UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`Patent No. 10,423,658
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD, :
`et al., :
` Petitioner :
` :
`VS :
` :
`MEMORYWEB, LLC, :
` Patent Owner :
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
`
`Inter Partes Review No. IPR2022-00221
`
` Deposition of PHILIP GREENSPUN, PH.D.
`taken via videoconference before Clifford Edwards,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, on
`October 21, 2022, at 9:13 a.m. EDT.
`
` Magna Legal Services
` 866-624-6221
` Www.MagnaLS.com
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2024
`Samsung v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00221
`
`

`

`Page 2
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`Page 3
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` PAGE
`DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. WERBER 6
`
` EXHIBITS
`
`GREENSPUN EXHIBIT PAGE
`No. 1001, '658 Patent 13
`No. 1003, Dr. Philip Greenspun Declaration 13
`No. 2018, Excerpt of Book Entitled
` Designing Interfaces 21
`No. 1005, Okamura Reference 33
`No. 2002, Fujiwara Reference 50
`No. 2019, Takakura Reference 50
`No. 2020, Four Variations of the Top of
` Figure 32 of the '658 Patent 97
`No. 1041, Yee Reference 161
`No. 1006, Belitz Reference 181
`No. 2021, '228 Patent 192
`
`Page 5
` COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
` participating in this deposition
` acknowledge that I am not physically
` present in the deposition room and that I
` will be reporting this deposition
` remotely. They further acknowledge that,
` in lieu of an oath administered in person,
` the witness will verbally declare their
` testimony in this matter is under penalty
` of perjury.
` The parties and their counsel consent
` to this arrangement and waive any
` objections to this manner of reporting.
` Please indicate your agreement by
` stating your name and your agreement on
` the record.
` MR. WERBER: Matt Werber on behalf of
` MemoryWeb. Agreed.
` MR. GREEN: Christopher Green on
` behalf of Samsung. Agreed.
`
`
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`
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`A P P E A R A N C E S: (all via videoconference)
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER SAMSUNG:
` CHRISTOPHER O. GREEN, ESQ.
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 1180 Peachtree St NE
` Atlanta, GA 30309
` cgreen@fr.com
` HYUN JIN IN, PH.D., ESQ.
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 1000 Maine Ave, SW
` Washington, D.C. 20024
` in@fr.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER MEMORYWEB:
` MATTHEW WERBER, ESQ.
` ANGELO J. CHRISTOPHER, ESQ.
` ALLISON STRONG
` PETER KRUSIEWICZ
` NIXON PEABODY, LLP
` 70 West Madison St.
` Suite 3500
` Chicago, IL 60602
` Mwerber@nixonpeabody.com
` JENNIFER HAYES, ESQ.
` NIXON PEABODY
` 300 South Grand Avenue
` Suite 4100
` Los Angeles, CA 90071-3151
` jenhayes@nixonpeabody.com
`
`Page 4
`
` EXHIBITS
` (continued)
`
`GREENSPUN EXHIBIT PAGE
`
`No. 2022, Transcript of Greenspun
` Deposition, August 26, 2022 192
`
`(Reporter's Note: Exhibits marked remotely and
`forwarded to Magna Legal Services for production.)
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`Page 6
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`Page 7
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` PHILIP GITTES GREENSPUN
`residing at 133 Barcelona Drive, Jupiter, FL 33458,
`having first been duly sworn, deposed and testified
`as follows.
`
` COURT REPORTER: Any stipulations?
` Okay. All set.
`
`1
` Do you understand you are here to
`2
`testify about the opinions you provided for this
`3 matter?
`4
` A Yes.
`5
` Q You understand you are here to provide
`6
`truthful and accurate answers in response to my
`7
`questions?
`8
` A Yes.
`9
` Q Is there anything that you can think of
`10
`today that may prevent you from hearing and
`11
`understanding my questions?
`12
` A Well, I've got a cold, but I've taken
`13
`ibuprofen and Sudafed so I hope that will defog my
`14
`brain.
`15
` Q Hopefully. Hopefully you'll feel better
`16
`as the day -- as the day progresses.
`17
` Is there anything you can think of
`18
`that may prevent you from testifying truthfully
`19
`today?
`20
` A No.
