UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD., et al.,
` Petitioner,
`-v-
`MEMORYWEB, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
` Patent No. 10,621,228
` Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-00222
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN
`
` Zoom examination taken by agreement of counsel
`on Thursday, January 19, 2023, commencing at 10:15
`a.m.
`
`Court Reporter via Zoom:
`Darline Marie West, RPR, FPR
`
` MAGNA LEGAL SERVICES
` www.MagnaLS.com
` 866.624.6221
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2025
`Samsung v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00222
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`

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`APPEARANCES VIA ZOOM:
`On behalf of the Petitioner:
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 1180 Peachtree Street NE
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` Phone: 404.892.5005
` E-mail: Cgreen@fr.com
` By: CHRISTOPHER GREEN, ESQ.
` HYUN JIN IN, ESQ.
`
`On behalf of the Patent Owner:
` NIXON PEABODY
` 70 West Madison Street
` Chicago, Illinois 60602
` Phone: 312.977.4458
` E-mail: Mwerber@nixonpeabody.com
` By: MATTHEW A. WERBER, ESQ.
`
` - - -
`
`Page 4
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` - - -
` THE COURT REPORTER: Okay. Sir, if you'll
` raise your right hand.
` Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
` the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
` THE WITNESS: I do.
`THEREUPON,
` DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN,
`called as a witness on behalf of the Petitioner
`herein, having been remotely first duly sworn, was
`examined and testified as follows:
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Greenspun. Could you
`please state and spell your full name for the record.
` A. Sure. It's Philip Greenspun. P-H-I-L-I-P.
`And G-R-E-E-N-S-P-U-N.
` Q. And I posted to chat -- we'll go through
`some of the -- the typical routine. I posted to chat
`a Notice of Deposition. If you're able to open it
`and take a look.
` A. Okay. I can see it in Acrobat.
` Q. Okay. Just one second.
` This is a deposition notice asking you to
`
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` I N D E X
`WITNESS: PAGE:
`DR. PHILIP GREENSPUN
`DIRECT EXAMINATION 4
`BY MR. WERBER:
`
`CERTIFICATE OF OATH 162
`
`REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 163
`
`JURAT PAGE 164
`
`ERRATA SHEET 165
`
` - - -
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` - - -
`
` Description Page
`Dr. Philip Greenspun Six renderings 70
`Deposition Exhibit 2024
`
`REPORTER'S NOTE:
` (Reporter downloaded this exhibit from the chat
`in Zoom but was unable to open it to mark; as a
`result it is not attached to the transcript.)
`
` - - -
`
`Page 5
`appear and testify under oath in relation to the
`matter captioned at the top.
` You understand you're here to testify about
`your opinions in this case?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand you are here to provide
`truthful and accurate answers in response to my
`questions?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you understand the oath just
`administered is the same oath used in a courtroom in
`front of a judge and jury?
` A. Yes.
` MR. WERBER: Did we do an oath? We did
` agree that we would do the oath remotely,
` right?
` (A discussion was held off the record with
` the reporter.)
` MR. WERBER: Sounds good. Everybody
` understands we are testifying under oath
` now.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Is there anything you can think of that may
`prevent you from hearing and understanding my
`questions today?
`
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` A. No.
` Q. Is there anything you can think of that may
`prevent you from testifying truthfully that you want
`to mention?
` A. No.
` Q. Can you tell me where you are sitting
`today?
` A. I'm at 133 Barcelona Drive in Jupiter,
`Florida, in my home office.
` Q. We've been through this routine before. I
`just want to confirm, is there anything in the room
`besides the computer you are using for Zoom that is
`powered up and -- and functional?
` A. Well, there's -- there's an iPad behind me
`that's updating its software. But it's not connected
`to anything right now. Everything else is closed or
`powered down.
` Q. Okay. And just to confirm, under the
`rules, we -- any kind of communication devices,
`screens, we prefer that you keep those powered down
`while you're under oath, no conversations with
`counsel, no text messages, e-mails. If you do need
`to turn something on and communicate with the outside
`world other than something personal during a break,
`just let me know.
