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`·1
`· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2
`· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · ·GOOGLE LLC,· · · · · · · · · ·) Video-recorded
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) deposition of:
`· · · · · Petitioner,· · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) JOHN ARTHUR PALMER,
`· · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) PH.D.
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · ·ECOFACTOR, INC.,· · · · · · · )
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) IPR2022-00473
`· · · · · Patent Owner.· · · · · · )
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Patent No. 8,751,186
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`10
`11
`12· · · · · · January 6, 2023 * 11:00 a.m. MST
`13
`14· · · · · ALL PARTIES APPEARING REMOTELY VIA ZOOM
`15
`· · · · ·Location of deponent:· 30 North Cutler Drive,
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Unit 404
`· · · · · · · · ·North Salt Lake, Utah 841021
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`19· · · · · · ·Reporter:· Kelly Fine-Jensen, RPR
`20· · · · · · · · Videographer:· Ken Miller
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
`·2· FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·3· · · · · · · Elizabeth A. Laughton
`· · · · · · · · SMITH BALUCH, LLP
`·4· · · · · · · Attorney at law
`· · · · · · · · 1100 Alma Street, Suite 109
`·5· · · · · · · Menlo Park, California 94025
`· · · · · · · · Telephone:· (703) 585-8839
`·6· · · · · · · E-mail:· laughton@smithbaluch.com
`·7
`· · FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`·8
`· · · · · · · · Jonathan Link
`·9· · · · · · · RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`· · · · · · · · Attorney at law
`10· · · · · · · 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
`· · · · · · · · Los Angeles, California 90025
`11· · · · · · · Telephone:· (310) 826-7474
`· · · · · · · · E-mail:· jlink@raklaw.com
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
`·2· JOHN ARTHUR PALMER, PH.D.:· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`·3· Examination by Ms. Laughton· · · · · · · · · · · 4
`·4
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`·6· NO.· · · · · · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · ·PAGE
`·7· Exhibit 1001· ·Patent No. 8,751,186 B2,
`· · · · · · · · · ·June 10, 2014, Steinberg
`·8· · · · · · · · ·(previously marked)
`·9· Exhibit 1004· ·Patent No. 2004/0117330 A1,
`· · · · · · · · · ·June 17, 2004, Ehlers
`10· · · · · · · · ·(previously marked)
`11· Exhibit 1005· ·Patent No. US 6,868,293 B1,
`· · · · · · · · · ·March 15, 2005, Schurr
`12· · · · · · · · ·(previously marked)
`13· Exhibit 2009· ·Declaration of John A. Palmer
`· · · · · · · · · ·(previously marked)
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
`·2
`·3· · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The time is 1:00 p.m.
`·4· Mountain Time.
`·5· · · · · · · Today's date is January the 6th, 2023.
`·6· · · · · · · This begins the remote video-conferenced
`·7· deposition of Dr. John Palmer, taken in the matter of
`·8· Google LLC versus EcoFactor, Incorporated.
`·9· · · · · · · My name is Ken Miller.· I'm your remote
`10· videographer today.· The court reporter today is
`11· Kelly Fine-Jensen.· We are representing Esquire
`12· Deposition Solutions.
`13· · · · · · · As a housekeeping note, if you're not
`14· speaking, please mute your audio.· And, of course,
`15· remember to unmute when you are ready to speak.
`16· · · · · · · Will counsel present please identify
`17· themselves and state whom you represent, starting
`18· with the taking attorney.
`19· · · · · · · MS. LAUGHTON:· This is Elizabeth Laughton,
`20· from the law firm of Smith Baluch, LLC, representing
`21· the petitioner, Google.
`22· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· This is Jonathan Link, from the
`23· law firm of Russ August & Kabat, on behalf of the
`24· patent owner, EcoFactor, Inc.
`25· · · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The court reporter will
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`GOOGLE 1023
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`Page 5
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`·1· now swear in the witness.
`·2· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Mr. Palmer, can I have you
`·3· raise your right-hand, please.
