`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` ____________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ____________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` PETITIONER
`
` V.
`
` RFCYBER CORP.,
`
` PATENT OWNER
`
` IPR2022-00412 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,189,787
`
` IPR2022-00413 OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,240,009
`
` ORAL AND VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ
`
` (Taken February 7, 2023 at 11:02 A.M. CST)
`
`REPORTED BY:Karisa J. Ekenseair, CCR RMR, LS NO. 802
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 1
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 2
`
` T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
`
` PAGE
`
`STYLE AND NUMBER.............................. 1
`APPEARANCES................................... 3
`CAPTION....................................... 4
`
`WITNESS: MIGUEL GOMEZ
`EXAMINATION BY MR. HART....................... 5
`EXAMINATION BY MR. OSTLING.................... 64
`
`CERTIFICATE OF COURT REPORTER................. 68
`
` EXHIBITS
` (NONE MARKED)
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 2
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 3
`
` APPEARANCES
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
` PAUL R. HART, ESQUIRE
` HUNTER HORTON, ESQUIRE
` KEVIN RONGISH, ESQUIRE
` ERISE IP, P.A.
` 5299 DTC BLVD., SUITE 1340
` GREENWOOD VILLAGE, COLORADO 80111
` 913-777-5600
` PAUL.HART@ERISEIP.COM
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` JACOB OSTLING, ESQUIRE
` FABRICANT LLP
` 411 THEODORE FREMD AVENUE, SUITE 206 SOUTH
` RYE, NEW YORK 10580
` JOSTLING@FABRICANTLLP.COM
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Ryan Gray, Lexitas Technician
`
` * * * * *
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 3
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 4
`
` CAPTION
`
` ANSWERS AND ORAL AND VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
` DEPOSITION OF MIGUEL GOMEZ, a witness produced
`
` at the request of the Petitioner, taken in the
`
` above-styled and numbered cause on the 7th day
`
` of February, 2023, before Karisa Ekenseair,
`
` Arkansas Supreme Court Certified Court Reporter
`
` #802, at 11:02 A.M. CST, via videoconference,
`
` pursuant to the agreement hereinafter set forth.
`
` * * * * * * * * * *
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 4
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 5
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ
`
`of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and
`
`says in reply to the questions propounded as
`
`follows:
`
` * * * * *
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Gomez. To get us
`
`started, can you state your full name for the
`
`record?
`
` A. Miguel Willie Gomez.
`
` Q. Have you been deposed before, Mr. Gomez?
`
` A. I have.
`
` Q. How many times approximately?
`
` A. About 14 times.
`
` Q. Okay. I'll keep the introduction short
`
`and sweet just as a refresher. It's my job to ask
`
`clear questions today. If you don't understand a
`
`question I ask you, if any part of my question is
`
`confusing, please let me know so I can rephrase it
`
`or clarify.
`
` The court reporter can only take down one
`
`of us speaking at a time. I will do my best not to
`
`speak over you, and I ask that you do your best not
`
`to speak over me so she can get a clear record. If
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 5
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`I do start asking a follow-up question and you have
`
`not finished your last answer, just let me know and
`
`I'll let you complete your answer.
`
` Is that all clear?
`
` A. Yeah. That's clear.
`
` Q. Okay. Is there any reason, medically or
`
`otherwise, you'd be unable to fully and truthfully
`
`answer my questions today?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Very good. I'm going to drop two
`
`exhibits into the chat, your two declarations from
`
`the proceedings we're going to be discussing today.
`
` MR. HART: And for the record, this
`
` deposition is going to cover two separate IPR
`
` proceedings: IPR2022-00412 that relates to the
`
` '787 patent, and IPR2022-0413 that relates to
`
` the '009 patent.
`
` Is that your understanding, Mr. Gomez?
`
` A. Yes, it is.
`
` Q. Okay. I'll refer to those as the '787
`
`proceeding and the '009 proceeding, if that works
`
`for you.
`
` A. That works.
`
` Q. All right. Very good. Can I have you
`
`pull up those two exhibits? They are both
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 6
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 7
`
`Exhibit 2007 from their respective proceedings. And
`
`just let me know when you have those open.
