·1
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`·2· ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·3· · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`·4· · · · · · · · · IPR2020-01504
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`·5· · · · · · · Patent No. 8,498,753
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`·6
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`·7· ·------------------------------)
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`·8· ·GOOGLE, LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · ·Petitioner,
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`10· · · ·v.
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`11· ·ECOFACTOR, INC.,
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`12· · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
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`13· ·------------------------------)
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`14
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`15
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`16· · · · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
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`17· · · · · · · JOHN A. PALMER, Ph.D.
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`18
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`19· · · · · · · · August 27, 2021
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·Reported by:
`· · ·Linda Salzman
`25· ·JOB NO. 198525
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`GOOGLE 1024
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`·2· · · · · · · · · August 27, 2021
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`·2· ·REMOTE APPEARANCES:
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`·3· · · · · · · · · 10:00 a.m. (MDT)
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`·4· ·SMITH BALUCH
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`·5· ·Attorneys for Petitioner, Google LLC
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`·6· · · · ·Remote videotaped deposition of
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`·6· · · · ·1100 Alma Street
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`·7· ·JOHN A. PALMER, the witness herein,
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`·7· · · · ·Menlo Park, CA 94025
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`·8· ·held remotely pursuant to Notice,
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`·8· ·BY:· ·MATTHEW SMITH, ESQ.
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`·9· ·before Linda Salzman, a Notary
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`10· ·Public of the State of New York.
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`13· ·RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
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`14· ·Attorneys for Patent Owner, EcoFactor, Inc.
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`15· · · · ·800 Maine Avenue SW
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`16· · · · ·Washington, DC 20024
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`17· ·BY:· ·JONATHAN LINK, ESQ.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2
`·3· ·J O H N· A.· P A L M E R,
`·4· · · ·called as a witness, having been duly
`·5· · · ·sworn by a Notary Public, was examined
`·6· · · ·and testified as follows:
`·7
`·8· ·EXAMINATION BY
`·9· ·MR. SMITH:
`10· · · ·Q.· · This is Matt Smith for the
`11· ·petitioner, Google, from the firm of Smith
`12· ·Baluch LLP.
`13· · · · · · ·Dr. Palmer, thanks for coming in
`14· ·this morning on to Zoom.· I don't know if
`15· ·you can access the Zoom chat.· I have
`16· ·dropped four exhibits in there.· It's just
`17· ·the '753 patent, your declaration and the
`18· ·two pieces of prior art.
`19· · · · · · ·Can you see those?
`20· · · ·A.· · I clicked on chat.· Nothing came
`21· ·up.
`22· · · ·Q.· · So you just have an empty chat
`23· ·box now?
`24· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`25· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Do you have copies of
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·those documents?
`·3· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Do you want to refer to
`·5· ·those?
`·6· · · ·A.· · I'm fine with that.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Do you have notes on them
`·8· ·or anything like that?
`·9· · · ·A.· · A few.
`10· · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`11· · · · · · ·(Off-the-record discussion
`12· · · ·held.)
`13· · · ·A.· · There we go.· They're coming up
`14· ·now.
`15· · · ·Q.· · So thank you for coming in,
`16· ·Dr. Palmer, and this is a deposition being
`17· ·conducted by Zoom.· I take it you now have
`18· ·copies of the exhibits I've uploaded.· You
`19· ·should see Exhibit 1001, the '753 patent.
`20· ·Exhibit 2002, a Declaration of John
`21· ·Palmer.
`22· · · · · · ·I'm sorry.· I think I uploaded
`23· ·the wrong ones.· I did.
`24· · · · · · ·So you should have Exhibit 1001,
`25· ·the '753 patent.· Exhibit 1006, the
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`Page 6
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·Wedekind prior art.· Exhibit 1008, the
`·3· ·Ehlers' prior art.· And Exhibit 2002,
`·4· ·which is a copy of your declaration.
`·5· · · · · · ·Do you have those now?
`·6· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Good.
`·8· · · · · · ·So first of all, just to clarify
`·9· ·this, you are the John Palmer who authored
`10· ·a declaration for this particular matter,
`11· ·right?
`12· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`13· · · ·Q.· · Great.· And you've been deposed,
`14· ·I take, it many times before?
`15· · · ·A.· · I have.
