·1· · · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`Page 1
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`·2
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`·3· · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·4· · · · · · · _______________________
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`·5
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`·6· · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·7· · · · · · · ________________________
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · GOOGLE, LLC,
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`10· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·ECOFACTOR, INC.
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`13· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`
`14· · · · · · · ________________________
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`15· · · · · · · · · ·IPR2021-00982
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`16· · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 10,612,983 B2
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`17· · · · · · · _________________________
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`18
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`19· · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF:
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`20· · · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`21· · · · · · · · FRIDAY, APRIL 29, 2022
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·Reported by:· Monice K. Campbell, CA CCR No. 14171
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`25· ·Job No.: 210333
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`GOOGLE 1026
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`
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`Page 1
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`·2
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`·3· · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·4· · · · · · · _______________________
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`·5
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`·6· · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·7· · · · · · · ________________________
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · GOOGLE, LLC,
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`10· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·ECOFACTOR, INC.
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`13· · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`
`14· · · · · · · ________________________
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`15· · · · · · · · · ·IPR2021-00982
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`16· · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 10,612,983 B2
`
`17· · · · · · · _________________________
`
`18
`
`19· · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF:
`
`20· · · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`21· · · · · · · · FRIDAY, APRIL 29, 2022
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·Reported by:· Monice K. Campbell, CA CCR No. 14171
`
`25· ·Job No.: 210333
`
`GOOGLE 1026
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF:
`
`·3· · JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D., held remotely, on
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`·4· · Friday, April 29, 2022, at 11:00 a.m.,
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`·5· · before Monice K. Campbell, Certified Court
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`·6· · Reporter, in and for the State of
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`Page 2
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`·7· · California.
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`·8
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`·9· ·APPEARANCES:
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`10· ·For the Petitioner:
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`11· · · · ·SMITH BALUCH LLP
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`12· · · · ·BY:· ELIZABETH LAUGHTON, ESQ.
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`13· · · · ·1100 Alma Street
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`14· · · · ·Menlo Park, California 94025
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`15
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`16· ·For the Patent Owner AudioEye, Inc.:
`
`17· · · · ·RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`
`18· · · · ·BY:· JONATHAN LINK, ESQ.
`
`19· · · · ·800 Maine Avenue SW
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`20· · · · ·Washington, DC 20024
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`Page 3
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`·3· · JOHN A. PALMER, PH.D.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·4· ·Examination By Ms. Laughton· · · · · · · · · · · · 4
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`·5
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`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·(Referenced)
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`·8· · NUMBER· · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·9· ·Exhibit 1001· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
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`10· ·Exhibit 1006· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
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`11· ·Exhibit 1008· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
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`12· ·Exhibit 2005· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·FRIDAY, APRIL 29, 2022
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·11:03 A.M.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·* * * * *
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`·6· ·Whereupon,
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.,
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`·8· ·having been sworn to testify to the truth, the whole
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`·9· · truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and
`
`10· · testified under oath as follows:
`
`11
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`12· · · · · · · ·MS. LAUGHTON:· This is Elizabeth
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`13· · Laughton from Smith Baluch, LLP representing
`
`14· · Petitioner Google, LLC, counsel for
`
`15· · EcoFactor.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Would you like to introduce
`
`17· · yourself?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Certainly.
`
`19· · Jonathan Link for the law firm of Russ
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`20· · August.
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`21
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`22· · · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`23· · ·BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· And this is a deposition in the
`
`25· · ·matter IPR2021-00982 as it relates to the
`
`
`
`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·'983 patent.
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`·3· · · · · · ·Dr. Palmer, good morning.
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`·4· · · · ·A.· Good morning.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· This is a remote deposition that
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`·6· ·is being conducted via zoom.