`21
` Q Can you tell me where you are sitting
`22
`today?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`
`56
`
`7
`
`89
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`10
`11
`BY MR. WERBER:
`12
` Q Good morning, Dr. Greenspun. As we were
`13
`getting started, getting our items arranged, I
`14
`posted to chat a deposition notice.
`15
` Are you able to see?
`16
` A Yes. I downloaded it.
`17
` Q Very good.
`18
` And for the record, no exhibit number
`19
`for the deposition notice. It's just a -- it's just
`20
`a pleading. This is a deposition notice asking you
`21
`to appear and testify under oath in relation to the
`22 matter captioned at the top.
`
`Page 8
`
`Page 9
`
`1
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`17
`18
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`21
`22
`
` I believe you mentioned you have a
`home in Jupiter, Florida. Is that where you are?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there anything in the room with you
`besides the computer you are using for Zoom with an
`on/off switch?
` A Well, there's an aquarium.
` Q Don't turn off your aquarium.
` A And there's also a Sonos music box that's
`not playing anything right now.
` And I do have my phone but I'm
`expecting a delivery of a shuffleboard table and the
`guy is driving from Tampa, so I was hoping to leave
`that on in case he texts me. I can promise you that
`I won't get any texts from Chris or any other bad
`people.
` Q Chris is not a bad person.
` But yes, so if you need the text
`because you have a delivery coming, that's fine.
` Let's just have an understanding that
`you are not going to be texting with counsel or
`others regarding the case while you are under oath
`
`1
`today during this deposition.
`2
` Is that understood?
`3
` A Yes.
`4
` Q Is there anything that is powered on on
`5
`your computer besides -- besides Zoom in terms of
`6
`applications running?
`7
` A Well, let's see. I have -- I have Adobe
`8 Acrobat running right now with a -- my own version
`9
`of my declaration, I guess. And the Notice of
`10
`Deposition that you just sent me. Those are the two
`11
`Acrobat windows.
`12
` And let's see. I've closed -- I'm
`13
`closing everything else. I have a Chrome browser
`14
`open but I'll close that.
`15
` Q That makes sense. So just to confirm, I
`16
`will be posting exhibits to chat. You are free to
`17
`take a look using your Adobe software.
`18
` If you have a copy of your
`19
`declaration, I just want to confirm -- and I believe
`20
`we've been through this already -- that there are no
`21
`additional notes or marks. It's the version that
`22
`was served on us and that everybody has seen posted
`
`
`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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`Page 10
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`Page 11
`
`1
`to the PTAB proceeding; is that right?
`2
` A Yes. Well, I also have a printed version
`3 which, you know, counsel supplied to me and informed
`4 me that it was an as-filed version of my
`5
`declaration.
`6
` Q Very good. So it's a clean version of
`7
`your declaration in paper as well?
`8
` A (The witness nods head.)
`9
` Q Is there anything else in the room
`10
`relating to this case that you have beyond the list
`11
`of things that we've talked about?
`12
` A No.
`13
` Q We've done this before and I know in other
`14
`proceedings you've done this a few times, but I'll
`15
`just repeat a few instructions so we are clear on
`16
`the rules.
`17
` I'll do my best to answer -- ask
`18
`clear and direct questions you are able to
`19
`understand. If you do not understand a question or
`20
`would like clarification, please, speak up and I
`21
`will rephrase.
`22
` Makes sense?
`
`1
` A Yes.
`2
` Q We are doing this remotely through video
`3
`conference but we still have a court reporter;
`4
`that's Cliff.
`5
` Please respond with verbal answers
`6
`and statements rather than gestures so he can type
`7
`it into the written transcript; okay?
`8
` A Okay.
`9
` Q A few minutes ago Chris Green introduced
`10
`himself as your attorney for the deposition.
`11 Mr. Green may choose to object to my questions --
`12
`some of my questions. If he does, please, allow him
`13
`time to finish his brief objection and then you can
`14
`proceed with answering afterwards.
`15
` An objection does not mean you should
`16
`not answer, that is unless Mr. Green specifically
`17
`tells you not to answer for reasons of privilege,
`18 which I'm hoping we won't need to get into today.
`19
` Does that make sense?
`20
` A Yes.
`21
` Q Did you do anything to prepare for today's
`22
`deposition?
