UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`GOOGLE LLC
`
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`ECOFACTOR, INC. (record)
`
`Patent Owner
`
`IPR No. 2021/01218
`
`Patent No. 8,019,567
`
` __________________________________________________
`
`VIRTUAL VIDEOCONFERENCE VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`DEPOSITION OF RAJENDRA SHAH
`
`Wednesday, April 6, 2022
`
`Remotely Testifying from Atlanta, Georgia
`
` Reported By:
`
` Hanna Kim, CLR, CSR No. 13083
`
` Job No. 5171213
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 1
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`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`GOOGLE LLC
`
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`ECOFACTOR, INC. (record)
`
`Patent Owner
`
`IPR No. 2021/01218
`
`Patent No. 8,019,567
`
` __________________________________________________
`
`VIRTUAL VIDEOCONFERENCE VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`DEPOSITION OF RAJENDRA SHAH
`
`Wednesday, April 6, 2022
`
`Remotely Testifying from Atlanta, Georgia
`
` Reported By:
`
` Hanna Kim, CLR, CSR No. 13083
`
` Job No. 5171213
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 1
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`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` GOOGLE LLC
`
` Petitioner
`
` v.
`
` ECOFACTOR, INC. (record)
`
` Patent Owner
`
` IPR No. 2021/01218
`
` Patent No. 8,019,567
`
` __________________________________________________
`
` Virtual videoconference video-recorded
`
` deposition of RAJENDRA SHAH, taken on
`
` behalf of Patent Owner, on Wednesday,
`
` April 6, 2022, remotely testifying from
`
` Atlanta, Georgia, before Hanna Kim, CLR,
`
` Certified Shorthand Reporter, No. 13083.
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 2
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`
`
` REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
`
` For Patent Owner EcoFactor, Incorporated:
`
` RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`
` BY: JONATHAN LINK, ESQ.
`
` 12424 Wilshire Blvd.
`
` Los Angeles, California 90025
`
` 310.826.7474
`
` jlink@raklaw.com
`
` For Petitioner, Google LLC:
`
` SMITH BALUCH LLP
`
` BY: ELIZABETH A. LAUGHTON, ESQ.
`
` 1100 Alma Street, Suite 109
`
` Menlo Park, California 94025
`
` 703.585.8839
`
` laughton@smithbaluch.com
`
` Also Present:
`
` CHESTER DAY, Google LLC
`
` DAVID HALVORSON, Videographer
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 3
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`
`
` INDEX OF EXAMINATION
`
` WITNESS: RAJENDRA SHAH
`
` EXAMINATION PAGE
`
` BY MR. LINK: 7, 71
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` BY MS. LAUGHTON: 69
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 4
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`
`
` INDEX OF EXHIBITS
`
`SHAH DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
`
`Exhibit 1002 Declaration of Rajendra Shah; 93 11
`
` pages
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`Exhibit 1004 Copy of U.S. Patent Number 15
`
` 5,729,474; 28 pages
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`Exhibit 1008 Copy of U.S. Patent Number 15
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` 5,640,153
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`Exhibit 1007 Copy of United States Patent 31
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` Application Publication US 2005/
`
` 0159846 Al; 7 pages
`
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`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` Remotely Testifying from Atlanta, Georgia
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` Wednesday, April 6, 2022; 12:01 p.m.
`
` --o0o--
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. Good afternoon.
`
` We are on the record at 12:01 p.m. on April 6th, 12:01:41
`
` 2022.
`
` This is Media Unit 1 in the video-recorded
`
` deposition of Rajendra Shah, in the matter of
`
` Google LLC, the Petitioner, versus EcoFactor
`
` Incorporated, the Patent Owner. 12:01:59
`
` It's filed in the U.S. Patent and
`
` Trademark Office with an IPR Number 2021-01218 for
`
` Patent 8,019,567.
`
` This deposition is being held virtually.
`
` My name is Dave Halvorson. I'm the 12:02:25
`
` videographer here from Veritext.
`
` And I'm here with the court reporter,
`
` Hanna Kim, also from Veritext.
