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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`HEWLETT PACKARD ENTERPRISE )
`CO., ARUBA NETWORKS, LLC, )
`APPLE INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, ) No: IPR2022-00426
` )
` vs. ) U.S. PATENT NO.
` ) 8,761, 804 B2
`BILLJCO LLC, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_______________________________)
`
` ZOOM DEPOSITION OF DR. DARRELL D.E. LONG
` (All parties appearing remotely.)
` SEPTEMBER 29, 2022
`
`MAGNA LEGAL SERVICES
`866-624-6221
`www.MagnaLS.com
`REPORTED BY: CHRISTINA M. LOPEZ, CSR NO. 13048
`FILE NO.: 875415
`
`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 1 of 6
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`HEWLETT PACKARD ENTERPRISE )
`CO., ARUBA NETWORKS, LLC, )
`APPLE INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, ) No: IPR2022-00426
` )
` vs. ) U.S. PATENT NO.
` ) 8,761, 804 B2
`BILLJCO LLC, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`_______________________________)
`
` ZOOM DEPOSITION OF DR. DARRELL D.E. LONG
` (All parties appearing remotely.)
` SEPTEMBER 29, 2022
`
`MAGNA LEGAL SERVICES
`866-624-6221
`www.MagnaLS.com
`REPORTED BY: CHRISTINA M. LOPEZ, CSR NO. 13048
`FILE NO.: 875415
`
`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 1 of 6
`
`
`
`Page 21
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`I can give you, you know, hundreds of citations and it
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`probably wouldn't be useful here.
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` Q. Okay. All right. So we were talking about
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`Himmelstein.
`
` A. Okay. 10:26:55AM
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` Q. And we'll talk about it in -- in some detail
`
`today, but -- actually, you raised -- you raised a
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`question in my mind a little bit ago. You used the word
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`"beaconing."
`
` A. Okay. 10:27:17AM
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` Q. And you said that -- I think you said that GPS
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`is a form of -- could be considered beaconing.
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` What -- what is -- what does "beaconing" mean?
`
` A. You want -- do you want a legal definition or
`
`an engineer's definition? 10:27:31AM
`
` Q. I'll -- I'll take the engineer's definition,
`
`then I'll take --
`
` A. An engineer's definition is that we have some
`
`kind of transmitter that sends out a signal that's
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`intended to be received. So as opposed to a -- a query 10:27:46AM
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`response type of thing, it just -- it just -- it just
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`transmits a signal either continuously or periodically,
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`or even perhaps with -- according to some random
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`distribution. We can talk about why random
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`distributions would be good. 10:28:08AM
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`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 2 of 6
`
`
`
`Page 22
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` Q. Okay. So that was the engineer's definition?
`
` A. Right.
`
` Q. And you said you differentiated that from a
`
`legal definition?
`
` A. Right. And I leave that to the attorneys 10:28:21AM
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`because I'll tell you what beaconing really is and you
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`guys will say, well, this thing says this or that thing
`
`says that. That's the thing from Markman hearings
`
`(phonetic) as far as I know.
`
` Q. Okay. So as far as you're concerned, a -- a 10:28:35AM
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`person in this art would understand beaconing according
`
`to the engineer's definition you gave me?
`
` A. Absolutely.
`
` Q. How does -- how does a beacon differ from just
`
`a broadcast? 10:28:54AM
`
` A. Well, I suppose it's in the -- first of all,
`
`beacons tend to be somewhat localized. A broadcast is
`
`normally a network term, although we're talking about
`
`radio broadcast. A beacon can be broadcast, but there's
`
`going to be a geograph -- typically, a geographic 10:29:15AM
`
`constraint to that. If you have such as an airport,
`
`right, airports have radio beacons that periodically
`
`transmit and aircraft pick up those beacons and they
`
`know where the airport is. Okay.
