UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. et al.
` Petitioner
`
` -v-
`
`MEMORYWEB, LLC
` Patent Owner
`* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
` Patent No. 10,621,228
` Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-00222
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN
`
`Zoom examination taken by agreement of counsel on
`Friday, August 26, 2022, commencing at 10:10 a.m.
`
` Court Reporter via Zoom:
` Elaine J. Ritsema, LCR
` LCR No. 92 (RSA 310-A)
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2022
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`

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`Page 3
`
` STIPULATIONS
`
` It is agreed that the deposition shall be taken
`in the first instance in stenotype and when
`transcribed may be used for all purposes for which
`depositions are competent under United States Patent
`and Trademark Office Rules.
` Notice, filing, caption and all other
`formalities are waived. All objections except as to
`form are reserved and may be taken in court at time
`of trial.
` It is further agreed that if the deposition is
`not signed within thirty (30) days after submission
`to counsel, the signature of the witness is waived.
`
`Page 5
`
` DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN,
`
`having been first duly sworn under RSA 310-a:181,
`Limited Notarial Function, was deposed and testified
`as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Greenspun. Could you
`please state and spell your full name for the
`record.
` A Good morning. It's Philip, P-H-I-L-I-P,
`Greenspun. That's green S-P-U-N.
`G-R-E-E-N-S-P-U-N.
` Q Thank you.
` And then are you able to see the AgileLaw
`portal where we circulated the login?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. And if I'm doing this wrong,
`let me know; but are you able to see a notice of
`deposition document?
` A I think that I can see that as Document 1.
` Q Yes. It would be Document 1.
` A Okay.
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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`Page 2
` APPEARANCES VIA ZOOM:
`For the Petitioner:
`FISH & RICHARDSON
`1180 Peachtree Street NE
`Atlanta, GA 30309
`By: Christopher Green, Esq.
`cgreen@fr.com
`-and-
`By: Samuel S. Kim, Esq.
`skim@fr.com
`404-892-5005
`
`For the Patent Owner:
`NIXON PEABODY
`70 West Madison Street
`Chicago, IL 60602
`By: Matthew A. Werber, Esq.
`mwerber@nixonpeabody.com
`312-977-4458
`
`Page 4
`
` INDEX
`WITNESS:
`DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN
`EXAMINATION: Page
`
`By Mr. Werber 5
`
`EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION:
` Number Page
`2018 Internet Archive Pages 24
`2019 Compendium of Images 78
`2020 Takakura 93
`
`* Exhibits retained by counsel
`
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`Page 6
`
` Q And do you -- so this is a notice of
`deposition caption. Patent notice of deposition of
`Dr. Philip Greenspun. This is a deposition notice
`asking you to appear and testify under oath in
`relation to the matter captioned at the top. Do you
`understand you are here to testify about your
`opinions in this case?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you understand you are here to provide
`truthful and accurate answers in response to my
`questions?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you understand the oath just
`administered is the same oath that would be used in
`a courtroom in front of a judge and jury,
`notwithstanding the remote nature of this deposition
`arrangement?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there anything that you can think of
`that may prevent you from hearing my questions and
`understanding my questions today?
` A Well, until about noon there's three guys
`who are working here trying to take the mold out of
`the air conditioning system. That's a very Florida
`
`Page 8
`
`Florida.
` Q I visited Jupiter last June. We've got a
`cousin there. Very nice there.
` Are there any devices operating in the
`room that you're sitting in, besides the computer
`you are using for Zoom?
` A I have my phone here on silent per the
`court reporter's instructions, there's a laptop and
`a briefcase, and there's a closed laptop just behind
`me that is off the Internet. It's just got some
`source code for review on it.
` Q Okay. And just as an instruction, would
`you mind turning the smartphone off?
` A No. That's okay. I was only keeping it
`on in case the air conditioning people called but
`they're here.
` Q Okay. They're here. Okay. Thank you.
` A Okay. Now it's off.
` Q Okay. So here are a few instructions so
`we're clear on the rules. You have been deposed
`many times before, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Approximately how many?
` A Approximately at least 20 times.
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`Page 7
`
`issue.
` So occasionally there may be some
`background noise, and I may have to ask you to
`repeat a question, and I actually will have to take
`a short break at some time to look at the evaporator
`coils myself. But other than -- by the time they
`leave, there shouldn't be any issues.