`16· · · ·Q.· · And including for on behalf of
`17· ·EcoFactor, correct?
`18· · · ·A.· · I have been deposed on behalf of
`19· ·EcoFactor previously.
`20· · · ·Q.· · Great.· And about how many times
`21· ·have you been subject to deposition as an
`22· ·expert for EcoFactor?
`23· · · ·A.· · I've only got one instance that
`24· ·I'm remembering off the top of my head for
`25· ·a deposition.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· But you're familiar with
`·3· ·the rules of deposition.· I will ask
`·4· ·questions.· Jonathan may object.· You need
`·5· ·to answer the question unless he tells you
`·6· ·not to answer the question on the basis of
`·7· ·privilege.· If you don't understand
`·8· ·something, ask.
`·9· · · · · · ·That's all familiar to you,
`10· ·right?
`11· · · ·A.· · Of course.
`12· · · ·Q.· · Great.· Is there any reason you
`13· ·can't testify accurately today?
`14· · · ·A.· · No.
`15· · · ·Q.· · Without getting into specifics,
`16· ·any medical or other issues that would
`17· ·interfere with the testimony, require
`18· ·frequent breaks, that sort of thing?
`19· · · ·A.· · No.
`20· · · ·Q.· · Did you prepare for the
`21· ·deposition today?
`22· · · ·A.· · I did.
`23· · · ·Q.· · Great.· And without getting into
`24· ·specifics of what you may have said to
`25· ·attorneys, what basically did you do to
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`Page 8
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·prepare?
`·3· · · ·A.· · I did have a meeting with
`·4· ·Mr. Link, as well as reviewing my
`·5· ·declaration, the prior art references that
`·6· ·were put forward by Mr. Shah, and
`·7· ·Mr. Shah's deposition and declaration. I
`·8· ·think I covered everything.
`·9· · · ·Q.· · I'm going to refer to
`10· ·Exhibit 2002, which I've uploaded to the
`11· ·chat, which is called the Declaration of
`12· ·John A. Palmer, Ph.D.
`13· · · · · · ·This is the declaration you're
`14· ·referring to, right?
`15· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`16· · · ·Q.· · And you signed it under oath?
`17· · · ·A.· · I did.
`18· · · ·Q.· · Sorry to ask, but I do have to
`19· ·check this.
`20· · · · · · ·Did you read it and understand
`21· ·it thoroughly prior to signing it?
`22· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`23· · · ·Q.· · I would assume so.
`24· · · · · · ·Now, the declaration relates to
`25· ·Patent No. 8,498,753, correct?
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·A.· · Yes, that is correct.
`·3· · · ·Q.· · And you refer to that as the
`·4· ·'753 patent in your declaration.· Can we
`·5· ·do that here?
`·6· · · ·A.· · That's absolutely fine.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Great.· And after you signed
`·8· ·this declaration, I understand there's
`·9· ·typically a wait, you know, some period of
`10· ·time before something happens in these
`11· ·cases.
`12· · · · · · ·After that point in time, about
`13· ·how much time did you spend preparing for
`14· ·this deposition?
`15· · · ·A.· · Maybe 15 hours.
`16· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And did you look at
`17· ·the '753 patent again?
`18· · · ·A.· · I did.
`19· · · ·Q.· · You feel pretty familiar with
`20· ·the contents of that patent?
`21· · · ·A.· · I do.
`22· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Did you review the two
`23· ·main pieces of prior art, Wedekind and
`24· ·Ehlers?
`25· · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·Q.· · And, Dr. Palmer, have you ever
`·3· ·in your career done an analysis to
`·4· ·determine whether or not a product
`·5· ·infringes a patent claim?
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond
`·7· · · ·the scope.
`·8· · · ·A.· · Yes, I have.
`·9· · · ·Q.· · So I read the description of
`10· ·your background in the declaration, and it
`11· ·seems like you are a specialist in
`12· ·electric power engineering; is that
`13· ·correct?
`14· · · ·A.· · That definitely is a major
`15· ·portion of my education and experience.
`16· · · ·Q.· · So you're probably pretty
`17· ·familiar with concepts like utility power
`18· ·generation, correct?