`
` GPS sends out its packets, its -- its radio 10:29:39AM
`
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`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 3 of 6
`
`
`
`Page 23
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`signal and receivers pick them up and there's a puricity
`
`to what it transmits. GPS doesn't cover the entire --
`
`each GPS satellite doesn't cover the entire globe, it
`
`covers the area that, you know, the satellite is
`
`visible. 10:29:58AM
`
` So what's -- so what's the question?
`
` Q. My question is, is there a difference between
`
`a broadcast and a beacon?
`
` A. Beacons normally broadcast, but not all
`
`broadcast are beacons. 10:30:22AM
`
` Q. So broadcast would be the broader term and a
`
`beacon is a particular type of broadcast?
`
` A. No. I think you need to view it not as a
`
`subset, but as a -- more of a Venn diagram. You know,
`
`watching -- watching a TV show, a TV in the old days was 10:30:40AM
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`broadcast, but it wasn't intended to be used as a
`
`beacon. Now, you could, of course, use the source of
`
`the radio -- radio energy coming from the TV tower and
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`say, well, that tower is beaconing me.
`
` You know, if Mr. Putin decided to destroy TV 10:30:59AM
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`towers, the -- locating those TV towers would be very
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`easy based on the energy coming off the TV tower. It
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`would be treated as a beacon in that case, but that's
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`not their intended use.
`
` Q. So are you saying that whether something is a 10:31:14AM
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`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 4 of 6
`
`
`
`Page 24
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`beacon or a broadcast depends on its intended use?
`
` A. It -- yeah, reductio ad absurdum, yeah. I
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`mean the sun broadcasts energy, but most people wouldn't
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`consider the sun to be a beacon.
`
` Q. Is there any way in your mind of 10:31:36AM
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`differentiating whether something is -- is a broadcast
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`that is not a beacon?
`
` A. Again, it comes -- it comes down to use. You
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`don't always have to use something, what it was -- what
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`that creator intended it for. So you could have a 10:31:58AM
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`broadcast and you could decide, well, you know what, I'm
`
`going to use that as a beacon.
`
` For example, if you were doing
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`counterintelligence, you're doing -- trying to find the
`
`spy who's transmitting. They're up in an apartment in 10:32:18AM
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`Washington, D.C. or something. You would use standard
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`radio location techniques to kind it. And, you know,
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`people doing the location finding would probably
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`consider the spy broadcasting -- or not even
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`broadcasting, narrowcasting via beacon that they use to 10:32:38AM
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`locate it.
`
` Q. So I'm still confused as to how one would
`
`determine whether a broadcast is a beaconed message or
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`not a beaconed message?
`
` A. You've added a word. 10:33:09AM
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`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 5 of 6
`
`
`
`Page 25
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` Q. Well, I'll rephrase it. I'll rephrase it. I
`
`didn't mean to, you know, change the question.
`
` How -- how would you differentiate whether a
`
`broadcast is a beacon or not a beacon?
`
` A. Well, I think I've already answered the 10:33:29AM
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`question. It depends on the usage. So let's go back --
`
`let's go back to the radio transmitter; okay. The
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`intended use of the radio transmitter is for me to
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`communicate with somebody. Okay. When I got my CB
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`radio, I want to have a conversation. 10:33:47AM
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` Now, somebody who doesn't want that kind of
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`communication to happen or wants to locate the people
`
`communicating would possibly consider their
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`communication a beacon that they can use to locate them.
`
`So it depends on -- it depends on who is asking the 10:34:03AM
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`question and who is -- who's using it.
`
` In terms of -- in terms of physics, there's no
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`difference.
`
` Q. Okay. So I asked you a little bit ago whether
`
`a broadcast was a broader concept and a beacon was a 10:34:31AM
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`subset of that, and you said no, that's not really
`
`accurate and you referenced a Venn diagram, which I
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`assume you mean some broadcast are beacons and some
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`beacons are broadcast, but not all broadcasts are
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`beacons and so forth; is that -- is that fair? 10:34:55AM
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`BILLJCO
`EX2026 - Page 6 of 6
`
`
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