` Q That's absolutely fine. And with or
`without any kind of air conditioning repairs or home
`improvement, regardless, if you do not hear a
`question, please ask me to restate, or we can have
`our court reporter read it back to you. We want to
`make sure the transcript is clear and we don't move
`forward without you hearing or understanding what's
`being asked.
` Is there anything you can think of that --
`assuming you hear the question and understand the
`question, is there anything else you can think of
`that may prevent you from testifying truthfully?
` A No.
` Q Can you tell me where you are sitting
`today?
` A I'm in Abacoa, which is a MacArthur
`Foundation created neighborhood within Jupiter,
`
`Page 9
` Q And I believe you said you are in Jupiter,
`Florida. You're at your residence?
` A Yes, that's right. I'm at home.
` Q Okay. Can you tell us the address?
` A Sure. It's what I had just given to the
`court reporter off the record; but on the record
`it's 133 Barcelona Drive, Jupiter, Florida, 33458.
` Q Thank you.
` So back -- just a few ground rules. We've
`covered it before and you've been through
`depositions many times. Today I'll do my best to
`ask clear and direct questions you're able to
`understand. If you do not understand a question or
`would like clarification, please speak up; and I
`will rephrase. Or if you didn't hear it right, you
`can even ask the court reporter to read it back.
` We're doing this remotely through
`videoconference, but we still have a court reporter
`doing her best to record into written form what is
`said for a written transcript. To help her out,
`please answer verbally with words, yes or no, rather
`than nodding your head and other gestures. Does
`that make sense?
` A Yes.
`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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`

`Page 10
` Q A few minutes ago Mr. Green, Chris Green,
`introduced himself as your attorney for this
`deposition. Do you understand he is here -- he is
`here on behalf of Samsung?
` A Yes. That's my understanding.
` Q Mr. Green may choose to object to some of
`my questions. If he does, please, allow him time to
`make that objection; and then you can proceed with
`answering afterwards.
` Sometimes just pausing after I ask the
`question may help the court reporter so we don't
`have multiple voices speaking at once.
` An objection does not mean you should not
`answer. That is unless the attorney tells you not
`to answer for reasons of privilege, which I will
`hope -- I would assume and hope we won't need to get
`into.
` Without -- I'm at no -- does that make
`sense?
` A Yes.
` Q Without getting into the specifics of
`conversations between you and counsel, can you
`generally tell me what you did to prepare for
`today's deposition, if anything?
`
`Page 12
`
`counsel; is that fair?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you speak with any Samsung, you know,
`internal, in-house attorneys, or any employees of
`Samsung to your knowledge in preparation for today's
`deposition?
` A No.
` Q So you spoke with attorneys from Fish &
`Richardson, you had that videoconference you
`mentioned through Zoom for about four hours, you,
`you know, reviewed some written materials from
`this -- from this proceeding. Besides those items
`that you just mentioned, do you recall doing
`anything else to prepare for today's testimony?
` A Not really. I mean, I think I also looked
`at Okamura and Belitz a little bit. Their
`references are primarily cited in my report, but
`that -- that's -- what I said before I think is
`everything that I can remember right now.
` Q That is fine. Thank you. Thank you.
` And so let's go to Exhibit 1001, which has
`already been marked as an exhibit by virtue of the
`way that the PTAB operates. That is the 228 patent.
`And my question for you is -- there may be a way on
`
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`Page 11
` MR. GREEN: Before Dr. Greenspun answers,
`if I may, I appreciate your appearance at the
`deposition. I would like to note that just for
`clarity, I am appearing today both on behalf of
`Samsung and the witness, Dr. Greenspun.
` MR. WERBER: Okay.
` A What did I do to prepare? I reread my
`declaration.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q Mm-hmm.
` A -- I read the institution decision from
`the PTAB, and I met with counsel for a total of
`about four hours by Zoom. That's all that I can
`think of right now.
` Q And when you refer to meeting with
`counsel, was that over a videoconference or a
`telephone call?
` A Zoom.
` Q Zoom. Okay.
` And when you refer to meeting with
`counsel, are you referring to counsel for --
`attorneys from Fish & Richardson?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And I would call that outside
`
`Page 13
`AgileLaw for you to download it; and, if not, I'll
`insert it in the chat.
` A I mean, I have what I think is a correct
`copy of this in my computer already; but I don't see
`a way to download this from AgileLaw.
