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`·2· · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·3· · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·4· · · · · · · · · ______________
`·5· · · · · · · · · ·GOOGLE LLC,
`·6· · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · vs.
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`·9· · · · · · · · ·ECOFACTOR, INC.,
`10· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`· · · · · · · · · · _______________
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`12· · · · · · · · · IPR2022-00538
`13· · · · · · · ·Patent No. 9,194,597
`14· · · · · · · · · _______________
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`· · · · ·Zoom Videoconference Deposition of:
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`· · · · · ·JOHN ARTHUR PALMER, PH.D. P.E.
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`19· · · · · JANUARY 10, 2023 * 11:00 A.M.
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`· · · · · · ·LOCATION:· University of Utah
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`· · ·Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering
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`· · ·50 South Central Campus Drive, Room 2130 MEB
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`· · · · · · · · ·Salt Lake City, Utah
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`25· ·Reporter:· Susette M. Snider, CSR, CRR, RPR
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`·2· ·JOHN ARTHUR PALMER, PH.D. P.E.:· · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · ·Examination by Ms. Laughton...................· ·5
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
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`·6· ·PREVIOUSLY MARKED· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·7· · · 1001· ·U.S. Patent No. 9,194,597 B2 .......... 8
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`·8· · · 1004· ·U.S. Patent No. 2004/0117330 Al ....... 8
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`· · · · · · · ·(Ehlers '330 reference)
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`· · · · 2008· ·Declaration of John A. Palmer, Ph.D.... 6
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`12· · · · ·QUESTIONS WITNESS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · (None)
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`15· · · · · · · · ·INFORMATION TO BE SUPPLIED
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·(None)
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
`·2· ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·3· · · · · · · ·SMITH BALUCH LLP
`· · · · · · · · ·Elizabeth A. Laughton
`·4· · · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · · ·1100 Alma Street, Suite 109
`·5· · · · · · · ·Menlo Park, California 94025
`· · · · · · · · ·Tel:· 703.585.8839
`·6· · · · · · · ·Laughton@smithbaluch.com
`·7· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`·8· · · · · · · ·RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`· · · · · · · · ·Jonathan Link
`·9· · · · · · · ·Attorney at Law
`· · · · · · · · ·12424 Wilshire Boulevard
`10· · · · · · · ·12th Floor
`· · · · · · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90025
`11· · · · · · · ·Tel: 310.826.7474
`· · · · · · · · ·jlink@raklaw.com
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`· · ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`· · · · · · · · ·Jeff Burton, videographer
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·3· · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We are now on the
`·4· ·record.· The time is 11:00 a.m. on January 10, 2023.
`·5· · · · · · · ·This begins the videoconference proceeding
`·6· ·of John Palmer, Ph.D. in the matter of Google, LLC,
`·7· ·versus EgoFactor, Inc., filed in the U.S. Patent and
`·8· ·Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`·9· ·Board, Case No. IPR2022-00538.
`10· · · · · · · ·My name is Jeff Burton.· I'm your remote
`11· ·videographer.· Your court reporter is Susette Snider.
`12· ·We are representing Esquire Deposition Solutions.
`13· · · · · · · ·Counsel, will you please introduce
`14· ·yourselves?
`15· · · · · · · And the witness will be sworn.
`16· · · · · · · ·MS. LAUGHTON:· This is Elizabeth Laughton
`17· ·of the law firm Smith Baluch LLP, representing the
`18· ·petitioner, Google.
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· I'm Jonathan Link, from the law
`20· ·firm of Russ August & Kabat, on behalf of Patent
`21· ·Owner EcoFactor.
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`23· · · · · · · JOHN ARTHUR PALMER, PH.D. P.E.,
`24· · · · · · · ·having been first duly sworn,
`25· · · · · ·was examined and testified as follows:
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`·2· ·BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Good morning, Dr. Palmer.
`·4· · · · ·A.· · Good morning.