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`·7· · · · · · ·Could you please state your full
`
`·8· · name for the record?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· I am John Arthur Palmer.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· And Dr. Palmer, you have been
`
`11· ·deposed before; is that correct?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· I have.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· About how many times have you
`
`14· ·been deposed?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· Around 80.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· So I think it's fair to say you
`
`17· ·are very familiar with the rules of a
`
`18· ·deposition; is that correct?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· I am.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· I'll just note if at any point I
`
`21· ·ask you a question today that you don't
`
`22· ·understand, please ask me to clarify and I
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`23· ·will do my best to ask you a better
`
`24· ·question.
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`25· · · · ·A.· Of course.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Thank you.· Is there any reason
`
`·3· ·you can't testify accurately and completely
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`Page 6
`
`·4· ·today?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· No.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any medical or any
`
`·7· ·other issues that might interfere with your
`
`·8· ·testimony today?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· No.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· Have you prepared for today's
`
`11· ·deposition?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· I have.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· What did you do to prepare?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· I reviewed my report.· I reviewed
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`15· ·portions of the patent at issue and
`
`16· ·portions of Mr. Shah's report and part of
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`17· ·the -- some of the prior art references.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· Did you meet with counsel to
`
`19· ·prepare for today's deposition?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· I had a phone conference with
`
`21· ·counsel yesterday.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· And is that Mr. Link?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· And about how many hours did you
`
`25· ·spend preparing with Mr. Link yesterday?
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`
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·A.· It was around two hours.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· Did you do anything else to
`
`·4· ·prepare for today's deposition?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Other than what I just described,
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`·6· ·no.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And I believe you said that you
`
`·8· ·reviewed your report.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·Are you referring to what is
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`10· · Exhibit 2005, the declaration of
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`11· · John A. Palmer, Ph.D. in this matter?
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`12· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`13· · · · · · ·(Exhibit Number 1001, which was
`
`14· · · · · · ·previously marked, was referenced.)
`
`15· · · · · · ·(Exhibit Number 1006, which was
`
`16· · · · · · ·previously marked, was referenced.)
`
`17· · · · · · ·(Exhibit Number 1008, which was
`
`18· · · · · · ·previously marked, was referenced.)
`
`19· · · · · · ·(Exhibit Number 2005, which was
`
`20· · · · · · ·previously marked, was referenced.)
`
`21· ·BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· I'll just note for the record at
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`23· ·this point that I've placed a couple of
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`24· ·different documents in the chat box and
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`25· ·Dr. Palmer has been able to access them.
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`
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`Page 8
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·Those documents are Exhibit 1001 in this
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`·3· ·matter, Exhibit 2005, which is the Palmer
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`·4· ·declaration, Exhibit 1006 and Exhibit 1008,
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`·5· ·and all those documents have been
`
`·6· ·previously marked.
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`·7· · · · · · ·So you said yes, you did indeed
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`·8· · review the Palmer declaration; is that
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`·9· · correct?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· Could you please open up that
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`12· ·document and take a look at it?
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`13· · · · ·A.· You faded out.· I did not hear
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`14· ·what you were saying.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· Sorry about that.· Please let me
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`16· ·know if there's any hearing issues or
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`17· ·anything like that.· Could you please open
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`18· ·up that document?
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`19· · · · ·A.· The declaration?
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`20· · · · ·Q.· Yes.· Exhibit 2005, the Palmer
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`21· ·declaration?
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`22· · · · ·A.· Yes, I have it open.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· Are you the John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`
`24· ·who's listed here on this declaration?
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`25· · · · ·A.· Yes, I am.
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· And did you sign this declaration
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`Page 9
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`·3· ·under oath?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· I did.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· Did you read it prior to signing
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`·6· ·it?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry?
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Did you read it prior to signing
`
`·9· ·it?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· Extensively wrote most of it.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· And are you referring to the
`
`12· ·patent at issue in this proceeding as the
`
`13· ·'983 patent in your declaration; is that
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`14· ·correct?
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`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· Can we do that here as well?