` Q Let me share my screen real quick.
`Actually, this might even be easier. Do you see a
`big, red button in your upper right-hand-side
`corner?
` A Leave session?
` Q Yes.
` A I do.
` Q Is there a tiny, little box in the corner
`where you might be able to hit download or anything
`like that?
` A No.
` Q Okay. I will add some things to chat.
` A While you're doing that, if it's okay, can
`we go off the record for a few minutes? I've been
`summonsed regarding the evaporator coil.
` MR. WERBER: Let's do that and we'll take
`five or so minutes, whatever time you need; and in
`the meantime I'll upload a bunch of stuff in chat.
`Okay?
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
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`Page 14
`
` THE WITNESS: Very good.
` MR. WERBER: Okay. Thank you.
`(Recess taken from 10:23 am to 10:37 am.)
` MR. WERBER: We can go back on the record
`now.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q So we just returned from being off the
`record. Dr. Greenspun had to step out to deal with
`something happening at his house. During the break
`I uploaded or posted to chat a few different
`exhibits. One of them I did the wrong copy of the
`same exhibit, and so I just made sure that counsel
`and everybody on the phone understand that when I'm
`talking about Exhibit 1005 Okamura, we should be
`using the one that's called Ex. 1005-Samsung and
`make sure we're looking at that.
` Dr. Greenspun, I will also just give you
`one more instruction on the record. We would like
`for you to -- obviously you have your laptop open to
`be using Zoom. You may, if you want, open your PDF
`application to look at the exhibits I'm uploading to
`the chat; but, please -- and I want you to confirm
`that this is the only thing you are opening and
`looking at during the deposition, which are the
`
`Page 16
`in Jupiter, Florida, there's a signature block; and
`that is your signature, right, Dr. Greenspun?
` A It is.
` Q Okay. Let's talk about the declaration.
`Without revealing any conversation between you and
`counsel, can you tell me who wrote the declaration?
` A Well, I certainly don't want to take
`credit for at least one section, which is -- oh, I
`have a hard copy of my declaration printed out. Do
`you want me not to use that?
` Q If that's easier but I just want
`confirmation from you that that copy is a clean
`copy.
` A It is. I just printed it last night. So
`it doesn't have any markings on it or anything.
` Q Okay.
` A So there's a section that begins at page
`13 called legal standards, and it goes to page 18, I
`guess. Anyway, I didn't have any -- anything to do
`with that section.
` Q Sure.
` A But other than that I wrote this
`declaration.
` Q Approximately how long did it take to
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`Page 15
`
`exhibits that I'm posting to chat.
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Not even your own copies of the
`same exhibit. I just want a clean record that we're
`only using what I'm sharing in this ecosystem. Is
`that okay?
` A Okay.
` Q So I have shared Exhibit 1001, which is
`the 228 patent. Do you have that? And if you need
`a minute to download all the different things,
`please let me know.
` A I think I have them all downloaded now.
` Q Okay.
` A I have the 228 patent that's Exhibit 1001.
` Q Perfect. And you recognize Exhibit 1001
`as US patent No. 10,621,228.
` A Yes.
` Q Let's skip to Exhibit 1003.
` A Okay.
` Q Do you recognize Exhibit 1003 as the
`declaration you submitted that went with the
`petition in this matter?
` A Yes.
` Q And on page 1 it says December 3rd, 2021
`
`Page 17
`
`prepare this declaration?
` A I don't remember but I think at least --
`at least 50 hours, probably.
` Q And you testified that you worked with
`counsel to help with certain sections such as a
`legal standards section, right?
` MR. GREEN: Objection to form. I think
`it's slightly mischaracterizing Dr. Greenspun's
`testimony but you may answer.
` A Just that counsel entirely wrote the legal
`standards section, yes.
` Q Okay. So at least in that capacity --
`counsel assisted with the preparation of the
`declaration at least in that capacity?
` A Yes.
` Q And you're referring to attorneys at Fish
`& Richardson when we're talking about counsel in
`relation to this subject?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you receive assistance from any
`attorneys outside Fish & Richardson?
` A No. I don't think so.
` Q Besides you, yourself, Dr. Greenspun, and
`attorneys at Fish & Richardson, did anybody else
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
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`Page 18
`
`contribute to anything in this declaration?
` A No. I don't think so.