`·4
`·5· · · · · · · · · ·JOHN ARTHUR PALMER,
`·6· · · called as a witness, being first duly sworn,
`·7· · · · · was examined and testified as follows:
`·8
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`10· BY MS. LAUGHTON:
`11· · · · Q.· · All right.· Good morning, Dr. Palmer.
`12· · · · · · · Just for the record, I just want to note
`13· that it is, in fact, 11:00 a.m. Mountain Time; is
`14· that correct?
`15· · · · A.· · That is correct.
`16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Awesome.
`17· · · · · · · And also for the record, this is a
`18· deposition in IPR2022-00473.· And this is a remote
`19· deposition that is being conducted via Zoom.
`20· · · · · · · Dr. Palmer, can you please state your name
`21· for the record.
`22· · · · A.· · I am John Arthur Palmer.
`23· · · · Q.· · And you've been deposed before; is that
`24· correct?
`25· · · · A.· · I have.
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`Page 6
`·1· · · · Q.· · About how many times have you been deposed
`·2· before?
`·3· · · · A.· · Between 80 and 90.
`·4· · · · Q.· · So, you're familiar with the rules of
`·5· deposition generally; is that fair?
`·6· · · · A.· · That is fair.
`·7· · · · Q.· · Is there any reason that you can't testify
`·8· accurately today?
`·9· · · · A.· · No.
`10· · · · Q.· · Do you have any medical or any other
`11· issues that would interfere today with your
`12· testimony?
`13· · · · A.· · No.
`14· · · · Q.· · Do you have any documents with you here
`15· today?
`16· · · · A.· · Only what you posted in the chat.
`17· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And just for the record, what
`18· Dr. Palmer is referring to, that I posted in the
`19· chat, are Exhibit 1001, Exhibit 2009, Exhibit 1004,
`20· and Exhibit 1005, which have already been premarked
`21· in this proceeding.
`22· · · · · · · And, so, just to confirm, are those the
`23· only documents that you have with you at this time?
`24· · · · A.· · The only ones I have open.
`25· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Great.
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · · · And just to let you know, if at any point
`·2· in time you need to refer to these documents in my
`·3· questioning, please feel free to do so.
`·4· · · · · · · And if you feel that you need any other
`·5· documents in order to answer my questions, please
`·6· just let me know as well.
`·7· · · · A.· · Fair enough.
`·8· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Great.
`·9· · · · · · · Have you prepared for today's deposition?
`10· · · · A.· · Yes.
`11· · · · Q.· · What did you do to prepare?
`12· · · · A.· · I reread my report and had a meeting with
`13· counsel.
`14· · · · Q.· · And did you meet with Mr. Link?
`15· · · · A.· · I did.
`16· · · · Q.· · And about how long did you meet to prepare
`17· with Mr. Link?
`18· · · · A.· · The phone call was maybe 45 minutes long.
`19· · · · Q.· · And could I ask you to please look at --
`20· well, actually, wait.· Let me just back up a second.
`21· · · · · · · Is there anything else that you did to
`22· prepare?
`23· · · · A.· · I glanced through Mr. Shah's declaration
`24· as well.· Didn't dig in very deep.· But, I did look
`25· at it.· Of course, you know, the original preparation
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`Page 8
`·1· of my declaration was all preparatory to this chat as
`·2· well.· But, I'm assuming you're talking about
`·3· subsequent to the filing of the report?
`·4· · · · Q.· · That's correct.
`·5· · · · · · · Can I please take you to -- can I please
`·6· ask you to take a look at Exhibit 2009, which is
`·7· entitled the Declaration of John A, Palmer Ph.D.
`·8· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`·9· · · · A.· · I do.
`10· · · · Q.· · Are you the John A. Palmer Ph.D. listed
`11· here?
`12· · · · A.· · I am.
`13· · · · Q.· · And this is your declaration?
`14· · · · A.· · It is.
`15· · · · Q.· · And did you sign this declaration under
`16· oath?
`17· · · · A.· · I did.
`18· · · · Q.· · Did you read this declaration prior to
`19· signing it?
`20· · · · A.· · Yes.
`21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And this declaration relates to
`22· U.S. Patent number 8,751,186; is that correct?