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`17· · · · ·A.· I'm fine with that.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· After you signed the final
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`19· ·version of this declaration, about how many
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`20· ·hours total do you think you spent
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`21· ·preparing for this deposition?
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`22· · · · ·A.· Eight or 10.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· And I believe you stated that you
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`24· ·reviewed portions of the '983 patent in
`
`25· ·preparation for today's deposition; is that
`
`
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`Page 10
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`·2· ·correct?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Are you pretty familiar with how
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`·5· ·the '983 patent works?
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`·6· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
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`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`·8· ·BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· You can answer.
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`10· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· Sorry, I didn't hear you.
`
`12· · · · · · ·And I believe you also stated
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`13· · that you reviewed some of the references
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`14· · that are at issue in this proceeding; is
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`15· · that correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· And is one of those references
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`18· ·that you reviewed the Wedekind reference,
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`19· ·which is Exhibit 1006 in this proceeding
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`20· ·and which has been provided to you?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· And is another one of those
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`23· ·references the Ehlers reference, which is
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`24· ·Exhibit 1008 in this proceeding and which
`
`25· ·has been provided to you?
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`
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`Page 11
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· Could you please get your
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`·4· ·declaration in front of you?· If you could
`
`·5· ·go, please, to paragraph 9 of your
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`·6· ·declaration.
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`·7· · · · ·A.· I'm there.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· If at any point I direct you to a
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`·9· ·portion of your declaration, please take
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`10· ·your time to familiarize yourself with it
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`11· ·and reread that section or any other
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`12· ·sections you need to in order to be able to
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`13· ·answer my questions.
`
`14· · · · ·A.· Sure.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· In this paragraph you're
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`16· ·describing your professional opinions; is
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`17· ·that correct?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· It seems to be that you're
`
`19· ·interfering with your mike when you're
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`20· ·bumping the cord and you keep dropping out
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`21· ·or fading out.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· Interfering with the mike?
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`23· · · · ·A.· Your cord that you've got
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`24· ·dangling from your ears seems to be -- the
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`25· ·connection to the computer, I'm guessing,
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`
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`Page 12
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·is not as secure as it should be.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
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`·4· · · · ·A.· It keeps fading out but I can
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`·5· ·hear you now.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· Why don't I just do this without
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`·7· ·head phones and we'll see if that helps,
`
`·8· ·you know, like if there's less feedback?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Fair enough.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· Can everybody hear me?
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`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· Let me know if there are any
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`13· ·additional issues.· Hopefully this will fix
`
`14· ·the· problem.
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`15· · · · ·A.· Thank you.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· So in this portion of your
`
`17· ·declaration, paragraph 9, you're describing
`
`18· ·your professional experience; is that
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`19· ·correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· I wanted to ask you specifically
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`22· ·about the portions of this paragraph that
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`23· ·go over on to page 6.· So please feel free
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`24· ·to read the whole paragraph if you need to.
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`25· · · · ·A.· That faded out again.· Apparently
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`Page 13
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·we haven't resolved the issue.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let's go off the record
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`·4· ·for a second.
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`·5· · · · · · · · ·(Recess had.)
`
`·6· ·BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Sorry about that.· Can you hear
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`·8· ·me better now?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· I can.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Great.· At any point if
`
`11· ·there's a sound issue, just let me know and
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`12· ·I'll see what I can do.
`
`13· · · · · · ·So I think before we stopped, I
`
`14· · had directed you to what is paragraph 9 of
`
`15· · your declaration?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Do you have that in front of you?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· I do.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· And this paragraph -- in this
`
`20· ·paragraph you're describing your
`
`21· ·professional experience; is that correct?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· A portion of it, yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· And I wanted to ask you in
`
`24· ·particular about the portion of this
`
`25· ·paragraph that goes on to page 6.· So if
`
`
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`Page 14
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·you need to take a minute to read this
`
`·3· ·entire paragraph, feel free to do that?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· I actually had a few minutes just
`
`·5· ·now while you were working out the
`
`·6· ·technical issues, so I have read it.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Excellent.· Good multitasking.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·So here you state, number 4, "As
`
`·9· · an engineering consultant, I have
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`10· · evaluated and investigated numerous
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`11· · control systems, which included sensors,
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`12· · including temperature sensors actuators
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`13· · and controllers."