` Q Okay. If we go to paragraph 23 of your
`declaration -- let me know when you're there.
` A Okay.
` Q -- you do declare that you have no
`final -- financial interest in the party or the
`outcome of proceeding, and that's stated. And
`that's correct, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you tell me -- and then you -- and
`then you -- by explaining you're being compensated
`on an hourly basis, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Can you tell me what your hourly rate is?
` A That is a great question, and I wish I
`could answer it. It's possible that for this case
`it was at $475 per hour, but it's also possible that
`it was at $550 per hour. I just can't remember, you
`know, when this engagement began. But I did have to
`put an increase in the rate since it seemed like
`$475 might become the price of a Diet Coke soon
`enough.
` Q Things like that are happening. So
`
`Page 20
`and then aggressively getting rid of the junior
`people at the end of 2008.
` Q Okay. Did you take a break from teaching
`or working in your field during the time you were
`flying, a job?
` A Not really. It's a little hard to
`remember. I mean, probably for the three months
`that I was in training at Delta I didn't do a lot
`with computer science.
` Q Okay. And between -- aside from -- well,
`aside from the three months in training, and then
`you said approximately for a year I believe you
`testified where you were flying --
` A Not even a year. I mean, I would have
`liked to have stayed there at least a year; but
`unfortunately, you know, I was hired in, I think,
`March of 2008, and by September of 2008 everything
`was falling apart.
` Q Okay. All right.
` Well, let's turn to paragraph 15 of your
`declaration, which is Exhibit 1003.
` (Pause)
` A Okay.
` Q Just a moment. So this declaration refers
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`Page 19
`somewhere between 475 and 550, in that range, right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 1004.
` A Okay. I'm there.
` Q That is your résumé, right?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q Okay. And I must make a comment here.
`There are not -- I have not, you know, interacted
`with many MIT computer science Ph.D. professors who
`have also flown jet aircrafts. So can you tell us
`about that, briefly?
` A Well, I just learned to fly in 2001, I
`guess, after, you know, I was -- I'd sold a software
`company. So I had some free time, finally.
` And then, you know, the best way to get
`experience is to fly. So I became an instructor,
`and ultimately I took a job at Delta Airlines in
`2008 to learn how to fly jets.
` Q Were you in that 2008 and per -- sorry.
`Withdraw.
` During that 2008 time frame, approximately
`how long were you, you know, flying as a job?
` A Less than a year. You know, Delta was
`aggressively hiring people in the beginning of 2008
`
`Page 21
`to your first publication of your first textbook on
`Internet application development, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And this paragraph says part way down: To
`make previews of content available so that users
`don't have to navigate as much. That's what you're
`declaration says, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And you wanted to advise readers of this
`point that you're making here, not only in your
`declaration but this point that you also made in the
`textbook itself, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q You continue by quoting an example from
`your book; and, for example, quote, one-line summary
`of the newest, you know, bracket, classified,
`bracket, as should be displayed on the very first
`page of the system, period. Users shouldn't have to
`click to see ads.
` You wanted users -- sorry. Did I read
`that correctly?
` A Yes. I believe so.
` Q And you wanted -- you wanted to advise
`readers of the textbook that users should be able to
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Page 22
`see certain content without needing an extra click,
`right?
` A Correct.
` Q There can be a difference in some cases
`between needing an extra click and not needing an
`extra click, right?
` A Yes. It's a design choice and I,
`personally, thought that, you know, systems should
`have fewer clicks rather than more clicks.
` Q Why is it important to have fewer clicks
`in the examples where you want that to happen?
` A Sorry. You cut out there for a moment.
` Q Why is it important for users -- well,
`withdraw.
` Why is it important for users to -- in the
`examples where you don't need extra clicks, to not
`need extra clicks?
` A It's just easier for users, I think, if
`they don't have to look at as many screens; and
`also, you know, I really think -- I really don't
`like the idea that users would click and then find
`that there was nothing there.
` You know, sometimes even on sites today
`you see publishers offer a link to, you know, what's
`
`Page 24
`systems. But, again, I have to admit that, you
`know, this is a design choice. It's not a
`scientific principle.
` MR. WERBER: I'm going to introduce a new
`exhibit into the record, which will be 2008. And I
`am wrong about that. It is 2018.
` MR. GREEN: Is this exhibit coming through
`the chat mechanism?
` MR. WERBER: And I will make sure that
`happens. So just a minute.