`23· · · · A.· · Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· · And you refer to this patent in your
`25· declaration as the '186 patent.
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`·1· · · · · · · Is that something that we can do today
`·2· here as well?
`·3· · · · A.· · Of course.
`·4· · · · Q.· · And, so, just to confirm, after you signed
`·5· the final version of this declaration, about how many
`·6· hours, total, do you think you spent preparing for
`·7· today's deposition?
`·8· · · · A.· · Between three and four.
`·9· · · · Q.· · And during the course of that preparation,
`10· did you review the '186 patent again?
`11· · · · A.· · I did not.
`12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Would you state that you're
`13· generally familiar with the '186 patent and how it
`14· works?
`15· · · · A.· · Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· · Did you review the Ehlers '330 reference
`17· in preparation for today's deposition?
`18· · · · A.· · Not specifically, no.
`19· · · · Q.· · Would you say that you're generally
`20· familiar with that reference?
`21· · · · A.· · I am.
`22· · · · Q.· · And did you review the Schurr reference,
`23· S-C-H-U-R-R reference, in preparation for today's
`24· deposition?
`25· · · · A.· · Not specifically, no.
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`·1· · · · Q.· · Would you say that you're generally
`·2· familiar with that reference?
`·3· · · · A.· · I am.
`·4· · · · Q.· · Do you have an understanding about the
`·5· relevant time frame for determining obviousness in
`·6· this case?
`·7· · · · A.· · I do.
`·8· · · · Q.· · And what is that understanding?
`·9· · · · A.· · The patent claims priority to September of
`10· 2007.· So, 2007 would be the relevant time frame.
`11· · · · Q.· · And is it okay with you if I refer to the
`12· time frame before September 17th, 2007 as the
`13· relevant time frame?
`14· · · · A.· · That would be fine.
`15· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And, so, you see that you have
`16· Exhibit 1001, which is the '186 patent in front of
`17· you.
`18· · · · · · · And please feel free to refer to that at
`19· any point if you need to.
`20· · · · · · · Are you generally familiar with the claims
`21· of the '186 patent?
`22· · · · A.· · I am generally familiar with the claims of
`23· the '186 patent.
`24· · · · Q.· · In your opinion, do the claims of the '186
`25· patent cover systems and/or methods that are used in
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`·1· commercial structures?
`·2· · · · A.· · They can be used in commercial structures.
`·3· · · · Q.· · And what about in large-scale structures?
`·4· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond the scope of
`·5· his report.
`·6· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I -- I could see the
`·7· potential for application in large-scale structures.
`·8· But, the -- the claims of the -- or the specification
`·9· for the patent, '186 patent, does not seem to make
`10· that a major focus of the -- of the invention.
`11· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· If there were a system
`12· or a method that is used in a large-scale structure,
`13· but it otherwise met or practiced the limitations of
`14· the claims of the '186 patent, would that in and of
`15· itself preclude it from falling within the claims of
`16· the '186 patent in your opinion?
`17· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond the scope of
`18· his report.
`19· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Ask me that question again
`20· if you would, please.
`21· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Sure.· So, if there
`22· were a system or a method that was used in a
`23· large-scale structure and that system or method
`24· otherwise practiced all of the elements of the claims
`25· of the '186 patent, would the fact that it was used
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`·1· in a large-scale structure alone keep it from
`·2· satisfying the claims of the '186 patent in your
`·3· opinion?
`·4· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Beyond the scope of
`·5· his report.
`·6· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I would say not necessarily.
`·7· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Could a system which
`·8· controls power consumers, such as elevators,
`·9· escalators, lighting, or other equipment, meet the
`10· claims of the '186 patent in your opinion?
`11· · · · A.· · That's, I -- I guess I would say, an
`12· incomplete hypothetical.· In theory you could add
`13· additional control features to the -- to the scope of
`14· the '186 patent.· But, it certainly wouldn't
`15· necessarily -- I mean, it's just an incomplete
`16· hypothetical.· It would take a lot more information
`17· than what you've just laid out.