`
` Counsel, can you please all identify
`
` themselves so the witness can be sworn in. 12:02:35
`
` MR. LINK: Certainly.
`
` Yeah, Jonathan Link with the law firm of
`
` Russ August & Kabat on behalf of Patent Owner
`
` EcoFactor, Incorporated.
`
` MS. LAUGHTON: And this is Elizabeth 12:02:47
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` Laughton of Smith Baluch LLP on behalf of
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` Petitioner, Google LLC.
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` THE WITNESS: And I am Rajendra Shaw --
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Hang on. Hang on.
`
` It's okay. She's going to swear you in. 12:02:59
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` THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Go ahead, Hanna.
`
` Sorry. Just one moment. It's good.
`
` RAJENDRA SHAH,
`
` having been duly administered an oath over
`
` videoconference as stipulated by all counsel, was
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` examined and testified as follows:
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please proceed. 12:03:24
`
` MR. LINK: Thank you.
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Shah. How are you?
`
` A. I'm fine. How are you? 12:03:31
`
` Q. Good.
`
` I guess technically it's afternoon for
`
` you.
`
` A. Yes, it is.
`
` Q. Okay. Just for the record here, I have 12:03:37
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`IPR2022-00538
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` asked this of you before previously, but how many
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` times have you been deposed?
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` A. I believe as an expert witness this will
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` be the third time.
`
` Q. The third time, okay. 12:03:49
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` And have those depositions been all
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` remotely, like this deposition?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Just a reminder, since we're --
`
` we're making a written record here for the court 12:04:04
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` reporter, just to be mindful that we allow the
`
` other to complete their question or answer before
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` talking.
`
` If -- if I ask any question that you find
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` unclear, would you agree to let me know? And we 12:04:16
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` can figure how to make it -- or if it's unclear, I
`
` can reask to clarify?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Great.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. -- Mr. Link, we -- 12:04:29
`
` MR. LINK: Yes.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: -- we have a cell phone
`
` unidentified. It could be Mr. Day.
`
` Can we take a moment to admit and see if
`
` this is him? 12:04:36
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` MR. LINK: Sure.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. One minute,
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` please.
`
` Sorry about that.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: We just admitted 12:04:50
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` somebody. Could you please identify yourself,
`
` please.
`
` MR. DAY: Yes. Chester Day an attorney at
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` Google LLC.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. And I will 12:05:02
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` rename it -- go -- go -- proceed, Mr. Link.
`
` I'll -- I'll go ahead and rename the...
`
` MR. LINK: Okay. Thank you.
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. And, Mr. Shah, if you need a break, you 12:05:07
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` know, at any time, just let me know, and we'll
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` work to -- to facilitate that.
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` But just make sure that you answer any
`
` pending questions before we go on that break.
`
` Okay? 12:05:18
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Is there any reason you can't give
`
` truthful testimony today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any notes in front of 12:05:24
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` A. What I have, just so you know, I have
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` copies of my declaration and some of the patents.
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` And then I have one sheet, which just
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` lists two of the claims on the patent, and also 12:05:40
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` they're in front of me and -- with pages in the
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` declaration that they're, you know, described
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` with. So it's a reference page.
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` Q. Okay. Could you show me that sheet --
`
` A. Yes. 12:05:54
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` Q. -- just so that I under- --
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` A. Let's see. So basically I have Claim 1
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` and then Claim 8.
`
` Q. Okay.
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` A. And those are just the actual elements in 12:06:06
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` the claim as listed in the declaration.
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` And then I also have, if you can notice,
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` page numbers on the side. So that's the page
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` numbers in my declaration that those claims are
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` first -- 12:06:21
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- mentioned.
`
` Q. Okay. Then -- and you don't have any
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` other notes --
`
` A. No. 12:06:28
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`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` Q. -- in front of you?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Okay. All right.
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` What did you do to prepare for your
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` deposition today? 12:06:44
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` A. I looked over my declaration in as much
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` detail as I could, along with all the references,
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` as many as I could, and I discussed some of these
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` items with my counsel.
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` Q. Okay. About how long did you take to 12:07:06
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` prepare for your deposition?
