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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`___________________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ___________________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
` __________________
`
`Case IPR2022-00350
`
`U.S. Patent No. 9,806,565
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
`
`JOSHUA PHINNEY, PH.D., P.E.
`
`Tuesday, November 1, 2022
`
`10:00 a.m. Eastern Time
`
`Stenographically Reported By:
`
`Jennifer Miller, RMR, CRR, CCR
`
`Job No. 5957
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Scramoge Technology Ltd.
`Ex. 2017 - Page 1
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`___________________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ___________________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
` __________________
`
`Case IPR2022-00350
`
`U.S. Patent No. 9,806,565
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
`
`JOSHUA PHINNEY, PH.D., P.E.
`
`Tuesday, November 1, 2022
`
`10:00 a.m. Eastern Time
`
`Stenographically Reported By:
`
`Jennifer Miller, RMR, CRR, CCR
`
`Job No. 5957
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`Scramoge Technology Ltd.
`Ex. 2017 - Page 1
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`
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`Page 2
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`APPEARING FOR PETITIONER:
`
`SCOTT JARRATT, ESQ.
`
`CALMANN J. CLEMENTS, ESQ.
`
`Haynes Boone, LLP
`
`6000 Headquarters Drive, Suite 200
`
`Plano, Texas 75024
`
`(972) 739-8663
`
`scott.jarratt@haynesboone.com
`
`calmann.clements@haynesboone.com
`
`APPEARING FOR PATENT OWNER:
`
`JOHN PETRSORIC, ESQ.
`
`Russ August & Kabat
`
`12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
`
`Los Angeles, California 90025
`
`(310) 826-7474
`
`jpetrsoric@raklaw.com
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`Page 3
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` I N D E X
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`WITNESS PAGE
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`JOSHUA PHINNEY, PH.D
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` EXAMINATION:
`
` BY MR. PETRSORIC 4
`
` BY MR. JARRATT 124
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
`Exhibit 1003 Declaration of Dr. Joshua 5
` Phinney
`
`Exhibit 1005 U.S. Patent Number 10
` 8,941,352
`
`Exhibit 1012 U.S. Patent 8,339,798 83
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`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent Number 116
` 9,806,565
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` JOSHUA PHINNEY, after
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` having been first duly sworn, was
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` examined and testified as follows:
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` - - -
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` E X A M I N A T I O N
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` - - -
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`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
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` Q. Good morning, Dr. Phinney.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. We've done this before, so I'll run
`
`through the ground rules very quickly.
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` You've been deposed many times
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`before, correct?
`
` A. Yes, about in the 30s.
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` Q. And there's no reason today that
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`would prevent you from answering my questions
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`truthfully, is there?
`
` A. No, there's not.
`
` Q. And to the extent you need a break,
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`you can always ask for one.
`
` Do you understand that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And your answers should be given
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`orally and out loud so the Court Reporter can
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`transcribe them.
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` Understood?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Jump right into it then.
`
` The '565 patent, I'm going to
`
`ask you -- I'm going to upload, first, your
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`declaration, which is Exhibit 1003.
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` - - -
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` (Whereupon, Exhibit 1003 was
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` marked for identification.)
`
` - - -
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` MR. PETRSORIC: I'm having a
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` little bit of an issue uploading. There
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` it is.
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`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. Please let me know when you've
`
`received that.
`
` A. I have it.
`
` Q. Can you open it?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Just for clarity, when you've had a
`
`moment to give it a review, is this the
`
`declaration you submitted with respect to
`
`IPR2022-00350 with respect to U.S. Patent
`
`Number 9,806,565?
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` A. It is.
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` Q. For purposes of clarity, is it okay
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`if we refer to this IPR today as "the 350 IPR"?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And, similarly, for clarity, is it
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`okay if we refer to the patent bearing number
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`9,806,565 as "the '565 patent"?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In your declaration, you rely on
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`U.S. Patent Number 8,941,352 to Hong as your
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`primary invalidity reference; is that correct?
`
` A. Yeah. I think that's a fair
`
`statement.