`
`Page 8
`
` A. Well, I have a printed copy of my -- a
`clean printed copy of my second declaration.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Which I may refer to, if that's okay with
`everybody.
` Q. Sure.
` A. I'm -- I'm looking at, so far, the versions
`that I've downloaded from the links that you've
`provided. I do also have a full directory downloaded
`just a few days ago from the folks at Fish of
`everything filed in the case. So I should have, you
`know, already on my computer authoritative copies of
`anything that's been filed with the Patent Office in
`this case.
` Q. Okay. Just to confirm -- and, again, a
`housekeeping matter that you're familiar with -- the
`declaration that you have a paper copy of, is that
`the only item that you have within your reach that's
`a paper copy?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay. And that doesn't have any additional
`notes or marks on it. It's just a clean copy of the
`declaration?
` A. Correct. I just printed it out about half
`an hour ago.
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` And also if you need a break for any
`reason, which you've done before, just let me know
`and we'll -- we'll come to a pause, so long as
`they're no question pending, and we can take a break.
`I like to take a break probably every hour anyway.
`But let me know if it's an appropriate time for you
`and I haven't done that yet.
` Again, we're doing this remotely. We still
`have a court reporter, Darline. She's recording what
`is said for a transcript. To help the court
`reporter, please answer verbally with words, yes, no,
`rather than nodding your head and the like.
` Does that make sense?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I posted a few items to chat starting with
`Exhibit 1001. And, actually, I'll -- I'll say a
`couple more things.
` I believe you are reviewing the exhibits on
`your laptop, right, electronically?
` A. Well, my desktop computer, but, yes.
` Q. Okay. And are you reviewing in -- in --
`most of the exhibits have already been premarked in
`this case, such as Exhibit 1001.
` Are you using your own copy, or are you
`using the one clean that I posted to chat.
`
`Page 9
` Q. Okay. Perfect. And then for any other
`exhibits you may open or pleadings or anything else,
`if you don't have it in front of you, you let me.
`I'm going to still try to post everything for chat so
`the court reporter at least has a clean record of
`everything that was introduced and shown to you.
` The -- the software copies that you may see
`on your Adobe browsing software, none of those have
`any notes or marks or extra things on them. They are
`the clean originals that you downloaded from or
`received -- you know, received clean through the
`pleadings system?
` A. Yes, I believe so.
` Q. Okay. So I did post to chat Exhibit 1001,
`the '228 Patent. I posted to chat Exhibit 1041,
`1-0-4-1, which is your second declaration. And then
`I will also paste, in case we need to get there, your
`first declaration, which is Exhibit 1003. Okay.
` So those three -- three items that I
`mentioned to you, do you have those available to you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Let's start with Exhibit 1041, which
`I'll call your second declaration.
` Can you tell me who wrote the declaration?
` A. I believe that this was drafted by an
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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`Page 10
`attorney at Fish and edited and finalized by myself.
` Q. Page 1 of Exhibit 1041, that is your
`signature or at least an image of your signature?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And these are your opinions?
` A. They are.
` Q. Okay. I am also going to post to chat a
`copy of the Petition because I think the Petition has
`the -- a set of claims with the actual item,
`lettering, you know, identifiers, A, B, C, all the
`way through G, H identified. Let me just make sure
`it's not in here. Yeah. I think the Petition is
`where we see...
` Have you reviewed the Petition before?
` A. Not in detail, no.
` Q. Okay. The only reason I'm bringing up the
`Petition for the time being is -- and I just posted
`it to chat -- I think right around PDF Page 8 we have
`a listing of challenged claims. And they're item
`numbers -- for example, Claim 1, it starts at, you
`know, No. 1, Preamble, all the way through 1k.
`Somewhere around Page 6, PDF Page 6, PDF Page 7.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay. So we may call those out.
`
`Page 12
`
`the record now?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Just to orient ourselves, you did
`render opinions in your second declaration in
`relation to the word "responsive to." Is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that's a claim term that's recited in
`relation to the people view?
` A. Yes, I believe so.
` Q. Okay. Including Claim Elements G and I
`that we just looked at before the break, correct?
` A. Yes. It's the -- the phrase occurs in
`Claim Element 1g.
