Deposition Transcript
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`Case Number: IPR2022-00312
`Date: August 18, 2022
`
`In the matter of:
`
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.
`LTD., et al. v MYPAQ HOLDINGS
`LTD.
`
`DR. SAYFE KIAEI - PART B
`
`Reported by:
`Mary Ann Payonk
`CSR No. 13431
`
`Steno
`Official Reporters
`
`315 W 9th St.
`Suite 807
`Los Angeles, CA 90015
`concierge@steno.com
`(310) 573-8380
`NV: FIRM #108F
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 1 of 38
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`Case Number: IPR2022-00312
`Date: August 18, 2022
`
`In the matter of:
`
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO.
`LTD., et al. v MYPAQ HOLDINGS
`LTD.
`
`DR. SAYFE KIAEI - PART B
`
`Reported by:
`Mary Ann Payonk
`CSR No. 13431
`
`Steno
`Official Reporters
`
`315 W 9th St.
`Suite 807
`Los Angeles, CA 90015
`concierge@steno.com
`(310) 573-8380
`NV: FIRM #108F
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 1 of 38
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · _____________________________
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`·5· ·Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. and Dell Technologies Inc.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioners
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·Mypaq Holdings Ltd.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`10· · · · · · · · _____________________________
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`11· · · · · · · · · · Case No. IPR2022-00312
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`12· · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No. 7,675,759
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`13· · · · · · · · _____________________________
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`14
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`15
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`16· · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF DR. SAYFE KIAEI
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`17· · · · · · · TAKEN REMOTELY BY VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·August 18, 2022
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`21
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`24· ·Reported by:· Mary Ann Payonk
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`25· ·Job No. 311944(b)
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 2 of 38
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · August 18, 2022
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 6:40 p.m.
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · ·Deposition of DR. SAYFE KIAEI taken remotely by
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`10· ·videoconference pursuant to Notice and agreement of
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`11· ·counsel, stenographically reported by Mary Ann Payonk,
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`12· ·Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, CA CSR No. 13431.
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`13· · · · ·All attorneys participating in this deposition
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`14· ·acknowledge that the reporter is not physically present
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`15· ·in the deposition room and there is no objection to the
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`16· ·oath being administered remotely.
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 3 of 38
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD.:
`· · ·NEIL SIROTA, ESQ.
`·3· ·neil.sirota@bakerbotts.com
`· · ·FRANK ZHU, ESQ.
`·4· ·frank.zhu@bakerbotts.com
`· · ·BAKER BOTTS
`·5· ·30 Rockefeller Plaza
`· · ·New York, New York 10112
`·6
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`·7
`· · ·ON BEHALF OF MYPAQ HOLDINGS LTD.:
`·8· ·STEPHEN McBRIDE, ESQ.
`· · ·stevemcbride@carmichaelip.com
`·9· ·8000 Towers Crescent Drive, 13th Floor
`· · ·Tysons, VA 22182
`10
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`11
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`12· ·ON BEHALF OF DELL TECHNOLOGIES, INC.:
`· · ·BRETT J. THOMPSEN, ESQ.
`13· ·bthompsen@mwe.com
`· · ·PAULA HEYMAN, ESQ.
`14· ·pheyman@mwe.com
`· · ·McDERMOTT WILL & EMERY
`15· ·111 Congress Avenue, Suite 500
`· · ·Austin, TX 78701
`16
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`17· ·ALSO IN ATTENDANCE:
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`18· ·Tom Brown, Dell Technologies
`· · ·Bailey Watkins, Dell Technologies
`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
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`Page 4 of 38
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`·1· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· On the record, this is the
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`·2· ·deposition for the IPR2022-00312 IPR covering the '759
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`·3· ·patent.· The parties have agreed that the earlier
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`·4· ·transcript for the '514 patent can be used in this one.
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`·5· ·And I think we would take the position that we should be
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`·6· ·able to use this transcript in the earlier proceeding
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`·7· ·for the '514.· And I think petitioner is taking the
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`·8· ·other position, that we should not be able to.· I don't
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`·9· ·know, petitioner, if there's any clarification that you
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`10· ·want to add.