`19· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`20· · · ·Q.· · Now, your exposure to concepts
`21· ·relating to HVAC control systems was not
`22· ·as clear to me from your declaration.· I'm
`23· ·wondering if you could tell me how you
`24· ·became familiar with HVAC control systems
`25· ·in the course of your career.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·A.· · Sure.· In my role as a forensic
`·3· ·engineer, failure analysis, I have looked
`·4· ·at -- at a wide variety of HVAC systems,
`·5· ·generally those that have been involved in
`·6· ·failures.· But I've looked at both the
`·7· ·control and the operation and the energy
`·8· ·management elements of HVAC systems in
`·9· ·that role as a forensic engineer.
`10· · · ·Q.· · And the role as a forensic
`11· ·engineer is, just correct me if I am
`12· ·mischaracterizing this, you are a
`13· ·consultant who is brought in to analyze
`14· ·system failures; is that correct?
`15· · · ·A.· · That is a fair summary.
`16· · · ·Q.· · And are you mainly doing that
`17· ·for products liability cases or what's the
`18· ·capacity in which you do that?
`19· · · ·A.· · I do work for both insurance
`20· ·companies and attorneys.· And so they are,
`21· ·I wouldn't say necessarily product
`22· ·liability cases, but cases -- situations
`23· ·that may become product liability cases,
`24· ·or they may be, you know, workmanship of
`25· ·those who have worked on it and so forth;
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·but basically subrogation would be the
`·3· ·most frequent situation where I've been
`·4· ·involved in evaluating HVAC systems.
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Subrogation basically being two
`·6· ·insurance companies fighting it out to see
`·7· ·who's liable?
`·8· · · ·A.· · Two or more.
`·9· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Fair enough.
`10· · · · · · ·Now, is it primarily through
`11· ·these engagements that you have learned
`12· ·about the subject matter of HVAC control
`13· ·systems?· Or is there something else I
`14· ·should know about from your background?
`15· · · ·A.· · I'm sorry?
`16· · · ·Q.· · Or is there something else I
`17· ·should know about from your background?
`18· · · ·A.· · No.· I think that's a fair
`19· ·summary.· That's where I've had, you know,
`20· ·the most introductory experience.
`21· ·Certainly I've actually worked on my own
`22· ·HVAC systems and replaced thermostats and
`23· ·done a variety of things where I've got
`24· ·hands-on experience on a personal level.
`25· · · · · · ·But in terms of, you know, my
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·motivation to dig into HVAC systems and
`·3· ·understand how they work, understand how
`·4· ·their thermostats work and so forth, that
`·5· ·generally has been associated with my
`·6· ·forensic failure analysis efforts.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · And about how many consulting
`·8· ·engagements would you say you've had that
`·9· ·required you to, as you put it, delve into
`10· ·how HVAC systems work?
`11· · · ·A.· · I frankly don't have a specific
`12· ·recollection.· I'd say probably somewhere
`13· ·between 10 and 30, but, you know, it's
`14· ·something I've been doing for a couple of
`15· ·decades and putting a more refined number
`16· ·on it would be difficult.
`17· · · ·Q.· · Would you be able to put a
`18· ·number on how many hours you have spent
`19· ·looking into how HVAC systems and HVAC
`20· ·control systems work?
`21· · · ·A.· · I don't think I could.
`22· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever held a position
`23· ·where your primary responsibility was
`24· ·designing or building HVAC control
`25· ·systems?
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·A.· · I have not.
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever worked on the
`·4· ·design of an HVAC control system?
`·5· · · ·A.· · Not on the design.
`·6· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever held a position
`·7· ·where your primary responsibility was
`·8· ·researching HVAC control systems?
`·9· · · ·A.· · I guess I wouldn't say that was
`10· ·ever a primary responsibility.· Certainly
`11· ·it's -- as I said, it's been an element of
`12· ·my experience in interacting with HVAC
`13· ·systems and including their control
`14· ·systems.· But I would never say that it
`15· ·was my primary job responsibility.
`16· ·Perhaps in some situations it was a
`17· ·primary responsibility under a specific
`18· ·assignment but not a job -- job position
`19· ·responsibility.
`20· · · ·Q.· · Understood.
`21· · · · · · ·You said that you worked on, in
`22· ·a personal capacity, doing things like
`23· ·changing I guess temperature sensors in
`24· ·your thermostat --
`25· · · ·A.· · I've actually replaced
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·thermostats.
