MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` ____________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` ____________
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` APPLE INC.,
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` PETITIONER
`
` V.
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` RFCYBER CORP.,
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` PATENT OWNER
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` IPR2022-00412 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,189,787
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` IPR2022-00413 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,240,009
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` ORAL AND VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ
`
` (Taken February 7, 2023 at 11:02 A.M. CST)
`
`REPORTED BY:Karisa J. Ekenseair, CCR RMR, LS NO. 802
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00413
`Apple EX1045 Page 1
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` ____________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ____________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` PETITIONER
`
` V.
`
` RFCYBER CORP.,
`
` PATENT OWNER
`
` IPR2022-00412 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,189,787
`
` IPR2022-00413 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,240,009
`
` ORAL AND VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ
`
` (Taken February 7, 2023 at 11:02 A.M. CST)
`
`REPORTED BY:Karisa J. Ekenseair, CCR RMR, LS NO. 802
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 2
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` T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
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` PAGE
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`STYLE AND NUMBER.............................. 1
`APPEARANCES................................... 3
`CAPTION....................................... 4
`
`WITNESS: MIGUEL GOMEZ
`EXAMINATION BY MR. HART....................... 5
`EXAMINATION BY MR. OSTLING.................... 64
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`CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER................. 68
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` EXHIBITS
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 3
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` APPEARANCES
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` PAUL R. HART, ESQUIRE
` HUNTER HORTON, ESQUIRE
` KEVIN RONGISH, ESQUIRE
` ERISE IP, P.A.
` 5299 DTC BLVD., SUITE 1340
` GREENWOOD VILLAGE, COLORADO 80111
` 913-777-5600
` PAUL.HART@ERISEIP.COM
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` JACOB OSTLING, ESQUIRE
` FABRICANT LLP
` 411 THEODORE FREMD AVENUE, SUITE 206 SOUTH
` RYE, NEW YORK 10580
` JOSTLING@FABRICANTLLP.COM
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Ryan Gray, Lexitas Technician
`
` * * * * *
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 4
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` CAPTION
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` ANSWERS AND ORAL AND VIDEOCONFERENCE
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` DEPOSITION OF MIGUEL GOMEZ, a witness produced
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` at the request of the Petitioner, taken in the
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` above-styled and numbered cause on the 7th day
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` of February, 2023, before Karisa Ekenseair,
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` Arkansas Supreme Court Certified Court Reporter
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` #802, at 11:02 A.M. CST, via videoconference,
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` pursuant to the agreement hereinafter set forth.
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` * * * * * * * * * *
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 5
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ
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`of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and
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`says in reply to the questions propounded as
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`follows:
`
` * * * * *
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Gomez. To get us
`
`started, can you state your full name for the
`
`record?
`
` A. Miguel Willie Gomez.
`
` Q. Have you been deposed before, Mr. Gomez?
`
` A. I have.
`
` Q. How many times approximately?
`
` A. About 14 times.
`
` Q. Okay. I'll keep the introduction short
`
`and sweet just as a refresher. It's my job to ask
`
`clear questions today. If you don't understand a
`
`question I ask you, if any part of my question is
`
`confusing, please let me know so I can rephrase it
`
`or clarify.
`
` The court reporter can only take down one
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`of us speaking at a time. I will do my best not to
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`speak over you, and I ask that you do your best not
`
`to speak over me so she can get a clear record. If
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 6
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`I do start asking a follow-up question and you have
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`not finished your last answer, just let me know and
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`I'll let you complete your answer.
`
` Is that all clear?
`
` A. Yeah. That's clear.
`
` Q. Okay. Is there any reason, medically or
`
`otherwise, you'd be unable to fully and truthfully
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`answer my questions today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Very good. I'm going to drop two
`
`exhibits into the chat, your two declarations from
`
`the proceedings we're going to be discussing today.
`
` MR. HART: And for the record, this
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` deposition is going to cover two separate IPR
`
` proceedings: IPR2022-00412 that relates to the
`
` '787 patent, and IPR2022-0413 that relates to
`
` the '009 patent.
