·1
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`Page 1
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`·2· · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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`·3· · · · ·FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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`·4· MOLO DESIGN LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · vs.· · · · · · · ·) No. 1:21-CV-01578 (VEC)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· CHANEL, INC.,· · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · ·Defendant.· ·)
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·LANCE RAKE, Ph.D.
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`12· · · · · · · · · · Remote via Zoom
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`13· · · · · · · · · ·December 20, 2022
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21· ·Stenographically Reported by:
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`22· ·ANDREW R. PITTS, CSR, RPR
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`23· ·Job No. 220729
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`24
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`Page 1
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`·2· · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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`·3· · · · ·FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
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`·4· MOLO DESIGN LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · vs.· · · · · · · ·) No. 1:21-CV-01578 (VEC)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·7· CHANEL, INC.,· · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · ·Defendant.· ·)
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·LANCE RAKE, Ph.D.
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`12· · · · · · · · · · Remote via Zoom
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`13· · · · · · · · · ·December 20, 2022
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21· ·Stenographically Reported by:
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`22· ·ANDREW R. PITTS, CSR, RPR
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`23· ·Job No. 220729
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`24
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`Page 2
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · ·December 20, 2022
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`·8· · · · · · 9:03 a.m. Central Daylight Time
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`·9
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`10· · · · · · ·The videotaped deposition of LANCE
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`11· ·RAKE, Ph.D., remote via Zoom, pursuant to Notice
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`12· ·before the Rules of Civil Procedure for the
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`13· ·United States District Court for the Southern
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`14· ·District of New York, pertaining to Notice
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`15· ·before Andrew R. Pitts, Certified Shorthand
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`16· ·Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter.
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`17
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`19
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`·1
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`·2· ·A P P E A R A N C E S (Via Videoconference):
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`Page 3
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`·3
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`·4· ·ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF:
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`·5· ·BRACEWELL LLP
`· · ·MICHAEL CHIBIB, ESQ.
`·6· ·111 Congress Avenue
`· · ·Austin, Texas 78701
`·7
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`·8
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`·9
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`10· ·ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT:
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`11· ·DORSEY & WHITNEY LLP
`· · ·SHANNON BJORKLUND, ESQ.
`12· ·50 South Sixth Street
`· · ·Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`13
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`14
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`15
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`16· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`17· · · · ·JONATHAN POPHAM, Legal Videographer
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`18· · · · ·WILFRED SO (Zoom)
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`19· · · · ·ALAN BALL (Zoom)
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`20· · · · ·CONOR CIVINS (Zoom)
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`21
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`Page 4
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`·1
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·3 LANCE RAKE, Ph.D.· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·4· · · · ·BY MR. CHIBIB· · · · · · · · · · · ·6
`· · · · · ·BY MS. BJORKLUND· · · · · · · · · 182
`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·7· · NUMBER· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · PRESENTED
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`·8· · Exhibit 1001· Petition Exhibit IPR 1· · ·21
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`·9· · Exhibit 1002· '366 Patent prosecution· · 21
`· · · · · · · · · · history
`10
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`11· · Exhibit 1003· Mr. Rake's declaration· · ·22
`· · · · · · · · · · in IPR 543
`12
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`13· · Exhibit 1005· Soft housing 1 opinion· · ·34
`· · · · · · · · · · reference
`14
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`15· · Exhibit 1006· Soft housing 2 opinion· · ·34
`· · · · · · · · · · reference
`16
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`17· · Exhibit 1007· Soft housing 3 opinion· · ·34
`· · · · · · · · · · reference
`18
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`19· · Exhibit 1012· Velcro reference· · · · · ·69
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`20· · Exhibit 1013· Arens reference· · · · · · 70
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`21· · Exhibit 1008· Kaisin 1· · · · · · · · · ·75
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`22· · Exhibit 1009· Kaisin 2· · · · · · · · · ·74
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`23· · Exhibit 1010· Kaisin 3· · · · · · · · · ·74
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`24· · Exhibit 1011· Okuno reference· · · · · · 94
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`·1
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`Page 5
