Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`
`
`APPLE INC. AND HP INC.,
`
` Petitioners,
` IPR2022-00367
`v. Patent No. 10,715,235
`
`XR COMMUNICATIONS, LLC,
`D/B/A VIVATO TECHNOLOGIES,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` VIDEOTAPED REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
`
` ROBERT AKL
`
` Tuesday, October 18, 2022
`
` 12:07 p.m. Eastern Standard Time
`
`Reported By:
`
`GRETA H. DUCKETT, CCR, RPR, CRR, CVR-S, RVR-M-S
`
`JOB NO.: 5919
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 1 of 48
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`
`
`APPLE INC. AND HP INC.,
`
` Petitioners,
` IPR2022-00367
`v. Patent No. 10,715,235
`
`XR COMMUNICATIONS, LLC,
`D/B/A VIVATO TECHNOLOGIES,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` VIDEOTAPED REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
`
` ROBERT AKL
`
` Tuesday, October 18, 2022
`
` 12:07 p.m. Eastern Standard Time
`
`Reported By:
`
`GRETA H. DUCKETT, CCR, RPR, CRR, CVR-S, RVR-M-S
`
`JOB NO.: 5919
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 1 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
` October 18, 2022
`
` 12:07 p.m. Eastern Standard Time
`
`
`
` Videotaped remote deposition of
`
`ROBERT AKL, taken stenographically by Greta H.
`
`Duckett, CCR, RPR, CRR, CVR-S, RVR-M-S.
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 2 of 48
`
`
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`Page 3
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
`
`
` Usman A. Khan, Esq.
`
` khan@fr.com
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
`
` 3299 RBC Plaza
`
` 60 South Sixth Street
`
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`
` (202)783-5070
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` Reza Mirzaie, Esq.
`
` rmirzaie@raklaw.com
`
` James Pickens, Esq.
`
` jpickens@raklaw.com
`
` RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`
` 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
`
` Los Angeles, California 90025
`
` (310)826-7474
`
`
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` John Thomas, videographer
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 3 of 48
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 4
`
` I N D E X
`
`
`
` EXAMINATION INDEX
`
`
`
` BY MR. MIRZAIE 7
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 4 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
` EXHIBIT INDEX
`
`
`
`EXHIBIT 1 IPR2022-00367 Petition 7
`
`EXHIBIT 1001 U.S. Patent 10,715,235 8
`
`EXHIBIT 1003 Declaration of Dr. 8
` Robert Akl
`
`EXHIBIT 1006 U.S. Patent 7,155,231 9
`
`EXHIBIT 1007 U.S. Patent 6,006,077 9
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8 9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 5 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good
`
` afternoon. We are now on the
`
` record. Today's date is
`
` October 18, 2022, and the time is
`
` 12:07 p.m. Eastern Standard Time.
`
` This is the video deposition
`
` of Robert Akl in the matter of
`
` Apple, iApple Inc., and HP Inc.,
`
` versus XR Communications, et al.,
`
` LLC, filed in the United States
`
` Patent and Trademark Office before
`
` the Patent Trial and Appeal Board,
`
` case number IPR2022-00367.
`
` This deposition is taking
`
` place via web videoconference, with
`
` all parties attending remotely. My
`
` name is John Thomas. I'm the
`
` videographer representing
`
` TransPerfect.
`
` Would counsel on the
`
` conference please identify
`
` yourselves and state who you
`
` represent, beginning with the
`
` questioning attorney.
`
`///
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 6 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` (Counsel stated appearances
`
` for the record.)
`
` ROBERT AKL,
`
` the witness, having first been duly
`
`sworn to speak the truth, the whole truth and
`
`nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. Good morning -- or good afternoon.
`
` A. It's still good morning. It's
`
`11:00 a.m. my time.
`
` Q. I forgot what time zone you're in.
`
`So I have uploaded a few exhibits to your chat
`
`function. Do you see those? There's five of
`
`them.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And let's just go ahead and
`
`maybe open those and confirm on the record what
`
`those are.
`
` (Exhibit 1 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. So the first one, from top to
`
`bottom, in the chat should be the IPR petition
`
`that is paper 3 in IPR 2022-00367, correct?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 7 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And this is the petition for inter
`
`partes review for which you have submitted an
`
`expert declaration, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And this concerns United States
`
`patent number 10,715,235, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Exhibit 1001 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. And we'll go ahead and confirm that
`
`the next exhibit, which is labeled
`
`Exhibit 1001. If you open that up, that is the
`
`actual '235 patent, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And is it okay if I call that the
`
`'235 patent? You'll know what I'm talking
`
`about, right, obviously?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Exhibit 1003 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. Great. Moving along, the next
`
`exhibit, top to bottom, is Exhibit 1003. And
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 8 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`that is your declaration, which we just
`
`referenced a moment ago, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And the exhibit numbers I'm using,
`
`by the way, just for the record -- this is not
`
`a question. But for the record, those are just
`
`the exhibit numbers used in the IPRs
`
`themselves.