`
` Is that your understanding, Mr. Gomez?
`
` A. Yes, it is.
`
` Q. Okay. I'll refer to those as the '787
`
`proceeding and the '009 proceeding, if that works
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`for you.
`
` A. That works.
`
` Q. All right. Very good. Can I have you
`
`pull up those two exhibits? They are both
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 7
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`Exhibit 2007 from their respective proceedings. And
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`just let me know when you have those open.
`
` A. I will. Okay. I have them open.
`
` Q. All right. Very good. My first couple
`
`questions are going to refer to paragraphs 34 in
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`each of those declarations. And I'll go ahead and
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`start with the '787 proceeding declaration.
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` In paragraph 34, you provide an overview
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`of the '787 patent and you note, the '787 patent
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`claims methods and systems for providing electronic
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`purses (e-purses) for use in electronic and mobile
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`commerce.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And then turning to paragraph 34 in the
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`'009 proceeding declaration, you provide an overview
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`of the '009 patent?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You state, the invention of the '009
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`patent is generally related to commerce over
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`networks particularly techniques for personalizing a
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`secure element and provisioning an application such
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`as an electronic purse that can be advantageously
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`used in portable devices configured for both
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`electronic commerce, a/k/a e-commerce, and mobile
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`IPR2022-00413
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 8
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`commerce, a/k/a m-commerce.
`
` Did I get that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I want to turn to your background. And I
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`am going to drop your CV into the chat that has been
`
`introduced in both proceedings as 2008. And just
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`for simplicity, I'm going to use the 412 proceeding
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`from the '787 patent IPR for my questioning today.
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`Let me know when you have that CV open.
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` A. All right. I have it open.
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` Q. All right. Very good. On page 2, you
`
`note you received a bachelor's in electrical
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`engineering in 1983; is that correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Have you received any degrees since 1983?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Have you had any formal education since
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`1983?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Pages 3 through 6 in your CV,
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`Exhibit 2008, provides an overview of your
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`engineering experience.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I'd like to ask some questions about your
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 9
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`experience starting with the earliest engineering
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`experience you have listed that dates back to 1983
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`and going through around 2007, it looks like, when
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`you were with ActSolar Inc.
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` Does that time range make sense?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. In that time range, 1983 to 2007,
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`what experience did you have with electronic purses
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`or e-purses?
`
` A. So during that time frame, my focus was on
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`building product and all sorts of different products
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`related to implementation of communications,
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`primarily with protocols and the methods used to
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`exchange data. Back in the early '80s, it was
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`telephony systems. In the '90s, it was for data
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`communications. In the 2000s, I did a lot of
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`security work.
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` And so as far as the -- my background,
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`of -- with protocols and implementing things that
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`are related to the patents, it's pretty extensive.
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` The patents are about protocols and it's
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`for financial services. To the extent that I, you
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`know, understand how those things work, I -- it's in
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`my -- it's certainly in my CV.
`
` Q. And to my question, how about e-purses
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 10
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`specifically? Have you ever worked as a -- in your
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`professional capacity with e-purses?
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` A. Well, to the extent that the e-purses use
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`protocols to exchange the data, like I said, I've
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`got extensive experience designing with protocols
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`and all the different layers and nuances of
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`protocols. And so yes, to the extent it uses the
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`functionality to communicate across a wire securely,
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`I certainly have worked on those things.
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` Q. Have you ever worked on any e-purses
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`specifically?
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` A. So -- so to the extent that an e-purse
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`is -- is a storage device, certainly I have. And a
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`secure storing securely, certainly I have.
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` Q. What e-purses have you worked on?
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` A. Like I said, I've worked on a number of
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`different things related to communications, as well
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`as the storage, and that's what an e-purse really
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`is.
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` Q. But an e-purse specifically, have you
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`worked on anything that other engineers would refer
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`to as specifically as an e-purse?