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`·2· · · · ·E X H I B I T S· C O N T I N U E D
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`·3· ·NUMBER· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · PRESENTED
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`·4· ·Exhibit 1028· Soft wall reference· · · ·137
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`·5· ·Exhibit 1037· MacAllen 2008 reference· ·150
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`·6· ·Exhibit 1038· Stratton reference· · · · 150
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`·7· ·Exhibit 1039· Fischer reference· · · · ·150
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`·8· ·Exhibit 1040· Tolna reference· · · · · ·150
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`·9· ·Exhibit 1041· Reisenthel reference· · · 150
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`10· ·Exhibit 1042· EnduroFence reference· · ·150
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`11· ·Exhibit 1035· Kennedy reference· · · · ·172
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`12· ·Exhibit 1033· MacAllen reference re· · ·175
`· · · · · · · · · ·U.S. patent publication
`13· · · · · · · · ·U.S. 2006/0260231
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`Page 6
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, the following
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`·3· · · · · · · · · proceedings took place remotely:)
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`·4· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, the witness was
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`·5· · · · · · · · · administered an oath.)
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · LANCE RAKE,
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`·7· ·called as a witness herein, having been first
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`·8· ·administered an oath, was examined and testified
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`·9· ·remotely via videoconferencing as follows:
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`11· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Mr. Rake.
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`13· · · · ·A.· ·Professor Rake, if you would, just I'm
`
`14· ·just used to hearing it that way.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·I'll do the best I can on that one.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Thank you.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·My name is Mike Chibib.· I work at
`
`18· ·the Bracewell law firm, and we represent Molo in
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`19· ·the IPR matters that you're involved with.
`
`20· · · · · · · Have you been deposed before?
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`21· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Many times?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I'd say somewhere around eight or
`
`24· ·ten.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`Page 7
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Oh, wow.· Okay.· Well, I'm going to
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`·3· ·go over some of the basics anyway, but it sounds
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`·4· ·like you already know the drill, but first of
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`·5· ·all, I am going to need a verbal response from
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`·6· ·you to my questions just for the court
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`·7· ·reporter's purpose and the record and things
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`·8· ·like that as opposed to a nod or shake.
`
`·9· · · · · · · You understand that you are
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`10· ·testifying today under oath, the same as if you
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`11· ·were in a court of law?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And I am going to ask you
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`14· ·a bunch of questions today, and I would like
`
`15· ·your answers to those questions.· Your counsel,
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`16· ·Ms. Bjorklund, may object to my questions.· She
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`17· ·is entitled to do that, but I'll still require
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`18· ·an answer to those questions unless she
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`19· ·specifically instructs you not to answer due to
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`20· ·attorney-client privilege.
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`21· · · · · · · Do you understand that?
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`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And if my questions are
`
`24· ·unclear, I would ask that you ask me to clarify
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`
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`Page 8
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·those questions because if you answer my
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`·3· ·question, I am going to assume that you
`
`·4· ·understood it; is that okay?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·This isn't any sort of endurance
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`·7· ·contest, so you're welcome to take breaks when
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`·8· ·you need one.· Typically we take a ten-minute
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`·9· ·break every hour or so, but if you need a break
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`10· ·anytime other than that, please just ask.· If
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`11· ·there's a question pending, however, I'll ask
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`12· ·that you answer that question pending before we
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`13· ·take the break; do you understand that?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Is there any
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`16· ·reason today, this morning, that you cannot
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`17· ·provide true and accurate testimony?
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`18· · · · ·A.· ·I don't believe so, no.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you've been proffered as an
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`20· ·expert by Chanel in four different IPR
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`21· ·proceedings relating to the subject matter of
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`22· ·the lawsuit that has been filed between the
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`23· ·parties, correct?