`
` Q. And is it okay if we refer to that
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`reference as "Hong"?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Let me take a step back one minute.
`
` Can you describe the process for
`
`me by which you prepared your declaration?
`
` A. Some of it began in September of
`
`2021. It involved looking at the patents --
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`the patents asserted by Scramoge in another
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`proceeding and trying to identify what they
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`were about and trying to put myself in the
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`shoes of a person at that time -- at the time
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`of this invention.
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` Q. And did you draft your own
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`declaration?
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` A. I didn't physically type all of it.
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`I did type some of it.
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` But I spoke with the attorneys
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`for Apple to discuss the opinions that I could
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`then review in the declaration.
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` Q. Did you provide those opinions in an
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`oral form or written form?
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` A. It was -- it was oral. It was
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`discussions.
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` Q. Did the attorneys draft the first --
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`strike that.
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` Who drafted the -- who made the
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`first draft of the declaration, then?
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` A. It was collaborative. I didn't
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`physically type all of it, but I wrote some of
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`it, typed some of it. And then other parts, I
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`discussed what -- what my opinion was and
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`then -- but didn't, you know, type some of
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`those parts.
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` So it was collaborative in that
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`way.
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` Q. Are -- the opinions contained in this
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`declaration, do you stand by them all?
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` A. Yeah. They're my opinions.
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` Q. If you turn to --
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` A. Is it -- I'm sorry to just get
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`into -- is this a bad place to just mention a
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`couple errata?
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` Q. That's fine, if that would streamline
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`things.
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` A. Okay. Yeah. There were just two --
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`I wrote down some paragraph numbers. I think
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`one was paragraph 88.
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` This is a placeholder for a
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`paragraph cite internal to the declaration. It
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`says paragraph xx in paragraph 88 of
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`Exhibit 1003. And, there, I was referring back
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`to -- it would have been around paragraph 64.
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` And the other one, I think I can
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`find super quickly. It is in paragraph 50. I
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`have the word "electromechanical," and that
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`should be "electromagnetic." I'm referring to
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`electromagnetic induction.
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` That same type of correction
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`appears in paragraph 132 and 144.
`
` Q. Do those corrections at all modify
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`your opinions that you presented in this
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`declaration?
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` A. No. They're more like typos. The
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`one cite was an oversight.
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` Q. If you turn to page 21 in -- in
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`paragraph 43 -- let me know when you're there.
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` A. Okay. I'm there.
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` Q. The second sentence begins: "A
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`'wiring layer' is disposed within layers of the
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`main circuit board 20 to electrically connect
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`the inner end of the coil to a connecting
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`terminal of the rectifying unit, as illustrated
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`in Figure 4 below."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. The term "wiring layer" is in quotes.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Is there any specific reason why
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`"wiring layering" is in quotes?
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` A. If I could just look quickly at Hong.
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`I have a copy or --
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` Q. Would you like me to upload a copy of
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`Hong?
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` A. Yeah. That would be wonderful.
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` Q. That makes sense.
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` MR. PETRSORIC: So for the Court
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` Reporter, I'm going to upload a copy of --
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` I believe it is Exhibit 1005, which is the
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` '352 patent to Hong.
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` THE COURT STENOGRAPHER: So
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` you're skipping over 1004?
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` - - -
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` (Whereupon, Exhibit 1005 was
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` marked for identification.)
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` - - -
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` MR. PETRSORIC: Yes. These are
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` exhibit numbers that are used in the IPR,
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` so they're already premarked. So to keep
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` the transcript consistent with the
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` exhibits that are used in the filings to
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` date and in the proceedings, we're going
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` to use the -- those exhibit numbers.
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` THE COURT STENOGRAPHER: Got it.
`
`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. Okay. It's coming your way. Did you
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`receive it?
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` A. Yes. Yes, I have it. Thank you.
`
` So the short answer, being in
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`quotes, is that, in Column 5, around line --
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`line 9 of Hong, the term "wiring layer"
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`appears, and it's given a reference numeral 27.
