· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· ____________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·MEMORYWEB LLC,
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· _____________________________________________________
`
`· · ·Case IPR2022-00221 (US Patent No. 10,423,658)
`· _____________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF:
`
`· · · · · · · · ·GLENN REINMAN, Ph.D.
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·JANUARY 24, 2023
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`· · · Page 1 - 169· · · · 8:03 a.m. - 2:04 p.m. EST
`
`REPORTED BY:
`Tamara L. Houston
`CA CSR No. 7244, RPR, CCRR No. 140
`Job Number 23-119188
`FR Reference 39843-0116IP1
`
`1
`
`SAMSUNG 1046
`Samsung v. MemoryWeb
`IPR2022-00221
`
`
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· ____________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·MEMORYWEB LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`· _____________________________________________________
`
`· · ·Case IPR2022-00221 (US Patent No. 10,423,658)
`· _____________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF:
`
`· · · · · · · · ·GLENN REINMAN, Ph.D.
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·JANUARY 24, 2023
`
`· · · Page 1 - 169· · · · 8:03 a.m. - 2:04 p.m. EST
`
`REPORTED BY:
`Tamara L. Houston
`CA CSR No. 7244, RPR, CCRR No. 140
`Job Number 23-119188
`FR Reference 39843-0116IP1
`
`1
`
`SAMSUNG 1046
`Samsung v. MemoryWeb
`IPR2022-00221
`
`
`
`·1
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`·2
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`·4· · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF GLENN
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`·5· ·REINMAN, Ph.D., taken on behalf of the Petitioner,
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`·6· ·commencing from 8:03 a.m. to 2:04 p.m. EST, Tuesday,
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`·7· ·January 24, 2023, before Tamara L. Houston, CSR No.
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`·8· ·7244, CCRR, RPR.
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`·1· ·REMOTE APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
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`·2
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`·3· · · · On behalf of the Petitioner:
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`·4· · · · · · ·FISH & RICAHRDSON P.C.
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· CHRISTOPHER O. GREEN, ESQ.
`·5· · · · · · · · · HYUN JIN IN, PH.D., ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·1180 Peachtree Street, NE, 21st Floor
`·6· · · · · · ·Atlanta, Georgia 30309
`· · · · · · · ·cgreen@fr.com
`·7· · · · · · ·in@fr.com
`
`·8· · · · On behalf of the Patent Owner and Witness:
`
`·9· · · · · · ·NIXON PEABODY LLP
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· MATTHEW A. WERBER, ESQ.
`10· · · · · · ·70 West Madison Street
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 5200
`11· · · · · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60602
`· · · · · · · ·(312) 977-4400
`12· · · · · · ·mwerber@nixonpeabody.com
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`·2· · · · · · · WITNESS:· GLENN REINMAN, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATIONS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. GREEN:.......................................· · 5
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Page· · ·Line
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·None
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`·1· · · · · · ·Tuesday, January 24, 2023, 8:03 a.m.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · GLENN REINMAN, PH.D.,
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · called as a witness,
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`·5· · · · · · ·was sworn and testified as follows:
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`·6· · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Good morning, Dr. Reinman.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·MR. GREEN:· Do you need us to make
`
`·9· ·announcements, Madam Court Reporter?
`
`10· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· No.
`
`11· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Just in the great tradition of
`
`13· ·depositions, I will state that, Dr. Reinman, thank you
`
`14· ·for appearing for the deposition today.· We met once
`
`15· ·before, I note, but for the record, my name is
`
`16· ·Christopher Green.· I'm with the law firm of Fish &
`
`17· ·Richardson.· I'm appearing today on behalf of Samsung.
`
`18· · · · · · ·May I ask you a few questions before we begin
`
`19· ·the substantive part of our day?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·All right.· I know you've been deposed before,
`
`22· ·so can we agree to work with each other on some of the
`
`23· ·basic mechanics, things like not speaking over each
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`24· ·other, waiting for questions to be complete.· I'll do my
`
`25· ·best to wait until your answers are complete, and if you
`
`5
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`
`
`·1· ·have any need for clarification of a question, please
`
`·2· ·ask for it at the time.· I'll do my best to clarify
`
`·3· ·today.
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Thank you.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·And if I ask questions and you provide an
`
`·7· ·answer, may I understand and accept that you answered
`
`·8· ·them in accordance with the oath you just took and
`
`·9· ·without need for further clarification?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Thank you.
`
`12· · · · · · ·What did you do to prepare for today's
`
`13· ·deposition, Dr. Reinman?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·I read over my report.· I spoke with
`
`15· ·Mr. Werber on two occasions.· I think that's it.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·When you say your report, are you referring to
`
`17· ·your declaration?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Apologies, yes, my declaration.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·I was not trying to -- I just wanted to make
`
`20· ·sure I understand what document we were thinking of.