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`11· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY HEYMAN:· For Dell, as long as the
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`12· ·patent owner reduces the amount of time that it's taken
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`13· ·for the '759 deposition, we can agree that the '514
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`14· ·transcript can be used in the '759 deposition, or '759
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`15· ·IPR.
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`16· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY SIROTA:· And for the record, Samsung
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`17· ·would agree with that.· It sounds like that will not be
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`18· ·an issue and that the second deposition of the day will
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`19· ·be -- will take less time than the first one because we
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`20· ·are agreeing that the first one can be used in the
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`21· ·second.· So with that, I think we're set.
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`22· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· I just want to clarify that
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`23· ·I think we are going to get done in a couple hours, but
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`24· ·if for some reason it runs late, we're not agreeing not
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`25· ·to use the earlier transcript.· But let's get to the end
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
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`Page 5 of 38
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`·1· ·of this deposition and then we can hash out anything we
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`·2· ·have one way or another.
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`·3· ·SAYFE KIAEI,
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`·4· · · · · · · ·called as a witness, having been duly
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`·5· · · · · · · ·sworn, was examined and testified as
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`·6· · · · · · · ·follows:
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·8· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Welcome back, Dr. Kiaei.
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`10· · · · A.· ·Thank you, sir.· You too.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·So just to be clear, you understand that this
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`12· ·deposition is for the '759 patent.· Correct?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir, it is.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·And this is the 00312 IPR.· Correct?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir, it is correct.
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`16· · · · Q.· ·We had discussed earlier today for the '514
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`17· ·patent that the '514 and the '759 patent are related.
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`18· ·Correct?
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`19· · · · A.· ·That is correct, yes.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·I just want to confirm whether there are any
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`21· ·claim terms present in both patents that you believe
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`22· ·should be interpreted differently between the two
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`23· ·patents.
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`24· · · · A.· ·Not at this point, to the best of my
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`25· ·knowledge.
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
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`Page 6 of 38
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·Well, please let me know --
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`·2· · · · A.· ·Sure.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·-- if anything comes up.
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`·4· · · · · · ·Go ahead and turn to the '759 patent.
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`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes, I'm there.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Bear with me one second.
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`·7· · · · A.· ·No problem.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·If you take a look at the front page of the
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`·9· ·'759 patent, the priority dates back to a continuation
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`10· ·in part filed on December 1, 2006.· Correct?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·That is correct, yes, sir.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·And we had discussed earlier that you're using
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`13· ·the December 1, 2006 date for the priority date here.
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`14· ·Correct?
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`15· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
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`16· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Let's go ahead and turn to
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`17· ·your declaration.· This will be Exhibit 1002 in the
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`18· ·'759, for the '759 patent.
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`19· · · · (Exhibit No. 1002, previously marked, was
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`20· · · · referenced and indexed.)
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`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· All right, I have it open.
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`22· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Let's go to Paragraph 35 and 34.· 34 and 35,
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`24· ·rather.
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`25· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·This is the level of ordinary skill in the
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`·2· ·art.· Correct?
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`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
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`·4· · · · Q.· ·These appear to be the same definitions that
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`·5· ·you were using for the '514 patent.· Correct?
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`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`·7· · · · Q.· ·And you're not aware of any differences
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`·8· ·between the two definitions.· Correct?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·No, sir.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Let's turn to Claim 1 of the '759 patent.· And
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`11· ·let's go to the second-to-last line of Claim 1.
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`12· · · · A.· ·Line 53?
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, thereabouts.
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`14· · · · A.· ·Okay.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·So you see the claim term "operating
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`16· ·efficiency"?
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`17· · · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·What's your understanding of the plain and
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`19· ·ordinary meaning of that term?
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`20· · · · A.· ·So in Claim 1, in that element it's talking
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`21· ·about thereby regulating an internal operating
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`22· ·characteristics of said power converter to improve an
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`23· ·operating efficiency thereof as a function of said
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`24· ·system operational stage.