`
`14· · · · · · ·Do you see that sentence?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· I do.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· And then do you see after that
`
`17· ·there is a sentence starting "Examples
`
`18· ·include at least 10 commercial and
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`19· ·industrial HVAC systems that were involved
`
`20· ·in fire incidents"?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· And so I just wanted to ask you
`
`23· ·about the sentence just to make sure that I
`
`24· ·am understanding it correctly.· Are you
`
`25· ·stating here that you are discussing 10
`
`
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`Page 15
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· ·different examples of your work and then
`
`·3· ·listing out specific projects, or is this a
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`·4· ·list that constitutes a series?
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So, for example, you state that
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`·6· · there are at least 10 commercial
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`·7· · industrial HVAC systems that were involved
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`·8· · in fire incidents and then each item after
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`·9· · that is separate from that.· Does that
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`10· · make sense?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.· The following items are
`
`12· ·separate from that.· Obviously residential
`
`13· ·thermostat wouldn't fall in the category of
`
`14· ·commercial and industrial HVAC systems.
`
`15· ·Yes, they are separate and distinct,
`
`16· ·amounting to numerous other incidents and
`
`17· ·situations that I was involved in
`
`18· ·evaluating.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.· That helps.
`
`20· · · · · · ·So then in this sentence starting
`
`21· · "examples include," about how many
`
`22· · different examples are you then
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`23· · discussing?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· I'm not sure I understand your
`
`25· ·question.
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`
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`Page 16
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Sure.· So I understand this
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`·3· ·project -- I understand this sentence to be
`
`·4· ·providing examples of projects that you
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`·5· ·state that you worked on; is that correct?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And so about how many different
`
`·8· ·examples are you listing here?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· Probably 40 to 50.· That's an
`
`10· ·estimate.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· And would it be fair to refer to
`
`12· ·these examples that you're discussing here
`
`13· ·as work that you've done that is related to
`
`14· ·a failure analyses?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I would say, in general,
`
`16· ·they are associated with failure analysis.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· And about how much time, whether
`
`18· ·that's in hours or months, however you
`
`19· ·think it appropriate to count that, do you
`
`20· ·think you spent total in working on
`
`21· ·consulting projects relating to failure
`
`22· ·analyses?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· Consulting projects related to
`
`24· ·failure analyses, I would say 20 plus
`
`25· ·years.
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`
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`Page 17
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`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· And so my specific question is
`
`·3· ·more -- is not really related to the amount
`
`·4· ·of time over which you've done this work
`
`·5· ·but actually the amount of time you
`
`·6· ·specifically spent on this work.· Does that
`
`·7· ·make sense?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· I have been employed full time in
`
`·9· ·forensic engineering, which includes
`
`10· ·failure analysis, for over 20 years, and in
`
`11· ·the context of that, there have been, as I
`
`12· ·indicated, many, many examples of matters
`
`13· ·in which I did failure analysis
`
`14· ·addressing -- in which I needed to do a
`
`15· ·full comprehensive understanding of the
`
`16· ·operation of boilers and HVAC systems and
`
`17· ·temperature control systems and so on and
`
`18· ·so forth, as I've kind of laid out in this
`
`19· ·paragraph.
`
`20· · · · · · ·In terms of the total amount of
`
`21· · time, I can apportion to that.· It
`
`22· · would -- it would be difficult to slice
`
`23· · and dice, so to speak, to split out
`
`24· · specific timelines but I would say easily,
`
`25· · you know, on these kinds of projects I've
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · got several years.· Again, I just don't
`
`·3· · know that I can provide a reasonable
`
`·4· · chronological estimate of the actual
`
`·5· · number of man-hours worked but it was --
`
`·6· · it's thousands of man-hours
`
`·7· · unquestionably.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· About how many hours does a
`
`·9· ·typical consulting project relating to
`
`10· ·failure analysis take you?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· I've had projects that are as
`
`12· ·little as three to four hours and projects
`
`13· ·that are as many as three to 400 hours.