`
` A. I will. Okay. I have them open.
`
` Q. All right. Very good. My first couple
`
`questions are going to refer to paragraphs 34 in
`
`each of those declarations. And I'll go ahead and
`
`start with the '787 proceeding declaration.
`
` In paragraph 34, you provide an overview
`
`of the '787 patent and you note, the '787 patent
`
`claims methods and systems for providing electronic
`
`purses (e-purses) for use in electronic and mobile
`
`commerce.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And then turning to paragraph 34 in the
`
`'009 proceeding declaration, you provide an overview
`
`of the '009 patent?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You state, the invention of the '009
`
`patent is generally related to commerce over
`
`networks particularly techniques for personalizing a
`
`secure element and provisioning an application such
`
`as an electronic purse that can be advantageously
`
`used in portable devices configured for both
`
`electronic commerce, a/k/a e-commerce, and mobile
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 7
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`commerce, a/k/a m-commerce.
`
` Did I get that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I want to turn to your background. And I
`
`am going to drop your CV into the chat that has been
`
`introduced in both proceedings as 2008. And just
`
`for simplicity, I'm going to use the 412 proceeding
`
`from the '787 patent IPR for my questioning today.
`
`Let me know when you have that CV open.
`
` A. All right. I have it open.
`
` Q. All right. Very good. On page 2, you
`
`note you received a bachelor's in electrical
`
`engineering in 1983; is that correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Have you received any degrees since 1983?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Have you had any formal education since
`
`1983?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Pages 3 through 6 in your CV,
`
`Exhibit 2008, provides an overview of your
`
`engineering experience.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. I'd like to ask some questions about your
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 8
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`experience starting with the earliest engineering
`
`experience you have listed that dates back to 1983
`
`and going through around 2007, it looks like, when
`
`you were with ActSolar Inc.
`
` Does that time range make sense?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. In that time range, 1983 to 2007,
`
`what experience did you have with electronic purses
`
`or e-purses?
`
` A. So during that time frame, my focus was on
`
`building product and all sorts of different products
`
`related to implementation of communications,
`
`primarily with protocols and the methods used to
`
`exchange data. Back in the early '80s, it was
`
`telephony systems. In the '90s, it was for data
`
`communications. In the 2000s, I did a lot of
`
`security work.
`
` And so as far as the -- my background,
`
`of -- with protocols and implementing things that
`
`are related to the patents, it's pretty extensive.
`
` The patents are about protocols and it's
`
`for financial services. To the extent that I, you
`
`know, understand how those things work, I -- it's in
`
`my -- it's certainly in my CV.
`
` Q. And to my question, how about e-purses
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 9
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`specifically? Have you ever worked as a -- in your
`
`professional capacity with e-purses?
`
` A. Well, to the extent that the e-purses use
`
`protocols to exchange the data, like I said, I've
`
`got extensive experience designing with protocols
`
`and all the different layers and nuances of
`
`protocols. And so yes, to the extent it uses the
`
`functionality to communicate across a wire securely,
`
`I certainly have worked on those things.
`
` Q. Have you ever worked on any e-purses
`
`specifically?
`
` A. So -- so to the extent that an e-purse
`
`is -- is a storage device, certainly I have. And a
`
`secure storing securely, certainly I have.
`
` Q. What e-purses have you worked on?
`
` A. Like I said, I've worked on a number of
`
`different things related to communications, as well
`
`as the storage, and that's what an e-purse really
`
`is.
`
` Q. But an e-purse specifically, have you
`
`worked on anything that other engineers would refer
`
`to as specifically as an e-purse?
`
` A. So to the extent that it's a storage
`
`element for storing a value securely, like I said, I
`
`certainly said. The name, you know, changes. I've
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 10
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`worked on all different sorts of storage systems.
`
`To the fact that it is storage for an e-purse, I
`
`think I certainly have the experience to be able to
`
`do that kind of stuff.
`
` Q. And I hear what you're saying that
`
`you -- you believe you have the experience to
`
`discuss these topics.