` (Exhibit No. 2018 marked
` for identification)
` (Dr. Samuel Kim now present)
` MR. GREEN: While we're waiting on that, I
`would like to announce that Dr. Samuel Kim of Fish &
`Richardson is also joining the deposition and
`monitoring.
` MR. WERBER: I just posted the chat
`Exhibit 2018.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I have that open.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q Okay. And first, just a basic,
`foundational question. Are you familiar with the
`Wayback machine, or the Internet Archive it's
`
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`Page 23
`new or, I don't know, some category of content. The
`user clicks on that category, and then the page
`shows nothing at all and the user has to back up.
` So that's the kind of thing that I was
`arguing against. Basically, wasted user effort.
` Q Thank you.
` And in relation to wasted user effort, one
`of the ways you remedied this is when you get to the
`page that the user will see, is it fair to say that
`it's important for information to be displayed on
`that page without requiring an extra user gesture?
` A I mean, that was my personal hobby horse,
`I guess. You know, I like to have, for example,
`next to each category in a system a count of the
`number of items that the user would find, if that
`category were to be clicked on.
` But I'm not the boss of the entire
`Internet. So that was my design choice. Other
`people have different goals. You know, some
`publishers want to display as many ads as possible.
`So they actually like to add in extra clicks and
`extra pages so that more ads can be displayed.
` But I'm personally not fond of that,
`either as a user or as a designer of these kind of
`
`Page 25
`
`sometimes called?
` A Yes. I actually was a contemporary of
`Brewster Kahle at MIT; and he's, I think, generally
`credited with having started that project.
` Q I suspected you would know something about
`it.
` So are you familiar generally with the way
`Internet Archive archives certain pages in, you
`know, its certain dates in the past?
` A Yes.
` Q Are you also familiar generally with the
`way that Internet Archive shows when a particular
`page was archived and that usually can be seen in
`the URL?
` A Yes.
` Q And so -- and let's turn to a related
`subject. You stated in your declaration that you
`started programs, finance, et cetera, a page or a
`site called photo.net, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And do you recognize Exhibit 1000 --
`sorry. Do you recognize Exhibit 2018 as a printout
`from Internet Archive of your photo.net site?
` A I mean, I recognize the URL as coming from
`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
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`Page 26
`archive.org. I don't have a specific memory of
`these pages; but, you know, I don't have any reason
`to doubt that they're authentic.
` Q Thank you.
` And I could -- just for housekeeping I can
`make the representation -- obviously I'm not from
`Archive, but this document, Exhibit 2018, was pulled
`from the Internet Archive at the URL www.photo.net.
`The very first page -- just one second -- the very
`first -- first page reveals two -- inside the URL
`you can see the digits 20000510.
` For purposes of the deposition I want you
`to assume those digits refer to something that was
`archived in May 2000. Does that sound fair?
` A Yes. That's my understanding that this
`would have been retrieved by the archive.org server
`on May 10th, 2000.
` Q And then, if we start at page 2, we have a
`different URL which has the digits 20000815. And
`for purposes of this deposition I want you to assume
`that the page that begins on page 2 refers to a page
`that was archived in August 2000. Does that sound
`fair to you?
` A Yes. Again, just looking at the URL, this
`
`Page 28
` Do you see that link to the what's new
`page?
` A Yes. I hope that's not an example of the
`bad practice that I just described earlier where you
`would click on what's new and find there was nothing
`there.
` Q I don't think that's where we're going but
`you never know.
` And then actually, back to something you
`touched on briefly. You see an or and then you see
`my personal homepage. Does that potentially maybe
`refresh your recollection that you were somewhere,
`you know, through the process of trying to separate
`your personal homepage from photo.net?
` A Yes. That's consistent that, you know, my
`homepage would be somewhere within this server.
` Q Okay. And in this situation on this page
`1 there is a link to the "what's new" page, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q But a visitor to this page in May -- on
`May 10th, 2000, would not see any content relating
`to what's new, only the link, correct?
` A Yes. I mean, that's not an accident. I
`think this is a static HTML page, so it's not
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`Page 27
`indicates that this is the version of the photo.net
`homepage from August 15th, 2000.
` Q And both -- both what -- both pages, the
`one starting on page 1 of this exhibit and the one
`starting on page 2 of this exhibit are archived
`versions of the photo.net homepage, right?