` Q. Okay. And then in Paragraph 4 of your
`second declaration, you identify a position that you
`understand patent owner has taken in this litigation
`regarding the word "responsive to," right? Or the
`phrase, the term.
` A. Maybe it's my Internet, but some of what
`you just said dropped out. Could you please repeat
`it.
` Q. Yeah, I will repeat.
` In Paragraph 4 of your declaration, you
`identify a position you understand patent owner in
`this case has taken in relation to the term
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`Page 11
` Let's focus for a moment on Claim Elements
`1g and 1i because you've rendered some opinions about
`this claim limitation.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And do you recognize Claim Elements
`G, H, and I, reciting claim language relating to a
`people view?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you discussed these claim limitations
`in your second declaration, Exhibit 1041, right?
` A. Yes, I think that's true. Although, now
`that I'm looking at the declaration, the claim --
`specific claims aren't -- aren't mentioned, but some
`of the words of the claims and phrases within the
`claims are mentioned.
` MR. WERBER: Thank you. Let me -- I'm
` just going to mute. We can go off the
` record for a second. I have somebody from
` tech here to help me with my real-time feed.
` (A discussion was held off the record.)
` (Samuel Kim, law student in training, has
` joined the deposition.)
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Dr. Greenspun, you're ready to go back on
`
`Page 13
`
`"responsive to," right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. You also identify -- explain the patent
`owner, you know, has cited Figure 32 of the '228
`Patent, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Then you continue around Paragraph 5. I
`want to direct your attention to the annotated
`reproduction of Figure 32.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I believe if you look at the '228
`Patent, Figure 32 has two figures inside it,
`confusingly.
` A. Yes, I do see that.
` Q. Yeah. And just to confirm, this is a
`reproduction of the -- the top of Figure 32.
` Does that make sense?
` A. Actually, some of that dropped out. Is
`everybody else hearing his question clearly? I'm
`wondering if it's just my Internet connection.
` MR. GREEN: I'm hearing it okay, Phil.
` So I don't know.
` THE WITNESS: Can we take about a
` five-minute break? I want to unplug and
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`
` plug back in, which sometimes causes
` dropouts like this.
` MR. WERBER: That's fine. Let's do
` that. You know, and then we can -- because
` I have my microphone turned up to maximum.
` I might be blasting you people's ears for --
` for all I know. And then we can run
` smoothly. Sounds good.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry about that.
` (A discussion was held off the record.)
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. So back on the record.
` I wanted to reorient ourselves. I want to
`note that we are looking at the annotated
`reproduction of Figure 32 immediately below Figure 5
`of your second declaration, Exhibit 1041.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I see the annotated Figure 32 in
`between Paragraphs 5 and 6.
` Q. And to the left is a thumbnail image of Jon
`Smith, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And immediately below we see text, "Jon
`Smith," right?
` A. Yes. Below -- below the face, the drawing
`
`Page 16
`discussing the specifications disclosures in relation
`to Figure 32, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you are discussing your view of what
`the specification is disclosing in terms of when and
`how the people view gets shown, according to the
`specification, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you state that "The people view that
`gets shown to the user can require not only the
`initial pressing of 'People'" -- and that's shown in
`red -- "but also the additional selection of a
`desired display order through the selection in a
`drop-down list (1402) (shown in purple)," correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then you continue with Paragraph 6.
`And I'll read it for the record: "That is, the '228
`patent itself contemplates having intermediate user
`actions between the first event ('cause')" -- "(i.e.
`'cause') and the second event (i.e. 'effect'). Thus,
`the people view displays that are shown as a direct
`result of the drop-down selection are still
`'responsive to' and would not have occurred apart
`from the initial pressing of 'People.'"
` Does that make sense? Did I read that
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`Page 15
`
`of a face, we see the text "Jon Smith."
` Q. Correct. Okay. Thank you. And you
`referred to that as a captioned photo, right?
`Before.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Sometimes I might use the word
`"caption." I think based on the two or three other
`times we've used depositions, I just want to -- we
`can kind of generally understand when you add text
`near a photo, sometimes, we -- you know, you called
`those captions. So I may do that too from time to
`time.