`
`14· ·One of the things that I like about my job
`
`15· ·is typical isn't typical.· And so I --
`
`16· ·there's a wide variety of applications and
`
`17· ·situations and systems that I need to to
`
`18· ·evaluate at a very in depth -- to a very in
`
`19· ·depth level.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· So that's great.· You just
`
`21· ·provided me sort of the range there in
`
`22· ·terms of how long these projects take you.
`
`23· ·Are most projects closer to the three-hour
`
`24· ·range or closer to the couple hundred hours
`
`25· ·range?
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· Well, if I had to assign a number
`
`·3· ·just in general, a wide variety of
`
`·4· ·projects, I'd say the majority of my
`
`·5· ·projects end up between 10 to 20 hours.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· And so here in the last sentence
`
`·7· ·of paragraph 9, do you see that you state:
`
`·8· ·"I have also performed in-depth analysis of
`
`·9· ·various Smart thermostats and other HVAC
`
`10· ·control systems in the context of
`
`11· ·intellectual property litigation."· Do you
`
`12· ·see that?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· I do see that.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· And in this sentence are you
`
`15· ·referring to work that you have performed
`
`16· ·for EcoFactor with respect to EcoFactor
`
`17· ·patents?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· That would be a portion of what
`
`19· ·I'm referring to there.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· What other work are you referring
`
`21· ·to there?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· A few years back I was also
`
`23· ·involved in a matter of Nest -- sorry,
`
`24· ·Allure v. Nest.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· And I'm sorry, could you please
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·spell the first word for the record?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· A-l-l-u-r-e.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· And did you offer expert
`
`·5· ·testimony in that matter?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· I did.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And could you describe, generally
`
`·8· ·to me, what that matter was and what kind
`
`·9· ·of testimony you offered?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· I provided testimony regarding
`
`11· ·validity of the asserted patents and it was
`
`12· ·a patent litigation.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· And what party did you provide
`
`14· ·testimony on behalf of?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· I was testifying on behalf of
`
`16· ·Allure.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Are there any other intellectual
`
`18· ·property litigations that you are referring
`
`19· ·to here in this sentence?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· That specifically address Smart
`
`21· ·thermostats, I don't think so.· Of course,
`
`22· ·when we're talking about the EcoFactor
`
`23· ·actions, there's a multiplicity of matters,
`
`24· ·as you know.· So I'm not restricting it
`
`25· ·just to this particular IPR.
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Understood.· I am aware that
`
`·3· ·there are a number.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Do you have an understanding of
`
`·5· · what the relevant timeframe for
`
`·6· · determining obviousness is in this
`
`·7· · particular matter?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· It would be in the timeframe of
`
`·9· ·2007.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· And is it okay with you if I
`
`11· ·refer to the timeframe up to and just
`
`12· ·before that time as the "relevant
`
`13· ·timeframe" in this context?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· That's fine.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· Could you please turn to
`
`16· ·paragraph 26 of your declaration.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· Okay.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· In this paragraph you're
`
`19· ·discussing your opinions regarding the
`
`20· ·level of ordinary skill in the art; is that
`
`21· ·correct?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· And so do you see here maybe like
`
`24· ·halfway down the paragraph there's a
`
`25· ·sentence that starts: "It is also based on
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · the claim construction ruling in the ITC
`
`·3· · investigation," and that sentence goes on
`
`·4· · but it refers to the 1258 ITC
`
`·5· · investigation.· Do you see that?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· So are you saying here that your
`
`·8· · understanding is based on the claim
`
`·9· · construction ruling in that ITC
`
`10· · investigation?