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Oh, replaced thermostats.· Okay.
`·4· · · · · · ·Now, have you ever installed or
`·5· ·serviced an HVAC control system in a
`·6· ·professional capacity?
`·7· · · ·A.· · No.
`·8· · · ·Q.· · Are you a named inventor on any
`·9· ·patents relating to HVAC control systems?
`10· · · ·A.· · Not related to HVAC control
`11· ·systems.
`12· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever taught any courses
`13· ·that dealt with the subject of HVAC
`14· ·control systems?
`15· · · ·A.· · I have taught courses where we
`16· ·talked about control systems in general,
`17· ·and specifically their application and
`18· ·some of the caveats and nuances associated
`19· ·with ensuring safe operation, and that has
`20· ·included some, you know, temperature
`21· ·control systems to a certain extent.· But
`22· ·in terms of teaching a course on HVAC
`23· ·control systems, no, I have not done that.
`24· · · ·Q.· · Would this be sort of the course
`25· ·on controls that one might get as an
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·undergraduate in engineering?
`·3· · · ·A.· · It would not.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · No?· So what specifically was
`·5· ·that?
`·6· · · ·A.· · The course is a -- the title of
`·7· ·the course is Forensic Engineering and
`·8· ·Failure -- Electrical Forensic Engineering
`·9· ·and Failure Analysis.· And so, in that
`10· ·context, I discuss failures in general,
`11· ·talk about control systems and how they
`12· ·relate to failures.· And I have included
`13· ·in some of those some case studies
`14· ·associated with temperature control
`15· ·systems and so forth.
`16· · · ·Q.· · How does a temperature control
`17· ·system relate to an HVAC control system in
`18· ·your mind?
`19· · · ·A.· · Well, an HVAC system is a
`20· ·specific type of temperature control
`21· ·system that is focused on ensuring the
`22· ·ambient temperature inside the house is at
`23· ·a desired temperature.· And so -- or I say
`24· ·house.· House or commercial facility or
`25· ·industrial building.· A structure I guess
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·might be a little more general term.
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Understood.
`·4· · · ·A.· · And so the principles apply the
`·5· ·same as, for example, a large commercial
`·6· ·paint oven is going to also have
`·7· ·temperature controls.· It will have some
`·8· ·added features and interlocks between
`·9· ·safeties on gas and temperature and door
`10· ·open and various things.· But the basic
`11· ·principles of thermostatic control apply
`12· ·whether the application is a structure or
`13· ·a particular appliance.
`14· · · ·Q.· · Can you explain basically how a
`15· ·thermostat acts to control the temperature
`16· ·within a structure?
`17· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Vague.
`18· · · ·A.· · I'm sorry.· Can you ask that
`19· ·question again?
`20· · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`21· · · · · · ·Can you explain basically how a
`22· ·thermostat acts to control a temperature
`23· ·within a structure?
`24· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Same objection.
`25· · · ·A.· · Within a structure, a
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·thermostat, in its simplest form, the
`·3· ·thermostat monitors temperature.· In the
`·4· ·older versions, it was a bi-metallic
`·5· ·sensing device.· In the newer versions,
`·6· ·they use thermocouples or resistance
`·7· ·thermal devices.
`·8· · · · · · ·And the temperature is
`·9· ·monitored.· If the temperature is below a
`10· ·desired setpoint, if it's in a heating
`11· ·mode and the temperature drops below a
`12· ·desired setpoint, then the thermostat
`13· ·closes contacts to signal to the HVAC
`14· ·equipment -- typically a furnace, might be
`15· ·a boiler, et cetera; could even be base
`16· ·board heater.
`17· · · · · · ·But whichever heating device you
`18· ·have, when the temperature drops below the
`19· ·threshold, then the unit is energized
`20· ·using a -- typically using contacts.· And
`21· ·a signal goes out to the device and, as
`22· ·the heat is generated, then, of course,
`23· ·that raises the temperature, the ambient
`24· ·temperature in the room or the building.
`25· · · · · · ·And then, when the
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·temperature -- the thermostat exceeds the
`·3· ·threshold, then the signal goes to the
`·4· ·equipment -- or the signal to the
`·5· ·equipment is terminated would probably be
`·6· ·the best way to put it.