`
` (Exhibit 1006 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. So the fourth exhibit, from top to
`
`bottom, is a reference called Burke, et al.
`
`And that's Exhibit 1006, U.S. patent number
`
`7,155,231 to Burke, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` (Exhibit 1007 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. And the final one for now in your
`
`chat box is Exhibit 1007, which is U.S. Patent
`
`6,006,077 to Shull, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. Great. So we'll focus, I
`
`think, mainly on your declaration. So if you
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 9 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`could pull that one up. That's Exhibit 1003.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And by the way, you have been
`
`deposed before, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Roughly how many times?
`
` A. Over a hundred times.
`
` Q. Okay. Mostly in patent cases, I
`
`take it, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Mostly in IPRs or litigation or
`
`both?
`
` A. Both.
`
` Q. Okay. So you know the ground
`
`rules. No need to go over them. Like I said
`
`before we got on the record, this will not take
`
`the full time slot. Probably not close to it.
`
`In any event, if you need a break at any point,
`
`just let me know, and we can take one. If I
`
`have a question pending at the time, I would
`
`probably just ask you to answer that question,
`
`and then we can take a break.
`
` Is that okay?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that goes for everybody on the
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 10 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 11
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Zoom link.
`
` If you don't understand any of my
`
`questions, just ask me to repeat them.
`
`Otherwise, I'll assume that you understood
`
`them. Is that fair?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. All right. So moving to
`
`Exhibit 1003, this is the declaration that you
`
`submitted in the IPR in question, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And you provide, I believe,
`
`two grounds for invalidity, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And I believe you also have, I
`
`think, paper copies of certain exhibits with
`
`you; is that right?
`
` A. I have just the table of contents
`
`of my declaration printed. That's the only
`
`paper exhibit I have.
`
` Q. Okay. So I'll probably be focusing
`
`mostly on the actual petition and then also
`
`your declaration. So if we go to the petition,
`
`that's Paper 3. If you could go to the bottom
`
`of page 1, there's a section titled, Challenge
`
`and Relief Requested.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 11 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And it spills over into page 2,
`
`right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And there are two grounds
`
`identified in the table there at the top of
`
`page 2.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And ground 1 is for claims 8
`
`through 12, and it is obviousness under 35
`
`USC Section 103 in view of Burke alone,
`
`correct?
`
` A. I see those words, yes.
`
` Q. And your declaration was provided
`
`in support of, among other things, that ground,
`
`ground 1, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so ground 1 does not include
`
`anticipation as a theory or ground for
`
`invalidity; it is obviousness under
`
`Section 103, correct?
`
` A. I'm not a -- I'm not here to answer
`
`legal questions, but my understanding, it is a
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 12 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 13
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`single-reference obviousness.
`
` Q. And your declaration in support of
`
`ground 1 for claims 8 through 12 also has
`
`opinions concerning an obviousness theory, not
`
`an anticipation theory, correct?
`
` A. Yes. My understanding, it is a
`
`single-reference obviousness under 103.
`
` Q. And ground 2 -- if you refer to the
`
`IPR -- that concerns claims 13 through 14, and
`
`it is also an obviousness ground. This time,
`
`it's Burke in view of Shull, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so ground 2 is not an
`
`anticipation theory; it is an obviousness
`
`theory, fair?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And if I understand correctly, your
`
`declaration in support of ground 2 has opinions
`
`supporting that obviousness theory. It does
`
`not have opinions supporting some anticipation
`
`theory, correct?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. And for claims 8 through 12, the
`
`petition and your declaration relies on Burke
`
`as a single-reference obviousness theory,
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 13 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 14
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`correct?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection.
`
` Counsel, if you could limit the
`
` questions to the scope of the
`
` deposition, which is the
`
` declaration, rather than asking for
`
` Dr. Akl's opinion on the petition,
`
` that would be great.
`
` MR. MIRZAIE: I don't think I
`
` have to, but, you know, I'll get to
`
` his declaration in a moment. I was
`
` just trying to kind of simplify
`
` things a little bit.