`
`21· · · · · · ·And did you review one such declaration or
`
`22· ·multiple of it?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·I only had one declaration for the '658, I
`
`24· ·believe, so it would just be one.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And approximately how much time did you
`
`6
`
`
`
`·1· ·spend meeting with MemoryWeb's attorneys?
`
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Sorry, just one second.· Did you
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`·3· ·say '658?
`
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes, I said '658.· Sorry, it's
`
`·5· ·not '658 for this one.· This is '228.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· No, this is the '658.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· '658, okay.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Likely a repeated number.· Sorry
`
`·9· ·about that.
`
`10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sure.
`
`11· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·So, Dr. Reinman, do you need to clarify or
`
`13· ·amend anything that you've stated so far?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·Let me just look at -- I'm just pulling up a
`
`15· ·version of my report to make sure I am talking about the
`
`16· ·correct patent number.· '658.· Yep.· Nothing needs to be
`
`17· ·amended.· Thank you, though.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Very well.
`
`19· · · · · · ·So approximately how much time did you spend
`
`20· ·speaking to Mr. Werber or others of MemoryWeb's
`
`21· ·attorneys?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Maybe five hours, something like that.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·Five hours across two separate meetings, I
`
`24· ·think you said?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`7
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`·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you mentioned that you're pulling
`
`·2· ·up a copy of your declaration.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·Do you have other things available to you
`
`·4· ·there where you are situated today?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·No, sir.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And are you, I guess, for the purpose
`
`·7· ·of this deposition, using a personal laptop or a laptop
`
`·8· ·of some kind that has -- it sounds like it has saved to
`
`·9· ·it at least some of the materials you anticipated
`
`10· ·needing to reference during today's deposition?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·That's fair, yes, sir.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Can you -- so that I understand what
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`13· ·you have available to you, can you tell me what you have
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`14· ·there on your device?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`
`16· · · · · · ·So in terms of what's open right now, I have
`
`17· ·our Zoom session, and I have the -- the declaration.· In
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`18· ·terms of what else is on this device, I think I have --
`
`19· ·let me -- let me just navigate to where everything is.
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`20· · · · · · ·I think I have the exhibits that were
`
`21· ·attached.· Let's see.· I have a copy of Okamura, a copy
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`22· ·of Belitz, and I think I -- I don't see anything else.
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`23· ·I think that's it.
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`24· · · · · · ·I can get more documents.· I might have more
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`25· ·things on this laptop, but at least in terms of the
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`8
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`
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`·1· ·folder I have open right now, it's Okamura and Belitz.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you have only the one device in
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`·3· ·use at the moment?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.· My phone is not in this room right
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`·5· ·now.
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`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I trust everyone here is using only
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`·7· ·the device that's being used for the deposition.
`
`·8· ·There's no ancillary channels of communication open at
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`·9· ·this time?
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`10· · · · A.· ·No, sir.
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`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Very well.· Thank you.
`
`12· · · · · · ·I'm going to drop a document into the chat
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`13· ·window of this Zoom, and, number one, I think we'll be
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`14· ·using it since it is the '658 patent, and, number two,
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`15· ·it will help us confirm that our communication lines is
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`16· ·open here.
`
`17· · · · A.· ·I see it.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Very well.
`
`19· · · · · · ·Okay.· So before we delve into the '658
`
`20· ·patent, please, Dr. Reinman, do you understand that
`
`21· ·today we're going to be talking about numerous prior art
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`22· ·references, including, for example, the Okamura
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`23· ·reference and the Belitz reference?
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`24· · · · A.· ·Those are familiar to me.· If you're saying --
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`25· ·I mean, we're going where you want to go, so I don't
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`9
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`·1· ·know what we're talking about today, but...
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·Well, I promise you I'm going to ask you about
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`·3· ·things that are in your declaration, and in your
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`·4· ·declaration is discussion of Okamura and Belitz as well
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`·5· ·as other things.
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`·6· · · · · · ·So can I take it on faith that you probably
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`·7· ·have done some work to review and prepare for questions
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`·8· ·about Okamura and Belitz, at least?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I think we agree that you have
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`11· ·provided testimony in IPR proceedings about references
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`12· ·such as Okamura and Belitz before; is that fair?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So here is the nut of my question, and
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`15· ·my question is this:· When your declaration concerning
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`16· ·the '658 patent addresses, characterizes, or gives other
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`17· ·descriptions of prior art references that you have
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`18· ·similarly addressed in other IPR proceedings, do you
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`19· ·have a different view of them here than you had in those
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`20· ·other proceedings?