` A Yes and no. They're both archived
`versions of the photo.net URL, but I think these are
`from a time when I was trying to split photo.net off
`from my personal site. My personal website used to
`be photo.net, which had a subsection that was the
`actual photo.net community; and I think that's what
`the first page of this exhibit reflects.
` And the second page I think shows, you
`know, what had happened when it was completely spun
`off and my homepage and personal material was on a
`different server.
` Q Fair enough. Thank you for that.
` Let's focus on page 1. And on page 1
`there is a -- halfway down that page there is a
`block of text that refers -- that says: These are
`the most popular sections of this service, period.
`For a comprehensive view, visit the site map or the
`"what's new" page.
`
`Page 29
`generated by a computer program; and, therefore,
`there's no practical way for it to, you know, show a
`count of how many items will be found in what's new
`or show a summary of what's new.
` So this is just a static HTML. You know,
`by contrast the next page that you've got in your
`exhibit is, you know, one that's generated by a
`computer program; and, therefore, it has, you know,
`dynamic content. It could have counts, it could
`have summaries from the database; but, if you have a
`static HTML page, it's impractical to, you know,
`implement my Chapter 13 suggestion that you read
`earlier.
` Q Mm-hmm. So thank you for that.
` And let's turn to page 2 then. And on
`page 2 this is an archive from August 15th of
`2000. This is the homepage again, as you testified;
`and you see here there is to the left midway through
`the page a caption or a section that says what's new
`at photo.net; do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And you see here that there are two bullet
`points previewing content corresponding to what's
`new, right?
`
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` A Correct.
` Q And just so we're clear, the progression
`between May of 2000 on photo.net, the photo.net
`homepage, and August of 2000 at the same photo.net
`homepage, demonstrates the principle we talked about
`a few minutes ago regarding not needing an extra
`click in order to see information, right?
` A Yes. I think that's true. Although, I'm
`not sure what you would have seen if you followed
`that first photo.net link. It's more like there was
`a subset of -- if you clicked on photo.net from that
`May 2000 example in page 1 of this exhibit, you
`might have ended up seeing something somewhat like
`the second page.
` It's -- so it's possible that it's true
`that I was following my own advice; but it's also
`possible that it's just that photo.net was only a
`subsection of the photo.net server, as ridiculous as
`that sounds.
` There were multiple things on the
`photo.net server, and you had to navigate to, like,
`did you want this guy's homepage? Do you want one
`of these books? You know, there was all kinds of
`stuff on the photo.net server at the photo.net URL
`
`Page 32
`The page that -- in May 2000 corresponded to page 2
`of Exhibit 2018 was one click down from the -- from
`page 1.
` So it's -- you know, we can't -- we can't
`equate the photo.net URL with the photo.net service.
`So the photo.net service, I think, if memory
`serves -- again, this sounds ridiculous today, but
`it was an accident of how it developed -- I think it
`might have started at photo.net, slash, photo.
` Q Okay. I understand. The URL
`www.photo.net looks like a homepage. Exhibit 1 has
`the same -- sorry, page 1 has the same URL as page
`2, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Although what was intended to be at that
`same URL and page 1 is a little different than what
`was intended to be on page 1 at the same URL on page
`2, right?
` A Correct.
` And, actually, can I take one more HVAC
`break here?
` Q Sure. I'm not surprised.
` A Okay. I'll be right back.
` Q Thank you.
`
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`Page 31
`
`that wasn't actually photo.net.
` So I would need to do a little more
`research to know, you know, when we had a dynamic
`first page for photo.net. I'm not sure that, you
`know, it was actually first introduced in between
`May and August of 2000.
` Q Okay. But, you know, back to at least the
`exhibits we are seeing now, page 1 of this exhibit
`only shows that there was a link to the what's new
`user page. There is no preview presented to a user
`visiting that page, correct?
` A That's true.
` Q And in order to have a chance to see some
`of the what's new contents, whether it's a preview
`or it's a list of what's new, the user would need to
`engage in a click, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And then, if we turn to page 2, you land
`on the same photo.net homepage -- at least according
`to Internet Archive's version in August of 2000 --
`the user would not need an extra click to preview
`content corresponding to what's new, right?
` A Almost right. I mean, like I said, these
`are not -- you're not showing two comparable pages.
`
`Page 33
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` MR. GREEN: We're off record.
`(Recess taken