`·7· · · · · · ·But, at any rate, depending on
`·8· ·the nature of the communication, it may be
`·9· ·a signal going to or at the end of a
`10· ·signal that communicates effectively to
`11· ·the device to cease heating.· A similar
`12· ·phenomenon for the air conditioning
`13· ·system.
`14· · · · · · ·Of course, there's coupled into
`15· ·that you've got the blower coming on and
`16· ·you've got the time before or after the
`17· ·heating cycle that the blower continues.
`18· ·You know, there is a lot of -- a lot more
`19· ·elements to it but that's kind of the
`20· ·basic summary.
`21· · · ·Q.· · Understood.· Thank you for that
`22· ·summary.
`23· · · · · · ·You mentioned a desired
`24· ·temperature in a thermostat.· Is that
`25· ·called a setpoint?
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·A.· · That would be called a setpoint,
`·3· ·yes.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · You've also mentioned thresholds
`·5· ·in the context of a temperature falling
`·6· ·below a threshold or exceeding a
`·7· ·threshold.
`·8· · · · · · ·Are those thresholds the same as
`·9· ·the setpoint, do you know?
`10· · · ·A.· · Generally, the threshold is
`11· ·adjacent to -- it's close to, but not
`12· ·exactly equal to, the setpoint.· So that
`13· ·you end up having a -- what we call a dead
`14· ·band between the maximum temperature
`15· ·threshold and the minimum temperature
`16· ·threshold around the setpoint on the
`17· ·thermostat.
`18· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any feeling for how
`19· ·large such dead bands are typically in
`20· ·residential settings?
`21· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection to form.
`22· · · ·A.· · In residential settings, what
`23· ·I've seen, is they're typically plus or
`24· ·minus -- typically, from what I've seen,
`25· ·it's a dead band of 2 degrees, which would
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·be plus or minus 1 degree around the
`·3· ·setpoint.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · In your declaration in
`·5· ·paragraph 16 -- feel free to open it if
`·6· ·you want, but I can just read it to you,
`·7· ·the relevant passage.
`·8· · · · · · ·You state, "Obviousness may be
`·9· ·found where the differences between the
`10· ·subject matter sought to be patented and
`11· ·the prior art are such that the subject
`12· ·matter as a whole would have been obvious
`13· ·at the time the invention was made to a
`14· ·person having ordinary skill in the art to
`15· ·which said subject matter pertains."
`16· · · · · · ·Does that sound familiar to you?
`17· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`18· · · ·Q.· · Do you have an understanding
`19· ·about the relevant timeframe for
`20· ·determining obviousness in this case?
`21· · · ·A.· · That should be around 2009,
`22· ·which I understand is the priority date on
`23· ·the patent at issue.
`24· · · ·Q.· · If you look at the '753 patent
`25· ·on the cover page it says a provisional
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·was filed, I think, on May 8 of 2009; is
`·3· ·that correct?
`·4· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·5· · · ·Q.· · So instead of sort of repeating
`·6· ·around 2009 or up to 2009, can I call that
`·7· ·the relevant timeframe as being the
`·8· ·timeframe sort of right up to and before
`·9· ·2009?
`10· · · ·A.· · That would be fine.
`11· · · ·Q.· · Now, the description you gave of
`12· ·thermostat, would that have been valid in
`13· ·the relevant timeframe as well?· Is that
`14· ·basically how thermostats worked back
`15· ·then?
`16· · · ·A.· · In general, yes.
`17· · · ·Q.· · Can you think of any exceptions,
`18· ·anything you would have to correct if we
`19· ·went back to the relevant timeframe?
`20· · · ·A.· · Again, there are going to be
`21· ·details, but I don't think anything that I
`22· ·described was inaccurate.· Just that
`23· ·there's more details depending on the
`24· ·specific application.
`25· · · ·Q.· · Sure.· That makes a lot of
`
`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·sense.
`·3· · · · · · ·Let me ask you a little bit
`·4· ·about utilities since you are an electric
`·5· ·power engineer.
`·6· · · · · · ·In the relevant timeframe, did
`·7· ·energy providers sometimes have varying
`·8· ·rate structures?
`·9· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`10· · · ·Q.· · And can you basically explain
`11· ·what varying rate structures are?