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` A. So to the extent that it's a storage
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`element for storing a value securely, like I said, I
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`certainly said. The name, you know, changes. I've
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 11
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`worked on all different sorts of storage systems.
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`To the fact that it is storage for an e-purse, I
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`think I certainly have the experience to be able to
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`do that kind of stuff.
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` Q. And I hear what you're saying that
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`you -- you believe you have the experience to
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`discuss these topics.
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` I'm asking very specifically: Have you
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`ever worked on an e-purse?
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` A. To the extent that it requires storage,
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`certainly. To the extent that it requires
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`communications, certainly. To the extent that it
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`requires communications securely, certainly.
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` Q. Let me move on to my next -- next question
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`here: What experience in the 1983 to 2007 range do
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`you have with electronic commerce?
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` A. To the extent that we've been designing
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`data communications for transporting data securely,
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`I have considerable amount of experience. In 2000,
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`I worked on a company called Webstacks that was
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`later sold to Extreme Networks that was a server
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`load balancer that was designed to be able to
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`communicate data securely. Same kind of principle
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`same kind of functionality that you would find in
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`any kind of electronic products as well.
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
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`Page 12
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` Q. Have you ever worked on any systems that
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`were designed specifically to carry electronic
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`commerce?
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` A. To the -- again, to the extent that I've
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`worked on a large variety of different systems that
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`transport data securely, I have worked on all the
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`elements of electronic commerce.
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` Q. But no systems that were specific to
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`electronic commerce?
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` A. Again, these are systems that -- that are
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`using protocols and technologies that I've been
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`working on for a variety of different products.
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` Q. Can you identify any systems you've worked
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`on that another engineer would describe as an
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`electronic commerce system?
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` A. So to the extent, again, that I've been
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`working on protocols and working on storage systems
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`for storing elements securely, I certainly have done
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`a variety -- a large amount of that work.
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` Q. Can you name any specific systems that one
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`in the art would describe as an electronic commerce
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`system?
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` A. I'm sorry, one more time on the question.
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` Q. Sure. Can you name any specific systems
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`you've worked on that another person in the art
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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`would describe as an electronic commerce system?
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` A. Well, again, to the extent that I've
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`worked on a variety of different storage systems and
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`data communications systems and secure systems that
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`use all of these protocols, you know, I've worked
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`on -- on all of the elements that would be part of
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`an electronic commerce system.
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` Q. In the range 1983 to 2007, what experience
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`do you have working with mobile commerce systems?
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` A. So to the extent that I've worked on all
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`of the things that I've mentioned before, I also
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`have a fair amount of radio experience. And I've
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`worked on a number of different radio front-ends and
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`radio cellular communications systems. I've also
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`supported a fair amount of litigation regarding LTE
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`and various other over-the-air wireless
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`communication protocols. I've also worked on Wi-Fi
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`protocols as well.
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` Q. Have you ever worked on any systems that
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`were specifically targeting mobile commerce?
`
` A. Well, to the extent that I've worked on
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`all of these systems using communications, both
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`wired and wirelessly, I'm sure some of them were
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`used for mobile commerce, but I've worked on the
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`elements behind them.
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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` Q. Have you worked on any aspects of those
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`systems that were specific to mobile commerce?
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` A. Like I said, I've worked on all of the
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`systems that the mobile commerce leans on in order
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`to be able to communicate the -- you know, secure
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`elements -- secure data across a network.
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` Q. In your declarations, Exhibits 2007 in
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`each of these proceedings, you've opined at length
`
`about certain smart card technologies and standards.
`
`In the time frame 1983 to 2007, have you had any
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`experience with smart cards specifically?
`
` A. So at -- let me first say that the
`
`exhibits that you were just discussing that I opined
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`on, all of those are protocols specifications. If
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`you look at them carefully -- you don't even have to
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`look at them carefully. They're just protocol
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`descriptions. And like I said, I'm very qualified
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`to be able to opine on that.