`
`11· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`12· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· As the sentence
`
`13· ·says, it is also based.· I guess perhaps it
`
`14· ·might be better worded it's informed by that
`
`15· ·ruling.· It's not exclusively based on that
`
`16· ·ruling but certainly that ruling affirms my
`
`17· ·position.
`
`18· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`19· · · · · Q.· And how specifically does it
`
`20· · inform your position?
`
`21· · · · · A.· Well, the ALJ in that matter
`
`22· · embraced a definition of a POSITA under the
`
`23· · same -- that is consistent with what I
`
`24· · said.
`
`25· · · · · Q.· So had you reviewed this claim
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·construction ruling before you developed
`
`·3· ·your opinion regarding the level of
`
`·4· ·ordinary skill in the art?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· No, I don't think so.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· I'd like to talk a little bit
`
`·7· ·about the '983 patent, which is the patent
`
`·8· ·that is at issue in this matter.· And I put
`
`·9· ·the '983 patent in the chat, so if at any
`
`10· ·point you need to take a look at the '983
`
`11· ·patent, please feel free to do so.
`
`12· · · · ·A.· Okay.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· Is it your opinion that the '983
`
`14· ·patent is not directed to commercial
`
`15· ·buildings?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· It is clear that the '983 patent
`
`17· ·is more strongly directed to residential
`
`18· ·and small commercial in terms of just the
`
`19· ·nature and context of the descriptions. I
`
`20· ·wouldn't say that it's exclusive of
`
`21· ·commercial applications.· But it's clear
`
`22· ·that in terms of the context, that it
`
`23· ·really is more directed towards simple HVAC
`
`24· ·control systems as contrasted with, say, a
`
`25· ·large commercial building energy management
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · system.
`
`·3· · · · · Q.· Are you generally familiar with
`
`·4· · the claims of the '983 patent, and in
`
`·5· · particular the independent claims?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· I am generally familiar with the
`
`·7· · claims, yes.
`
`·8· · · · · Q.· In your opinion, do the claims
`
`·9· · that the '983 patent not cover systems and
`
`10· · methods that are used in commercial
`
`11· · buildings?
`
`12· · · · (Reporter clarification.)
`
`13· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`14· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`15· · · · · Q.· Let me repeat the question to
`
`16· · make sure it's clear for the record.
`
`17· · · · · · · In your opinion, do the claims of
`
`18· · ·the '983 patent not cover systems and
`
`19· · ·methods that are used in commercial
`
`20· · ·buildings?
`
`21· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`22· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· As I said a minute
`
`23· ·ago, certainly the emphasis is on the smaller
`
`24· ·systems that would have, for example, a very
`
`25· ·limited amount of HVAC equipment associated
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·with those systems.· It would -- the systems
`
`·3· ·and methods are not necessarily oriented
`
`·4· ·towards say -- like I said, a large
`
`·5· ·commercial office building that may have
`
`·6· ·dozens of pieces of HVAC equipment all tied
`
`·7· ·together and coordinated.· It's a much
`
`·8· ·smaller scale system.· But, as I said, it's
`
`·9· ·not exclusive -- it doesn't ever say that it
`
`10· ·can't be applied in any kind of commercial
`
`11· ·application.· It's just a matter of emphasis
`
`12· ·as opposed to a precisely defined skill.
`
`13· · · · · · · MS. LAUGHTON:· Can we go off the
`
`14· ·record for a second.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · (Recess had.)
`
`16· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`17· · · · · Q.· Before we went off the record,
`
`18· · Dr. Palmer, I was asking you about the '983
`
`19· · patent.· Do you recall that?
`
`20· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`21· · · · · Q.· And so, in your opinion, do the
`
`22· · claims of the '983 patent cover systems and
`
`23· · methods that would be used in large-scale
`
`24· · structures?