` Does that make sense?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So in Paragraph 5, you make a -- you render
`an opinion in relation to what you call requiring the
`additional selection of a desired display order. And
`you're referring to drop-down box 1402, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And this relates to the sequence -- as
`disclosed in the specification, the sequence
`corresponding to displaying the people view, right?
` A. Sorry. I'm not sure I understand your
`question.
` Q. So Paragraph 5 -- in Paragraph 5, you are
`
`Page 17
`
`correctly?
` A. I hope it makes sense since I wrote it.
` Q. Yeah.
` A. But, yes, I think you did read it
`correctly.
` Q. And you are discussing the specification
`disclosing a sequence of events that result in the
`display of the people view; is that right?
` A. The way you've phrased it doesn't
`completely make sense to me. You know, the people
`view is essentially a computer application that can
`be displayed in different ways at different times,
`depending on, you know, the sort by selection that's
`been made and the items per page selection that's
`been made at the bottom right. I think that's marked
`1405.
` So there is not just a single display of a
`people view any more than there's, you know, a single
`display, let's say, of Microsoft Excel, which is an
`application. So that's what I was getting at, I
`think, that -- that people view has variety of
`capabilities and actual screens that the user might
`see, depending on these additional user actions after
`the people button is pressed.
` Q. Just a moment.
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` And I want to be clear here. Paragraph 5,
`you make a statement: "The people view that gets
`shown to the user can require," and then you go on
`and dis- -- you know, discuss different user actions.
` Is -- is that -- that's what we're talking
`about, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And I want to make sure I clearly
`understand the sequence of user actions you are
`referring to, right? In Paragraphs 5 and 6. And
`tell me if I'm correct or I'm incorrect.
` You are referring to the specification
`disclosing the following sequence: The people menu
`item, 1401, is selected, right? And you call that
`the initial pressing of "People"?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then the people view shown at the top
`of Figure 32 displays after you click people menu
`item, 1401?
` A. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Let me
`look at the description in the patent.
` Q. Okay.
` A. If that is the initial screen that somebody
`sees with the people view.
` Q. And if you want to take a look, I believe
`
`Page 20
` on people and then made some selections for,
` for example, the sort by drop-down and also
` the items per page. The spec doesn't say
` what the default items per page is.
` So it's possible that the marked-up
` figure we're seeing here in my second
` declaration is something that is the result
` of re- -- re-user actions; clicking the
` people button and picking a sort order and
` then picking 20 items per page.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Okay. Let's, for the time being, put aside
`the sort order. The top of Figure 32 -- Figure 32 at
`the top shows four thumbnails and four name captions.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And right now, the figure indicates that
`that drop-down list is sorted newest to oldest.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Okay. And then you can use the drop-down
`to change the sort order, correct?
` A. Yes. That's my understanding from the
`bottom of Column 22 of the '228 Patent.
` Q. Okay. And I want to ask you about not the
`
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`Page 19
`it is around Column 22, near the end of Column 22.
` A. Yeah. I think it's -- it's unclear from
`the spec whether what we see at the top of Figure 32
`is the very first screen the user sees after pressing
`the people button. They don't say, for example,
`whether the sort order newest to oldest is the
`default or if that's something that maybe a user has
`selected.
` Q. So you're saying the specification is
`unclear?
` MR. GREEN: Objection. Form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, just to the bottom
` of 22, I don't know if I would say it's
` unclear, but it's not specific. It says,
` "The people can be listed in various sort
` orders through a drop-down (1402) such as:
` Newest to Oldest, Oldest to Newest,
` Alphabetical (A to Z), Alphabetical (Z to
` A)," and then it says, "Additional sorts are
` contemplated such as age sort."
` So as I tried to explain earlier, it's
` not a hundred percent clear whether the top
` of Figure 32 shows the first screen of the
` people view that -- that appeared or if
` that's the result of the user having clicked
`
`Page 21
`sort order immediately, but instead, have you
`rendered an opinion -- just a moment. Withdraw.
` Under Paragraph 5 you use the phrase "the
`people view that gets shown to the user can require."
` Do you see that phrase?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I just want to be clear about your
`opinion.