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` So those quotes, I'm trying to
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`show that I'm using the language of Hong. It's
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`not like they're scare quotes or a
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`characterization.
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` Q. Thank you.
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` In that sentence, you also use
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`the term that the "'wiring layer' is disposed
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`within the layers of the main circuit board
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`20."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What do you mean by "disposed within
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`the layers of the main circuit board"?
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` A. I'd really point us to two
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`paragraphs.
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` One is paragraph 86, where I'm
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`describing how the wire layer is disposed
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`within the receiving space and occupies the
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`same space as the receiving space and overlaps
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`it in every direction.
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` And then a second I describe, in
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`conjunction with this, is where I describe the
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`receiving space itself in paragraph 67, and I
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`say that the receiving space in the main
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`circuit board is a design space of
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`predetermined shape that extends through the
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`layers. And I trace that path.
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` So that's something that I show
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`in different places through the declaration.
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`But, for instance, in the figure right after
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`paragraph 43 that we were talking about, that's
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`what that's intended to show.
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` Q. And what particularly in that figure
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`shows the wiring layer disposed within the
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`layers of the main circuit board?
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` A. So those layers can include layer 21a
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`in that figure of Figure 4. That's Figure --
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`21a is this outermost layer and so on. That's
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`depicting a stack of layers.
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` So I'm showing that green
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`annotation as wiring layer 27 deposed in the
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`substrate and showing the -- what it's
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`connecting.
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` Q. Let me take a step back for a second,
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`then.
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` The -- Hong describes a main
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`circuit board 20, correct?
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` A. Yes, main circuit board 20.
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` Q. And would a person of ordinary skill
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`consider that to be a printed circuit board?
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` A. I think that's one type of
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`construction method that would occur to a
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`person of ordinary skill. It could be a
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`printed circuit board, yes.
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` Q. Do you understand the Hong reference
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`to be disclosing anything other than a printed
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`circuit board?
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` A. I would answer by pointing out --
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`certainly, I'd bring up, in paragraph 68, where
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`I show that there were known other types of
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`laminar construction techniques that could
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`include embedded components. There could be
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`recesses or openings for accommodating
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`components that could be engineered into a
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`laminate.
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` And the reason I'm bringing that
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`up is just saying a printed circuit board can
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`give the impression of, like, one type of
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`manufacturing method, but there -- if you give
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`more attention and features to inner layers,
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`providing routing of inner layers and so forth,
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`you can have actually quite engineered
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`laminates that can include a variety of
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`materials or shapes.
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` So I just wanted -- you could
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`also classify those as printed circuit boards.
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`I'm just saying that it's a step beyond -- it
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`can be a step beyond, you might say, like, just
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`a normal multilayer printed circuit board.
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` Q. Do you understand Hong to be
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`disclosing anything other than a normal
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`multilayer printed circuit board?
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` A. That's -- what I'm trying to convey
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`in my answer is that I think, given its laminar
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`construction techniques, it can include -- it's
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`not necessarily limited to a -- just a normal
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`printed circuit board. It can include
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`additional -- it's silent about many features
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`regarding materials and substrates, as an
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`example. And so I think, within that group,
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`there can be.
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` Q. So it could be a rigid multilayer
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`printed circuit board potentially?
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` A. That's one thing it could potentially
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`be.
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` But, for instance, when I
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`discussed the other references -- I'll just
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`point you to a couple of paragraphs, if you
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`don't mind.
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` I say that -- regarding the
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`rigid issue, paragraph 145, this is an example.
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` "Hong chooses to omit certain
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`implementation details that were known to
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`POSITAs, details related to the main circuit
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`board."
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` So there's -- there's more
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`features and properties that can be included in
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`the -- in Hong's laminar substrate.
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` It can be something beyond just
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`the generic printed circuit board is my point.
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` Q. In paragraph 145, you mention
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`possible flexible printed circuit board,
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`correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. That would still be a printed circuit
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`board, though, correct?
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` A. Yeah, you could think of like that.