`
` I'm asking very specifically: Have you
`
`ever worked on an e-purse?
`
` A. To the extent that it requires storage,
`
`certainly. To the extent that it requires
`
`communications, certainly. To the extent that it
`
`requires communications securely, certainly.
`
` Q. Let me move on to my next -- next question
`
`here: What experience in the 1983 to 2007 range do
`
`you have with electronic commerce?
`
` A. To the extent that we've been designing
`
`data communications for transporting data securely,
`
`I have considerable amount of experience. In 2000,
`
`I worked on a company called Webstacks that was
`
`later sold to Extreme Networks that was a server
`
`load balancer that was designed to be able to
`
`communicate data securely. Same kind of principle
`
`same kind of functionality that you would find in
`
`any kind of electronic products as well.
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 11
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. Have you ever worked on any systems that
`
`were designed specifically to carry electronic
`
`commerce?
`
` A. To the -- again, to the extent that I've
`
`worked on a large variety of different systems that
`
`transport data securely, I have worked on all the
`
`elements of electronic commerce.
`
` Q. But no systems that were specific to
`
`electronic commerce?
`
` A. Again, these are systems that -- that are
`
`using protocols and technologies that I've been
`
`working on for a variety of different products.
`
` Q. Can you identify any systems you've worked
`
`on that another engineer would describe as an
`
`electronic commerce system?
`
` A. So to the extent, again, that I've been
`
`working on protocols and working on storage systems
`
`for storing elements securely, I certainly have done
`
`a variety -- a large amount of that work.
`
` Q. Can you name any specific systems that one
`
`in the art would describe as an electronic commerce
`
`system?
`
` A. I'm sorry, one more time on the question.
`
` Q. Sure. Can you name any specific systems
`
`you've worked on that another person in the art
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 12
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`would describe as an electronic commerce system?
`
` A. Well, again, to the extent that I've
`
`worked on a variety of different storage systems and
`
`data communications systems and secure systems that
`
`use all of these protocols, you know, I've worked
`
`on -- on all of the elements that would be part of
`
`an electronic commerce system.
`
` Q. In the range 1983 to 2007, what experience
`
`do you have working with mobile commerce systems?
`
` A. So to the extent that I've worked on all
`
`of the things that I've mentioned before, I also
`
`have a fair amount of radio experience. And I've
`
`worked on a number of different radio front-ends and
`
`radio cellular communications systems. I've also
`
`supported a fair amount of litigation regarding LTE
`
`and various other over-the-air wireless
`
`communication protocols. I've also worked on Wi-Fi
`
`protocols as well.
`
` Q. Have you ever worked on any systems that
`
`were specifically targeting mobile commerce?
`
` A. Well, to the extent that I've worked on
`
`all of these systems using communications, both
`
`wired and wirelessly, I'm sure some of them were
`
`used for mobile commerce, but I've worked on the
`
`elements behind them.
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 13
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. Have you worked on any aspects of those
`
`systems that were specific to mobile commerce?
`
` A. Like I said, I've worked on all of the
`
`systems that the mobile commerce leans on in order
`
`to be able to communicate the -- you know, secure
`
`elements -- secure data across a network.
`
` Q. In your declarations, Exhibits 2007 in
`
`each of these proceedings, you've opined at length
`
`about certain smart card technologies and standards.
`
`In the time frame 1983 to 2007, have you had any
`
`experience with smart cards specifically?
`
` A. So at -- let me first say that the
`
`exhibits that you were just discussing that I opined
`
`on, all of those are protocols specifications. If
`
`you look at them carefully -- you don't even have to
`
`look at them carefully. They're just protocol
`
`descriptions. And like I said, I'm very qualified
`
`to be able to opine on that.
`
` But I did have a period of time at Philips
`
`Semiconductors back in the late '90s where I did
`
`actually work on peripherals used for
`
`microprocessors. And those -- it did include very
`
`early storage elements that some today would be
`
`considered to be smart cards.
`
` Q. Were any of those storage elements you
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 14
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`worked on at Philips used for financial transactions
`
`at the time?
`
` A. At the time they were designed to store
`
`data securely.