`
`Page 12
`
`Page 13
`
`1
` A Yes, I did.
`2
` Q What did you do?
`3
` A I reread my declaration and I had two Zoom
`4 meetings with counsel.
`5
` Q Let's talk about the first of the two Zoom
`6 meetings. When was that and who was present?
`7
` A The first meeting, I believe, was on
`8 Monday of this week, and H.J., who is here on the
`9
`call, was present from Fish. And at least for part
`10
`of that, a younger Fish employee named Sam.
`11
` And then the other meeting was
`12
`yesterday. And H.J. and Chris were both present.
`13
` Q Any others -- well, withdraw.
`14
` Just to confirm, were -- either at
`15
`the first meeting or the second meeting, were there
`16
`any others present during these Zoom meetings that
`17
`you haven't mentioned?
`18
` A No.
`19
` Q And starting with the first meeting, can
`20
`you tell us how long approximately the first meeting
`21
`took?
`22
` And tell me the same for the second
`
`1 meeting?
`2
` A I think each one was -- I think it's about
`3
`one and a half hours.
`4
` Q First, let's walk through a little bit
`5 more housekeeping. I just posted to chat
`6
`Exhibit 1001.
`7
` (Whereupon, Greenspun Exhibit
`8
` No. 1001, '658 Patent, was
`9
` marked for identification.)
`10
`BY MR. WERBER:
`11
` Q Let me know when you are able to see.
`12
` A Yes, I can see it.
`13
` Q Do you recognize Exhibit -- and this was
`14
`premarked. Do you recognize Exhibit 1001 as the
`15
`'658 patent that you have opined on?
`16
` A Yes, I do.
`17
` Q I also attached Exhibit 1003.
`18
` (Whereupon, Greenspun Exhibit
`19
` No. 1003, Dr. Philip Greenspun
`20
` Declaration, was marked for
`21
` identification.)
`22
`
`
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)4 (Pages 10 to 13)
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`Page 14
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`Page 15
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`1
`BY MR. WERBER:
`2
` Q I believe you also have a copy anyway if I
`3
`didn't post it to chat.
`4
` But do you recognize the document
`5
`that has been marked as Exhibit 1003 as your
`6
`declaration?
`7
` A Yes, I do.
`8
` Q Let's talk about the declaration for a
`9 moment.
`10
` Can you share who wrote the
`11
`declaration?
`12
` A I did.
`13
` Q Did counsel assist with your preparation
`14
`of the declaration?
`15
` And you can answer without revealing
`16
`any, you know, specific conversations, you know,
`17
`in -- between you and counsel.
`18
` A Yes.
`19
` Q In what ways did counsel assist?
`20
` A Well, counsel certainly wrote the entire
`21
`legal standards section here. And that starts at
`22
`page 13, I believe, and goes up to page 20.
`Page 16
`
`1
` A Yes.
`2
` Q And you testified in an IPR matter in
`3
`relation to MemoryWeb's '228 patent back in August
`4
`of this year.
`5
` Do you remember that?
`6
` A Yes.
`7
` Q And one of the topics we covered related
`8
`to what I believe you have stated in your current
`9
`declaration and you called it the same thing in the
`10
`prior declaration, I believe you called it your
`11
`first textbook.
`12
` Do you remember that?
`13
` A No.
`14
` Q Okay. Just one second.
`15
` Okay. Let's turn to paragraph 15 of
`16
`your -- of Exhibit 1003.
`17
` A Okay.
`18
` Q Yeah, and I'll clarify that question. I
`19 want to ask you about your first textbook on
`20
`internet application development.
`21
` A Okay.
`22
` Q Okay. In relation -- in relation to this
`
`1
` Counsel put in the claim language
`2
`into the headings. And then counsel worked on some
`3
`of the graphics, the figure annotations that I can
`4
`see here.
`5
` So I would say those are the primary
`6 ways that counsel assisted.
`7
` Q Can you approximate how many hours, as an
`8
`approximation, it took to prepare the declaration
`9
`attached as Exhibit 1003?
`10
` A I don't remember. But probably somewhere
`11
`in the 50-hour range.
`12
` Q I can't remember if it's in your
`13
`declaration but if -- just in case it's not, can you
`14
`share your hourly rate?