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`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`Page 9
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And those -- I'm going to list
`
`·3· ·this for the record, but those four IPRs are IPR
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`·4· ·2022/00543, 00544, 00545, and 00546; is that
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`·5· ·your understanding as well?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·I'm -- I'm not sure I understand --
`
`·7· ·know what the numbers are, but I know there's
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`·8· ·four matters, and I'm going to -- I'm going to
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`·9· ·assume those numbers are correct.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Great.· Yeah.
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`11· · · · · · · And you provided a sworn declaration
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`12· ·for each and every one of those four IPRs,
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`13· ·correct?
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`14· · · · ·A.· ·I did, yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·I'm going to do my best to go through
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`16· ·these IPRs one at a time so that we can keep
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`17· ·them straight and we don't have to shuffle
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`18· ·around a lot of papers.
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`19· · · · · · · I believe you received a stack of
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`20· ·exhibits, physically copies of exhibits that
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`21· ·I had mailed to you; is that true?
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`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I did, and I opened it, but
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`23· ·I -- they're in folders and stuff.· I haven't
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`24· ·really looked at it yet.
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`Page 10
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, the purpose of that was
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`·3· ·to allow you to be -- have ready access to these
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`·4· ·documents and not, you know, take up unnecessary
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`·5· ·time looking for things and -- and searching
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`·6· ·electronically, but you're willing to use any
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`·7· ·technology to view any exhibits.· If it starts
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`·8· ·to take too long though, I am going to ask you
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`·9· ·to use the physical documents and -- to expedite
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`10· ·things, okay?
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`11· · · · ·A.· ·Okay.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Otherwise, do you have
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`13· ·these exhibits electronically or how do you have
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`14· ·them?
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`15· · · · ·A.· ·Right now, I don't have them up on my
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`16· ·screen right now, but I can do that.· And I'd say
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`17· ·I did receive the physical copies.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`19· · · · ·A.· ·So I'm not sure how you wanted to do
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`20· ·that.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, we'll go through things
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`22· ·and see how it goes.
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`23· · · · · · · You're -- you're currently employed
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`24· ·as a professor of design in the School of
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·Architecture and Design at the University of
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`Page 11
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`·3· ·Kansas; is that right?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And I think you indicated in
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`·6· ·all of your declarations that you're being
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`·7· ·compensated at your standard hourly rate.· Can
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`·8· ·you please tell me what that rate is.
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`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Well, so I -- I started this project
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`10· ·about a year ago, so at the time, it was,
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`11· ·I think, $300 an hour.· I assume I am still at
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`12· ·that.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any idea how much
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`14· ·time you've billed on these four IPR
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`15· ·declarations?
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`16· · · · ·A.· ·No.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have an idea of how
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`18· ·much -- how much time you spent on any one of
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`19· ·these declarations?
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`20· · · · ·A.· ·I really don't other than it was --
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`21· ·again, it was like a year ago that I did those.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was it, like, 20 hours per
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`23· ·declaration?
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`24· · · · ·A.· ·I don't want to speculate.
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever testified in
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`Page 12
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`·3· ·court before?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· ·I have.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·In trials?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Was that patent case trials?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· ·One was a -- I've done it twice.· One
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`·9· ·was a design patent.· One was a utility patent
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`10· ·case.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· What did you do to prepare for
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`12· ·the deposition today?
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`13· · · · ·A.· ·I met with counsel, and I reread my
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`14· ·reports and -- that's it.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· ·I'm sorry?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·This, this was a -- I was just
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`17· ·finishing up my finals week, so it was -- it was
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`18· ·my last final was last Friday, so I -- I was
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`19· ·trying to read a little bit in between some of
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`20· ·that stuff.· That's -- that's how I prepared.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Did you -- you met with your lawyers
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`22· ·telephonically via Zoom type?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you know how many times you
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`Page 13
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·met with them?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· ·I met with them twice.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·For how long?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· ·I'm going to -- approximately two
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`·6· ·hours each time.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in preparing the
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`·8· ·declarations that we're going to be talking
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`·9· ·about today, what did you do to prepare those
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`10· ·declarations?· Did you -- did you actually write
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`11· ·them?