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · This is a remote deposition conducted by
`·6· ·Zoom.
`·7· · · · · · · ·Could you please state your name for the
`·8· ·record?
`·9· · · · ·A.· · John Arthur Palmer.
`10· · · · ·Q.· · And you've been deposed before a number of
`11· ·times; is that correct?
`12· · · · ·A.· · That is correct.
`13· · · · ·Q.· · And so is it fair to say that you're
`14· ·familiar with the rules of the deposition?
`15· · · · ·A.· · I would say that's true.
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Is there any reason you can't testify
`17· ·accurately today?
`18· · · · ·A.· · No.
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Do you have any medical or any other
`20· ·issues that would interfere with your testimony
`21· ·today?
`22· · · · ·A.· · No.
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Do you have any documents with you other
`24· ·than the exhibits that I've provided in the chat?
`25· · · · ·A.· · No.
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Have you prepared for today's deposition?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I have.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · What did you do to prepare?
`·4· · · · ·A.· · I reviewed my declaration and portions of
`·5· ·Mr. Shah's declaration, as well as the '597 patent
`·6· ·and the Ehlers reference and a brief look at the
`·7· ·Wruck reference.
`·8· · · · · · · ·(A discussion was held off the record.)
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And did you do anything
`10· ·else to prepare for today's deposition?
`11· · · · ·A.· · I had a phone call with Mr. Link.
`12· · · · ·Q.· · And about how long did you and Mr. Link
`13· ·spend on that phone call?
`14· · · · ·A.· · A little under an hour.
`15· · · · ·Q.· · And about how many hours total would you
`16· ·say that you spent preparing for today's deposition?
`17· · · · ·A.· · Around four.
`18· · · · ·Q.· · And I mentioned I put a couple of exhibits
`19· ·in the chat box.· Could you please take a look at
`20· ·Exhibit 2008?
`21· · · · ·A.· · I have that up.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · And this document is entitled a
`23· ·"Declaration of John A. Palmer, Ph.D."· Are you the
`24· ·John A. Palmer, Ph.D., listed here?
`25· · · · ·A.· · I am.
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Is this your declaration?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · It is.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · And did you sign it under oath?
`·4· · · · ·A.· · I did.
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · Did you read it prior to signing it?
`·6· · · · ·A.· · I did.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · And this declaration relates to U.S.
`·8· ·Patent No. 9,194,597; is that correct?
`·9· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`10· · · · ·Q.· · And you refer to this patent as the '597
`11· ·patent in your declaration.· Is that something we can
`12· ·do here today as well?
`13· · · · ·A.· · Of course.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And I believe you stated that you reviewed
`15· ·the '597 patent again in preparation for today's
`16· ·deposition; is that correct?
`17· · · · ·A.· · It is.
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Do you state that you're generally
`19· ·familiar with the '597 patent and how it works?
`20· · · · ·A.· · I would say in general, yes.
`21· · · · ·Q.· · Do you have an understanding about the
`22· ·relevant time frame for determining obviousness in
`23· ·this case?
`24· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`25· · · · ·Q.· · What is your understanding?
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`·1· · · · ·A.· · My recollection is that this -- that the
`·2· ·'597 patent claims priority and points at the -- at
`·3· ·the actual patent here; but it claims priority to a
`·4· ·provisional application filed on May 12, 2009, so I
`·5· ·would say May of 2009 would be the relevant time
`·6· ·frame.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · And is it okay with you if I refer to that
`·8· ·time frame, the time frame up to and just before
`·9· ·May 12, 2009, as the relevant time frame today?
`10· · · · ·A.· · Sure.
`11· · · · ·Q.· · And, also, just for the record, I've also
`12· ·placed Exhibit 1001, which is the '597 patent, and
`13· ·also Exhibit 1004, which is the Ehlers '330
`14· ·reference, in the chat box.· If you need to refer to
`15· ·any of the exhibits at any time for your testimony,
`16· ·please feel free to do so.