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` But I did have a period of time at Philips
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`Semiconductors back in the late '90s where I did
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`actually work on peripherals used for
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`microprocessors. And those -- it did include very
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`early storage elements that some today would be
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`considered to be smart cards.
`
` Q. Were any of those storage elements you
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
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`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`worked on at Philips used for financial transactions
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`at the time?
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` A. At the time they were designed to store
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`data securely.
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` Q. Right. And were they used for financial
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`transactions at the time?
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` A. They may have been. I don't know.
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` Q. Okay. You did not work on any aspects of
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`those storage elements pertaining to financial
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`transactions; is that fair?
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` A. My role at Philips was to be able to
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`design secure systems or storage systems that could
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`be storing data securely, and also to support the
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`microprocessor group that was developing
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`microprocessors for some of these later products.
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`In specific, we were use -- we were designing
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`processors for the handheld computing groups.
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` Q. In the time frame from 1983 to 2007, did
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`you have any experience with GlobalPlatform?
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` A. I did not have any experience with
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`GlobalPlatform per se. But again, like I said,
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`GlobalPlatform's protocol specification, I'm very
`
`familiar with the protocols that would be used
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`within a specification like that.
`
` Q. In that time frame, 1983 to 2007, did you
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
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`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
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`have any direct experience with any other smart
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`card-specific protocols?
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` A. Can you be more specific?
`
` Q. Sure. Protocols that were designed
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`specifically for smart cards.
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` A. Well, like I said, you know, I was working
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`on secure storage at Philips, and I was also working
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`on some of the other peripherals that were used for
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`communicating to other -- to other devices. So to
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`the extent that I used all those protocols,
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`absolutely, was working on those, yes.
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` Q. In the time frame from 1983 to 2007, did
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`you work directly with any protocols that were
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`designed specifically for financial transactions?
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` A. Like I said, all of the protocols that are
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`used in the exhibits are common and fairly
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`straightforward. I've worked on a wide variety of
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`different protocols and have read many, many
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`protocol specifications.
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` I look at the GlobalPlatform and I
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`understand it to be a protocol for transferring
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`secure information, not just financial payments or
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`not just financial data, but a wide variety of
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`things like authorization or storage of other
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`information like medical records.
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` So it's not just the financial
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`specification. It's a wide -- it's a storage
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`element -- it's a secure storage element for a wide
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`variety of types of information.
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` Q. In that 1983 to 2000 [sic] time frame, did
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`you have any direct experience with protocols that
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`were specific to an electronic commerce or mobile
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`commerce?
`
` A. Like I said, I worked on all of the
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`protocols and all of the underlying technologies
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`related to these -- these items.
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` Q. Can you name any specific protocols you
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`worked with that targeted electronic commerce or
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`mobile commerce?
`
` A. Well, again, you know, everything is
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`transported over TCP/IP and everything's transported
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`or -- or at most UDP. But in this case, it would be
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`TCP/IP. So to the extent I've worked on TCP/IP,
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`absolutely.
`
` Q. And what way does TCP/IP target electronic
`
`commerce or mobile commerce? Maybe you didn't
`
`understand my question.
`
` A. So these technologies that I've worked on
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`are the underpinnings of all of the communications
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`that are used throughout the Internet. And I'm very
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`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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`familiar with all of the protocols.
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` Q. If we set aside generic communication
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`protocols that are designed to transport any type of
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`data and focus instead on protocols that are
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`specifically designed for electronic commerce or
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`mobile commerce, have you worked with any of these
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`electronic commerce or mobile commerce protocols?
`
` A. So --
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` MR. OSTLING: Objection. Objection to
`
` form.
`
` THE WITNESS: So you're asking me to
`
` specify a particular protocol, but all of these
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` exhibits that you've -- that I've been provided
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` with lean on the Internet technologies that have
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` been developed in one way or the other, so all
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` of the communications protocols.