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`25· · · · · · ·So by having -- switching the frequency when
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 8 of 38
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`·1· ·the -- when the printer or the load changes the stage,
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`·2· ·thereby they go into a different switching frequency.
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`·3· ·You're changing the operation of the converter and
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`·4· ·thereby reducing -- if you are reducing and going to a
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`·5· ·lower power mode, you're reducing the -- by reducing the
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`·6· ·frequency, you're reducing the switching frequency and
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`·7· ·you're reducing the power losses associated with those
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`·8· ·switching and losses of the switches and thereby
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`·9· ·improving the efficiency of the power converter.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·How do you measure operating efficiency?
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`11· · · · A.· ·How do you measure the operating frequency?
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`12· · · · Q.· ·Efficiency.· Operating efficiency.
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`13· · · · A.· ·How do you measure that?
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`14· · · · · · ·(Interruption, reporter rejoined.)
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`15· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Do you want me to repeat
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`16· ·the question?
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`17· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· It would make a clearer record.
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`18· ·Thank you.
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`19· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
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`20· · · · Q.· ·How do you measure operating efficiency?
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`21· · · · A.· ·You look at the power -- the losses of the
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`22· ·power conversion and minimize the losses.· It is a power
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`23· ·converter efficiency in terms of components of it having
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`24· ·losses.· And by changing the switching speed or the
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`25· ·switching frequency of the switching elements, those
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
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`·1· ·components are one of the larger losses associated with
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`·2· ·the power converters and that improves the efficiency,
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`·3· ·which is how much power losses you have in performing
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`·4· ·the conversion.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·So is operating efficiency essentially a
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`·6· ·measure of power out against power in for the power
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`·7· ·converter?
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`·8· · · · A.· ·In general, yes.· There are different
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`·9· ·definitions of efficiency and power efficiency, but in
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`10· ·general, yes, how much loss is associated with a
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`11· ·regulator itself because you are supplying it with a
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`12· ·certain supply, power supply.· And at the output of that
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`13· ·is a regulated power supply, so the amount of losses in
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`14· ·there that impacts the efficiency.
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`15· · · · Q.· ·Take a look at '759 patent, Claim 2.· And do
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`16· ·you see the term "transition time"?
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`17· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·What's your understanding of the plain and
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`19· ·ordinary meaning of the term "transition time"?
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`20· · · · A.· ·In the scope of the patent and the claim, it's
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`21· ·the transition time of the power converter from one
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`22· ·state to another state.· So it's the time that it takes
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`23· ·to go from one state to another state of operation in
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`24· ·the power converter.
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`25· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Let's go ahead and take a
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`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 10 of 38
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`·1· ·look at the Hirst reference, which is Exhibit 1003 in
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`·2· ·the '759 IPR.· That is the 312 IPR.
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`·3· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Is that Hirst?
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`·4· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Hirst, yeah.
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`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.
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`·6· · · · (Exhibit No. 1003, previously marked, was
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`·7· · · · referenced and indexed.)
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`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay, I have Hirst open.
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`·9· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Hirst is directed to a multiple frequency
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`11· ·switching power supply.· Correct?
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`12· · · · A.· ·That is correct, sir, yes.
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`13· · · · Q.· ·Can you turn to Hirst Figure 1.· Let me know
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`14· ·when you're there.
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`15· · · · A.· ·Sure.· One second, I'm almost there.· I'm in
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`16· ·Figure 1.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·Hirst Figure 1 is a simplified block diagram
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`18· ·of a laser printer.· Correct?
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`19· · · · A.· ·It's a simplified block diagram of a printer
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`20· ·is Figure 1.· I don't think they call it a laser
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`21· ·printer.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·Well, I'll respectfully disagree, but --
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`23· · · · A.· ·Oh, you're right.· You're correct.· It is
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`24· ·laser printer.
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`25· · · · Q.· ·It's irrelevant.
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`·1· · · · A.· ·Yeah, no, it is a laser printer.· You're
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`·2· ·right.· You're correct.· It is a laser printer.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·So you see the box marked 22 that's the power
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`·4· ·monitor?