`17· · · · · · · ·Also, if you feel that you need any other
`18· ·exhibits or any other documents that you cite to or
`19· ·anything like that for your testimony today, please
`20· ·just let me know.
`21· · · · ·A.· · Sure.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · So if you could please pull up
`23· ·Exhibit 1001, which is the '597 patent.
`24· · · · ·A.· · I have that up.
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Would you say that you're generally
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`·1· ·familiar with the claims of the '597 patent?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · In your opinion, do the claims of the '597
`·4· ·patent cover systems and/or methods that are used in
`·5· ·commercial structures?
`·6· · · · ·A.· · They can be used in commercial structures.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · And what about in large-scale structures?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I could see that the -- the technology and
`·9· ·the -- the principles could be applied to larger
`10· ·scale structures, although, in general, the -- the
`11· ·descriptions are generally more applicable to
`12· ·small-scale structures or residential application.
`13· · · · ·Q.· · If there were a system or method that were
`14· ·practiced in a large-scale structure, would that
`15· ·prevent that system or method from falling within the
`16· ·claims of the '597 patent?
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`18· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The -- the type of structure
`19· ·alone would not -- it would not disqualify it from
`20· ·being covered under the patent.
`21· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Could a system or
`22· ·method which controls power consumers, such as
`23· ·elevators, escalators, lighting and other equipment,
`24· ·meet the claims of the '597 patent, in your opinion?
`25· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
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`·1· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In principle, it could.· Of
`·2· ·course, it would depend on a lot more than just the
`·3· ·integration of other elements.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· But the fact that it
`·5· ·controlled those other elements would not in and of
`·6· ·itself preclude it from falling within the claims of
`·7· ·the '597 patent, in your opinion; is that correct?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · It -- it wouldn't necessarily.· Just,
`·9· ·again, as I'd indicated, the specification for the
`10· ·'597 doesn't -- doesn't generally -- isn't generally
`11· ·directed to larger scale structures, but there's
`12· ·certainly nothing precluding it from being applied to
`13· ·the larger scale structure.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · If you could please turn to Figure 6B of
`15· ·the '597 patent.· And, also, for your reference, if
`16· ·you'd like to take a look at it, the accompanying
`17· ·description starts at column 5, line 17.
`18· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`19· · · · ·Q.· · And in this figure the HVAC system is off
`20· ·for some portion of the time; is that correct?
`21· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · And, specifically, this figure depicts
`23· ·changes in inside temperature over time when the HVAC
`24· ·system is off from noon to 7:00 p.m.; is that
`25· ·correct?
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`·1· · · · ·A.· · Approximately, yes.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · And during that time period, the inside
`·3· ·temperature inside the house reaches 88 degrees
`·4· ·Fahrenheit when the system is off; is that correct?
`·5· · · · ·A.· · No.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · Can you explain to me why that is not
`·7· ·correct?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Let me reference -- you said that was
`·9· ·column 5, starting with line 17?
`10· · · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`11· · · · ·A.· · Okay.· On the graphic on 6A,
`12· ·Figure 6A, it shows that the inside temperature is
`13· ·marked as 304a, and the highest temperature that's
`14· ·denoted on 304a is actually about 80 degrees, not 88
`15· ·degrees.
`16· · · · ·Q.· · So if you could please take a look at
`17· ·column 5, 17.· And feel free to just read the first
`18· ·couple sentences to yourself there.
`19· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`20· · · · ·Q.· · And so do you see that it states:
`21· ·"As expected, the inside temperature 304a rises with
`22· ·increasing outside temperatures 302 for most of that
`23· ·period reaching 88 degrees at 7 PM"?
`24· · · · ·A.· · I do see that.