`12· · · ·A.· · Varying rate structures occur
`13· ·when a utility for various reasons,
`14· ·typically due to trying to manage the
`15· ·loading on their infrastructure, gives
`16· ·incentives to users or customers to use
`17· ·power at specific times and disincentives
`18· ·to use at other times so as to
`19· ·redistribute the -- over time the energy
`20· ·consumption that a customer would use.
`21· · · · · · ·In a more simplistic
`22· ·explanation, it means when the, for
`23· ·example, the electric utility is heavily
`24· ·loaded, then they may charge a
`25· ·significantly higher rate for electrical
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·energy than they do when there is less
`·3· ·energy being needed on the grid.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · And in the relevant timeframe,
`·5· ·were those incentives used for business
`·6· ·customers or consumer residential
`·7· ·customers or both?
`·8· · · ·A.· · Generally, they are business
`·9· ·customers, although I have seen some
`10· ·limited applications of those kinds of
`11· ·rate structures being used for residential
`12· ·users.
`13· · · ·Q.· · Do those kinds of incentives
`14· ·work?
`15· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Vague.
`16· · · ·A.· · They work.· How effectively they
`17· ·work depends on a lot of things; but they
`18· ·do have, to a certain extent, the desired
`19· ·effect for the utility.
`20· · · ·Q.· · The desired effect would have
`21· ·been that users of electricity either use
`22· ·less or use it at a more -- at a better
`23· ·time for the utility, correct?
`24· · · ·A.· · That is correct.
`25· · · ·Q.· · Are you familiar with
`
`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·multi-stage climate control systems?
`·3· · · ·A.· · I am familiar with them.
`·4· · · ·Q.· · And can you describe what they
`·5· ·are?
`·6· · · ·A.· · In general, they're climate
`·7· ·control systems that will generally
`·8· ·operate at the first stage for fine
`·9· ·adjustments in temperature.· But if a
`10· ·greater degree of temperature is needed or
`11· ·if a greater degree of temperature change
`12· ·is needed or if the ambient outside
`13· ·temperature is too stressful, if you will,
`14· ·on the ability of the first stage to
`15· ·maintain that desired temperature, then a
`16· ·second or even a third stage may be used
`17· ·to enhance the either air conditioning or
`18· ·heating.
`19· · · ·Q.· · Let's just take the heating
`20· ·case.
`21· · · · · · ·Do you have an understanding as
`22· ·to why a climate control systems might be
`23· ·built with multiple stages as opposed to,
`24· ·say, just building more capacity in the
`25· ·first stage or something like that?
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·A.· · It ties into the -- by tuning
`·3· ·the first stage to the typical load, as
`·4· ·opposed to the maximum load, they're able
`·5· ·to fine tune it to better efficiencies
`·6· ·specific to the base load need.· But since
`·7· ·that best deficiency at the base load is
`·8· ·not adequate to meet the higher loading or
`·9· ·more extreme temperature transitions, then
`10· ·additional stages are provided that are
`11· ·understandably -- that are typically less
`12· ·efficient than the first stage.
`13· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any knowledge of
`14· ·what typical stages might have been in
`15· ·terms of their manner of producing heat?
`16· ·I'm talking burning natural gas or
`17· ·resistive heating or something like that.
`18· · · · · · ·What were typical stages in the
`19· ·relevant timeframe for residential heating
`20· ·systems?
`21· · · ·A.· · The ones that I'm aware of would
`22· ·typically use a heat pump and then
`23· ·supplemental electric heat.· When I say
`24· ·"electric heat," I mean resistive heating.
`25· · · ·Q.· · I see.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · · · · ·Do you have a feeling for the
`·3· ·magnitude of the difference in efficiency
`·4· ·you mentioned between the two stages?
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Vague.
`·6· · · ·A.· · It varies widely based on the
`·7· ·appliance and the application.· So in
`·8· ·terms of quantifying it, I don't have any
`·9· ·numbers for you right now.
`10· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's say we have a
`11· ·two-stage heating system.· Does that seem
`12· ·reasonable?
`13· · · ·A.· · We can use that as a basic
`14· ·hypothetical.
`15· · · ·Q.· · Great.· Now, what happens when
`16· ·the second stage is engaged, does the
`17· ·first stage turn off?