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` A. It's been since, I guess, the first of
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` April, so several days' worth of work. I -- I
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` don't know. I have not yet counted all my hours
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` yet. But it's at least five or six days -- five 12:07:30
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` days.
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` Q. All right.
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` Did you write -- well, actually, let's --
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` let's take a look.
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` If you can turn to your declaration and -- 12:07:39
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` in the Exhibit Share, it's there, and it's -- it's
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` marked as Exhibit 1002 in this IPR proceeding for
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` the '567 patent.
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` (Shah Deposition Exhibit 1002 was marked
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` electronically.) 12:07:51
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`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` And, actually, that's -- if I refer to it
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` as the "'567 patent," you'll understand that that's
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` Patent Number 8,019,567?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Great. 12:08:02
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` And if I, in turn, refer to this as the
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` "'1218 IPR," you'll understand that is the present
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` IPR proceeding for IPR 2021-01218?
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` A. Okay. I -- did you say "'1218"?
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` Q. Yes. 12:08:19
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` A. Okay. I'll -- I'll remember that.
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` Q. Okay. I just want to make sure that
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` we're -- as we're talking, that we're not talking
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` past each other.
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` So looking at your declaration, which is 12:08:28
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` Exhibit 1002 in the '1218 IPR here, did you write
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` the entire declaration?
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` A. I -- counsel, with my inputs, and then --
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` wrote most of it. We went through it and reviewed
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` it, and we made some changes based on my inputs 12:08:54
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` again.
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` So I was involved quite a bit in the
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` actual putting together the final version of this
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` document.
`
` Q. Okay. Would it be accurate to say that -- 12:09:07
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` that you discussed it with counsel, they wrote the
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` first draft, and then you had discussions with
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` counsel to make changes or to refine it to come to
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` the final draft that you submitted?
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` A. I think that -- 12:09:24
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: -- that reflects what
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` happened.
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` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Okay. Approximately how long did that 12:09:29
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` process take?
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` A. This -- this was last year. Typically it
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` takes maybe a -- a period of a couple of weeks.
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` Sometimes a little more or less. I -- I don't
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` know. And every case is a little different. 12:09:51
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` Q. Sure.
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` A. But something of that order. And several
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` meetings, phone -- in this case we all had remote
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` meetings discussing the declaration.
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` Q. Okay. Did you identify the prior art that 12:10:04
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` was cited in your declaration?
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me.
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` THE WITNESS: Go ahead.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Was there an
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` objection? I didn't hear. 12:10:22
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Yes. Just objection.
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` Form.
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` THE WITNESS: Can I answer?
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Yes, you may. Please go
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` ahead. 12:10:30
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` THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
` In -- so I think I may have had some
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` discussions about it. I wasn't the one to identify
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` all these prior art myself. I may have had some
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` inputs back and forth. 12:10:43
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` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Okay. I would like to have you turn to
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` page 8 in your declaration, which is also
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` paragraph 17. Let me know when you get there,
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` please. 12:11:12
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Sure.
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` A. And I see --
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` Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
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` A. No. Go ahead. I'm there. 12:11:14
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` Q. You're there? Okay. Great.
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` This is your list of materials reviewed;
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` right?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. I want to ask you about a couple of 12:11:26
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` those. So you list as Exhibit Number 1004, U.S.
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` Patent Number 5,729,474, and you have -- well, you
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` refer to it as the "Hildebrand" patent; right?
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` A. Yes.
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` (Shah Deposition Exhibit 1004 was marked 12:11:52
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` electronically.)
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` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Okay. And would it be fair to say that's
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` the main reference that you rely upon in coming to
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` your opinions in this declaration? Is that 12:11:57
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` correct?
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` A. As part of, I guess, three of the grounds,
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` it's -- it's the main reference.
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. Then there's other grounds in which it's 12:12:08
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` not.
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` Q. Okay. And I believe those other grounds
`
` are for the -- the Spalink reference, which is
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` Exhibit Number 1008; is that correct?
`
` A. That's correct. 12:12:20
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` (Shah Deposition Exhibit 1008 was marked
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` electronically.)