`25· · · · ·Q.· · What is your understanding of that
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`·1· ·sentence?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · My understanding is that the intent was to
`·3· ·reflect what the graphic shows.· I can infer from
`·4· ·that there's as typographical error, because the
`·5· ·graphic -- the Figure 6B would be equally interpreted
`·6· ·by a POSITA as showing a maximum temperature of
`·7· ·approximately 80 degrees.· So it appears they
`·8· ·substituted a -- an 8 for a zero in the second digit
`·9· ·of that number, is the way I would interpret it in
`10· ·the context of the description.
`11· · · · ·Q.· · And just to be clear, your testimony is
`12· ·regarding Figure 6B; is that correct?
`13· · · · ·A.· · Yes.· Yes, that is correct.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · But your testimony regarding Figure 6B is
`15· ·that during that time period the inside temperature
`16· ·reaches 80 degrees; is that correct?
`17· · · · ·A.· · Based on the -- the temperatures indicated
`18· ·or the scale indicated on the left side of that
`19· ·graph, that's approximate -- approximately what I
`20· ·would interpret it to be, maybe slightly higher.· It
`21· ·might be an 81 or 82, but it's somewhere around
`22· ·80 degrees.
`23· · · · ·Q.· · And so if you could please turn to
`24· ·column 5, line -- I think it's 22 and 23.· Just keep
`25· ·reading that little section of column 5 there,
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`·1· ·please.
`·2· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·3· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · And do you see there that the '597 patent
`·5· ·states that the server logs temperature readings, as
`·6· ·an example, once per minute?
`·7· · · · ·A.· · I do see that.
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · And some of those temperature readings
`·9· ·would be logged when the system is off; is that
`10· ·correct?
`11· · · · ·A.· · I would -- yes, I would interpret that
`12· ·to -- to mean once per minute whether the system is
`13· ·on or off.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And do you see at column 5, line 32, it
`15· ·states that the server will be able to predict at any
`16· ·given time on any given day the rate at which inside
`17· ·temperature should change for given inside and
`18· ·outside temperatures?
`19· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`20· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`21· · · · ·Q.· · And in order to be able to do that, the
`22· ·'597 patent systems gather data; is that correct?
`23· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And how long would it take, in your
`25· ·opinion, the '597 patent systems to gather sufficient
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`·1· ·temperature data to be able to perform that
`·2· ·prediction?
`·3· · · · ·A.· · That would depend on a lot of parameters,
`·4· ·including the nature of the system and the -- the
`·5· ·resolution that was intended in the target.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · Can you provide a range of about how long
`·7· ·it might take to gather that data?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Not without having the other parameters to
`·9· ·gauge it against.
`10· · · · ·Q.· · What about the parameters listed here
`11· ·where it says that the inputs are logged against
`12· ·other inputs, including time of day and humidity?
`13· ·About how long would it take to gather that data?
`14· · · · ·A.· · Again, there's not sufficient detail here
`15· ·to -- to gauge a specific target resolution on a
`16· ·learning algorithm.
`17· · · · ·Q.· · Can you provide a minimum amount of time
`18· ·that it might take?
`19· · · · ·A.· · I really didn't evaluate that in detail.
`20· ·It wasn't addressed in -- in Mr. Shah's declaration,
`21· ·and so it was not within the scope of my analysis.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · And you see here that we've been talking
`23· ·about the section of the patent that says that
`24· ·it's -- that the server is able to predict at any
`25· ·given time on any given day the rate at which inside
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`·1· ·temperature should change for given inside and
`·2· ·outside temperatures.
`·3· · · · · · · ·Specifically does the '597 patent describe
`·4· ·an algorithm for how to perform that prediction?
`·5· · · · ·A.· · It does generally describe an algorithm.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · Can you point me to where it does that?
`·7· · · · ·A.· · The -- the descriptions are interspersed
`·8· ·throughout the specification and -- and graphics.· In
`·9· ·terms of extracting specific line-by-line elements of
`10· ·the algorithm, I am not prepared to do that at this
`11· ·time.· It wasn't addressed by Mr. Shah and,
`12· ·therefore, was outside the scope of my declaration.