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` So we -- you are asking me to specify a
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` particular protocol. That's -- I don't --
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` that -- it's a little bit of a confusing
`
` question.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. In the 1983 to 2007 time frame, did you
`
`have any direct experience with MIFARE emulators?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, I worked on --
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` MR. HART: Repeat the objection.
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` MR. OSTLING: Sorry, Paul, say again.
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` MR. HART: Yeah, what's that basis of the
`
` objection?
`
` MR. OSTLING: The basis for the objection
`
` is that the term MIFARE emulator is vague; it
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` assumes facts not in evidence.
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` MR. HART: You can answer, Mr. Gomez.
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` THE WITNESS: One more time on the
`
` question, please.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Sure. In the time frame from 1983 to
`
`2007, did you have any experience with MIFARE
`
`emulators?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: To the extent that they were
`
` using storage elements and, you know, like I
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` said, I worked at Philips Semiconductors working
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` on a variety of different interfaces for their
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` computing devices. I've looked at the MIFARE
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` specification. And the processors that are used
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` there and the communication interfaces are
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` things that I saw at Philips and worked on.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Did you look at anything related to MIFARE
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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`in the time frame 1983 to 2007?
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` A. I wasn't in that group, so to the extent
`
`that I was supporting them in one way or the other,
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`you know, I was working on peripherals in general.
`
` Q. Can I have you pull up your declaration,
`
`Exhibit 2007, in the '787 patent proceeding? And
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`scroll to paragraph 48, please.
`
` A. Did you say page 48?
`
` Q. I meant paragraph 48. I'm not sure what I
`
`said.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. All right. So paragraphs 47 and 48,
`
`you're discussing the Philips prior art reference
`
`that Apple used in the '787 patent IPR petition; is
`
`that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that's -- you describe it as Philips
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`semiconductor P5CT072 secure dual interface PKI
`
`smart card controller; is that right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In paragraph 48, you state that in your
`
`experience, a data sheet like Philips' would
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`normally only be distributed under an NDA; is that
`
`right?
`
` A. Yeah. That's correct.
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` Q. You were not at Philips at the time this
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`document was created, were you?
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` A. I've got a lot of experience trying to get
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`data sheets out of companies. You know, in the
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`1970s when I was in college, I think data sheets was
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`easy. But then we had the Apple versus
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`AMD -- sorry, the Intel versus AMD wars. And
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`there's a lot of data that was -- made it into the
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`public that Apple -- that Intel was not too happy
`
`with. And that changed the mood -- that changed the
`
`way engineers had to get data sheets.
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` It was difficult because you had to
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`actually get a sales guy to come out to specify
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`exactly what you wanted. Then you had to convince
`
`them you're worthy for him to get you an NDA. So
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`I'm really familiar with how this works. And these
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`kind of data sheets were under NDA.
`
` Q. In paragraph 47, you note that Philips has
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`a revision date of October 2004.
`
` Were you at Philips in October 2004?
`
` A. No. I was not.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge
`
`that this specific document was subject to an NDA?
`
` A. Like I said, my experience is to get
`
`these -- documents of this form require
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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`communicating with the manufacturer directly and
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`ensuring that they were comfortable that you
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`wouldn't spread their information.
`
` So these kind of documents were commonly
`
`under an NDA. And there's nothing here to show me
`
`that this wasn't under NDA. So given my experience,
`
`I would say that this certainly was.
`
` Q. Had you seen this specific document before
`
`Apple filed its IPR?
`
` A. Not this specific one.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any evidence
`
`specifically to this document that suggests it was
`
`subject to an NDA?
`
` A. Like I said, I was an engineer at this
`
`time working on many products. I was at Philips. I
`
`know that Philips did require NDAs as most -- most
`
`of the manufacturers did in that time frame. And so
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`it was common to have to communicate with the
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`manufacture, usually through their sales team, and
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`access the documents securely through them.
`
` Q. All right. Let's move on. I'd like to
`
`talk about Dua, the primary prior art reference
`
`relied upon in Apple's IPR petition. Can I have you
`
`scroll back up to paragraph 41 in your declaration,
`
`Exhibit 2007, in the '787 patent IPR proceeding?