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Okay. Now, you also provide or list
`
` Exhibit Number 1005, which is U.S. Patent Number 12:12:27
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` 5,640,153, which you refer to as "Hildebrand
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` '153."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. You don't rely on the Hildebrand 12:12:42
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` '153 patent for any of your opinions; is that
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` correct?
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes. In general, the -- the
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` primary Hildebrand patent -- main patent, which- -- 12:12:55
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` whichever way you want to call it, is the first
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` one -- or the Exhibit 1004.
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` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Okay. You don't offer any opinions as to
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` Exhibit 1005 anywhere in your declaration; 12:13:06
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` correct?
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` A. I don't believe so.
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` (Previously marked Deposition Exhibit 1005
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` was referenced.)
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` BY MR. LINK: 12:13:15
`
` Q. Okay. And for Exhibit Number 1006, which
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` is U.S. Patent Number 5,539,633, you refer to that
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` as the "Hildebrand '633" patent; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Previously marked Deposition Exhibit 1006 12:13:28
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`Exhibit 2010
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` was referenced.)
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` BY MR. LINK:
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` Q. Okay. And you don't offer any opinions as
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` to Exhibit 1006 in your declaration; correct?
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` A. Correct. 12:13:35
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` Q. Okay. Why did you consider those
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` references if you're not using them or offering
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` any opinions on them in your declaration?
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` A. I believe they were my opinion, and I -- I
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` don't know for sure when we did this. But there 12:13:51
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` were other Hildebrand-related patents, and we had
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` them in our list. But it turned out that, you
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` know, the grounds that we had, we were -- 1004 was
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` sufficient.
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` Q. Okay. Turning to this same listing, but 12:14:08
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` going over to the next page in your declaration,
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` you have listed for Exhibit 1010, which you
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` indicate here as a "Public Copy of the Initial
`
` Determination in Smart HVAC Systems, and
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` Components Thereof 337-TA-1185" [verbatim] in the 12:14:36
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` ITC.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Previously marked Deposition Exhibit 1010
`
` was referenced.) 12:14:40
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`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
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` BY MR. LINK:
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` Q. Okay. You don't offer any opinions in
`
` your declaration for the '1218 IPR with respect to
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` this Exhibit 1010, do you?
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Objection. Form. 12:14:55
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` THE WITNESS: I believe this Exhibit 1010
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` is being referenced in the declaration in one area.
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` And I'll have to remind myself exactly where it
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` was, but it is being referred to.
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` BY MR. LINK: 12:15:12
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` I will represent to you I did a -- a
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` search on the PDF for this declaration, and I
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` typed in "1185" and hit search. And the only
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` place that this was found is in this reference 12:15:31
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` here on page 9.
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` So based on that, can you tell me where
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` else you would have offered an opinion on this
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` Exhibit 10- -- 1010?
`
` A. Hmm. I'll have to review the document. 12:15:50
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` I -- I -- you know, it's a long document. I don't
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` remember exactly which page or line. But I
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` believe -- let me think. I probably took it in my
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` notes, but I don't have my notes in front of me
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` either -- 12:16:13
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. -- so...
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` Do you want me to look up some things?
`
` Q. Well, let me -- let me ask then this here.
`
` Let me have you turn to page 34 in your 12:16:20
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` declaration.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. So I took a different tact at this, and I
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` typed in "1010" and hit search. And at the very
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` end of paragraph 75 [sic], I see a reference to 12:16:37
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` that where is says "1010."
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` Do you see that? It's at page 34 in your
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` declaration, the end of paragraph 73.
`
` A. Okay. I'm on -- yes. So it says
`
` "Exhibit 1010, page 475" [as read], yes. 12:17:04
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` Q. Okay. And you cite that to support the
`
` sentence that says "Thus, the HVAC control system
`
` would obviously receive the status of the HVAC
`
` system."
`
` Do you see that? 12:17:19
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And you just cite to page 475 of
`
` Exhibit 1010; right?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Okay. What is it in Exhibit 1010 that 12:17:31
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` supports this sentence?