`13· · · · ·Q.· · Is there a general place that you can
`14· ·point me to in the '597 patent where -- where, in
`15· ·your opinion, it discusses that algorithm? I
`16· ·understand that that may not be an exhaustive
`17· ·description.
`18· · · · ·A.· · There are various aspects of it that are
`19· ·discussed in column 5, for example, but, as I said,
`20· ·it was not -- having an exhaustive answer to your
`21· ·question is -- is not something I'm prepared to
`22· ·address today.
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Do any of the patent's figures describe
`24· ·such an algorithm?
`25· · · · ·A.· · Not specifically that I'm seeing at this
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`·1· ·point.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · You had mentioned various aspects of
`·3· ·column 5.· Could you point me specifically to the
`·4· ·portions of column 5 that you have in mind?
`·5· · · · ·A.· · There's -- there's information contained
`·6· ·within the paragraph starting on line 5.· There's
`·7· ·information contained within the paragraph starting
`·8· ·on line 17.· There's information contained within the
`·9· ·paragraph starting on line 35.
`10· · · · ·Q.· · And so, in your opinion, those portions of
`11· ·the '597 patent describe an algorithm for how to
`12· ·perform that prediction?
`13· · · · ·A.· · They teach aspects of the algorithm.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · Do they teach the entire algorithm for how
`15· ·to perform that prediction?
`16· · · · ·A.· · I don't believe those paragraphs, in
`17· ·isolation, are intended to teach the entire
`18· ·algorithm.
`19· · · · ·Q.· · What, in your opinion, are they intended
`20· ·to do?
`21· · · · ·A.· · Describe aspects of the invention and its
`22· ·application in -- you know, to some exemplary
`23· ·embodiments.
`24· · · · ·Q.· · In your opinion, does the '597 patent
`25· ·disclose specifically how to calculate what it refers
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`·1· ·to as the effective thermal mass of the structure?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I don't have a recollection of a specific
`·3· ·equation that it puts forward for that purpose.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · In your opinion, would a person of
`·5· ·ordinary skill in the art reading the '597 patent
`·6· ·know how to calculate what the '597 describes as the
`·7· ·effective thermal mass of the structure?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I believe so, based on the -- the
`·9· ·teachings of the '597 and the skill of -- or the
`10· ·knowledge of one of ordinary skill in the art.· But I
`11· ·don't have -- I'm not prepared at this time to -- to
`12· ·extract all of the information from the body of the
`13· ·specification to illustrate that point.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And at column 5, line 26, the '597 patent
`15· ·specifically defines the effective thermal mass for
`16· ·each structure as the speed with the temperature
`17· ·inside a given building will change in response to
`18· ·changes in outside temperature; is that correct?
`19· · · · ·A.· · That's the way it's worded, yes.
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Now turning to the claims of the '597
`21· ·patent, certain of the claims of the '597 patent
`22· ·recite a predicted rate of change; is that correct?
`23· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And do the claims of the '597 patent
`25· ·require that the predicted rate of change be
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`·1· ·determined with any particular level of accuracy?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · The precision of the analysis is not
`·3· ·specified.
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · If you could please turn to your
`·5· ·declaration in this matter, which is Exhibit 2008,
`·6· ·and specifically paragraph 16, if you want to take a
`·7· ·look at that.
`·8· · · · · · · ·And do you see there you state:
`·9· · · · · · · ·For example, Figure 7 states an example
`10· · · · ·for detecting the occurrence of a manual
`11· · · · ·override event.
`12· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`13· · · · ·Q.· · Where specifically, in your opinion, does
`14· ·Figure 7 discussion the use of an automated set
`15· ·point?
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`17· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And if you need to
`18· ·refer to, you know, the description accompanying
`19· ·Figure 17 in the '597 patent, please do so.
`20· · · · ·A.· · I'm sorry.· You're awaiting an answer?
`21· · · · ·Q.· · I was.
`22· · · · ·A.· · I thought there for a second maybe --
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Oh, no.