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`12· · · · ·A.· ·I did, yes.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you perform any of the
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`14· ·prior art searching for the IPRs?
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`15· · · · ·A.· ·Again, it was -- it was a long time
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`16· ·ago, but I think most of the prior art was
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`17· ·provided by counsel.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you recall any specific reference
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`19· ·that you may have located that made it way into
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`20· ·any of these IPRs?
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`21· · · · ·A.· ·I don't recall.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you review any of the
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`23· ·actual petitions that Chanel filed in these four
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`24· ·IPRs?
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`Page 14
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`·2· · · · ·A.· ·I -- I don't recall specifically, but
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`·3· ·I think I would have given them a cursory look,
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`·4· ·but I don't remember.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Has your testimony ever been
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`·6· ·challenged under the Daubert rubric?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· ·The one time I can remember, because
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`·8· ·I saw the report, was with -- was a design patent
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`·9· ·case about ceiling fans, and I remember
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`10· ·the -- there was a challenge because -- let's
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`11· ·see.· One of the things I had in my report was
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`12· ·I said that I thought the -- the other side's
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`13· ·fans infringed the patent, and the court thought
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`14· ·that that was a legal opinion that I shouldn't be
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`15· ·giving.
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`16· · · · · · · And I think the other part of that
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`17· ·was -- had to do with lost -- lost profits.
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`18· ·I gave an opinion that was based on kind of
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`19· ·simple arithmetic, but again I guess I'm -- I'm
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`20· ·not an accountant, so they didn't want me to
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`21· ·testify about that, so those two issues, but all
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`22· ·the design-related parts of it are -- I was free
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`23· ·to provide that testimony.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So if I'm -- let me make sure
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·I understand what you just said.
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`·3· · · · · · · You believe that your testimony was
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`·4· ·challenged under Daubert in two separate cases;
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`·5· ·one a design patent case, and one a utility
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`Page 15
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`·6· ·patent case?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· ·No.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was your testimony ever
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`·9· ·challenged under the Daubert rubric in any case?
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`10· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I was trying to describe the one
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`11· ·design patent case that I --
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`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`13· · · · ·A.· ·I was challenged on --
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`14· · · · ·Q.· ·So one -- one case?
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`15· · · · ·A.· ·That's all that I'm familiar with.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`17· · · · ·A.· ·If there were others, that's all that
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`18· ·I'm familiar with.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·And that was the ceiling fan case?
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`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Was that the Delta T, LLC Big
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`22· ·Ass Fan Company versus Dan's Fan City case?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you said that your
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·testimony was challenged.· Was it actually
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`·3· ·stricken?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I think in those two instances,
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`Page 16
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`·5· ·I think it was, yes.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
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`·7· · · · ·A.· ·But I can't remember that
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`·8· ·specifically.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall the court saying
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`10· ·that, "Mr. Rake has failed to include any
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`11· ·qualifications in his report related to his
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`12· ·ability to determine a corporation's lost
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`13· ·profits"?
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`14· · · · ·A.· ·Something to that effect, yes.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· ·"And accordingly the court finds that
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`16· ·Rake is not minimally qualified to testify as to
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`17· ·Delta T's recorded lost profits, and his
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`18· ·opinions and testimony were excluded to that
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`19· ·extent"?
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`20· · · · ·A.· ·To the extent of lost profits --
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`21· ·profits, that was my understanding, yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you offered an opinion
`
`23· ·beyond your expertise in the Big Ass Fan case;
`
`24· ·is that accurate?