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` A. I -- I believe the opinion was expressed
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` that one would have to read the exact verbiage in
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` that page 475, but -- that supported this
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` definition of what the status might be considered 12:18:05
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` to be in the context of, I believe, a similar
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` patent.
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` Q. Okay. Did you analyze the patent that is
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` discussed in Exhibit 1010 --
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Objection -- 12:18:24
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. -- and compare it --
`
` MS. LAUGHTON: Oh, sorry.
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. -- to the '567 patent that's at iss- -- at 12:18:29
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` issue in this IPR proceeding?
`
` MS. LAUGHTON: Objection. Form.
`
` Sorry.
`
` THE WITNESS: I believe -- and, again, I
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` am not prepared for other patents, but I believe it 12:18:40
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` might have been one of the similar patents that
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` we've been reviewing, so I probably did.
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` But I -- I'll have to go back and look at
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` that page and -- and the specific patent number and
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` then look up where -- you know, where -- whether it 12:18:56
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` was part of what I have examined.
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` BY MR. LINK:
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. I believe I did, but I'm not sure.
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` BY MR. LINK: 12:19:05
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` Q. Is there any place here in your
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` declaration where you provide an analysis that
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` compares the patent that was at issue at page 475
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` in Exhibit 1010 and the '567 patent that's part of
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` this IPR proceeding? 12:19:20
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` A. As far as I know, no. I don't believe so.
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` Q. Okay. I would like to go back to
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` paragraph 20 of your declaration, which is at page
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` 9.
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` If you could let me know when you get 12:19:57
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` there.
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` A. Okay. I'm there.
`
` Q. Okay. And in the second sentence you've
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` written, "I understand that 'inherent' disclosure
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` means that the claim element, although not 12:20:15
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` expressly described by the prior art reference,
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` must necessarily be present based on the
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` disclosure."
`
` Do you see that sentence?
`
` A. Yes. 12:20:25
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` Q. What do you mean by "necessarily be
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` present"?
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` A. It means that it's not -- I mean, it has
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` to be present in order to be, you know, a -- a --
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` it basically has to be present to meet that 12:20:45
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` requirement.
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` Q. Okay. So if some -- if a -- if a
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` particular element was more likely than not
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` present in a disclosure, would that be an inherent
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` disclosure? 12:21:05
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` A. No. This is "necessarily be present." So
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` it's -- it's not expressly the same words, but
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` it's necessary, you know, to be exactly the same
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` meaning --
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` Q. Okay. 12:21:22
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` A. -- for whatever it was being described in
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` the claim element.
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` Q. Okay. In the next sentence you say, "I
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` understand that a mere probability that the
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` element is present is not sufficient to qualify as 12:21:31
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` 'inherent disclosure.'"
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What do you mean by "mere probability"?
`
` A. It's just kind of, you know, perhaps it 12:21:42
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` will be there or not. There's a good chance it
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` will be there. Things like that. A probability
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` check.
`
` Q. I'd like to turn now to paragraph 32 in
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` your report. And, actually, let's start with 12:22:23
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` Section VI, which is at page 13.
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` This is where you give your opinions on
`
` the "LEVEL OF ORDINARY SKILL IN THE ART"; correct?
`
` A. Okay. I'm on page 13.
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` Yes. 12:22:42
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. All right. Okay.
`
` And in paragraph 32, you give the opinion
`
` that the level of ordinary skill in the art 12:22:52
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` "encompassed a person with at least a (1)
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` Bachelor's degree in engineering, computer
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` science, or a comparable field of study, and (2)
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` at least five years of," and then you have a -- a
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` small "(i) professional experience in building 12:23:09
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` energy management and controls or," two lowercase
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` iis, "relevant industry experience."
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` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And -- and just to be clear, this 12:23:23
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` is your opinion as to level of ordinary skill in
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` the art with respect to the '567 patent; right?
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` A. Right.
`
` Q. Okay. And what is the time frame for this
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` person of ordinary skill in the art? 12:23:38
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` A. That will be in the relevant time frame,
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` which is prior to the '567 patent, which I believe
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` is 2007, but we can look up there the exact month
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` and date.