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` My point is just to focus us on
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`the idea that Hong is silent about some of
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`these implementation details, another being,
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`like, what material.
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` And so when you start to get
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`into engineered laminates that can include
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`magnetic materials, as another example that I
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`provide in my declaration, in a way, that's
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`something beyond -- what I'm saying is a
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`normal -- a normal printed circuit board.
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` Q. Okay. Let me take a step back, then.
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` Because Hong does use the term
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`"circuit board," and it has a multilayer
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`construction, correct?
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` A. Okay. I'd agree that there are,
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`yeah, multiple layers in that depiction that we
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`were talking about. We saw the outermost layer
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`and then a stack of other layers.
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` Q. And if you look at Hong Column 4,
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`line 33.
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` When you're there, I'll --
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` A. Yeah, I'm there.
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` Q. You'll see that it says that "The
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`main circuit board 20 has a multiple structure
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`composed of a first outermost layer 21a, a
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`second outermost layer 21b, and a plurality of
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`inner layers disposed between the first and
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`second outermost layers 21a and 21b."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So Hong is depicting a multilayer
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`circuit board; is that correct?
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` A. In Figure 3, it shows -- Hong shows
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`the main circuit board that has those layers
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`and -- the outermost layers in these plurality
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`of inner layers.
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` Q. Are you saying Figure 3? Where are
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`the inner layers in Figure 3?
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` A. So that passage we were looking at in
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`Hong described a first outermost layer 21a and
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`a second outermost layer 21b. So we see those
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`in Figure 3.
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` And then without reference
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`numerals, in Figure 3, the corresponding text
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`says "a plurality of inner layers disposed
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`between the first and second outermost layers."
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` Q. And then the -- those innermost --
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`those inner layers would be the drawings -- the
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`lines depicted between 21a and 21b?
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` A. Those could be the boundaries of
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`these different layers. Those lines, I mean,
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`could be the boundaries.
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` Q. So the bottom line under 21a would be
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`the boundary between the first outermost
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`layer 21a and then one of the inner layers?
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` MR. JARRATT: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: When I look at
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` numeral 21a -- and if I zoom in a lot,
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` it's showing that it's sort of pointing
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` not to a line but to the area between two
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` lines that -- these diagonal lines on the
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` edge of -- of item 20.
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` So, to me, that means that the
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` outermost layer is being depicted as
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` having some thickness and -- so we see
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` that edge on view, sort of this isometric
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` view. But we see below that 21a or what
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` are essentially that same line, and it's
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` repeated several times.
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` And, to me, that indicates that
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` those are different layers that are also
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` shown as having some thickness.
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`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
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` Q. And if you look at Figure 4, is
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`that -- is that showing what you're describing
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`a little more clearly because it's not an
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`isometric view?
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` A. I don't know if it's more clear. But
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`it's viewed from the side. And, here, it's
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`giving a reference numeral 23 for inner
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`layers 23.
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` Q. You mentioned previously a laminar
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`structure, is that correct, or was it a
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`laminate structure?
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` A. I believe I said "a laminar
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`structure." I could have said -- I could have
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`just used just a noun and used -- I would have
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`called it a laminate in that example.
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` Q. Okay. And when you say "a laminate,"
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`can you describe for me potentially, with
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`respect to Figure 4 of Hong, what you're
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`referring to?
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` A. You can think of it as a stack of
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`layers, a multilayer laminated circuit board
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`like Hong's.
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` Q. Okay. And can you -- do you
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`generally understand how a multilayer laminated
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`circuit board like Hong is constructed?
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` A. I think I answered previously about
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`Hong being -- you know, omitting some
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`implementation details that could have to do
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`with materials of some of the laminations,
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`whether they be magnetic or they could be
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`flexible substrates and so forth.
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` But the -- I think Hong also --
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`I don't recall that it is providing details of
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`how -- how circuit board 20 is constructed.
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` Q. Would a person of ordinary skill in
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`the art, with respect to the '565 patent, have
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`an understanding as to the ways in which a
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`circuit board could be constructed, generally?