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
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`Page 17
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`·2· · · · ·A.· ·That -- that's what the court thought
`
`·3· ·that -- on that particular case.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any reason to disagree
`
`·5· ·with the court?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Well, I would -- at the time that
`
`·7· ·I was writing it, I didn't think it was -- you
`
`·8· ·know, like I say, it was -- it was a -- to me,
`
`·9· ·kind of a basic arithmetic issue, so I -- I
`
`10· ·thought I could do that, but -- but I understand
`
`11· ·that, what the court's opinion was.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·And the opinion wasn't appealed on
`
`13· ·that ground; was it?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·I don't believe so.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Isn't it true, though, that
`
`16· ·your testimony was stricken under the Daubert
`
`17· ·rubric in another case?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I'm not aware of that.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you work on a case called
`
`20· ·Pavo Solutions LLC versus Kingston Technology
`
`21· ·Company?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any recollection
`
`24· ·about your testimony in that case?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`Page 18
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· ·No, except that I testified at trial.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So I'm going to read to you
`
`·4· ·from an opinion in this case.
`
`·5· · · · · · · It says, "Pavo seeks to exclude the
`
`·6· ·testimony and expert report of Rake insofar as
`
`·7· ·they discuss whether the prior art in the case
`
`·8· ·meets the electrically connected and operatively
`
`·9· ·connected claim limitations.
`
`10· · · · · · · "Specifically, Pavo contends that
`
`11· ·Rake does not qualify as an expert with respect
`
`12· ·to the 'connected' limitations.· When deposed by
`
`13· ·Pavo, Rake stated he is not an electrical
`
`14· ·engineer, not an expert in electrical
`
`15· ·connections, and that electrical connections
`
`16· ·were not his area of expertise."
`
`17· · · · · · · Do you recall that?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I'm -- not specifically, but I --
`
`19· ·I know what the -- well, know what the issue was,
`
`20· ·yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the court went on to say,
`
`22· ·"Therefore Rake lacks the proper expertise to
`
`23· ·opine on whether the prior art meets the
`
`24· ·electrically connected and operatively connected
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·claim limitations," correct?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·I -- I don't remember the specifics of
`
`·4· ·that wording.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did the court also say
`
`·6· ·that instead of using your own expertise, you
`
`·7· ·relied on your client's interpretation of those
`
`·8· ·terms?
`
`·9· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection.· Lacks
`
`10· ·foundation.
`
`11· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, I don't -- I don't remember.
`
`13· ·I didn't see it.
`
`14· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So the court "granted Pavo's
`
`16· ·motion to exclude the portions of Rake's opinion
`
`17· ·and testimony as to whether the prior art meets
`
`18· ·the connected limitations."· That's what this
`
`19· ·opinion says.
`
`20· · · · · · · Do you recall that your testimony
`
`21· ·regarding that particular issue was excluded?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·I don't -- I don't recall that, but it
`
`23· ·must have been.· I still testified at that -- at
`
`24· ·trial in that case, so if there were parts of it
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·I wasn't supposed to testify about, I don't
`
`·3· ·remember that.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So other than that Big Ass Fan
`
`·5· ·case and the Kingston Technology case, has your
`
`·6· ·testimony been excluded by any other court or
`
`·7· ·administrative proceeding?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Not that I'm aware of.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· I'd like to jump in now
`
`10· ·and talk about some of these IPRs in your
`
`11· ·declarations.
`
`12· · · · · · · First, I'd like to discuss IPR
`
`13· ·2022/00543, and this is the one that relates to
`
`14· ·U.S. patent 7,866,366.· Can you please gather up
`
`15· ·what you need to talk about this, including your
`
`16· ·declaration.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I can get that up on my screen.
`
`18· ·So we'll try to make that work, and then if
`
`19· ·I need --
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· ·-- the hard copy, we'll go to that.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Great.· So I think that there's a
`
`23· ·formal process through this Zoom that I'm
`
`24· ·supposed to introduce exhibits, and so I'm going
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`Page 21
`
`·2· ·to try to do that.· I don't know if it matters
`
`·3· ·or not.· I'm going to use the same exhibit
`
`·4· ·numbers that were used in the IPR proceedings,
`
`·5· ·and I'll try to keep them clear of what exhibit
`
`·6· ·we're talking about.