`18· · · · Q.· · Sure.· Let me ask a different question
`19· then.
`20· · · · · · · So, if there were a system or a method
`21· that controlled power consumers, such as elevators,
`22· escalators, lighting, and other equipment, but it
`23· otherwise satisfied the claims of the '186 patent,
`24· would the fact that it had those other components and
`25· features keep it from meeting the claims of the '186
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`·1· patent in your opinion?
`·2· · · · A.· · Not necessarily.
`·3· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And the claims of the '186 patent
`·4· recite a server computer; is that correct?
`·5· · · · A.· · Yes.
`·6· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And if you could please turn to
`·7· Figure 2 of the '186 patent.
`·8· · · · · · · Just let me know when you have that in
`·9· front of you.
`10· · · · A.· · I'm there.
`11· · · · Q.· · Looking at Figure 2 of the '186 patent, in
`12· your opinion is server 106a an example of the server
`13· that is referred to in the claims of the '186 patent?
`14· · · · A.· · Yes.· In this particular embodiment, that
`15· would appear to be the case.
`16· · · · Q.· · And same question for server 106b, would
`17· that also be a server that's an example of a server
`18· that's recited in the claims in the '186 patent?
`19· · · · A.· · I would assume so.· I can reference the
`20· specification -- relevant portion of the
`21· specification if you'd like me to answer with a
`22· little more specificity.· But, it does appear that --
`23· for this embodiment, that that's the intent of the
`24· depiction.
`25· · · · Q.· · What is a demand reduction service
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`·1· provider?
`·2· · · · A.· · A demand reduction service provider?
`·3· · · · Q.· · Yes.· And if you need to, that language is
`·4· referenced in the '186 patent.· If you need to take a
`·5· look at that, that's referenced at column 7, lines 30
`·6· to 39.
`·7· · · · A.· · Thank you.
`·8· · · · Q.· · Would you like me to re-ask my question?
`·9· · · · A.· · Yes, please.
`10· · · · Q.· · Sure.· So, having taken a look at the '186
`11· patent at column 7, lines 30 to 39, what is a demand
`12· reduction service provider?
`13· · · · A.· · A demand reduction service provider is
`14· also sometimes referred to as a demand aggregator.
`15· But, the -- it's an entity that interacts with
`16· customers and interacts with the utility such that
`17· the utility makes a request or requires a reduction
`18· in electricity demand that is communicated to the
`19· demand reduction service provider.· And that demand
`20· reduction service provider implements that reduction
`21· by interfacing with their customers.
`22· · · · Q.· · And looking back at Figure 2 of the '186
`23· patent, what is a demand reduction service server?
`24· · · · A.· · I can look at the specific wording in the
`25· specification on that.· Okay.· The -- looking in
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`·1· column 7, the description in paragraph two doesn't
`·2· expressly define that as I'm reading it.
`·3· · · · · · · But, it would -- based on context, it's
`·4· pretty clear that it's a server that is a -- that's
`·5· probably owned and operated by the demand reduction
`·6· service provider or owned by a utility that is
`·7· performing the same functions that would be doing
`·8· the -- the necessary analysis of communications in
`·9· order to implement a demand reduction.
`10· · · · Q.· · Were there demand reduction service
`11· providers in the relevant time frame?
`12· · · · A.· · I am not personally familiar with a -- any
`13· particular demand reduction service providers per se.
`14· But, I certainly know that demand reduction was a --
`15· was a practice that was being implemented.· And it
`16· would not be a surprise to me if there were, in fact,
`17· demand reduction service providers in that time
`18· frame.· But, I can't name one off the top of my head.
`19· · · · Q.· · If you could please turn to Figures 6A and
`20· 6B of the '186 patent.
`21· · · · A.· · Okay.
`22· · · · Q.· · And just for your reference, if you need
`23· to take a look at it, the relevant text describing
`24· those figures, some of that starts at column 8, line
`25· 31.
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`·1· · · · A.· · Thank you.
`·2· · · · Q.· · And, so, taking a look at Figures 6A and
`·3· 6B, in these figures the HVAC system is off; is that
`·4· correct?