` And when you're talking about the people
`view that gets shown to the user, for the time being
`I'm just asking you about a people view that has
`multiple thumbnail images and multiple name captions.
`Okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is it your opinion that the specification
`discloses that you must select the people menu item
`first and then you must also choose the drop-down
`before a people view is displayed with multiple
`thumbnail images and multiple name captions?
` MR. GREEN: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I think the spec leaves
` that to the reader to some extent. It's not
` explicit. I haven't -- I haven't gone
` through the entire spec looking for the
` answer to this question. But based on the
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`Page 22
` bottom of 22 and the top of Column 23, the
` spec is not explicit regarding what is
` initially seen in the people view.
` In other words, it may default to some
` number of items per page in some sort order,
` and then the user would have to change
` those, if, for example, the most recently
` added photos were not of primary interest.
` But it could also be the case, based on
` reading the spec, that no images are
` displayed until a sort order is chosen.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Okay. So is it your opinion that the
`specification discloses that clicking people can
`result in a view that includes no images or captions
`and only until the user chooses a sort order then do
`we see images and captions?
` A. It's -- it's not specific one way or the
`other. As I tried to explain, the text itself could
`be describing a system where, you know, the system
`defaults to, let's say, 50 items per page and
`alphabetical and does show you some images in
`accordance with those defaults, or there could be a
`screen that just has the sort order and items per
`page buttons and no images. So it's -- it's just not
`
`Page 24
`now you're only referring to this illustration.
` A. That -- that's true. Although, here in
`this deposition, you got me to focus on the bottom of
`Column 22 and the top of 23 in some additional
`detail, you know. And I realize that there is a
`design choice here.
` It would depend on the bandwidth. You
`know, if you were trying to conserve network
`bandwidth to a mobile device, for example, you might
`not want to show images until the sort order had been
`picked.
` But, you know, I personally, if I were
`designing this for a desktop user on a gigabit fiber
`link, would probably choose to show something at
`first and then let the user adjust.
` Q. Give me a moment.
` I'm going to attach the patent's owner
`response to chat. Let me know when you're able to
`view it.
` A. I have it open now.
` Q. Okay. And if you turn to Page 13 -- and
`that would be PDF Page 21 -- you did review the
`Patent Owner's Response.
` It is cited in your declaration, right?
` A. Yes.
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`Page 23
`made explicit in the spec which design choice the
`authors of the disclosed embodiment made.
` Q. But in Paragraph 5 of your declaration --
`let me start with Paragraph 4 of your declaration,
`and maybe your declaration is more equivocal than I
`perceived when I was studying it.
` In the middle of Paragraph 4, you note that
`patent owner cites Figure 32 of the '228 patent and
`then argues that pressing "People" (1401) displays
`the people view without the need for any further user
`interaction.
` You were responding to that, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I can represent to you it wasn't just
`Figure 32, but the Patent Owner Response, I believe,
`also cited to the passage of the specification near
`the end of Column 22, discussing the selection of
`that people menu item and the display of the people
`view.
` Does that sound fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And I want to be clear.
` You state: "I do not agree that this
`illustration from the '228 patent supports Patent
`Owner's position." And you're only -- I'm noticing
`
`Page 25
` Q. Okay. And you cite to Paragraph 13 --
`sorry -- Page 13 of the POR in your Paragraph 4 of
`your second declaration, right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you see that there's a
`discussion in -- on Page 13 of the Patent Owner's
`Response discussing Figure 32, and it -- Figure 32 is
`reproduced.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then it also talks about the
`specifications written description starting at
`lines -- Column 22:59 all the way through 23:41.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then it states: "The specification
`discloses that the People Application View of
`Figure 32 displayed in response to selecting 'People'
`(1401) include" -- and we call that the second
`input -- "includes the text 'Jon Smith' (first name)
`and does not disclose that any further user
`interaction is needed."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do. Although, like I said, now that
`I read Column 22 more carefully, I think it's a
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`Page 26
`mischaracterization of Column 22. It -- it doesn't
`disclose either way whether images are shown
`immediately and before a sort order or an items per
`page is picked. It -- it leaves that up to the --
`the reader.