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`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes, I see box -- the power monitor, yes.
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·The inputs for the power monitor are the
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`·7· ·outputs from the primary power supply 24 and MF
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`·8· ·switching power supply 12.· Correct?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·That's what's shown in there, in that figure,
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`10· ·yes.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·So the power monitor is essentially monitoring
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`12· ·the power coming out of those two power supplies.
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`13· ·Correct?
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`14· · · · A.· ·The power monitor receives and sends a signal
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`15· ·to multifrequency switching power supply.· It is also
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`16· ·connected to the primary power source and is also
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`17· ·connected to the print engine controller 18.
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`18· · · · Q.· ·But that power monitor 22 is -- what it's
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`19· ·monitoring is the power out of the power supplies 12 and
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`20· ·24.· Correct?
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`21· · · · A.· ·So I discuss this also in Paragraph 58 of my
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`22· ·declaration, and I say that the -- Hirst discloses that
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`23· ·in some embodiments, signals from the power consumption
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`24· ·monitor 22 directly control the switching frequency of
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`25· ·an MF switching power supply.· However, Hirst also
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`·1· ·discloses that the signals from the power consumption
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`·2· ·monitor 22 signals indicating system operation state of
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`·3· ·the load are also true and received by the print engine
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`·4· ·controller 88, the power system controller.
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`·5· · · · · · ·And I talk about the paragraph in Hirst in
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`·6· ·column 8, 27 to 33.· And then later I talk about the
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`·7· ·fact that in -- that the -- in response to the signal
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`·8· ·from the power monitor 22 of 21, illustrating signal
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`·9· ·from power monitor 22 to the controller -- the power
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`10· ·monitor.· Not the printer.· I -- I misspoke there.· The
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`11· ·power monitor is connected to the controller.· It is
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`12· ·connected to the multifrequency switching power
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`13· ·converter.
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`14· · · · · · ·What I mean by controller is controller 18,
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`15· ·which is the print engine controller 18.· It is
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`16· ·connected to the -- or the power system controller.· It
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`17· ·is connected to the multifrequency switching power
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`18· ·converter 12, and it is also connected to the primary
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`19· ·power supply.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Sorry, Doctor, but it seems like in Figure 1
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`21· ·power monitor 22 is obviously monitoring the power, and
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`22· ·it seems like it's monitoring the power from those two
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`23· ·power supplies 12 and 24.
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`24· · · · · · ·Is that correct?
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`25· · · · A.· ·Let me repeat myself again.· Maybe I wasn't
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`·1· ·clear.· The power monitor is connected to the
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`·2· ·multifunction switching power supply 12 bidirectionally,
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`·3· ·which is changing the multifunction switching supply
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`·4· ·frequency or multifrequency, is connected to the primary
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`·5· ·power source.· And it is also connected to the
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`·6· ·controller which is the power system controller 18 that
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`·7· ·is power monitor sending the power -- sending the
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`·8· ·information to the power controller 18.
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`·9· · · · Q.· ·I understand that, Doctor.· But my question is
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`10· ·just about the function of the power monitor and what
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`11· ·it's doing here in Figure 1.
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`12· · · · · · ·And it looks very clear from the picture that
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`13· ·the power monitor is monitoring the power from those
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`14· ·power supplies 12 and 24.
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`15· · · · · · ·Do you disagree with that?
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`16· · · · A.· ·It is monitoring the power within the primary
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`17· ·power supply, and it's also connected bidirectionally to
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`18· ·the multifrequency switching power supply.
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`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So that answer's for the primary power
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`20· ·supply.
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`21· · · · · · ·For the multifrequency switching power supply,
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`22· ·there is a bidirectional arrow, as you point out, and
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`23· ·you've discussed several times that the power monitor is
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`24· ·controlling the switching in the power supply.· And I
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`25· ·assume that's the arrow going to the power supply.· But
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`·1· ·the other arrow going to the power monitor, that's the
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`·2· ·power of the power supply.· Correct?
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`·3· · · · A.· ·It is looking at the power of the
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`·4· ·multifrequency switching power supply as well, yes,
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`·5· ·correct.