`15
` A I think for this project it was at 475 per
`16
`hour.
`17
` Q Just one moment. Okay.
`18
` You submitted a declaration and
`19
`testified at a deposition -- withdraw.
`20
` You have submitted declarations and
`21
`testified at least once in -- related to another
`22 MemoryWeb Samsung IPR matter; is that right?
`Page 17
`1
`textbook, and it's also typed into your declaration
`2
`here in a footnote, there's a quote from you saying
`3
`that, "Users shouldn't have to click to see ads."
`4
` Do you recall that?
`5
` A Yes.
`6
` Q And the same quote appears in your
`7
`declaration at the bottom in footnote one, says,
`8
`"One-line summaries of the newest ads should be
`9
`displayed on the very first page of the system.
`10 Users shouldn't have to click to see ads."
`11
` Did I read that correctly?
`12
` A Yes.
`13
` Q You've stated that it is -- in this --
`14
`this occurred at your prior deposition that as a
`15
`design choice, systems should have fewer clicks
`16
`rather than more clicks; is that right?
`17
` A Well, it depends who's making the design
`18
`choice. You know, that's my personal choice. The
`19
`people who like to put ads into web experiences
`20
`don't necessarily agree with me.
`21
` Q And I'll ask just another question related
`22
`to that in just one second.
`
`
`
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`Page 18
`1
` In paragraph 15 you refer to, "making
`2
`previews of content available so that users don't
`3
`have to navigate as much."
`4
` Can you share if that's a design
`5
`preference of yours and why?
`6
` A Yes. Well, again, I'm focused on the
`7
`user, so I feel like if the user can see previews
`8
`either as summaries on the first page -- which is
`9
`fairly common, you can see that with Google search,
`10
`for example -- and not have to click down, or
`11
`perhaps by hovering over a link, that's better than
`12
`requiring users to follow the link and possibly --
`13
`and back up if it's not what they wanted.
`14
` But, again, that's a design choice
`15
`that -- that is personal to me. Somebody who is
`16
`designing a system to maximize the number of ads
`17
`that could be shown would probably make a different
`18
`design choice.
`19
` Q Okay. Outside of the example you offered
`20
`regarding a designer that wants to -- just one
`21 moment.
`22
` Outside the example you offered of
`
`Page 20
`1
` Can you share why it's important to
`2
`not require extra clicks?
`3
` A Well, sure. If we stick to that
`4
`classified ad system that we were talking about,
`5
`let's say there's a hundred ads. If you didn't
`6
`summarize them with at least the item to be sold and
`7
`the price, then the user would have to do about 200
`8
`operations to get the -- the item description and
`9
`the price for all of them.
`10
` So, you know, that's an example
`11 where, you know, at the index page you can save the
`12
`user a lot of time.
`13
` THE WITNESS: Do you guys mind if
`14
` I -- if I take a three-minute break?
`15
` There's an electrician here. One of
`16
` the bad features of doing this stuff from
`17
` home.
`18
` MR. WERBER: That's fine. We'll
`19
` just -- we'll take five.
`20
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry about
`21
` that.
`22
` (Whereupon, there was a recess
`
`Page 19
`1
`somebody who is designing a system to maximize the
`2
`number of ads, would you agree that a preferred
`3
`design would require fewer clicks rather than more
`4
`clicks, all other things being equaled?
`5
` MR. GREEN: I'll -- I'll object as
`6
` vague.
`7
` But you may answer if you understand.
`8
` A I think, again, it's -- it is often comes
`9
`down to personal preference. It depends on how
`10
`complicated the task is. You know, if it's a
`11 multistep process, people might find -- users might
`12
`find it clearer with some additional clicks and
`13
`pages. So it would really depend on the site.
`14
` You know, I'm saying for a classified
`15
`ad site that I definitely think these one-line
`16
`summaries should be on the index page, if you will.
`17
` But that doesn't mean you can apply
`18
`that to every application or web system.
`19
`BY MR. WERBER:
`20
` Q And you've discussed your personal
`21
`preference in -- in situations regarding requiring
`22
`fewer clicks rather than more clicks.
`
`Page 21
`
`1
` taken from 9:34 a.m. to 9:44
`2
` a.m.)