`·5· · · · A.· · That is correct.
`·6· · · · Q.· · So, these figures depict changes in inside
`·7· temperature over time when the HVAC system is off; is
`·8· that correct?
`·9· · · · A.· · That is correct.
`10· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And if you could please take a look
`11· at the '186 patent starting at column 8, line 63.
`12· · · · · · · And if you just want to go ahead and read
`13· from 8, 63 to column 9, line 9 before I ask my next
`14· question.· Just let me know when you're done with
`15· that.
`16· · · · A.· · Okay.· I'm finished reading it.
`17· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Great.
`18· · · · · · · Do you see here that the '186 patent
`19· states that the server logs temperature readings, as
`20· an example, once per minute?
`21· · · · A.· · Yes.
`22· · · · Q.· · And do you see here that it also states
`23· that that data can be used to calculate what it
`24· refers to as an effective thermal mass for a
`25· structure?
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`·1· · · · A.· · Yes.
`·2· · · · Q.· · Do you agree that some of those
`·3· temperature readings that it refers to will be logged
`·4· when the system is off?
`·5· · · · A.· · Yes.
`·6· · · · Q.· · How long, in your opinion, would it take
`·7· the '186 patent systems to gather sufficient
`·8· temperature data to be able to predict at any given
`·9· time on any given day the rate at which inside
`10· temperature should change for given inside and
`11· outside temperatures?
`12· · · · A.· · That's going to depend on a number of
`13· things.
`14· · · · Q.· · In general, about how long do you think it
`15· would take such data to be gathered?· And feel free
`16· to give a range if you would like.
`17· · · · A.· · Well, I expect that it depends on the --
`18· the implementation and in particular the learning
`19· algorithms that would be involved.· And the precision
`20· that would be desired.· As most learning algorithms
`21· are implemented, they -- the longer the learning
`22· process, the more precision that one can develop.
`23· · · · · · · And, so, there's -- the nature of your
`24· question is overbroad and I'm not able to give a
`25· particular answer because there's too many factors
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`·1· that are outside of -- of -- of my knowledge.
`·2· · · · Q.· · Do the claims of the '186 patent require
`·3· any particular level of precision or any particular
`·4· learning algorithm?
`·5· · · · A.· · They do not.
`·6· · · · Q.· · Does the '186 patent describe how to
`·7· achieve any particular level of precision or does it
`·8· describe any particular learning algorithm?
`·9· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Compound.
`10· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· I'll just ask those
`11· sequentially and get rid of that objection.
`12· · · · · · · Does the '186 patent describe any
`13· particular level of precision that needs to be
`14· achieved?
`15· · · · A.· · Not specifically, no.
`16· · · · Q.· · Does it describe how to achieve any
`17· particular level of precision?
`18· · · · A.· · Not specifically, no.
`19· · · · Q.· · Does it describe any particular learning
`20· algorithms?
`21· · · · A.· · Not explicitly.
`22· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And you see there in that section
`23· that we just referenced that the '186 patent says
`24· that -- the '186 patent states that the system can
`25· predict at any given time on any given date a rate at
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`·1· which inside temperature should change for given
`·2· inside and outside temperatures.
`·3· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`·4· · · · A.· · Yes.
`·5· · · · Q.· · Does the '186 patent describe specifically
`·6· how that prediction is performed?
`·7· · · · A.· · Not precisely.· But, it does give general
`·8· information about that.
`·9· · · · Q.· · What kind of general information does it
`10· give?
`11· · · · A.· · It discusses what factors are considered.
`12· It discusses the -- the overall approach to the -- to
`13· the problem.
`14· · · · Q.· · Does it discuss specifically how to use
`15· those factors to arrive at the prediction?
`16· · · · A.· · Not specifically.
`17· · · · Q.· · Does the '186 patent specify any algorithm
`18· for that prediction?
`19· · · · A.· · That's certainly contained within the --
`20· you know, for example, Figure 11 talks about it.
`21· Figure 12 talks about it.· Figure 13 talks about it.
`22· And then, you know, of course, the supporting text
`23· for those would also include some of that
`24· information.