`24· · · · ·A.· · -- my answer didn't come through.
`25· · · · ·Q.· · I -- I did not hear anything, so why don't
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`·1· ·we just try that again.
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I apologize if -- everything went still
`·3· ·for a second, so --
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Uh-oh.
`·5· · · · ·A.· · -- it might be that my answer was not
`·6· ·provided.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's try that again.
`·8· · · · · · · ·MS. LAUGHTON:· Court reporter, did you
`·9· ·hear anything.
`10· · · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· No.
`11· · · · · · · ·MS. LAUGHTON:· Okay.· All right.· Well,
`12· ·then, we're in the same position.
`13· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I apologize for that --
`14· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· It's not your fault.
`15· · · · ·A.· · -- the technological hiccups.
`16· · · · · · · ·Okay.· So as --
`17· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Can I reask my
`18· ·question?· Is that okay?· Just?
`19· · · · ·A.· · That would be fine.
`20· · · · ·Q.· · -- to make the record clear?
`21· · · · · · · ·So my question was where specifically does
`22· ·Figure 7 discuss the use of an automated set point?
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`24· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· And the Figure 7 does not
`25· ·expressly use the term "automated" in it.· It does
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`·1· ·talk about actual and scheduled set point data, and
`·2· ·from the body of the specification, one might -- a
`·3· ·POSITA would understand that the scheduled set point
`·4· ·data, if it is scheduled by the system, would
`·5· ·constitute an automated set point.
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Does the '597 patent
`·7· ·specifically define the "term automated set point"?
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Off the top of my head, I don't -- I
`·9· ·don't -- don't recall whether it does or doesn't, but
`10· ·I believe that's a term that a -- a POSITA would
`11· ·understand.
`12· · · · ·Q.· · And so you're not aware, sitting here
`13· ·today, of any specific definition in the '597 patent
`14· ·of the "term automated set point"; is that correct?
`15· · · · ·A.· · Not off the top of my head.
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Do you agree that a set point is a
`17· ·thermostat setting with time and temperature
`18· ·components?
`19· · · · ·A.· · I would say, in general, a set point would
`20· ·be considered to have just a temperature setting,
`21· ·although it can be programmed as a -- as having a
`22· ·time element to it as well.· But, in general, the
`23· ·term "setpoint" would just talk about a temperature
`24· ·that is the -- the target for the control system to
`25· ·drive the -- the temperature to.
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· · So you disagree that a person of ordinary
`·2· ·skill in the art would understand that a set point is
`·3· ·a thermostat setting with time and temperature
`·4· ·components?
`·5· · · · ·A.· · In some amplifications, it would have both
`·6· ·time and temperature opponents, and so it would
`·7· ·depend on -- on the context of the phrasing.· But
`·8· ·absent any context, I would say that a -- a set point
`·9· ·is a target temperature.
`10· · · · ·Q.· · In what contexts would a set point be
`11· ·understood to be a thermostat setting with time and
`12· ·temperature components?
`13· · · · ·A.· · I -- I -- are you looking for a specific
`14· ·example from me, or are you wanting me to say -- I'm
`15· ·not sure I understand the scope of your question.
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Sure.· So I want to know whether or not,
`17· ·in your opinion, a person of ordinary skill in the
`18· ·art would understand that a set point is a thermostat
`19· ·setting with time and temperature components, or not.
`20· · · · ·A.· · It would be -- it would depend on how the
`21· ·term was being used.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · What about how the term "setpoint" is used
`23· ·in the '597 patent?· Let's make that the context.
`24· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`25· · · · ·Q.· · In your opinion, in the context of the
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`·1· ·'597 patent, would a person of ordinary skill in the
`·2· ·art understand that a set point is a thermostat
`·3· ·setting with time and temperature components?· Yes or
`·4· ·no.