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·Let's turn to Figure 5 of Hirst.· Figure 5 is
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`·7· ·a simplified schematic diagram of a multiple frequency
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`·8· ·switching power supply in accordance with an embodiment
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`·9· ·of the present invention in accordance with the
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`10· ·embodiment of Hirst.· Correct?
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`11· · · · · · ·And I was just reading from column 3, line 43.
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`12· · · · A.· ·Yes, correct.· I agree with that.
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`13· · · · Q.· ·And then the elements marked 46 and 48, these
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`14· ·are two oscillators, right?
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`15· · · · A.· ·They are.· They are two frequency generation
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`16· ·or two oscillators, yes.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·What's the function of an oscillator?
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`18· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Objection, form.
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`19· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
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`20· · · · Q.· ·And I guess we can specify with that.· As
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`21· ·they're being used in Figure 5, what's their function?
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`22· · · · A.· ·Their primary function within the scope of
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`23· ·this patent is the oscillators 46 and 48 are generating
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`24· ·the clock signal sources for the -- the clock signal
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`25· ·sources or the generators -- yeah, the clock signal
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`·1· ·sources at two different frequencies, one at F low and
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`·2· ·one at F high.
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`·3· · · · Q.· ·The element marked 40 there is the pulse width
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`·4· ·modulation circuit.· Correct?
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`·5· · · · A.· ·40 is the pulse width modulation module or
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`·6· ·block.
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`·7· · · · Q.· ·And 42 is the input to the pulse width
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`·8· ·modulation circuit 40.· Correct?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·That is correct, yes.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·And just going to the right, the element
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`11· ·marked 44 is a switch.· Correct?
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`12· · · · A.· ·It is a switch, which controls -- which
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`13· ·switches between the 48 or 46, between them, yes.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·So depending on how that switch is set, the
`
`15· ·pulse width modulation circuit input 42 is either a high
`
`16· ·frequency or a low frequency.· Correct?
`
`17· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Objection.
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Well, that shows it as a switch.· There's, you
`
`19· ·know, there's -- on -- that is a -- that switch 44 is --
`
`20· ·it's switching between the two oscillators 46 and 48.
`
`21· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·And if it switched to oscillator 48, it's in
`
`23· ·the lower frequency.· Correct?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·48 is in the lower frequency, yes.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·And then when it switches to 46, it's at a
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 16 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·higher frequency.· Correct?
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Controller 18 sends a signal that tells switch
`
`·4· ·44 to switch between oscillators 46 and 48.· Correct?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·The multifrequency switching power supply
`
`·6· ·switches from F high, first clock frequency F high to
`
`·7· ·the second clock frequency in response to the commands
`
`·8· ·from the controller 18.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·The element 37 in Hirst Figure 5 is a voltage
`
`10· ·divider.· Correct?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·In Figure 5?
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Yeah, at the top.· It's shown on the top right
`
`13· ·corner of Figure 5.· But anyway, that's a voltage
`
`14· ·divider.· Correct?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·That is a voltage divider between the
`
`16· ·resistors R1 and R2, which is sending the output signal
`
`17· ·back, back to the pulse width modulator.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·In that signal, the output signal from the
`
`19· ·voltage divider is what pulse width modulation circuit
`
`20· ·40 uses to vary the duty cycle.· Correct?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Well, within the pulse width modulator there
`
`22· ·is a controller for the power converter, which is
`
`23· ·looking at that signal and, based on that, makes a
`
`24· ·determination on -- based on the feedback from the
`
`25· ·output signal, it changes the duty cycle of the
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 17 of 38
`
`
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`·1· ·switching transistor 34.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·When you say feedback from the output signal,
`
`·3· ·are you talking about the voltage coming from the
`
`·4· ·voltage divider?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.· It is pretty common that we, when we do
`
`·6· ·a voltage feedback, we do a voltage divider like this.