`18· · · ·A.· · No.
`19· · · ·Q.· · So is their output added
`20· ·together at that point?
`21· · · ·A.· · Typically.
`22· · · ·Q.· · Is the amount of energy they
`23· ·consume also additive?
`24· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`25· · · ·Q.· · So in a two-stage heating system
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·you would typically have one sort of rate
`·3· ·of heat output, correct?
`·4· · · ·A.· · I'm not sure I understood your
`·5· ·question.
`·6· · · ·Q.· · I guess what I'm wondering is if
`·7· ·the first stage is on -- whether or not
`·8· ·the first stage is on or the first and
`·9· ·second stages are on, you're only going to
`10· ·have one output, correct?
`11· · · ·A.· · That isn't -- it is not correct
`12· ·as I understand your question.
`13· · · ·Q.· · How do you understand the
`14· ·question?
`15· · · ·A.· · Well, if I'm understanding you,
`16· ·then what I'm hearing is that whether one
`17· ·stage is operating or two stages is
`18· ·operating, it's going to provide the same
`19· ·energy output.· Now, that was my inference
`20· ·since you didn't actually say "energy
`21· ·output."· But anyway, I'm not quite sure
`22· ·that that's what you were asking.
`23· · · ·Q.· · No.· Thanks.· It's a helpful
`24· ·clarification.
`25· · · · · · ·By energy output here, do you
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·understand the amount of heat delivered to
`·3· ·the conditioned space?
`·4· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·5· · · ·Q.· · And so when we have the first
`·6· ·stage running, we'll have a certain amount
`·7· ·of heat delivered to the conditioned
`·8· ·space, correct?
`·9· · · ·A.· · Typically.
`10· · · ·Q.· · And when the second stage kicks
`11· ·in, we will have a higher amount of heat
`12· ·delivered to the conditioned space,
`13· ·correct?
`14· · · ·A.· · That would be typical, yes.
`15· · · ·Q.· · Because the amount of heat being
`16· ·delivered from two stages is effectively
`17· ·added together within the confines of the
`18· ·structure, correct?
`19· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`20· · · ·Q.· · Now, in your declaration you
`21· ·talked about the person having ordinary
`22· ·skill in the art.· And I noticed that, so
`23· ·Mr. Shah said a person having ordinary
`24· ·skill in the art would have five years of
`25· ·experience and you said a person having
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·ordinary skill in the art would have two
`·3· ·years of experience.
`·4· · · · · · ·Do you recall that?
`·5· · · ·A.· · I do.
`·6· · · ·Q.· · What was your basis for
`·7· ·disagreeing with Mr. Shah on that -- basis
`·8· ·for coming up with two years of
`·9· ·experience?
`10· · · ·A.· · Generally, it was based on
`11· ·discussions with counsel, as well as my
`12· ·understanding of the, you know, basic
`13· ·experience level of technicians that
`14· ·worked in the industry.
`15· · · ·Q.· · There's two parts to that.
`16· ·Discussions with counsel and your basic
`17· ·understanding of technicians that work in
`18· ·the industry.
`19· · · · · · ·What did counsel say to you that
`20· ·prompted you to choose two years of
`21· ·experience for a person having ordinary
`22· ·skill in the art?
`23· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· I'm going
`24· · · ·to instruct the witness not to answer.
`25· · · ·That's attorney-client communication
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · ·or privileged communication.
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. SMITH:· Okay.· You realize
`·4· · · ·he did say he based his opinion on it?
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· He said he had
`·6· · · ·discussions with counsel and then
`·7· · · ·based it on his experience, so I don't
`·8· · · ·know that he based it on those
`·9· · · ·discussions with counsel.
`10· · · · · · ·MR. SMITH:· That's fine.· The
`11· · · ·record says what it says.
`12· · · ·Q.· · So let's talk about the second
`13· ·aspect of how you formed your opinion on a
`14· ·person having ordinary skill in the art.
`15· · · · · · ·That was your experience with
`16· ·technicians in the field did you say?
`17· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`18· · · ·Q.· · And what specifically is that
`19· ·experience that you're talking about?
`20· · · ·A.· · Contractors that I've hired to
`21· ·maintain the HVAC system at my home and at
`22· ·the office, as well as folks that I've
`23· ·talked to in friendly associations who
`24· ·happen to work in that field.