`
` Q. Right. And were they used for financial
`
`transactions at the time?
`
` A. They may have been. I don't know.
`
` Q. Okay. You did not work on any aspects of
`
`those storage elements pertaining to financial
`
`transactions; is that fair?
`
` A. My role at Philips was to be able to
`
`design secure systems or storage systems that could
`
`be storing data securely, and also to support the
`
`microprocessor group that was developing
`
`microprocessors for some of these later products.
`
`In specific, we were use -- we were designing
`
`processors for the handheld computing groups.
`
` Q. In the time frame from 1983 to 2007, did
`
`you have any experience with GlobalPlatform?
`
` A. I did not have any experience with
`
`GlobalPlatform per se. But again, like I said,
`
`GlobalPlatform's protocol specification, I'm very
`
`familiar with the protocols that would be used
`
`within a specification like that.
`
` Q. In that time frame, 1983 to 2007, did you
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 15
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`have any direct experience with any other smart
`
`card-specific protocols?
`
` A. Can you be more specific?
`
` Q. Sure. Protocols that were designed
`
`specifically for smart cards.
`
` A. Well, like I said, you know, I was working
`
`on secure storage at Philips, and I was also working
`
`on some of the other peripherals that were used for
`
`communicating to other -- to other devices. So to
`
`the extent that I used all those protocols,
`
`absolutely, was working on those, yes.
`
` Q. In the time frame from 1983 to 2007, did
`
`you work directly with any protocols that were
`
`designed specifically for financial transactions?
`
` A. Like I said, all of the protocols that are
`
`used in the exhibits are common and fairly
`
`straightforward. I've worked on a wide variety of
`
`different protocols and have read many, many
`
`protocol specifications.
`
` I look at the GlobalPlatform and I
`
`understand it to be a protocol for transferring
`
`secure information, not just financial payments or
`
`not just financial data, but a wide variety of
`
`things like authorization or storage of other
`
`information like medical records.
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 16
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` So it's not just the financial
`
`specification. It's a wide -- it's a storage
`
`element -- it's a secure storage element for a wide
`
`variety of types of information.
`
` Q. In that 1983 to 2000 [sic] time frame, did
`
`you have any direct experience with protocols that
`
`were specific to an electronic commerce or mobile
`
`commerce?
`
` A. Like I said, I worked on all of the
`
`protocols and all of the underlying technologies
`
`related to these -- these items.
`
` Q. Can you name any specific protocols you
`
`worked with that targeted electronic commerce or
`
`mobile commerce?
`
` A. Well, again, you know, everything is
`
`transported over TCP/IP and everything's transported
`
`or -- or at most UDP. But in this case, it would be
`
`TCP/IP. So to the extent I've worked on TCP/IP,
`
`absolutely.
`
` Q. And what way does TCP/IP target electronic
`
`commerce or mobile commerce? Maybe you didn't
`
`understand my question.
`
` A. So these technologies that I've worked on
`
`are the underpinnings of all of the communications
`
`that are used throughout the Internet. And I'm very
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 17
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`familiar with all of the protocols.
`
` Q. If we set aside generic communication
`
`protocols that are designed to transport any type of
`
`data and focus instead on protocols that are
`
`specifically designed for electronic commerce or
`
`mobile commerce, have you worked with any of these
`
`electronic commerce or mobile commerce protocols?
`
` A. So --
`
` MR. OSTLING: Objection. Objection to
`
` form.
`
` THE WITNESS: So you're asking me to
`
` specify a particular protocol, but all of these
`
` exhibits that you've -- that I've been provided
`
` with lean on the Internet technologies that have
`
` been developed in one way or the other, so all
`
` of the communications protocols.
`
` So we -- you are asking me to specify a
`
` particular protocol. That's -- I don't --
`
` that -- it's a little bit of a confusing
`
` question.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. In the 1983 to 2007 time frame, did you
`
`have any direct experience with MIFARE emulators?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Again, I worked on --
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 18
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` MR. HART: Repeat the objection.
`
` MR. OSTLING: Sorry, Paul, say again.
`
` MR. HART: Yeah, what's that basis of the
`
` objection?