`
`·7· ·And then the voltage coming back is then fed back to the
`
`·8· ·power converter controller.· Then based on that, then
`
`·9· ·the power converter controller will determine the
`
`10· ·appropriate duty cycle of the switching transistor 34.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·When you're saying power converter controller,
`
`12· ·does Hirst use the term "power converter controller"?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·Hirst does not use that specific language;
`
`14· ·however, it does describe in column 6 the various
`
`15· ·aspects of that operation, column 6, line 1 through line
`
`16· ·20.
`
`17· · · · · · ·And performing those operations is controlling
`
`18· ·the duty cycle, controlling the -- it is the controller,
`
`19· ·is the power converter controller.· Person of skill in
`
`20· ·the art would understand that those functionalities are
`
`21· ·part of a power system controller.· Sorry, power --
`
`22· ·power converter controller.· Please erase the "power
`
`23· ·system controller."· I meant power converter controller.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Is a pulse width modulation circuit 40, is
`
`25· ·that the power converter controller, in your opinion?
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 18 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·Not that by itself.· That is part of the power
`
`·2· ·converter controller.· But the combination of that and
`
`·3· ·the oscillator circuits, the switch, and the topology
`
`·4· ·and the circuits within the pulse width modulation,
`
`·5· ·etc., which I have shown in the multiple places in my
`
`·6· ·report, declaration of '759, for example, on page --
`
`·7· ·right above Paragraph 65 I have put a highlighted --
`
`·8· ·gray highlight around the power converter controller.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Let's take a look at Paragraph 123 of your
`
`10· ·declaration for the '759 patent.
`
`11· · · · A.· ·I'm there.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·And I guess actually, just for the record,
`
`13· ·Paragraphs 122 through 124 are your opinions with
`
`14· ·respect to ground 1B.· Correct?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Yes.· This is when I discuss that Hirst
`
`16· ·renders obviousness Claims 1 to 3, 5 to 13, and 15 to
`
`17· ·20.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·So I wanted to clarify this section, and in
`
`19· ·particular, 123.
`
`20· · · · · · ·Is the point of this section just for you to
`
`21· ·argue that the various different disclosures from Hirst
`
`22· ·in different embodiments that you cited for ground 1 can
`
`23· ·be combined together even if they are from different
`
`24· ·embodiments?
`
`25· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Objection, form.
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 19 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Dr. Kiaei, do you understand what I'm asking?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·I believe I do.· I think what you're
`
`·4· ·discussing is that -- is the first couple of lines of
`
`·5· ·Paragraph 123.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· If you want me to clarify a little bit,
`
`·7· ·I can --
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·Please do, yes.· I think we're getting a
`
`·9· ·little bit -- please do, yes.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·So when I read this section, it seems to me
`
`11· ·like you're essentially arguing that you've cited a
`
`12· ·bunch of different embodiments in ground 1 from Hirst,
`
`13· ·and a POSITA would understand to combine those
`
`14· ·arguments -- those embodiments, excuse me.
`
`15· · · · · · ·But some of the statements later on seem to
`
`16· ·indicate that maybe you're relying on parts of Hirst
`
`17· ·that you hadn't cited above, and I just want to make
`
`18· ·sure that what you're doing here is trying to make sure
`
`19· ·that you're combining the embodiments -- make sure that
`
`20· ·it's clear that a POSITA could combine the various
`
`21· ·different embodiments of Hirst you've cited in ground 1A
`
`22· ·and not trying to rely on additional parts of Hirst that
`
`23· ·maybe you haven't explicitly disclosed.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Does that make sense?
`
`25· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Was the question complete?
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 20 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Yes, yes.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Objection, form.
`
`·3· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Does what I'm asking make sense to you,
`
`·5· ·Dr. Kiaei?
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·To some extent.· I guess I -- from what I
`
`·7· ·understand is that is the objective of the
`
`·8· ·Paragraph 123 -- based on combining the different
`
`·9· ·embodiments of Hirst?· Or do I have a different
`
`10· ·objective in that paragraph?· Am I correct?
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Yes, basically, yeah.
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Basically?· Okay.
`
`13· · · · · · ·I mean, what I'm discussing there are the
`
`14· ·different illustrations that Hirst discusses in these
`
`15· ·figures.