`
`25· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It's certainly not
`
`·3· ·directed towards the large-scale systems, but
`
`·4· ·it's not -- it doesn't exclude application to
`
`Page 26
`
`·5· ·such systems.
`
`·6· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`·7· · · · · Q.· Same question regarding
`
`·8· · implementations where there are multiple
`
`·9· · buildings?
`
`10· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`11· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It describes a
`
`12· ·system that is applicable to one building but
`
`13· ·that can be scaled up to integrate with other
`
`14· ·similar systems.· But the system itself
`
`15· ·doesn't describe the scaled-up version that
`
`16· ·includes multiple buildings.· It is
`
`17· ·applicable to a single HVAC system.
`
`18· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`19· · · · · Q.· If there were a system having
`
`20· · multiple buildings, in your opinion, would
`
`21· · the claims of the '983 patent cover such a
`
`22· · system or implementation?
`
`23· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`24· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That would depend
`
`25· ·on -- it would depend on a lot of things.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·It's a hypothetical that doesn't have enough
`
`Page 27
`
`·3· ·detail for me to evaluate.
`
`·4· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`·5· · · · · Q.· My question is really kind of
`
`·6· · directed to whether that fact would exclude
`
`·7· · it from the scope of the claims. I
`
`·8· · understand that the other elements of the
`
`·9· · claim would need to be met, but if there
`
`10· · were an implementation where there were
`
`11· · multiple buildings, would that fact alone
`
`12· · cause you to believe that that system or
`
`13· · method would not fall within the scope of
`
`14· · the claims of the '983 patent?
`
`15· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The system comprises
`
`17· ·an HVAC system.· There are certainly
`
`18· ·applications in the context of the EcoFactor
`
`19· ·system that -- where multiple HVAC systems
`
`20· ·are tied to and communicate with a single
`
`21· ·processer, but the -- they are separate HVAC
`
`22· ·systems that are tied to the overall larger
`
`23· ·picture of the -- the overall combined
`
`24· ·processing with the central control.
`
`25· · · · · · · But each building in that context
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·has its own HVAC system.· And so the '983
`
`·3· ·patent is applicable to the individual
`
`·4· ·buildings, but I wouldn't say that it's
`
`·5· ·necessarily applicable to a collection of
`
`·6· ·buildings that each have their own HVAC
`
`·7· ·system.
`
`·8· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`·9· · · · · Q.· If you could please turn to your
`
`10· · declaration, starting at paragraph 17.
`
`11· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`12· · · · · Q.· Do you see here you have a
`
`13· · section entitled "Legal Principles"?
`
`14· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· Do you believe you understood
`
`16· · this section entitled "Legal Principles"?
`
`17· · · · · A.· I believe I understood it, yes.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· Does this section reflect your
`
`19· · understanding of the law that you applied
`
`20· · in your declaration?
`
`21· · · · · A.· It does.
`
`22· · · · · Q.· And if you could please turn to
`
`23· · what is paragraph 22 in this section.
`
`24· · · · · A.· I'm there.
`
`25· · · · · Q.· And please take a moment to just
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · read this paragraph to yourself.
`
`·3· · · · · A.· Okay.
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· Is it your understanding that in
`
`·5· · the context of obviousness, each limitation
`
`·6· · of the claim at issue must be explicitly
`
`·7· · disclosed in the prior art?
`
`·8· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·9· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The obvious -- under
`
`10· ·an obviousness assertion, it is not necessary
`
`11· ·that each limitation be expressly disclosed,
`
`12· ·per se.
`
`13· · BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`
`14· · · · · Q.· If you could please turn to what
`
`15· · is paragraph 15 of your declaration.
`
`16· · · · · A.· Okay.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· Do you see here that you are
`
`18· · quoting a portion of the '983 patent?
`
`19· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· And do you see that there's an
`
`21· · ellipse in the middle of that quote?
`
`22· · · · · A.· Yes.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· Have you read the complete
`
`24· · portion of the '983 patent quoted here?
`
`25· · · · · A.· Of course.