`
` MR. OSTLING: The basis for the objection
`
` is that the term MIFARE emulator is vague; it
`
` assumes facts not in evidence.
`
` MR. HART: You can answer, Mr. Gomez.
`
` THE WITNESS: One more time on the
`
` question, please.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Sure. In the time frame from 1983 to
`
`2007, did you have any experience with MIFARE
`
`emulators?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: To the extent that they were
`
` using storage elements and, you know, like I
`
` said, I worked at Philips Semiconductors working
`
` on a variety of different interfaces for their
`
` computing devices. I've looked at the MIFARE
`
` specification. And the processors that are used
`
` there and the communication interfaces are
`
` things that I saw at Philips and worked on.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Did you look at anything related to MIFARE
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 19
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`in the time frame 1983 to 2007?
`
` A. I wasn't in that group, so to the extent
`
`that I was supporting them in one way or the other,
`
`you know, I was working on peripherals in general.
`
` Q. Can I have you pull up your declaration,
`
`Exhibit 2007, in the '787 patent proceeding? And
`
`scroll to paragraph 48, please.
`
` A. Did you say page 48?
`
` Q. I meant paragraph 48. I'm not sure what I
`
`said.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. All right. So paragraphs 47 and 48,
`
`you're discussing the Philips prior art reference
`
`that Apple used in the '787 patent IPR petition; is
`
`that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that's -- you describe it as Philips
`
`semiconductor P5CT072 secure dual interface PKI
`
`smart card controller; is that right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In paragraph 48, you state that in your
`
`experience, a data sheet like Philips' would
`
`normally only be distributed under an NDA; is that
`
`right?
`
` A. Yeah. That's correct.
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 20
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. You were not at Philips at the time this
`
`document was created, were you?
`
` A. I've got a lot of experience trying to get
`
`data sheets out of companies. You know, in the
`
`1970s when I was in college, I think data sheets was
`
`easy. But then we had the Apple versus
`
`AMD -- sorry, the Intel versus AMD wars. And
`
`there's a lot of data that was -- made it into the
`
`public that Apple -- that Intel was not too happy
`
`with. And that changed the mood -- that changed the
`
`way engineers had to get data sheets.
`
` It was difficult because you had to
`
`actually get a sales guy to come out to specify
`
`exactly what you wanted. Then you had to convince
`
`them you're worthy for him to get you an NDA. So
`
`I'm really familiar with how this works. And these
`
`kind of data sheets were under NDA.
`
` Q. In paragraph 47, you note that Philips has
`
`a revision date of October 2004.
`
` Were you at Philips in October 2004?
`
` A. No. I was not.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge
`
`that this specific document was subject to an NDA?
`
` A. Like I said, my experience is to get
`
`these -- documents of this form require
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 21
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`communicating with the manufacturer directly and
`
`ensuring that they were comfortable that you
`
`wouldn't spread their information.
`
` So these kind of documents were commonly
`
`under an NDA. And there's nothing here to show me
`
`that this wasn't under NDA. So given my experience,
`
`I would say that this certainly was.
`
` Q. Had you seen this specific document before
`
`Apple filed its IPR?
`
` A. Not this specific one.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any evidence
`
`specifically to this document that suggests it was
`
`subject to an NDA?
`
` A. Like I said, I was an engineer at this
`
`time working on many products. I was at Philips. I
`
`know that Philips did require NDAs as most -- most
`
`of the manufacturers did in that time frame. And so
`
`it was common to have to communicate with the
`
`manufacture, usually through their sales team, and
`
`access the documents securely through them.
`
` Q. All right. Let's move on. I'd like to
`
`talk about Dua, the primary prior art reference
`
`relied upon in Apple's IPR petition. Can I have you
`
`scroll back up to paragraph 41 in your declaration,
`
`Exhibit 2007, in the '787 patent IPR proceeding?
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 22
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. All right. So in paragraph 41, you start
`
`out by noting that Dua's system makes use of a
`
`wallet application, including a wallet shell, that
`
`runs on the phone's primary processor.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Dua's wallet application allows users to
`
`conduct financial transactions such as e-commerce
`
`and m-commerce transactions, correct?