`
`·7· · · · · · · But the patent in this case,
`
`·8· ·7,866,366 is Exhibit IPR 1 to the petition, and
`
`·9· ·I believe I've posted that in the chat, which is
`
`10· ·the way that we are to do exhibits.· So you're
`
`11· ·welcome to look at it there, but I want to make
`
`12· ·sure that that's in the record, Exhibit 1001.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1001 was
`
`14· · · · · · · · · presented.)
`
`15· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·And then similarly, Mr. Rake's --
`
`17· ·well, I'm sorry, similarly, the patent
`
`18· ·prosecution history for the '366 Patent is
`
`19· ·Exhibit 1002, and I'm going to publish that into
`
`20· ·the chat as well, and I would like that entered
`
`21· ·in the record.
`
`22· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1002 was
`
`23· · · · · · · · · presented.)
`
`24
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·And Exhibit 1003 is Mr. Rake's
`
`·4· ·declaration in this particular IPR 543, and I'm
`
`·5· ·going to introduce that into the record as well.
`
`·6· · · · · · · So you should be able to see those in
`
`·7· ·the chat if you need them, otherwise you are
`
`·8· ·certainly welcome to use the hard copies of the
`
`·9· ·electronic copies.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1003 was
`
`11· · · · · · · · · presented.)
`
`12· · · · · ·MR. CHIBIB:· Ms. Bjorklund, are you able
`
`13· ·to see everything?
`
`14· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· I see 1002 and 1003, but
`
`15· ·I don't see 1001.
`
`16· · · · · ·MR. CHIBIB:· Okay.· I'll repost it.
`
`17· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let's talk about the '366
`
`19· ·Patent, Mr. Rake.· It's directed to an article
`
`20· ·of furniture having a core formed from a
`
`21· ·plurality of laminar panels of a flexible and
`
`22· ·flaccid material.
`
`23· · · · · · · Is that your understanding?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you -- you've read this
`
`Page 23
`
`·3· ·'366 Patent and studied it?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·And you've read and analyzed the
`
`·6· ·prosecution history, Exhibit 1002, for the '366
`
`·7· ·Patent?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· Again, like when I wrote this,
`
`·9· ·it was almost a year ago, so, well, my memory of
`
`10· ·it might not be super sharp, but I did read it.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But you did nothing to --
`
`12· ·I mean, you did understand that your deposition
`
`13· ·is today, correct?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· And you provided a
`
`16· ·sworn declaration in this IPR 543, and that is
`
`17· ·Exhibit 1003, correct?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· In your declaration,
`
`20· ·Exhibit 1003, in paragraph 36, you key -- you
`
`21· ·state that the '366 Patent focuses on
`
`22· ·improvements over prior art furniture items that
`
`23· ·are rigid or have rigid frames or are formed
`
`24· ·from rigid interconnected panels are relatively
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·large, heavy, and cumbersome and therefore
`
`·3· ·difficult to set up, take down, store, and
`
`·4· ·transport," correct?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, that's -- that's correct.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· ·And you cite to the patent
`
`·7· ·specification at column 1, lines 25 through 28,
`
`·8· ·correct?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And is that still your
`
`11· ·understanding today of what the '366 Patent
`
`12· ·covers?
`
`13· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection.· Misstates the
`
`14· ·document.
`
`15· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I'm not quite sure I get the question.
`
`17· ·Could you -- could you repeat that or rephrase
`
`18· ·that?