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` A. I think they would, yes, have a -- an
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`understanding of some ways. There is quite a
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`range of methods and features that can be
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`included in multilayer laminates, but they
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`would have an understanding of at least, you
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`know, some of those -- some of those ways.
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` Q. And what -- what would be some of
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`those ways?
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` A. Well, one thing, if I could point
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`out, would be in paragraph 68.
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` It could be known to create
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`printed circuit boards that include embedded
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`components that have engineered recesses or
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`openings. That's -- you know, that's more
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`highly engineered, but it is a -- it's a
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`possibility to have that.
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` That's just an example.
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` Q. What are those recesses or openings
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`in?
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` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: These can be -- as
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` I say here, are formed in the layers of
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` the circuit board to accommodate the
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` embedded components.
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` This is in paragraph 68. I'm
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` citing Exhibit 1012.
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`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
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` Q. And when you say "layers," would a
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`person of ordinary skill in the art know what a
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`layer is?
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` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: In this context,
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` in talking about a printed circuit board,
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` layers are known to be one of the
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` constituent parts in what's called a layup
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` for a printed circuit board.
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` And so a person of ordinary
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` skill would be at least familiar with that
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` type of construction.
`
`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. And what would a person of ordinary
`
`skill in the art understand a layer to be made
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`of or to consist of?
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` A. Well, again, there's a range of
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`possibilities. This goes back to what I said
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`about how Hong can be -- can omit certain
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`details.
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` So, for instance, in
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`paragraph 133, I describe how, you know, layers
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`need not be, you know, some prepreg laminated
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`sheet used in, you know, a multilayer printed
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`circuit board. It can also include other
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`materials with more engineered properties.
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` Q. You used the term "prepreg."
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` What are you referring to?
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` A. When -- in prepreg, you can have
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`resin-impregnated sheets that are put on a core
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`and pressed and cured so that -- prepreg sheets
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`are usually specified -- you know, will have a
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`copper build on them and can have a pattern on
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`them.
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` But that's just one type of
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`construction.
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` Q. In paragraph 145, you refer to the
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`Sung reference.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And at the bottom of page 79, the
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`last sentence, you state: "In particular, Sung
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`describes that the 'coil unit in the circuit
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`unit may also be implemented on a flexible
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`printed circuit board made of polyimide or a
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`frame retardant 4 (FR-4) type printed circuit
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`board.'"
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. Is FR-4 considered a prepreg
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`laminated layer?
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` A. The way you asked that question, I
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`just have to -- yeah, I'd have to say no. It's
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`not that the -- the -- maybe if you could just
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`ask that a different way.
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` Q. Sure.
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` Would a person of ordinary skill
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`in the art consider an FR-4 to be part of --
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`potentially part of a prepreg laminated layer?
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` A. I'm sorry. If you could just -- if I
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`could just hear that question again. I'm
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`sorry.
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` Q. Certainly.
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` Would a person of ordinary skill
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`in the art consider FR-4 to be part of a
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`prepreg laminated layer?
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` A. I think that's a little bit backwards
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`in the way I've heard this discussed.
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` Normally, I think of a prepreg
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`laminate having the right resin composition as
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`being part of an FR-4 circuit board. But in
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`some ways, you can refer to the resin as FR-4
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`as well.
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` But it tends to be, like, a
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`higher level specification on the entire
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`assembly in the way I've heard it used.
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` Q. So can you explain to me how the FR-4
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`is part of -- how FR-4 is part of the assembly
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`that you just referred to?
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` A. So just as a -- sort of a -- just a
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`little caveat here. We're talking about one
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`type of construction, and one thing I've tried
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`to indicate in my answers is there's a range of
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`different methods that can be used to construct
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`a printed circuit board.
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` But one way of thinking of this
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`is that FR-4 can correspond to a particular
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`resin composition, and that would be what
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`the -- what the prepreg is saturated with.
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` That's why -- it's called
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`prepreg. It's impregnated with that resin
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`ahead of time, prepreg.
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` Q. And what else does the prepreg
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`consist of?