`25· · · · Q.· · Can you point me to the algorithms that it
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`·1· specifies specifically?
`·2· · · · A.· · Well, for example, in Figure 11 it says
`·3· to, you know, collect the outside climate data and
`·4· input the duty cycle data and input the prior inside
`·5· temperature data, input the building/user profile,
`·6· input the current inside temperature, and calculate
`·7· the thermal mass index, which would be -- as the
`·8· supporting material emphasizes, that would include
`·9· the calculation of -- I'm sorry.· Which -- which
`10· parameter were we talking about?· A predicted rate of
`11· change?
`12· · · · Q.· · Correct.
`13· · · · A.· · Yes.· So, that would be included in the
`14· thermal mass index calculation as discussed in the
`15· body of the specification.
`16· · · · Q.· · So, I see here what you've pointed me to
`17· is a description of the various inputs that can be
`18· used in the calculation.· And then here, at what's
`19· labeled Box 1112, it says, "Calculate Thermal Mass
`20· Index."
`21· · · · · · · Does it specify how to calculate that
`22· thermal mass index?
`23· · · · A.· · Not specifically, no.
`24· · · · Q.· · And, so, are there any other algorithms,
`25· in your opinion, that the '186 describes for
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`Page 21
`·1· performing that calculation?· If so, could you point
`·2· me to them?
`·3· · · · A.· · Not that I'm prepared to discuss at this
`·4· point in time.
`·5· · · · Q.· · So, you're not aware of any other
`·6· particular algorithms in the '186 patent for how to
`·7· predict the rate of change of inside temperature for
`·8· given inside and outside temperatures?
`·9· · · · A.· · That wasn't specifically addressed in my
`10· report.· And -- and it wasn't addressed in Mr. Shah's
`11· report.· So, I didn't address it in rebuttal to
`12· Mr. Shah's report.· So, at this point, I'm not
`13· prepared to answer that question.
`14· · · · Q.· · So, you didn't consider how the '186
`15· patent describes how to calculate predicted rates of
`16· change in determining -- in arriving at your opinions
`17· in this case?
`18· · · · A.· · Not specifically.
`19· · · · Q.· · And do you see here in -- at column 8,
`20· line 67, to column 9, line 2, do you see there that
`21· the '186 patent refers to what it calls the effective
`22· thermal mass of a structure?
`23· · · · A.· · Yes.
`24· · · · Q.· · In your opinion, would a person of
`25· ordinary skill in the art reading the '186 patent
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`Page 22
`·1· know how to calculate what the '186 patent describes
`·2· as the effective thermal mass of a structure?
`·3· · · · A.· · Well, this sentence that you're referring
`·4· to expressly states what that effective thermal mass
`·5· is.· And that's the speed with which the temperature
`·6· inside a given building would change.· So, as -- as
`·7· it is used by the -- in the '186 patent, it is
`·8· defined as the speed with which the temperature
`·9· inside a given building will change in response to
`10· changes in outside temperature and differences
`11· between inside and outside temperatures.· That --
`12· that is a calculation that is fairly straightforward
`13· and easily performed by a -- one of ordinary skill in
`14· the art.
`15· · · · Q.· · And if you could please take a look at
`16· what we've been referring to in this proceeding as
`17· claim -- Claim Limitation 1e.
`18· · · · · · · And in particular, that limitation refers
`19· to the one or more server computers which are
`20· configured to calculate one or more predicted rates
`21· of change in temperature.· And it goes on.· But, just
`22· to orient you as to what limitation I'm asking about.
`23· · · · A.· · Okay.
`24· · · · Q.· · Do you see that?
`25· · · · A.· · I do.
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`Page 23
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`·1· · · · Q.· · So, in your opinion, if a system
`·2· calculates that a predicted speed, a temperature,
`·3· inside the first location will change in response to
`·4· changes in outside temperature when the HVAC system
`·5· is off, would that meet Claim Limitation 1e?
`·6· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Incomplete
`·7· hypothetical.
`·8· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Can you ask me that question
`·9· again, please?