`3
` MR. WERBER: I'm going to mark a new
`4
` exhibit. And this will be 2018, I
`5
` believe.
`6
` Okay. Just one second.
`7
` (Whereupon, Greenspun Exhibit
`8
` No. 2018, Excerpt of Book
`9
` Entitled Designing Interfaces,
`10
` was marked for identification.)
`11
`BY MR. WERBER:
`12
` Q I just marked -- and it's almost
`13
`ten megabytes -- I just marked what should be
`14
`Exhibit 2018. Let me know when you have it opened.
`15
` A Okay. I've got it open.
`16
` Q Okay. And I can represent for the record
`17
`the full version of this particular exhibit is
`18
`hundreds of pages and I believe it was like
`19
`160 megabytes. Hard to transfer over Zoom.
`20
` There is a full copy available. I --
`21
`I included just the first several chapters because
`22 my question relates to something that appears on
`
`
`
`6 (Pages 18 to 21)6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Page 22
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`Page 23
`
`1
`page 15.
`2
` So first of all, do you recognize
`3
`this book, Designing Interfaces?
`4
` A I do not.
`5
` Q And there's an author, Jenifer Tidwell.
`6 Do you know this author?
`7
` A I don't.
`8
` Q Okay. Let me turn to page 15.
`9
` A Okay.
`10
` Q And there was a -- there's a statement
`11
`about interfaces that I wanted to ask you about
`12
`briefly.
`13
` In the -- on -- let me know -- this
`14
`is PDF page 35, page 15 of the text. Let me know if
`15
`you are there.
`16
` A Okay. I'm here on page 35 of the PDF.
`17
` Q Okay. And then halfway down the left-hand
`18
`column there is a paragraph that says, "Just as
`19
`important, comma."
`20
` Do you see that?
`21
` A Yes.
`22
` Q And I'll read it.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
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`10
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`Page 24
`
` "Just as important, the -- [sic] is
`consistency within an application. Some
`applications are evil because they establish an
`expectation that some gesture will do action X
`except in one special mode where it suddenly does
`action Y. Don't do that. It's a sure bet that
`users will make mistakes, and the more experienced
`they are, i.e. the more habituated they are-the more
`they are to make that mistake."
` Do you see that?
` A I do.
` Q Do you agree with that statement?
` A Well, the table of contents says this is
`about a 300-page book, so I would hate to be looking
`at one paragraph out of context.
` But, you know, I think it's probably
`the case that for most -- in most situations
`consistency will be better than inconsistency.
` Q And if you have a user interface
`element -- if you are designing a user interface and
`there's an element, would you agree that it's
`important for that user interface element to lead to
`Page 25
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`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
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`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`the same result if it's the same userface --
`interface element?
` MR. GREEN: Objection. Vague.
` A I don't know. It would really -- you
`know, I -- you'd really have to look at a specific
`application.
` General principles are great, but
`each application has its own requirements so it's --
`it's not possible to make, you know, blanket
`statements about every computer application.
`BY MR. WERBER:
` Q Would you agree that if you were to design
`a user interface and there is a particular icon that
`looks a certain way, would you agree all other
`things being equal that selection of that particular
`icon should lead to a consistent result each time
`it's selected?
` A I don't know. I might be the wrong person
`to ask about that. I'm kind of an icon hater. You
`know, I -- I think icons can be confusing. I'd
`rather see a button labeled with the word "home"
`than, you know, an artist's conception of what a
`
`1
`little house would look like.
`2
` Q Just one second.
`3
` Why are you an icon hater?
`4
` A Just because, you know, I've -- I've had
`5 my own experience of looking at an interface and
`6
`the -- the icon that a graphic designer thought
`7 would communicate something, this would be the
`8
`obvious section of a -- of a web experience or a
`9
`desktop application, you know, it wasn't obvious to
`10 me.
`11
` Q If you had a button with the word "home"
`12
`on it, all other things being equal, would it be
`13
`preferable that that button would cause the same
`14
`result each time it is selected as opposed to on
`15
`certain occasions the button "home" would lead to an
`16
`entirely different result?
`17
` MR. GREEN: Objection to the extent.
`18
` It's an incomplete hypothetical.
`19
` A I think for most websites that would be
`20
`true. You know, there might be other applications
`21
`or some websites where it wouldn't be true.