`·5· · · · ·A.· · I'm -- I'm just looking at the claims of
`·6· ·the -- of the '597 to answer your question.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Of course.· Feel free to take your time to
`·8· ·look at whatever you need to look at to answer that
`·9· ·question.
`10· · · · ·A.· · As I look through, for example, Claim 1, I
`11· ·see reference to detection -- detecting manual
`12· ·changes to the set point for a thermostat controller
`13· ·that would suggest -- be only suggestive of a
`14· ·temperature, without necessarily having a time
`15· ·component.
`16· · · · · · · ·And, then, going down to I guess what
`17· ·would generally be referred to as Claim 1D, as in
`18· ·dog, we have reference to scheduled programming.
`19· ·Now, scheduled programming would refer both to time
`20· ·and temperature and, in fact, comprising, at least a
`21· ·first automated set point at a first time.· There
`22· ·it's expressly referencing the temperature separate
`23· ·from the time, although the combination is contained
`24· ·within the reference to scheduled programming.
`25· · · · · · · ·Going down a little further, recording
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`·1· ·actual setpoints, that could potentially be read
`·2· ·either way.
`·3· · · · · · · ·Communicating the actual setpoints from
`·4· ·one or more thermostatic controllers to at least one
`·5· ·computer, again, that -- that seems to imply just a
`·6· ·temperature to me generating with at least a first
`·7· ·automated set point for the -- let's see -- a
`·8· ·difference value based on comparing at least one of
`·9· ·the actual setpoints at the first time for the
`10· ·thermostatic controller to the first automated set
`11· ·point for the thermostatic controller.
`12· · · · · · · ·There, again, it's calling out
`13· ·specifically the time element as not necessarily
`14· ·being embodied within the set point value.
`15· · · · · · · ·And, then, you know -- so I would say, in
`16· ·general, the -- the interpretation of set point as
`17· ·being a temperature is -- is valid here.· The
`18· ·reference to time is brought in in several points to
`19· ·provide clarity.
`20· · · · ·Q.· · And I think you referenced here the
`21· ·language in Claim 1 that says, "the scheduled
`22· ·programming comprising at least a first automated set
`23· ·point at a first time."
`24· · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`25· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· · And so there it refers to the time
`·2· ·component of the automated set point; is that
`·3· ·correct?
`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It refers to the time
`·6· ·component of the scheduled programming.· It doesn't
`·7· ·say -- it doesn't even necessarily imply that the
`·8· ·automated set point includes a time component.· It
`·9· ·just couples it with a time component under the
`10· ·umbrella of scheduled programming.
`11· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And so, then, you
`12· ·disagree that an automated set point in the context
`13· ·of the '597 patent is a thermostat setting with time
`14· ·and temperature components?
`15· · · · ·A.· · I -- I would say that as reflected in
`16· ·Claim 1 that it is -- that the temperature is
`17· ·generally referring -- or, sorry -- the set point is
`18· ·generally referring to a temperature.· But it gives
`19· ·context that could be read otherwise, and I certainly
`20· ·wouldn't say there's no place within the -- within
`21· ·the four corners of the '597 patent that does not
`22· ·contemplate having the term "setpoint" include a time
`23· ·element.
`24· · · · ·Q.· · So, then, you agree, then, that within the
`25· ·context of the '597 patent a set point is a
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`·1· ·thermostat setting with time and temperature
`·2· ·components?
`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`·4· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't have an express
`·5· ·reference within the '597 patent in which the term
`·6· ·"setpoint" expressly includes a time element.
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· What --
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I'm not prepared to -- to give a full and
`·9· ·complete answer to that.
`10· · · · · · · ·I do recognize -- as I'm looking at Claim
`11· ·1 as we've been sitting here, I do not see an express
`12· ·reference in which I would universally say that the
`13· ·term "setpoint" is intended to include a time
`14· ·element, since the Claim 1 makes reference to the
`15· ·scheduled programming consisting of an automated set
`16· ·point and a time.
`17· · · · · · · ·In other words, I don't have a complete
`18· ·answer to your question.