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. In your declaration for claims 8
`
`through 12, you rely on Burke for a
`
`single-reference obviousness theory, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. But you do not rely on Burke in
`
`view of Shull for claims 8 through 12, correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. All right. Maybe just a couple
`
`more questions to help speed things along, and
`
`then we can go back to your declaration.
`
` If you could go to page 3. At the
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 14 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 15
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`bottom of page 3, there's a section called
`
`"claim construction."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And what it says there is that no
`
`formal claim constructions are necessary for
`
`this petition.
`
` Do you see that sentence?
`
` A. Yes. I see those words.
`
` Q. Okay. And if I understand your
`
`declaration correctly, you also did not provide
`
`any formal specific claim constructions or
`
`didn't see any need to for any particular claim
`
`elements, correct?
`
` A. Yes. That's correct.
`
` Q. If I understand correctly -- and if
`
`we could switch over to your declaration now
`
`again, Exhibit 1003, you just applied what you
`
`believe to be the plain and ordinary meaning of
`
`the claim elements in your analysis, correct?
`
` A. I applied what would be the plain
`
`and ordinary meaning as understood by a person
`
`of ordinary skill in the art that would read
`
`the claims in light of the specification.
`
` Q. That is the more complete way of
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 15 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 16
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`saying what I tried to say. You said it better
`
`than I did, but thank you for that
`
`clarification.
`
` Okay. And claims 13 and 14 are
`
`dependent claims, correct? And feel free to
`
`consult the patent or your declaration or any
`
`other document.
`
` A. Yes. Claim 3 depends on claim 12.
`
`Claim 14 depends on claim 13.
`
` Q. And I think you said claim 3 -- or
`
`at least that's what I heard. You meant claim
`
`13, right?
`
` A. Claim 13 depends on claim 12.
`
` Q. Great. I'm going to jump around a
`
`little bit here. If we could go down to page
`
`61 of your declaration. Let me know when
`
`you're there.
`
` A. I am there.
`
` Q. Great. And for this element, you
`
`labeled this element 8F. Do you see that right
`
`above your paragraph 101?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that element reads,
`
`Transmitting to the remote station a third
`
`signal comprising content based on the set of
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 16 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`weighting values. Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And I believe in the paragraphs
`
`that follow, you -- or the paragraph that
`
`follows, what you state there is referring back
`
`to element 8E. Burke teaches that the mobile
`
`station 106 transmits a message that includes a
`
`set of weight values to the base station 104.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And then in the next sentence, you
`
`state that it would have been obvious to a
`
`POSITA that the message is transmitted through
`
`a signal and consequently that the mobile
`
`station 106 transmits a third signal (different
`
`from the first signal and second signal
`
`received from the remote station) that includes
`
`the message comprising content based on the set
`
`of weighting values determined by the mobile
`
`station 106 to the base station 104 via the
`
`antenna 112 as described by Burke.
`
` Did I read that correctly?
`
` A. Yes. I think so.
`
` Q. And so here you opine that it would
`
`have been obvious to a POSITA that the message
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 17 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`that you reference here would have been
`
`transmitted through a signal and specifically a
`
`claimed, quote/unquote, third signal, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that the third signal would,
`
`quote, include the message comprising content
`
`based on the set of weighting values determined
`
`by the mobile station 106 to the base station
`
`104 via the antenna 112 as described by Burke,
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And so your opinions here -- strike
`
`that.
`
` So here in this paragraph you opine
`
`that Burke teaches the, quote/unquote, message
`
`comprising content based on the set of
`
`weighting values, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. So if I understand correctly --
`
`strike that.
`
` You don't have any opinion that
`
`Burke expressly teaches this limitation,
`
`correct?
`
` A. I do have an opinion that Burke
`
`expressly teaches, because I quote and I cite
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 18 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`to you Burke, when I say that Burke explicitly
`
`teaches transmitting a message that includes a
`
`set of weight values to the base station.
`
` Q. I think I understand. Just to
`
`clarify, there is at least one portion of the
`
`claim element that you claim is rendered,
`
`quote/unquote, obvious as you state in the
`
`second sentence of 101, true?
`
` A. Yes. That refers to the word
`
`"third signal." I've already identified that
`
`Burke teaches the first signal and a second
`
`signal and that Burke does teach a signal that
`
`transmits the message that includes a set of
`
`weight values. I don't think Burke explicitly
`
`calls it a third signal. And I'm saying it
`
`would have been obvious to a -- to call it a
`
`third signal. But everything else about this
`
`limitation in terms of a signal comprising
`
`content based on the set of weight values is
`
`explicitly disclosed by Burke that shows that
`
`you can transmit a message that includes a set
`
`of weight values to the base station. So that
`
`message would be in a signal, it just doesn't
`
`call it a third signal.