`22
` You know, if you were down inside a
`
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`1 website for a multidivisional company, there might
`2
`be some situations where the "home" icon, for
`3
`example, would go to the home page for that division
`4
`of the company rather than the home page for the
`5
`umbrella corporation, especially if the divisions
`6 were, you know, selling unrelated products and
`7
`services.
`8
`BY MR. WERBER:
`9
` Q I'll add a condition to this scenario.
`10
` What if it's -- each time it's being
`11
`used by the same user?
`12
` A You know, even under -- there's going to
`13
`be a design choice that would be particular to the
`14
`application. If it's a very simple website and
`15
`there's only one product being sold, then I think I
`16
`could agree with you, that the home button -- it's
`17
`hard to think of a situation where you'd ever want
`18
`the home button to go somewhere other than, you
`19
`know, a single home page for that -- that site.
`20
` Q What about if -- if we are not necessarily
`21
`talking about -- I want to ask a similar question.
`22
` Rather than talking about a specific
`
`Page 28
`
`1
`know, the results varies quite a bit from
`2
`application to application and, you know, in the
`3
`operating system of the phone versus down in an
`4
`application.
`5
` So I guess the answer is no across
`6
`the entire device.
`7
` Q Okay. And you described a scenario.
`8
` What if you are within the same
`9
`application, Dr. Greenspun?
`10
` MR. GREEN: I'll object to the extent
`11
` it's an incomplete hypothetical.
`12
` But you may answer.
`13
` A Well, I mean, if we stick with something
`14
`concrete like the click right gesture in Microsoft
`15 Windows applications, you know, usually it should
`16
`bring up a menu of things that you could do with the
`17
`object that you clicked on. And that behavior
`18
`should be consistent, you know, within an
`19
`application.
`20
` But what you actually see on the
`21 menu, you know, would be different from object to
`22
`object.
`
`Page 27
`1
`user interface element, such as a home button, I
`2 want to ask about a user interface gesture.
`3
` Do you know what I mean when I talk
`4
`about a gesture?
`5
` A I think so. I mean, the most familiar
`6
`examples are on phones. So you have, you know --
`7
`like on a -- the home screen of your iPhone, or I
`8
`think Android phones as well, you can swipe left or
`9
`right to see different areas of the multipage home
`10
`screen, if you will.
`11
` Q In -- in -- and would another example of
`12
`the gesture be a double-click versus a single click?
`13
` A Yes, I think that's fair, to call those
`14
`gestures.
`15
` Q So I want to ask a similar question about
`16
`gestures rather than specific icons.
`17
` As a general principle, is it
`18
`important that a particular gesture would cause the
`19
`same result each time it's used, as opposed to the
`20
`same gesture creating different results?
`21
` A I don't know. On your -- on your phone
`22
`certainly, since there's not that many gestures, you
`Page 29
`
`1
`BY MR. WERBER:
`2
` Q That's fair.
`3
` Do you agree with Microsoft's design
`4
`choice such that when you are in a particular
`5
`application, a right-click typically brings up a
`6 menu? Do you agree with that design choice made by
`7 Microsoft?
`8
` MR. GREEN: Objection. Vague.
`9
` A Yeah, I'm kind -- I'm kind of a fan of the
`10
`right-click. I know that Apple, you know, at least,
`11
`didn't like it for a long time to the point that
`12
`they wouldn't put a right mouse button on their
`13 mice. But as a Windows user, I like it.
`14
`BY MR. WERBER:
`15
` Q And beyond that, I just wanted to ask
`16
`about the consistency of it. The general
`17
`consistency that a right-click typically will lead
`18
`to a menu as opposed to some other result.
`19
` Do you agree with that design choice?
`20
` MR. GREEN: Objection. Vague.
`21
` A Yes, I think so within the context of
`22
`building a Windows application, unless you have
`
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`Page 30
`something unusual like you are building a game.
` You know, I think there are
`situations where you would probably want to get away
`from that. You know, you might have a game, for
`example, where you'd be clicking the left and the
`right mouse buttons to navigate within the game and
`you'd be outside of Microsoft's ordinary world where
`they promote that menu that comes up with the right
`button.
` Q I am going -- I already introduced
`Exhibit 1001 and that is a copy of the '658 patent.