`
`19· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· Yeah.· I just read that
`
`21· ·statement from your paragraph 36 of your
`
`22· ·declaration.· Do you stand by that statement
`
`23· ·today?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes -- well, yes, that was from the
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·specification and the patent, so it was my
`
`·3· ·understanding, yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· There's only one independent
`
`·5· ·claim in this '366 Patent, claim 1; is that
`
`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· In one of your sections
`
`·9· ·in your declaration starting at paragraphs 39,
`
`10· ·you have a section titled Salient Points From
`
`11· ·the Prosecution History; do you see that?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so this is where
`
`14· ·you -- you identify a few items from the
`
`15· ·prosecution history that are relevant, correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· In paragraph 40 of your
`
`18· ·declaration, you discuss a rejection that was
`
`19· ·made by the examiner in light of the Benedict
`
`20· ·prior art that was cited by the examiner; is
`
`21· ·that right?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you cite language that
`
`24· ·says, and I'll quote, "Clearly, Benedict does
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·not provide plurality of fasteners on each of
`
`·3· ·the supports; moreover, Benedict does not
`
`·4· ·disclose supports foldable into a tubular
`
`·5· ·configuration.· There is no disclosure in
`
`·6· ·Benedict of the flexibility necessary to attain
`
`·7· ·this, and in fact it is clear from the
`
`·8· ·description in figure 3 of Benedict that the end
`
`·9· ·18 does not flex and does not adapt a tubular
`
`10· ·configuration."
`
`11· · · · · · · Is that right?
`
`12· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection to form.
`
`13· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·That's -- yes, that's the quote, yes.
`
`15· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And then your understanding of
`
`17· ·the file history is that the applicant, in light
`
`18· ·of this rejection -- I'm sorry, that the
`
`19· ·applicant amended what was the claim, the
`
`20· ·independent claim in the application in light of
`
`21· ·this argument that was made, correct?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· ·And -- and the -- that amendment and
`
`24· ·argument was successful, and the claim was
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·allowed, correct?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·That's my recollection, yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So you agree that
`
`·5· ·the Benedict reference that the applicant was
`
`·6· ·arguing over did not have support ends that were
`
`·7· ·flexible, and they weren't flexible enough to
`
`·8· ·treat the tubular configuration, correct?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·I -- I don't have that Benedict
`
`10· ·reference in front of me.· I can't remember the
`
`11· ·specifics of it, but yeah.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· But the examiner --
`
`13· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· ·-- agreed with the applicant,
`
`15· ·correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Correct.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So this tubular configuration
`
`18· ·that the applicant is talking about in this file
`
`19· ·history, that's illustrated in the figure
`
`20· ·in -- in a figure in the '366 Patent, right?
`
`21· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection.· Vague.
`
`22· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· It's actually figure 5B, if
`
`·4· ·you want to look at it, but you can confirm that
`
`Page 28
`
`·5· ·for me.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And so in light of the
`
`·8· ·amendment that the applicant made to the claims,
`
`·9· ·right, the -- you agree with me that the '366
`
`10· ·Patent claims, they do not cover a device where
`
`11· ·the end supports are not flexible enough to make
`
`12· ·the tubular configuration, correct?
`
`13· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection.· Calls for a
`
`14· ·legal conclusion.
`
`15· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, and please repeat that.
`
`17· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· And there may be a double
`
`19· ·negative in there, but I'll do my best.
`
`20· · · · · · · You agree with me that because of the
`
`21· ·amendment that the applicant made in the claims,
`
`22· ·that these claims, they don't cover a device
`
`23· ·that is -- that has -- they do not cover a
`
`24· ·device whose end supports are not flexible
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·enough to make the tubular configuration?
`
`·3· · · · · ·MS. BJORKLUND:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah, it's just on my understanding of
`
`·6· ·it.· I'm not sure I understand the --
`
`·7· ·BY MR. CHIBIB:
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You understand how -- how
`
`·9· ·prosecution works in a -- in a patent?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·I'm a -- I'm a design professor.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Do you understand -- I mean,
`
`12· ·do you understand how the patent prosecution
`
`13· ·process works?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· ·From the standpoint of a designer,
`
`15· ·I -- I understand as much as I can.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·I -- I'm unsure that you -- provided
`
`17· ·an answer --
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I'm --
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, hold on, hold on.· I'm not sure
`
`20· ·that you provided an answer for me.