` But, of course, if you're reading it on a
`desktop computer with a high speed connection, you
`may just assume that you're gonna get photos
`immediately. But that's something that a reader
`wouldn't actually add to the spec. It's not in the
`spec itself.
` So whoever wrote this Patent Owner Response
`maybe just assumed its system would -- would always
`work that way with -- in a world of unlimited
`bandwidth and computing power and battery power.
` MR. WERBER: I want to object and move
` to strike that response as nonresponsive.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. My only question is: Did you see that in
`relation to my reading of Page 13 of the Patent Owner
`Response? Did you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, moving on to your -- and I want to be
`clear here.
` Back to Paragraph 4 of your declaration,
`
`Page 28
`
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. Okay. So just to confirm, although you
`only mention the illustration, you didn't intend to
`be so specific that your statement related only to
`the illustration, the figure, right?
` A. Correct. I was including any text from the
`specification that would be necessary to understand
`the illustration.
` Q. Okay. And then you say, "Rather, as I show
`below, the people view that gets shown to the user
`can require not only" -- and you -- sorry. withdraw.
` I will place emphasis on "can require."
` "Rather, the people view that gets shown to
`the user can require not only the initial pressing of
`'People' (1401) (shown in red) but also the
`additional selection of a desired display order
`through the selection in a drop-down list (1402)
`(shown in purple)."
` So, to be clear, it is your view that a
`POSITA, studying 32 and also reading Column 22 at the
`end, would understand that pressing "People," 1401,
`does not display four images and four captions;
`instead, it's your opinion that a POSITA would
`understand that the specification states that you
`must make this additional user action, selecting
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`Page 27
`you cite to this passage of the Patent Owner's
`Response on Paragraph -- on Page 13, right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And that Page 13 cites to Figure 32, and
`then it also cites to the passage of the
`specification we have been talking about. Right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I just want to understand, you say, "I
`do not agree that the illustration supports patent
`owner's position."
` And I want to make sure you purposefully
`made sure that you were only referring to the
`illustration, right, not the specification passage?
` MR. GREEN: Objection.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q. In -- in authoring -- you know, in
`finalizing and, you know, offering this opinion as
`written?
` MR. GREEN: Same objection.
` THE WITNESS: No. I don't think I was
` being that specific. You know, when I talk
` about an illustration in a patent, I think I
` am also generally including the description
` from the spec that's relevant to that figure
` or illustration.
`
`Page 29
`drop-down list 1402, before you can see four images
`and four captions.
` Is that what your testimony is?
` A. Well, sort of. I think that you have to
`look at two aspects, as I said: One is, is the
`system designed for a desktop computer user who has
`unlimited power and Internet bandwidth and,
`therefore, it makes sense to show photos before the
`user has expressed any kind of intention regarding
`the desired sort order or number of items per page or
`whether it's on mobile or battery power and Internet
`are both scarce. And you also have to look at what
`the user's interested in, you know, if we assume a
`real world database of the system contemplates at
`least a hundred items per page.
` So let's say there's at least a hundred
`items -- hundred groups under individual persons in
`this database. The user may have to provide some
`additional selections in order to get to the point
`that the people that the user is interested in are
`displayed.
` So those are two scenarios where additional
`selections may be required: One, for the user to see
`the photos that he or she is interested in; and, two,
`to see any photos at all if the system designers have
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`Page 30
`made the choice, which is not inconsistent with
`Columns 22 and 23 to require a sort order or an
`items per page selection before any photos are shown.
` Q. Going back to Claim 1 of the '228 Patent,
`Claim Elements G and I, and then there's another
`one -- I think it's -- I think it's "H" -- does not
`require any more than two thumbnails and two name
`captions, right?
` A. I think that's true, yes.
` Q. And so is it your testimony that the
`specification -- withdraw.
` In the answer you gave to me just a minute
`ago, discussing computer power, is it your testimony
`that -- or withdraw.
` When you discussed in that -- in that
`answer to me a minute ago, Internet bandwidth and
`computing power, is it your testimony that the
`specification discloses that the people view may or
`may not display multiple thumbnail images and
`multiple name captions upon the selection