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. All right. So in paragraph 41, you start
`
`out by noting that Dua's system makes use of a
`
`wallet application, including a wallet shell, that
`
`runs on the phone's primary processor.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Dua's wallet application allows users to
`
`conduct financial transactions such as e-commerce
`
`and m-commerce transactions, correct?
`
` A. I'm sorry, one more time on the question.
`
` Q. Sure. Dua's wallet application allows
`
`users to conduct financial transactions such as
`
`e-commerce and m-commerce transactions; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. In paragraph 42 on that same page,
`
`you note that Dua discloses an embodiment where a
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`smart card is used on the mobile phone. You
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`continue contending that the smart card is not used
`
`to run the wallet application; is that right?
`
` A. That's what it says.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you agree that Dua does not
`
`provide a detailed disclosure that would guide
`
`implementation of a smart card used for financial
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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`transactions in Dua's mobile device?
`
` A. I think the issue here is that Dua doesn't
`
`actually show that the wallet is implemented on the
`
`smart card, but could be used in the processor
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`itself. All right. And so it doesn't actually get
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`to the level, the distinction that it needs that
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`says that the smart card is the secure element or is
`
`a -- is running the wallet. It just simply says
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`that the wallet is on the phone, but it could be in
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`the phone's unsecured processor.
`
` Q. Okay. So fair to say that Dua does not
`
`describe how to use a smart card for financial
`
`transactions?
`
` A. It does say that its smart card is used
`
`for storage and contactless communication. I think
`
`that's what I said.
`
` Q. But no -- no detailed description of how
`
`that smart card might be used for financial
`
`transactions, correct?
`
` A. Well, they certainly go on to say it's not
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`used to run the wallet application, the wallet
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`shell. I think that's the key, the crux, right
`
`there. It doesn't -- doesn't use a smart card for
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`running the wallet or the wallet shell.
`
` Q. Okay. So does it describe using the smart
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
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`card to conduct any financial transactions?
`
` A. Well, for storage.
`
` Q. Beyond storage, no?
`
` A. I'd have to go back and review it, but I
`
`don't think so. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Does Dua describe the conventional
`
`smart card details at all?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Objection, foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, one more time on
`
` the question.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Sure. Does Dua describe just the
`
`conventional details of a smart card?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: So Dua doesn't --
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Go ahead. I can ask a more specific
`
`question, but if you have an answer to that one,
`
`please go ahead.
`
` A. Kind of got tripped up here. Why don't
`
`you go ahead and ask the second question.
`
` Q. Sure. Does Dua describe the commands
`
`smart cards use for personalization?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: Dua doesn't -- Dua described
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
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` a SIP system which is a communication protocol
`
` to target between phones or between phones and
`
` servers. Dua describes -- leans on those kinds
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` of technologies in order to be able to
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` communicate.
`
` So when you say commands, I'd have to go
`
` back and look at the specification again, but
`
` it's -- I don't believe they're using typical
`
` smart card commands.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Okay. You don't recall Dua describing
`
`typical smart card commands, correct?
`
` A. Like I said, I'd have to go back and look
`
`at the specification. Not off the top of my head.
`
` Q. Okay. Does Dua describe the commands
`
`smart cards use to conduct financial transactions?
`
` A. You mean like in a GlobalPlatform
`
`environment?
`
` Q. In any smart card environment, does --
`
`does Dua provide the details of the commands used by
`
`smart cards to conduct financial transactions?
`
` A. Again, Dua describes using the SIP
`
`protocol in order to perform communications.
`
` Q. And it's not describing those
`
`communications being conducted by the smart card for
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00413
`Apple EX1045 Page 26
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 27
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`financial transactions; is that your testimony?
`
` A. You know, a big part of Dua was defining
`
`how to exchange data and to be able to initiate the
`
`connection between a cell phone or -- and be able to
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`target between a cell -- a p
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