`
`21· · · · · · · Do you understand how the patent
`
`22· ·prosecution process works?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·In very general terms, I think I do.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Well, do you understand how an
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·amendment to a claim affects the claim's
`
`·3· ·coverage?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· ·I just -- I just -- I don't know.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· You don't understand
`
`·6· ·how -- how an amendment to a claim affects the
`
`·7· ·claim's coverage?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· ·I don't understand the question.· I'm
`
`·9· ·sorry.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I think you understand the
`
`11· ·question, but I'll ask it again.
`
`12· · · · · · · Do you understand how an amendment to
`
`13· ·a claim during patent prosecution affects that
`
`14· ·claim's scope when it ultimately issues in a
`
`15· ·patent?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· ·I -- I just -- I really don't --
`
`17· ·I am -- I usually, you know, rely on counsel to
`
`18· ·help as far as what legal issues are involved
`
`19· ·when I'm trying to draft my reports, so I do
`
`20· ·that, but I -- I'm not -- I'm definitely not a
`
`21· ·legal scholar.· I'm sorry.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any patents yourself?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· ·I do, yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· ·Did you participate in the drafting
`
`
`
`Page 31
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·of those patents?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· ·Not very much.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· ·How many patents do you have?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· ·I don't know that -- which -- I think
`
`·6· ·there's maybe 10 or 11.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you participate in the
`
`·8· ·prosecution of those patents at all?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· ·I would -- I would look the -- I would
`
`10· ·design the products, and then I would -- you
`
`11· ·know, the -- the patents were drawn up outside,
`
`12· ·and I would -- I would typically, of course,
`
`13· ·review them, but I didn't -- I didn't participate
`
`14· ·any more than that.· I didn't draft the language.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me move on.
`
`16· · · · · · · Back to the '366 Patent, you agree
`
`17· ·that the materials that are used to form the
`
`18· ·flexible core of the '366 Patent, those can
`
`19· ·vary, correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· ·Yeah -- yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· ·And one embodiment of the patent
`
`22· ·suggests a light-weight paper can be used,
`
`23· ·right?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`
`
`Page 32
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· ·But what's important is that the
`
`·3· ·structure has certain characteristics not the
`
`·4· ·specific material that's used to provide those
`
`·5· ·characteristics, right?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· ·I -- I think I understand that, yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· ·And in the instance of the -- this
`
`·8· ·'366 Patent, it's your opinion that "materials
`
`·9· ·have to be flexible enough to be bent, folded,
`
`10· ·or creased, and rigid enough to support objects
`
`11· ·of various sizes and weights when in use;
`
`12· ·additionally, in order for a specific design to
`
`13· ·be expanded, contracted, and otherwise
`
`14· ·manipulated into its desired form, a seem or
`
`15· ·edge must be able folded and unfolded over many
`
`16· ·cycles without work hardening or otherwise
`
`17· ·failing"; is that accurate?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· ·I believe so, yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· There are multiple
`
`20· ·grounds that are alleged in the petition that
`
`21· ·invalidates claims of the '366 Patent.· So I'm
`
`22· ·going to walk through some of those now.
`
`23· · · · · · · Ground number 1, you state, "Ground
`
`24· ·number 1 is the challenged claims are obvious --
`
`
`
`Page 33
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·Lance Rake, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·are obvious over soft housing 1 alone and in
`
`·3· ·view of soft housing 2, soft housing 3,
`
`·4· ·Arens" -- that's A-R-E-N-S -- "and/or Velcro."
`
`·5· · · · · · · Is that your understanding of what
`
`·6· ·ground 1 is?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· What paragraph is that, please?
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· ·Yeah.· You -- it's at about paragraph
`
`·9· ·1.01 of your declaration.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Independent claim 1 of
`
`12· ·the '366 Patent, you break this claim up in your
`
`13· ·analysis into a preamble and elements A, B, and
`
`14· ·C, correct?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to try to use that
`
`17· ·nomenclature as best I can so that we're
`
`18· ·speaking the same language.
`
`19· · · · · · · Okay.· So the first set of references
`
`20· ·that you rely upon for this opinion are the soft
`
`21· ·housing references; is that righ
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