`
` A. I'm sorry, one more time on the question.
`
` Q. Sure. Dua's wallet application allows
`
`users to conduct financial transactions such as
`
`e-commerce and m-commerce transactions; is that
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. In paragraph 42 on that same page,
`
`you note that Dua discloses an embodiment where a
`
`smart card is used on the mobile phone. You
`
`continue contending that the smart card is not used
`
`to run the wallet application; is that right?
`
` A. That's what it says.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you agree that Dua does not
`
`provide a detailed disclosure that would guide
`
`implementation of a smart card used for financial
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 23
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`transactions in Dua's mobile device?
`
` A. I think the issue here is that Dua doesn't
`
`actually show that the wallet is implemented on the
`
`smart card, but could be used in the processor
`
`itself. All right. And so it doesn't actually get
`
`to the level, the distinction that it needs that
`
`says that the smart card is the secure element or is
`
`a -- is running the wallet. It just simply says
`
`that the wallet is on the phone, but it could be in
`
`the phone's unsecured processor.
`
` Q. Okay. So fair to say that Dua does not
`
`describe how to use a smart card for financial
`
`transactions?
`
` A. It does say that its smart card is used
`
`for storage and contactless communication. I think
`
`that's what I said.
`
` Q. But no -- no detailed description of how
`
`that smart card might be used for financial
`
`transactions, correct?
`
` A. Well, they certainly go on to say it's not
`
`used to run the wallet application, the wallet
`
`shell. I think that's the key, the crux, right
`
`there. It doesn't -- doesn't use a smart card for
`
`running the wallet or the wallet shell.
`
` Q. Okay. So does it describe using the smart
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 24
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`card to conduct any financial transactions?
`
` A. Well, for storage.
`
` Q. Beyond storage, no?
`
` A. I'd have to go back and review it, but I
`
`don't think so. No.
`
` Q. Okay. Does Dua describe the conventional
`
`smart card details at all?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Objection, foundation.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, one more time on
`
` the question.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Sure. Does Dua describe just the
`
`conventional details of a smart card?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: So Dua doesn't --
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Go ahead. I can ask a more specific
`
`question, but if you have an answer to that one,
`
`please go ahead.
`
` A. Kind of got tripped up here. Why don't
`
`you go ahead and ask the second question.
`
` Q. Sure. Does Dua describe the commands
`
`smart cards use for personalization?
`
` MR. OSTLING: Same objection.
`
` THE WITNESS: Dua doesn't -- Dua described
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 25
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` a SIP system which is a communication protocol
`
` to target between phones or between phones and
`
` servers. Dua describes -- leans on those kinds
`
` of technologies in order to be able to
`
` communicate.
`
` So when you say commands, I'd have to go
`
` back and look at the specification again, but
`
` it's -- I don't believe they're using typical
`
` smart card commands.
`
`BY MR. HART:
`
` Q. Okay. You don't recall Dua describing
`
`typical smart card commands, correct?
`
` A. Like I said, I'd have to go back and look
`
`at the specification. Not off the top of my head.
`
` Q. Okay. Does Dua describe the commands
`
`smart cards use to conduct financial transactions?
`
` A. You mean like in a GlobalPlatform
`
`environment?
`
` Q. In any smart card environment, does --
`
`does Dua provide the details of the commands used by
`
`smart cards to conduct financial transactions?
`
` A. Again, Dua describes using the SIP
`
`protocol in order to perform communications.
`
` Q. And it's not describing those
`
`communications being conducted by the smart card for
`
`www.lexitaslegal.com
`
`LEXITAS LEGAL
`Phone: 1.800.280.3376
`
`Fax: 314.644.1334
`
`IPR2022-00412
`Apple EX1041 Page 26
`
`
`
` MIGUEL GOMEZ 2/7/2023
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`financial transactions; is that your testimony?
`
` A. You know, a big part of Dua was defining
`
`how to exchange data and to be able to initiate the
`
`connection between a cell phone or -- and be able to
`
`target between a cell -- a p