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` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, this is,
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` you know, specific to one method of
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` manufacture. I don't -- I think it's
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` important to recognize.
`
` But in this -- in using
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` prepregs, there will usually be
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` metallization. And so when you specify
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` this to an engineer, you'll usually have
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` to specify ounces of copper, as an
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` example, that are on the prepreg.
`
`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. And the ounces of copper would
`
`dictate the thickness of the copper -- a copper
`
`sheet that is on the prepreg?
`
` A. Yeah, that's typical. You can, you
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`know, have half an ounce copper. You can go up
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`to even four. There's a range of, like,
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`thicknesses is the final build of copper.
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` The prepreg sheet itself usually
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`won't have the final build of copper, depending
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`on how the pattern is created.
`
` Q. So prior to the pattern being created
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`on the prepreg, am I correct in understanding
`
`that a prepreg sheet would have some form of a
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`resin insulating board with a sheet of copper
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`laminated to it?
`
` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, in this
`
` particular type of construction method,
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` there will usually be a very first panel.
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` This is -- and it's -- we'll
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` have metallization across the surface,
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` typically a fiberglass-impregnated weave
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` underneath that as part of the layer with
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` the resin precursors in it, so
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` preimpregnated but not necessarily fully
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` cured.
`
`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. And when you say "not necessarily
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`fully cured," what are you describing?
`
` A. The final curing can include steps of
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`pressing -- you know, alignment, pressing, and
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`chemical or heat treatment that occur when you
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`make -- you make the final layup.
`
` But this -- again, that's just
`
`one method. There's -- that's one
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`commercialized method for using prepregs in the
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`multilayer circuit board.
`
` Q. Okay. You mentioned a pattern being
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`formed on the copper sheet; is that correct?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And can you describe for me the -- in
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`this type of laminated structure that we've
`
`been discussing, what the process is for the
`
`creation of that pattern?
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` A. My understanding about this is that
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`there's generally two methods that can be used.
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`One is called pattern plating, and the other is
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`like a etch-back method.
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` This is the -- but the most
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`commercialized one that I've encountered is
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`etch back. And so my understanding is that the
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`final build of copper is not on the prepreg at
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`the time of patterning, but then you do
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`nonpattern plating to get the full build once
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`you have a resist with the circuit in -- the
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`copper pattern in negative on the -- on the
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`prepreg. And so then you build up the final
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`copper, and then you can etch back.
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` So that's what I know is a
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`commercialized method that I've used.
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` You can also simply etch the
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`copper with a positive photoresist, but that
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`tends to create undercut and has some other
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`problems with -- with features being lost.
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` So -- but that is another
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`possibility.
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` Q. But, in general, what you're
`
`describing, then, is methods to remove part of
`
`the copper to reveal a desired pattern in
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`copper remaining on the prepreg?
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` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: There is a removal
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` step, and the difference between what I
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` talked about is that one is primarily
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` additive in that, you know, you primarily
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` are plating the copper to get the final
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` build and then etching back.
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` But there still is a removal
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` step. That's right. You have to remove
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` from some regions at least.
`
`BY MR. PETRSORIC:
`
` Q. So let me take this back in detail a
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`little bit.
`
` Could you describe for me, when
`
`you say "etch back," what the process -- what
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`the process is in terms of what you start with
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`in the prepreg and how you end up with the
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`prepreg with a specific copper pattern on it?
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` MR. JARRATT: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: This is a specific
`
` method that I know is used to get
`
` high-build copper, and so this is
`
` something I've had to specify.
`
` And the starting point for this
`
` particular process was copper everywhere,
`
` that being very important because that
`
` allowed plating to occur everywhere.
`
` Now, that plating -- when I say
`
` "everywhere," I don't mean -- only in
`
` selected areas where you want more build.
`
` So you pattern a photoresist
`
` over a thinner prepreg layer that's
`
` metallized. Once you have that pattern,
`
` you can imagine that there are some places
`
` that don't have photoresist, and those can
`
` be exposed to, like, an acid
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