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of anywhere in the '597
`20· ·patent where it contemplates that a set point is not
`21· ·a thermostat setting with time and temperature
`22· ·components?
`23· · · · ·A.· · Off the top of my head, I don't have any
`24· ·specific reference I can point to where the set point
`25· ·is expressly identified as consisting of both a time
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`·1· ·and temperature.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · But that wasn't -- that wasn't my
`·3· ·question.· My question was whether you're aware of
`·4· ·any portions of the '597 patent that it would exclude
`·5· ·the understanding of a set point being a thermostat
`·6· ·setting with a time and temperature component.
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`·8· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, as we just discussed,
`·9· ·the explanation that we previously were pointing at
`10· ·in Claim 1D -- or Claim Element 1D where it
`11· ·specifically says "scheduled programming comprising
`12· ·at least a first automated set point at a first time"
`13· ·suggests that the set point does not comprise a time,
`14· ·but the scheduled programming comprises both the
`15· ·temperature, set point and the time at which it is
`16· ·intended.· But it doesn't expressly preclude that --
`17· ·that a set point could include a time element.
`18· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And so just to be
`19· ·clear, you can't provide a yes-or-no answer as to
`20· ·whether or not, in your opinion, a person of ordinary
`21· ·skill in the art would understand, in the context of
`22· ·the '597 patent, that a set point is a thermostat
`23· ·setting with a time and temperature component?
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`25· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I don't have a more
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`·1· ·refined answer than I've already given you.
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And just to be clear,
`·3· ·my question here is about the term "setpoint"
`·4· ·generally.· You can't provide an answer one way or
`·5· ·another whether a person of ordinary skill in the art
`·6· ·would understand, in the context of the '597 patent,
`·7· ·that a set point is a thermostat setting with a time
`·8· ·and temperature component?
`·9· · · · ·A.· · The -- the term "setpoint" generally, as I
`10· ·understand it, would refer to a temperature element.
`11· ·And there may be some context in which it could be
`12· ·read to include a temperature -- or, sorry -- a time
`13· ·element, but I don't have a specific reference in the
`14· ·'597 patent that I can point at, as we sit here right
`15· ·now.
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Is it your opinion that a person of
`17· ·ordinary skill in the art would understand that a set
`18· ·point is, then, limited to an indoor temperature
`19· ·value?
`20· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`21· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Again, as I said previously,
`22· ·you've got to read it in context.
`23· · · · ·Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· And the context here is
`24· ·in the context of a person of ordinary skill in the
`25· ·art reading and understanding the '597 patent and its
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`·1· ·usage of the term "set point."· What about in that
`·2· ·context?
`·3· · · · ·A.· · In -- in -- there -- there's probably
`·4· ·several hundred references to the term "setpoint" in
`·5· ·the '597 patent.· To -- to say exclusively one or the
`·6· ·other, I would want to take the time to go through
`·7· ·each sentence which uses the term "setpoint" and make
`·8· ·sure that I am not a misreading it in the context of
`·9· ·that particular sentence.
`10· · · · · · · ·But, in general, as i read the claims, the
`11· ·set point in the context of the '597 patent, at least
`12· ·in general, appears to refer to a temperature and not
`13· ·necessarily including a time.
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And so you have not, sitting here today,
`15· ·done that analysis?· You haven't gone through the
`16· ·'597 patent and determined whether or not a set point
`17· ·would include a time component in the context of the
`18· ·'597 patent?
`19· · · · ·A.· · That -- that wasn't an issue that was --
`20· ·that was raised by Mr. Shah, and so I did not address
`21· ·it.
`22· · · · ·Q.· · So, in your opinion, if the system
`23· ·calculates the time at which a thermostatic
`24· ·temperature setting is to be applied, then that is
`25· ·not an automated set point, is that correct, in the
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`·1· ·context of the '597 patent?
`·2· · · · ·A.· · If the temperature is not --
`·3· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`·4· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:·