`10· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Sure.· Do you see that
`11· Claim Limitation 1e refers to calculating a predicted
`12· rate of change which predicts the speed a temperature
`13· inside the first location will change in response to
`14· changes in outside temperature?· Do you see that?
`15· · · · A.· · Yes.
`16· · · · Q.· · In your opinion, if a system calculated a
`17· predicted speed, a temperature, inside the first
`18· location will change in response to changes in
`19· outside temperature when the HVAC system is off,
`20· would that meet Claim Limitation 1e or not?
`21· · · · · · · MR. LINK:· Objection.· Incomplete
`22· hypothetical.
`23· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Probably not.
`24· · · · Q.· · (By Ms. Laughton)· Why not?
`25· · · · A.· · Because the predicted rate of change, as
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`Page 24
`·1· referenced in 1e, is -- has its antecedent in 1d,
`·2· which says that the predictive rates of change in
`·3· temperature are calculated based on the status of the
`·4· HVAC system and based on these other parameters.
`·5· · · · · · · If the status is exclusively off, then I
`·6· don't think that takes into consideration the
`·7· predictive rate of change as defined in 1d.
`·8· · · · Q.· · So, in your opinion, if the status of the
`·9· HVAC system is off, then the predicted rate of the
`10· change is -- rate of change is not based on the
`11· status of the HVAC system?
`12· · · · A.· · No.· That's -- that's not what I'm saying.
`13· And I apologize if that was the -- the -- what I
`14· communicated.
`15· · · · · · · What I intended to say is that the status,
`16· whether it's on or off, is part of that calculated
`17· rate of change.
`18· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So, what if the status is off, is
`19· that based on the status of the HVAC system?
`20· · · · A.· · The -- the predicted rate of change, if
`21· it's calculated based on a status of the -- the HVAC
`22· system being in an off state, that would be a
`23· predicted rate of change.
`24· · · · Q.· · And, so, if there were a system that
`25· calculated a predicted rate of change based on the
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`Page 25
`·1· status of the HVAC system when the HVAC is off, would
`·2· that meet Claim Element 1e?
`·3· · · · A.· · If it only did the calculation when the
`·4· status was off, then it would not meet the element of
`·5· 1e because 1e requires that -- that the status be
`·6· part of that calculation.· And, so, if it's always
`·7· off, then it's not part of the calculation.· It's
`·8· a -- a permanent condition.
`·9· · · · Q.· · So, if something is a permanent condition,
`10· in your opinion, then that precludes it from being a
`11· factor that can be incorporated into this calculation
`12· in 1e?
`13· · · · A.· · I -- that's -- that's way overbroad
`14· compared to what I actually said.· So, I -- I don't
`15· think I can necessarily endorse your -- your
`16· statement.
`17· · · · Q.· · So, in your opinion, for something to be
`18· based on the status of the HVAC system here, the HVAC
`19· system would both have to be on and off at various
`20· times?
`21· · · · A.· · Correct.· Because otherwise the
`22· presence -- the existence of that status is not
`23· relevant.
`24· · · · Q.· · Why is it not relevant?
`25· · · · A.· · If it's neither -- if it's -- if it's
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`·1· never on, then -- and -- and it's always off, then
`·2· there is no basis on which to make the prediction
`·3· based on the status.
`·4· · · · Q.· · Does the temperature in a house change in
`·5· a different manner when a system is on versus when
`·6· it's off?
`·7· · · · A.· · Of course.
`·8· · · · Q.· · So, the HVAC system being on and the HVAC
`·9· system being off describe different conditions, don't
`10· they?
`11· · · · A.· · Yes.
`12· · · · Q.· · And, so, in your opinion, if the status of
`13· the HVAC system is off, then a predicted rate of
`14· change is not based on the status of the HVAC system?
`15· · · · A.· · No.· That's not what I said.
`16· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Can you help me understand?· I'm
`17· trying to understand where this is coming from in the
`18· claim language.· So, if you can help me with that,
`19· please?