`
` Q. All right. 12:24:10
`
` The -- the -- the '567 patent claims
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` priority to a provisional application that was
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` filed on September 17th, 2007.
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` So just prior to that is the time frame
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` you're looking at for the level of ordinary skill 12:24:27
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` in the art.
`
` Is that accurate?
`
` A. That's accurate.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` You use the term here in your definition 12:24:31
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` in paragraph 32 of -- or I guess phrase or -- or
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` whatnot, that says "building energy management and
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` controls."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes. 12:24:42
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` Q. What do you mean by that phrase?
`
` A. It's generally relating it back to the
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` '567 patent, which talks about energy management,
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` thermostatic controls, things that control the
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` building environment. So that's kind of what it 12:25:02
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` is.
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` Q. What types of people would have
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` professional -- or -- or let me re- -- strike
`
` that. Let me start again.
`
` What sort of jobs would have professional 12:25:20
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` experience in building energy management and
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` controls?
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` MS. LAUGHTON: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: There -- there are many
`
` related fields, so I don't know if I can list 12:25:36
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` everybody, but --
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Sure.
`
` A. -- generally speaking, they would have
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` some knowledge of building environment controls, 12:25:42
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` such as heating and air-conditioning systems and
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` how they're controlled, in particular with
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` thermostats or with other digital computers,
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` networks, other mechanisms of controlling because
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` control is part of this -- this heating and 12:26:02
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` air-conditioning system in a building, and
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` managing energy and managing comfort, a variety of
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` things.
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` So those are the kind of broad areas where
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` there can be many -- many different kinds of 12:26:18
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` expertise involved related to this.
`
` Q. Okay. Would a person who is designing an
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` HVAC system for a building be someone who has
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` professional experience in building energy
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` management and controls? 12:26:36
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` A. Again, one would want to make sure they
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` have knowledge of controls, which is one part of
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` this. So it -- it depends on exactly what part of
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` the heating and air-conditioning system is being
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` designed and what else is involved in the design 12:26:56
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` process. So in general, you know, it will depend.
`
` Q. Okay. How about a person who is
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` installing the HVAC system in a -- in a building
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` or a home, would that person have professional
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` experience in building energy management and 12:27:18
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` controls?
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` A. This is related and the patent is clearly
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` related to the -- the design of the system and how
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` it operates internally.
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` Now, a person installing it -- again, 12:27:38
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` there are so many people out there I can't
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` pinpoint everybody and how, you know, broad their
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` knowledge is.
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` I mean, they would have to be intimately
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` understanding how the system works and how it has 12:27:58
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` been designed to be able to qualify as an expert.
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` Q. Okay. Would the designer of a thermostat
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` that controls an HVAC system be a person that has
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` professional experience in building energy
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` management and controls? 12:28:15
`
` A. That would come pretty close, yes, and
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` that's central to the '567.
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` Again, the '567 obviously goes beyond
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` thermostats of the traditional variety, but
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` everything -- you know, there is -- there's so 12:28:27
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` many variety of thermostats, even in that time
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` frame, so one would have to -- generally speaking,
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` having thermostat experience would qualify a
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` person to be an expert in this -- a person of --
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` sorry, a person of ordinary skills in the art in 12:28:45
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` this -- this arena.
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` Q. How about a person who operates a
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` thermostat controller to control the HVAC system,
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` like a building manager or something like that,
`
` would that person have professional experience in 12:29:04
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`GOOGLE v. ECOFACTOR
`IPR2022-00538
`Exhibit 2010
`Page 27
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` building energy management and controls?
`
` A. Again, I -- I -- without any specific
`
` person and their entire experience base and how
`
` expert they are at doing certain things, you can't
`
` judge. 12:29:20
`
` But they would have to have more knowledge
`
` of the internal workings of the thermostat-based
`
` system. And in which case they could qualify.
`
` But, again, it depends.
`
` Q. So to have -- to -- for -- for someone to 12:29:36
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` have the level of ordinary skill in the art in the
`
` '567 patent, they need to have knowledge of the
`
` internal workings of the thermostat? Is that what
`
` you're saying?
`
`
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