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· And so you quote the portion
`
`·3· ·stating: "It would, therefore, be desirable
`
`·4· ·for a thermostat system using only a single
`
`·5· ·temperature sensor."
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· And that's the last sentence of
`
`·9· ·the quote here, correct?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· I do see that, yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· And you state:· "It would,
`
`12· ·therefore, be desirable for a thermostat
`
`13· ·system using only a single temperature
`
`14· ·sensor to take such suboptimal
`
`15· ·installations into account and to correct
`
`16· ·for the erroneous readings generated by
`
`17· ·such thermostats."
`
`18· · · · · · ·This sentence of the '983 patent
`
`19· · is discussing an internal temperature
`
`20· · sensor; is that correct?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· It is referring to a sensor that
`
`22· ·is integral to the thermostat system.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· And when you say "integral to the
`
`24· ·thermostat system," are you referring to a
`
`25· ·sensor that would sense the indoor
`
`
`
`Page 31
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·temperature in a structure?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· I believe so.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· And at the beginning of this
`
`·5· ·paragraph, you state:· "The '983 patent
`
`·6· ·recognized the advantages of automatically
`
`·7· ·incorporating information about external
`
`·8· ·weather conditions, such as outside
`
`·9· ·temperature, but also recognize that using
`
`10· ·additional external temperature sensors
`
`11· ·would be suboptimal and not desirable."
`
`12· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· Where, specifically, does the
`
`15· ·'983 patent recognize that using additional
`
`16· ·external temperature sensors would be
`
`17· ·suboptimal and not desirable?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· I can double-check that.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Sure.· And if you have to take a
`
`20· ·look at the '983 patent to answer that
`
`21· ·question, please feel free to do so.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· (Witness reviews document.)
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· I can, perhaps, ask a different
`
`24· ·question.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· Okay.
`
`
`
`Page 32
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· So does the '983 patent recognize
`
`·3· ·that using additional external temperature
`
`·4· ·sensors would be suboptimal and not
`
`·5· ·desirable in that portion of the '983
`
`·6· ·patent that you cite there, which is column
`
`·7· ·2, lines 7 to 53?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· It refers to the -- being optimal
`
`·9· ·to have a single sensor.· And in -- excuse
`
`10· ·me -- read in context, in the previous
`
`11· ·sentence, it does say, you know, it -- you
`
`12· ·know, the problems that it described in the
`
`13· ·previous paragraph can be reduced or
`
`14· ·eliminated through the use of additional
`
`15· ·remote temperature sensors connected to the
`
`16· ·thermostat's control circuitry.
`
`17· · · · · · ·You know, then it goes on to
`
`18· · explain some of the disadvantages.
`
`19· · · · · · ·So in that context, it is saying
`
`20· · that it was -- that it would be optimal to
`
`21· · just use a single sensor, and from -- you
`
`22· · know, in context, it's clear that the
`
`23· · other information could be derived from
`
`24· · other methods.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· When it says to use a single
`
`
`
`Page 33
`
`·1· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
`
`·2· ·sensor there, it is referring to a single
`
`·3· ·indoor temperature sensor; is that correct?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· It says a single sensor.
`
`·5· ·Obviously, if it's going to use a single
`
`·6· ·sensor, that would be the sensor that would
`
`·7· ·be indoors where the thermostat is.· But
`
`·8· ·it's not saying that that's the only sensor
`
`·9· ·that would be important.· But in the
`
`10· ·context of optimizing, yes, it's trying to
`
`11· ·eliminate more than one temperature sensor.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Whether those additional sensors
`
`13· · would be indoors or outdoors, I think it
`
`14· · leaves it open.· But, obviously, in this
`
`15· · context, the single sensor would be an
`
`16· · indoor sensor.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· And if you could please turn to
`
`18· ·what is paragraph 37 of your declaration.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· Did you say 77?
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· Sorry.· 37.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· 37.· I'm there.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· You state here in this pa
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