`
` Q. Thank you. And so what is the
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 19 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`content that is based on the set of weighting
`
`values?
`
` A. The one example would be the actual
`
`set of weights. So the set of weight values
`
`would be an example of content based on the set
`
`of weighting values. And that's what Burke
`
`teaches.
`
` Q. I should have been a little bit
`
`more clear. Just limiting your answer to the
`
`opinions that you reference or provide in
`
`paragraph 101, what is the content that is
`
`based on the set of weighting values?
`
` A. I think I already answered that
`
`question. It is the set of weight values. So
`
`transmitting the weights would be -- would be
`
`an example of content based on the set of
`
`weighting values.
`
` Q. And here you opine that the third
`
`signal includes the message comprising content
`
`based on the set of weighting values.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And what else would that signal
`
`include besides that message based on Burke's
`
`teaching?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 20 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. I don't -- I don't find it
`
`necessary or I don't recall what else it could
`
`include. The fact that it includes a message
`
`that includes the set of weights meets the
`
`claim language. So the claim language requires
`
`content based on the set of weighting values.
`
`And a message that includes a set of weights
`
`would need that content based on the set of
`
`weighting values that's required by the claim.
`
` So to the extent there is other
`
`information in the signal, I don't recall or
`
`point to those because it's not necessary for
`
`the opinion that I have here.
`
` Q. And that's because the claim
`
`requires, in your opinion, content based on the
`
`set of weighting values, right?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection. Form.
`
` A. Limitation 8F says transmitting to
`
`the remote station a third signal comprising
`
`content based on the set of weighting values.
`
`So I have shown that Burke teaches that you
`
`have a mobile station that transmits the
`
`message that includes a set of weight values to
`
`the base station. So it meets all the
`
`elements, and it would have been obvious for
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 21 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`that signal to be called a third signal or to
`
`be the third signal required by the limitation.
`
` Q. Okay. We may come back to that.
`
`If you could flip now to page 27.
`
` A. I am there.
`
` Q. All right. Actually, give me a
`
`second. Actually, page 46. And if you could
`
`flip to that page.
`
` A. Okay. I'm there.
`
` Q. So this page provides -- along with
`
`other pages, provide your opinions concerning
`
`element 8A, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And specifically paragraphs --
`
`strike that.
`
` Your opinions concerning how
`
`element 8A maps to Burke are provided in
`
`paragraphs 83 through 86, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you don't have any opinion that
`
`every claim term in 8A is expressly taught by
`
`Burke, fair?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection to form.
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. Let me rephrase that. You don't
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 22 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`have an opinion that claim element 8A -- strike
`
`that.
`
` Let me back up. You don't have any
`
`anticipation opinions for claim 8 in your
`
`declaration, correct?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. You provide an obviousness opinion
`
`for claim 8 based on a single-reference
`
`obviousness theory based on Burke, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. For element 8A, you provide an
`
`obviousness theory, correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And if you go to paragraph 85, it's
`
`your opinion that it would have been obvious to
`
`a POSITA that the first signal transmission
`
`transmitted over a signal path 150 would have
`
`been received via one of the antennas, e.g.,
`
`the first antenna of the array of antennas in
`
`antenna 112 and a second signal transmission
`
`transmitted over signal path 160 would have
`
`been received via a second antenna of the array
`
`of antennas in antenna 112, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. So Burke does not expressly recite
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 23 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`or teach this element, but in your opinion it
`
`would been obvious anyway, correct?
`
` A. Burke doesn't explicitly call them
`
`a first signal and a second signal. But when
`
`we look at figure 2, which is on the previous
`
`page, Burke expressly shows the base station
`
`104, which meets the claim language of a remote
`
`station. And it shows a mobile station 106,
`
`which would be doing the receiving that is
`
`required by element 8A. And we see there is a
`
`transmission 150 and a transmission 160, just
`
`like you read. Burke doesn't expressly call
`
`them first signal transmission and second
`
`signal transmission.
`
` I annotate Figure 2 myself in green
`
`and in red, and I label these as a first signal
`
`transmission and a second signal transmission.
`
`So it would be obvious for a person of ordinary
`
`skill in the art to call transmission 150 a
`
`first signal transmission and transmission 160
`
`a second signal transmission as required by the
`
`claim.