`25· · · ·Q.· · I see.
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· · · · · · ·So the people who maintain your
`·3· ·HVAC system in your home or office or
`·4· ·friends you talked with in the industry;
`·5· ·is that correct?
`·6· · · ·A.· · Basically, yes.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · I wonder if you could open up
`·8· ·your declaration, which is Exhibit 2002,
`·9· ·to paragraph -- well, beginning at
`10· ·paragraph 11 and running through
`11· ·paragraph 15, you have a background of the
`12· ·'753 patent.· Do you see that?
`13· · · · · · ·So, Dr. Palmer, have you found
`14· ·that section?
`15· · · ·A.· · You said it was the section
`16· ·marked background of the patent?
`17· · · ·Q.· · Yeah.· Paragraph --
`18· · · ·A.· · The '753 patent?
`19· · · ·Q.· · Yes.· Okay.· Great.
`20· · · · · · ·At the end of this section where
`21· ·you describe the '753 patent, in
`22· ·paragraph 15 you say, "The '753 patent
`23· ·describes various embodiments to address
`24· ·the shortcomings of the prior art systems.
`25· ·For example, Figures 8 shows a flow chart
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·of an embodiment."
`·3· · · · · · ·And then that looks like a copy
`·4· ·of Figure 8 of the patent.
`·5· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·6· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Why did you include that figure
`·8· ·here?
`·9· · · ·A.· · Well, it shows an example of
`10· ·what the patent was teaching.· And I
`11· ·frankly, off the top of my head, I can't
`12· ·remember why I chose this figure as
`13· ·opposed to some of the others.· But it was
`14· ·an example that showed how the -- some of
`15· ·the logical, you know, decision-making
`16· ·process in the patent.
`17· · · ·Q.· · As relevant to this case or not?
`18· · · ·A.· · This specific figure doesn't
`19· ·have much in the way of detail pertaining
`20· ·to the actual claims of the patent.
`21· · · ·Q.· · Do you think that Figure 8 and
`22· ·the method it reflects falls within the
`23· ·scope of claim 1 of the '753 patent?
`24· · · ·A.· · Certainly it does include parts
`25· ·of it.· It doesn't lay out all of the
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`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·details of the claim 1, but it makes
`·3· ·reference to calculating or measuring
`·4· ·parameters, such as temperatures, and then
`·5· ·verifying the thermal characteristics and
`·6· ·calculating setpoints and sending those
`·7· ·setpoints to the thermostat.· So it
`·8· ·includes a number of the steps, but it
`·9· ·does not embody everything in the claim.
`10· · · ·Q.· · What in claim 1 of the '753
`11· ·patent do you think is not embodied by the
`12· ·method reflected in Figure 8?
`13· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond
`14· · · ·the scope.
`15· · · ·A.· · The claim is clearly more
`16· ·detailed than this diagram.· And so to
`17· ·say, you know, something isn't embodied in
`18· ·there or whatever, I think would be kind
`19· ·of comparing apples and oranges.· Because
`20· ·the general nature of the flowchart in
`21· ·Figure 8 may include a whole bunch of
`22· ·details that are included in the claim.
`23· ·Just because they're not laid out as
`24· ·calculate rate ramp setpoints, for
`25· ·example, the claim definitely lays out a
`
`·1· · · · · · · John A. Palmer
`·2· ·lot more detail about what goes on within
`·3· ·that rectangle that is shown up in a
`·4· ·single step in Figure 8.
`·5· · · · · · ·So I wouldn't say it's not on
`·6· ·there so much as the detail level is
`·7· ·significantly less on Figure 8 than it is
`·8· ·in the claim.
`·9· · · ·Q.· · Do you think there is a better
`10· ·example method in the '753 patent
`11· ·technical disclosure that would come
`12· ·closer to embodying the elements of
`13· ·claim 1 of the '753 patent?
`14· · · · · · ·MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond
`15· · · ·the scope.
`16· · · ·A.· · I don't remember off the top of
`17· ·my head.· If you would like, I can go back
`18· ·and review the other figures.
`19· · · · · · ·But again, I wouldn't say this
`20· ·doesn't embody the claim.· It just doesn't
`21· ·include all of the details of the claim.
`22· ·And so it's, you know, a