`20· · · · A.· · Okay.· Here's -- the -- the claim -- what
`21· I -- I'm trying to clarify is the distinction between
`22· what you describe as a system that only does the
`23· predictive rate of change when the system is off
`24· versus doing a predictive rate of change as defined
`25· by 1e, which takes as its antecedent 1d, the
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`Page 27
`·1· predictive rate of change, which is dependant on the
`·2· status of the HVAC system.· If you have a system that
`·3· is always off or in which the predictive rate of
`·4· change is only confined to a situation where the
`·5· status is off, then it would not be consistent with
`·6· the construction, as I'm reading it.
`·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Thank you.
`·8· · · · · · · If you could please turn to what is
`·9· paragraph 26 of your declaration in this matter,
`10· which is Exhibit 2009.
`11· · · · A.· · Okay.
`12· · · · Q.· · And you've provided opinions relating to a
`13· number of different EcoFactor patents; is that
`14· correct?
`15· · · · A.· · It is correct.
`16· · · · Q.· · When did you first arrive at your opinion
`17· regarding a person of ordinary skill in the art with
`18· respect to the EcoFactor patents?
`19· · · · A.· · It's been awhile.· A couple of years ago.
`20· · · · Q.· · A coupe of years ago.· Okay.
`21· · · · · · · And has that opinion ever changed over
`22· time?
`23· · · · A.· · I -- I guess when it was -- when -- when
`24· the ITC concurred with it, it definitely reinforced
`25· it.· But, my opinion was -- was the same before that.
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`Page 28
`·1· · · · Q.· · And if you could please turn to what's
`·2· paragraph 62 of your declaration.
`·3· · · · A.· · Okay.
`·4· · · · Q.· · What do you mean by the statement:
`·5· "Ehlers '330 is directed toward energy usage at a
`·6· single customer site 1.04"?
`·7· · · · A.· · Just what it says.· The -- the site --
`·8· there is -- there is an effort to control the energy
`·9· usage for that particular customer.
`10· · · · Q.· · So, in your opinion, Ehlers '330 then does
`11· not disclose a system where there are multiple
`12· different customer sites that are being controlled by
`13· a utility or another entity?
`14· · · · A.· · Rather the implementation is on a
`15· customer-by-customer basis.· And that's not to say
`16· that -- that more than one customer couldn't be using
`17· the system.· Rather, the system is focused on
`18· characterizing the particular location, the
`19· particular characteristics of a single customer
`20· facility.· And based on the characterization and
`21· information received from the utility, the decisions
`22· are made at the customer level.
`23· · · · Q.· · Do you agree that Ehlers '330 describes
`24· systems where multiple different customer sites are
`25· being controlled by the utility or other entity?
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`Page 29
`·1· · · · A.· · It does describe a system that -- where
`·2· you can have multiple customers that are all
`·3· receiving information, such as pricing information or
`·4· demand reduction requests, from the utility.
`·5· · · · Q.· · And if you could take a look at page 35 of
`·6· your declaration.
`·7· · · · · · · Do you see there that you've reproduced
`·8· Figure 3d from Ehlers '330?
`·9· · · · A.· · I do.
`10· · · · Q.· · Does this Figure 3d show that it is over
`11· 90 degrees Fahrenheit inside the structure at any
`12· point?
`13· · · · A.· · No.· This does not reflect -- if you read
`14· the supporting documentation -- or, the supporting
`15· material in -- in the specification, it shows -- what
`16· it says it shows is an illustration of thermal gain.
`17· It does not expressly say how this plot is intended
`18· to reflect that.· It shows on the vertical axis, it's
`19· labeled Indoor Setpoint.· And on the horizontal axis,
`20· it shows temperature.· And there is definitely some
`21· ambiguity in the description by -- in the Ehlers '330
`22· description as to how to interpret it.· But, there's
`23· nothing on here that is even suggestive of a
`24· temperature or a temperature setpoint in excess of
`25· 80 degrees.
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`Page 30
`·1· · · · Q.· · And I think -- I think you just might have
`·2· misspoken.· I think you said that the horizontal axis
`·3· shows temperature.· You mean the horizontal axis
`·4· shows time; is that correct?
`·5· · · · A.· · That is correct.· And if I misspoke, I
`·6·