` Are you able to take -- open that up?
` A Yes.
` Q Is it correct that you rendered an opinion
`that all claims of the '658 patent would have been
`obvious?
` A Well, I wrote about that in paragraph 26
`of my declaration. And the answer is yes.
` Q Your declaration also refers to -- in
`paragraph 22 you state that you were, "informed to
`consider the materials through the lens of one of
`ordinary skill in the art related to the '658 patent
`Page 32
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`Page 31
`at the time of the earliest possible priority date."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And you did that as instructed, right?
` A Yes.
` Q You were able to determine in rendering
`your obviousness opinions what a -- withdraw that
`question.
` When I say person of ordinary skill
`in the art, do you mind if I call that a POSITA,
`P-O-S-I-T-A?
` A Okay.
` Q You were able to determine in forming your
`obviousness opinions what a POSITA would understand
`from reading each of the claims of the '658 patent?
` A Yes.
` Q And in forming your opinions, you
`considered each word of each claim of the '658
`patent; correct?
` A Well, that might be a little too strong.
`You know, I think it's attorneys who really dig into
`these claims word by word.
`
`Page 33
`
`1
` But I certainly read all of each
`2
`claim. I don't know that I focused on one word at a
`3
`time the way that a patent attorney might.
`4
` Q So is it your testimony you rendered --
`5
`you formed your opinion without considering each
`6 word recited in the claims?
`7
` MR. GREEN: Objection.
`8
` Mischaracterizes testimony.
`9
` A I mean, I -- I think that, you know, as a
`10
`layperson reading these claims, I -- I'm reading
`11
`sentences. I'm not reading word by word and
`12
`stopping to consider the meaning of each individual
`13 word, but --
`14
`BY MR. WERBER:
`15
` Q Did you read the -- oh, sorry. Go ahead.
`16
` A Well, I mean, the sentences are, you know,
`17
`collections of words. So in that sense, I
`18
`considered every word in the sense that I -- I read
`19
`the entire claim.
`20
` Q And just to clarify: Is it your testimony
`21
`you read the language of the claims as a layperson?
`22
` MR. GREEN: Object to the form.
`
`1
` Mis- -- object to the extent it
`2
` mischaracterizes testimony.
`3
` A Well, a layperson with respect to, you
`4
`know, patent law. Obviously, I have some technical
`5
`background. But, you know, I know that there's -- I
`6
`know that there's specialized ways in which patent
`7
`attorneys may interpret individual words or phrases
`8 within a claim, and I'm -- I'm not privy to the --
`9
`that specialization.
`10
`BY MR. WERBER:
`11
` Q Did you understand and consider each word
`12
`in each claim from the perspective of a POSITA?
`13
` A Yes, I think so. Although, again, in
`14
`the -- with the caveat that I -- I'm reading
`15
`sentences at a time and understanding the words, you
`16
`know, in the context of those sentences. I'm not
`17
`going word by word.
`18
` (Whereupon, Greenspun Exhibit
`19
` No. 1005, Okamura Reference, was
`20
` marked for identification.)
`21
`BY MR. WERBER:
`22
` Q I'm introducing another exhibit that has
`
`
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`1
`been premarked. This is Exhibit 1005, the Okamura
`2
`reference.
`3
` Let me know when you have that open.
`4
` A Okay. I've -- I've got it open.
`5
` Q And I want you to turn to PDF page 20,
`6 which is figure 19 of Okamura.
`7
` A Okay. Just give me one moment here
`8
`because I'm having Acrobat recognize the text in the
`9
`document -- this -- this exhibit --
`10
` Q Sure. Yeah, take your time.
`11
` A -- came through without any OCR.
`12
` Q You can blame Chris for that. Or whoever
`13
`submitted it to the PTAB.
`14
` I noticed that, too.
`15
` MR. GREEN: I think everyone has
`16
` Adobe with a facility for adding OCR.
`17
` MR. WERBER: That's right. That's
`18
` right.
`19
` MR. GREEN: But I guess someone has
`20
` to take the fall.
`21
` A All right. Now I can search for
`22
`figure 19.
`
`Page 36
` A Yes. Okamura characterizes figure 19 as
`an index screen.
` Q And this is index screen 410;