`
`16· · · · · · ·And an example.· If I'm looking at the Hirst
`
`17· ·column 4, I'm looking at this -- it discussing that when
`
`18· ·it's in standby mode, line 45 to 47, it says in one
`
`19· ·embodiment, the second clock cycle has a frequency that
`
`20· ·is 1/10 -- 1/100 of the frequency of the first clock
`
`21· ·cycle.· So in this case, it's discussing the different
`
`22· ·frequencies by which it is operating, the power
`
`23· ·converter is operating from a standby to a normal mode.
`
`24· · · · · · ·And then in Figure 2 it talks about it in
`
`25· ·terms of the multifrequency switching supply 30, which
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 21 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·is providing the -- which is used for multiple frequency
`
`·2· ·switching supply 12 of Figure 1, and so on and so forth.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·So I think what I'm discussing there is that
`
`·4· ·looking at these different descriptions that Hirst has
`
`·5· ·in terms of Figure 1, the high level block diagram; and
`
`·6· ·Figure 2 in terms of the power converter section of
`
`·7· ·that; Figure 5, the -- more details of that; and then
`
`·8· ·Figure 6.· These different figures, they all really
`
`·9· ·are -- he's teaching all these different concepts going
`
`10· ·back to Figure 1.
`
`11· · · · · · ·So the person of skill in the art would be
`
`12· ·able to look at and combine these different figures and
`
`13· ·descriptions that it has, which I call it in the
`
`14· ·Paragraph 124 combining these different embodiments that
`
`15· ·Hirst discusses to render obvious claims that I discuss
`
`16· ·in this section.
`
`17· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Is now a good time for a
`
`18· ·short break?
`
`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, that's great, thank you.
`
`20· · · · (Recess taken.)
`
`21· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY SIROTA:· We've agreed that objections
`
`22· ·made by Dell would be applicable to Samsung and that
`
`23· ·Samsung need not make the same objection.· Is that fair?
`
`24· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· That's fair with me.
`
`25· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY SIROTA:· Okay, good.· Just wanted to
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 22 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·put that in this record as well.· Thanks.
`
`·2· ·BY ATTORNEY McBRIDE:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Dr. Kiaei, can you go ahead and turn to
`
`·4· ·Paragraph 202 of your declaration for the '759.· Let me
`
`·5· ·know when you're there.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir, I'm there.· 202, correct?
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·That's correct.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·So do you see -- well, the first sentence is
`
`·9· ·the entire paragraph, but maybe to short-circuit, just
`
`10· ·go down four lines where it starts:· A POSITA, in my
`
`11· ·opinion, would have understood or at least found
`
`12· ·obvious -- found it obvious that the microprocessor
`
`13· ·within smart load 104 could include an internal control
`
`14· ·unit that controls the internal operations of the
`
`15· ·microprocessor.
`
`16· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`17· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·So we're talking about Hwang here, right?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Hwang doesn't mention an internal control unit
`
`21· ·in the microprocessor.· Correct?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Hwang does not directly discuss a control unit
`
`23· ·within the microprocessor.· I don't believe it does.
`
`24· ·But give me a -- let me look at it for a second to be
`
`25· ·certain, open up Hwang again.
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 23 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·At least in one instance it does discuss this
`
`·2· ·relationship between the -- well, at least as an example
`
`·3· ·it says that the -- for example, for the load 104 is a
`
`·4· ·microprocessor or controller in Paragraph 21, but it
`
`·5· ·does not directly discuss that the microprocessor does
`
`·6· ·have a internal control unit.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·But I do discuss that later on in the
`
`·8· ·Paragraph 20 -- 203 where I described a microprocessor
`
`·9· ·textbook and the operation of that.· And that's a
`
`10· ·well-known concept for a person of skill in the art.
