is that
`
`·4· ·everything's interpreted from the viewpoint of one of
`
`·5· ·ordinary skill in the art at the time.· And I believe
`
`·6· ·Apple has proposed at least a bachelor's degree in
`
`·7· ·computer engineering, computer science, electrical
`
`·8· ·engineering, or related field, with at least one year
`
`·9· ·experience in the field of human machine interfaces
`
`10· ·and device access security.· Additional education or
`
`11· ·experience may substitute for the above requirements.
`
`12· · · · · · ·And I don't disagree with that.· I see no
`
`13· ·reason to disagree with that.· That is the
`
`14· ·perspective I used when interpreting everything in
`
`15· ·the patent.
`
`16· · · · · · ·So putting on that hat, one of ordinary
`
`17· ·skill in the art at the time of the invention, I'm
`
`18· ·going to look at Claim 1.· I'm going to first of all
`
`19· ·say, What did the inventor actually write?· I'm not
`
`20· ·going to get too speculative at first, at least, what
`
`21· ·they could have written.· What did they write?· And
`
`22· ·I'm going to look at they give a series of steps in a
`
`23· ·particular order.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Well, if that's not clear enough, I'm going
`
`25· ·to go back and look through the patent, particularly
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 22
`
`
`
`Page 23
`·1· ·at figures that give me a sequence.· And I'm going to
`
`·2· ·look through the various figures and see what they
`
`·3· ·can tell me.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Now, we looked at Figure 4 before, which is
`
`·5· ·a good one, because we're gathering the information
`
`·6· ·we just talked about at a particular point.· But
`
`·7· ·Figure 5 actually goes through step-by-step.· Card
`
`·8· ·device engaged.· Yes.· Process card information.
`
`·9· ·Request and receive biometric signature.· And so on
`
`10· ·and so on.· It gives me an exact, step-by-step.
`
`11· · · · · · ·So not only is the Claim 1 in this specific
`
`12· ·order, but Figure -- I think I just said it --
`
`13· ·Figure 5 is in that same order.· There's only one
`
`14· ·interpretation one of ordinary skill in the art would
`
`15· ·come to, that this is the order the inventor intended
`
`16· ·things to be done at.
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·So in your opinion, referring to Claim 1,
`
`18· ·the step of receiving the biometric signature must be
`
`19· ·performed before the step of defining a memory
`
`20· ·location?· Is my understanding correct?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·I'm just trying to understand your use of
`
`22· ·the word must.· In light of what the inventor of the
`
`23· ·'039 disclosed, that's what is happening.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Dr. Easttom, you understand that Claim 1 is
`
`25· ·a method claim, correct?
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It starts off with the phrasing,
`
`Page 24
`
`·2· ·method of.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·And you have made opinions in your
`
`·4· ·declaration that certain steps of this method claim
`
`·5· ·must be performed in a certain order; is that
`
`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·So I am trying to understand whether your
`
`·9· ·opinion -- I am trying to understand what your
`
`10· ·opinion is with respect to the order of steps of
`
`11· ·receiving the biometric signature and defining a
`
`12· ·memory location.
`
`13· · · · A.· ·Well, thank you for that clarification.
`
`14· ·Since we are talking about my declaration, let me
`
`15· ·refresh my memory by turning to it.· Now, this would
`
`16· ·go faster if you have a specific section you're
`
`17· ·thinking of.· If not, I'll scan till I find it.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·If you look at Paragraph 35, you have a
`
`19· ·discussion of the steps.
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Thank you.
`
`21· · · · · · ·These are precisely the steps we were just
`
`22· ·discussing in Figure 5, and precisely the steps that
`
`23· ·are enumerated in order of Claim 1.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·So I'm going to ask the same question
`
`25· ·again:· Is it your opinion that the step of receiving
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 24
`
`
`
`Page 25
`·1· ·the biometric signature in Claim 1 must be performed
`
`·2· ·before the step of defining a memory location?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·In order to reach the limitations of
`
`·4· ·Claim 1, yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Could you please turn to your declaration,
`
`·6· ·Paragraph 41?· And please go ahead and read it to
`
`·7· ·yourself.
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·I have read it.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·So it is your opinion that the claim
`
`10· ·construction for the term "defining" as used in
`
`11· ·the -- in Claim 1 of the '039 patent is setting or
`
`12· ·establishing a memory location?· Is that correct?
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. HEEMSTRA:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't see that in this
`
`15· ·paragraph.· Do you see that here in 40?
`
`16· ·BY MS. BAILEY:
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·About midway -- I'm at Paragraph 41.
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Oh, I'm sorry.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Of course.· Please read Paragraph 41 to
`
`20· ·yourself.
`
`21· · · · A.· ·That may be my confusion.· I read the wrong
`
`22· ·paragraph.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·No problem.· Understood.
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Well, my understanding, first of all, is
`
`25· ·dependent upon, which given its plain and ordinary
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 25
`
`
`
`·1· ·meaning, and I believe there was an example of
`
`Page 26
`
`·2· ·contingent on or determined by, which is consistent
`
`·3· ·with what I'm using here.· Contingent upon
`
`·4· ·establishing; determined by setting.· All of these
`
`·5· ·are synonymous terms.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·But finding or identifying is a totally
`
`·7· ·different thing.· If you wanted to substitute the
`
`·8· ·words, say, "contingent on" or "determined by" where
`
`·9· ·I used the phrase "setting" or "establishing", it
`
`10· ·wouldn't change anything.· Those are synonymous.· But
`
`11· ·you couldn't substitute "finding or identifying" and
`
`12· ·have the same meaning.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·So in your opinion, does the term
`
`14· ·"defining" as used in Claim 1 mean the same thing as
`
`15· ·"defining" as used in Claim 19, for example?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·Let me take a quick look at Claim 19 and
`
`17· ·make sure that's true.
`
`18· · · · · · ·Well, in fact, Claim 19 says, code for
`
`19· ·defining, dependent upon the received card
`
`20· ·information, a memory location in a local memory
`
`21· ·external to the card.
`
`22· · · · · · ·The only real difference between this and
`
`23· ·Claim 1 is in Claim 19 they're talking about computer
`
`24· ·code to accomplish the action.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·So in your opinion, does the defining term
`
`IPR2022-00600
`Apple EX1039 Page 26
`
`
`
`Page 27
`·1· ·as used in Claim 1 have the same construction as the
`
`·2· ·defining term used in Claim 19?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·Well, I wouldn't use the phrase
`
`·4· ·construction because I don't know that these terms
`
`·5· ·have been construed.· They have their plain and
`
`·6· ·ordinary meaning.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·But if you're asking me if "defining" in
`
`·8· ·Claim 19 means essentially or substantially the same
`
`·9· ·as in Claim
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