`
` But everything else is expressly
`
`disclosed, including antenna 112, which also
`
`can be an array, and that's expressly disclosed
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 24 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`in Burke where I point to in paragraph 84.
`
`It's column 25, lines 58 through 61. So the
`
`only thing that I'm pointing to as obvious to a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art is the
`
`labeling of a first signal and a second signal.
`
` And since we're in this section,
`
`paragraph 84, the third line, you see it says
`
`25-58-61. It should be 25:58-61. So there's a
`
`very small typo here. It's columns 25, line 58
`
`to 61.
`
` Q. In paragraph 85, you state that
`
`prior art from the same time period further
`
`demonstrates that a POSITA would have been
`
`motivated to implement Burke's disclosure, and
`
`then you have a citation there -- for its
`
`technological benefits, like improved
`
`short-term channel estimation and receiver
`
`performance gain, with a reasonable expectation
`
`of success because it was implemented in
`
`similar wireless communication systems.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And then the examples that you
`
`point to here, in the next sentence, you point
`
`to a reference, Hottinen, correct?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 25 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you have another example,
`
`Walton, later in the paragraph, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And you have a third and final
`
`example in the paragraph is Goldsmith, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You state that the technological
`
`benefits -- strike that.
`
` You state here in paragraph 85 that
`
`the motivation would stem from technological
`
`benefits, like improved short-term channel
`
`estimation and receiver performance gain,
`
`correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And those are your words; those
`
`aren't in Burke, correct?
`
` A. These are my words demonstrating
`
`why Burke -- so Burke itself discloses antenna
`
`112. And Burke itself explicitly discloses
`
`that antenna 112 can be an antenna array. And
`
`that's -- again, I cite in paragraph 25,
`
`column 25, lines 58 to 61 twice. In the third
`
`line of paragraph 85 and in the sentence that
`
`you just read.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 26 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` So I am explaining why a POSITA
`
`would be motivated to implement Burke's own
`
`disclosure of an antenna array in element 112.
`
`And so I show the benefits of having an antenna
`
`array. And if you have an antenna array, you
`
`would have a first antenna element and a second
`
`antenna element, because an antenna array would
`
`be made up of at least two antenna elements.
`
`And I provide the motivation of having an
`
`antenna array, which is explicitly disclosed in
`
`Burke, the benefits of using an antenna array
`
`to receive a first signal and a second signal.
`
`And so the references that I cite to further
`
`support why an antenna array would be used by a
`
`POSITA, but the antenna array in 112 is
`
`explicitly disclosed in Burke.
`
` Q. You don't have an opinion that
`
`having an antenna array would inherently
`
`require a first signal being received at a
`
`first antenna element and a second signal being
`
`received by the different second antenna
`
`element, fair?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection to form.
`
` Misstates testimony.
`
`///
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 27 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`BY MR. MIRZAIE:
`
` Q. Strike that. Let me ask you a
`
`slightly different question.
`
` The phrase "antenna array," to you,
`
`requires that you have more than one antenna
`
`element in an array, fair?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And there were antenna arrays
`
`present in the art, obviously, per your
`
`opinions, around the time of this patent
`
`filing, correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And at least some of those arrays
`
`had antenna elements that were capable of
`
`receiving more than one different signal at the
`
`same element of the array, obviously, fair?
`
` A. I don't understand the last
`
`question.
`
` Q. Yes. The question is: Some of the
`
`antenna arrays in the art were capable of
`
`receiving multiple different signals at a
`
`single element within the array, correct?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection.
`
` Ambiguous.
`
` A. What I show is Burke explicitly
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Exhibit 2011
`IPR2022-00367
`Page 28 of 48
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`shows an antenna array 112, because 112 can be
`
`an antenna array, and it explicitly shows
`
`receiving a first signal and a second signal
`
`using antenna 112, which can be an antenna
`
`array.
`
` Q. Yeah. And my question was a little
`
`bit different. I was asking about antenna
`
`arrays in the art at the time of the invention.
`
`Do you recall that?
`
` Do you recall my question? Not --
`
`not do you recall all of the art.
`
` A. Well, I thought I answered your
`
`question. So maybe if you want to clarify your
`
`question or ask it again.
`
` Q. Sure. An antenna array, per our
`
`conversation moments ago, means that there
`
`would be two or more antenna elements within an
`
`array, correct?
`
` MR. KHAN: Objection.
`
` A. An antenna array usually would
`
`include more than one antenna element. That's
`
`what makes it an array.
`
` Q. That's what makes it an array,
`
`correct? That's one part of what makes it an
`
`array, correct?
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-4
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