`
`11· ·And that's actually -- the controller of the control
`
`12· ·unit in the microprocessor is -- within the
`
`13· ·microprocessor is well established.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·So staying in Paragraph 203, you've got --
`
`15· ·you've put Figure 1.1 of the Money exhibit.· Are you
`
`16· ·saying that the CPU in Figure 1.1 is an internal control
`
`17· ·unit of a microprocessor?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·In general, as shown in the Figure 1.1, the
`
`19· ·processor or the central processing unit of a
`
`20· ·microprocessor, it has a control unit where the control
`
`21· ·unit is responsible for the timing, getting the data,
`
`22· ·sending that data from the memory to the execution unit,
`
`23· ·controlling the input/output, operations of the ALU or
`
`24· ·arithmetic logic unit, and so forth.
`
`25· · · · · · ·That is a -- you know, when we teach a
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 24 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·microprocessor course, and practically in every course
`
`·2· ·in there, the microprocessor, within that, there's a
`
`·3· ·controller which is performing these operations.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Go ahead.
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Yeah, that's it.· That's all I have, yeah.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Nothing in -- well, I guess let's rephrase
`
`·7· ·that.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·Money isn't talking about sending a standby
`
`·9· ·signal to a power converter, right?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Money?· You mean the Figure 1.1?
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Yes, Exhibit 1015, Money.
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Well, no.· Money is -- I use Money as a basic
`
`13· ·architecture of a microprocessor, and it does have a
`
`14· ·ability to send signals, input/output signals that the
`
`15· ·controller can control for sending those signals to
`
`16· ·control other blocks for sending data, etc.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So I -- that's a pretty basic architecture of
`
`18· ·a microprocessor.· I mean, that goes back to -- reminds
`
`19· ·me of my course in 1980 when I first took the first
`
`20· ·microprocessor on an Intel 4044, or 8088, 6800 Motorola,
`
`21· ·and so on.
`
`22· · · · · · ·And I've taught a course on microprocessors
`
`23· ·and computer processors back in the '80s in Oregon
`
`24· ·state.· I mean, that's a pretty well-known terminology,
`
`25· ·that there is a controller within the processor and
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 25 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·that's, I mean, various signals in performing the
`
`·2· ·executions of the different instructions coming from the
`
`·3· ·instruction set and so forth.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·Money is used to show the controller, and
`
`·5· ·person of skill in the art would understand that that
`
`·6· ·controller will have a capabilities of sending signals
`
`·7· ·and control signals outside.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·But again, nothing in Money talks about
`
`·9· ·sending a standby signal to the power converter, to a
`
`10· ·power converter.· Correct?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·Not in Money.· But Hwang discusses that, and
`
`12· ·Hwang discusses that the microprocessor over that
`
`13· ·controller is -- the load is a smart load, and that
`
`14· ·smartness comes from the actual microprocessor
`
`15· ·architecture.· And that's pretty elementary EE 200 level
`
`16· ·things we cover in our courses.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So I don't believe that an undergraduate in EE
`
`18· ·or even computer science would get out not understanding
`
`19· ·the basic operation of the microprocessor and the
`
`20· ·controller within that.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·How did you pick the term "internal control
`
`22· ·unit"?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·In my report?
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Uh-huh.
`
`25· · · · A.· ·It is a control unit internal to the
`
`MyPAQ, Exhibit 2021
`IPR2022-00311
`Page 26 of 38
`
`
`
`·1· ·microprocessor, which is a smart load.· I mean, I wanted
`
`·2· ·to differentiate -- I wanted to make sure that it is --
`
`·3· ·I'm discussing the internal control unit of the
`
`·4· ·microprocessor, so ...
`
`·5· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· That's all the questions I
`
`·6· ·have.· Do you guys want to go off the record for a few
`
`·7· ·moments?
`
`·8· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Yes, let's go off the
`
`·9· ·record for a couple moments and let's say meet back in
`
`10· ·like three, four minutes.
`
`11· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY McBRIDE:· Yeah, that works.
`
`12· · · · (Recess taken.)
`
`13· · · · · · ·ATTORNEY THOMPSEN:· Okay, before we conclude I
`
`14· ·just want to go on the record and say we reserve the
`
`15· ·right to review and sign.· And with that, we have no
`
`16· ·questions, so I think we can conclude.· Thank you.
`
`17· · · · · · ·THE REP
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