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`21· · · · A.· ·I don't believe there's been any difference.
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`22· ·Certainly, you know, one's views can evolve, but I
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`23· ·don't -- I don't think there's any differences, no.
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`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So a number of the prior art references
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`25· ·that are discussed in your declaration or declarations
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`10
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`·1· ·concerning the '658 patent have been addressed in other
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`·2· ·declarations and in at least one other deposition; is
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`·3· ·that fair?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir, that's fair.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As we sit here today, do you have in
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`·6· ·mind any amendments or changes you need to make to the
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`·7· ·statements you have offered or the testimony you have
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`·8· ·offered concerning these prior art references?
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`·9· · · · A.· ·Not to my knowledge, sir, no.
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`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Very well.
`
`11· · · · · · ·All right.· If you would, please, open a copy
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`12· ·of the '658 patent that I dropped into the chat.
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`13· · · · · · ·And for the record, that has been premarked as
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`14· ·Exhibit 1001.· 1001.
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`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It's open now.
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. GREEN:· And for our court reporter, we
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`17· ·would -- most of these -- well, I think all of the
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`18· ·exhibits that we will use today have been assigned an
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`19· ·exhibit number in these proceedings, so we will not need
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`20· ·you to add additional note markings or numbers to them.
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`21· · · · · · ·If we may just use the numbers that come with
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`22· ·them, that would be -- that would be great.· Does that
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`23· ·work?· I get a thumbs-up.· All right.· Good.
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`24· ·BY MR. GREEN:
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`25· · · · Q.· ·Did you spend much time or any time reviewing
`
`11
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`·1· ·the '658 patent before as part of your deposition prep,
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`·2· ·please, Dr. Reinman?
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`·3· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir, I did.· I did spend some time
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`·4· ·looking at it.· That's fair.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·And would that include studying the claims of
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`·6· ·the '658 patent?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
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`·8· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And as we sit here today, are you
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`·9· ·able to understand and interpret the meaning of the
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`10· ·words and phrases in the '658 patent claims?
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`11· · · · A.· ·I would say that I definitely understand and
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`12· ·can interpret, but what I did not do was attempt to find
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`13· ·the balance of the patent as to all of the things it
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`14· ·could possibly apply to.
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`15· · · · · · ·I wrote a reply report or a reply declaration,
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`16· ·and so in that sense, I think the answer to your
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`17· ·question is yes, but with the caveat that my job is not
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`18· ·to attempt to partition the world into what's within the
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`19· ·patent and what's without the patent.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So you just referenced writing a reply
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`21· ·declaration, but earlier, you mentioned you only studied
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`22· ·one declaration in preparation for your deposition.
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`23· · · · A.· ·Well, sir, when you said what did I do in
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`24· ·preparation for my deposition, I took that as a
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`25· ·different question than what did I do to write my
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`12
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`·1· ·declaration.
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`·2· · · · Q.· ·I'm genuinely not trying to be tricky. I
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`·3· ·guess my question is this:· Did you review each
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`·4· ·declaration or statement of any kind that you have
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`·5· ·submitted in this proceeding as part of your preparation
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`·6· ·for today?
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`·7· · · · A.· ·I just looked at the declaration for the '658,
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`·8· ·sir, but I just wanted to make sure I'm clear because
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`·9· ·maybe I misunderstood your question.
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`10· · · · · · ·I certainly looked at what Dr. Greenspun had
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`11· ·written about the '658 when I wanted to reply and write
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`12· ·my declaration.· It's just that I did not look at that
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`13· ·for preparation for today's deposition.
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`14· · · · Q.· ·Very well.· Understood.
`
`15· · · · · · ·Okay.· And earlier when I asked you about the
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`16· ·meaning and interpretation of claims, I think you
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`17· ·said -- I wanted to ask for some clarification of one
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`18· ·thing that you said.· You mentioned that it was not your
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`19· ·job to attempt to partition the words according to
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`20· ·what's within the patent.
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`21· · · · · · ·I am not trying to be tricky, but I am
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`22· ·genuinely curious as to what you meant so that I can ask
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`23· ·you questions as to things that are your opinion as
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`24· ·opposed to things that are not.
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`25· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Object as to form.
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`13
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`·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm happy you asked that, sir.
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`·2· ·I didn't say "words."· I was saying "worlds."· And so
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`·3· ·just to make sure we're clear, you know, the patent
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`·4· ·scope, you know, the scope of what it might apply to in
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`·5· ·terms of trying to figure out the metes and bounds of
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`·6· ·everything this patent can apply to was not the role I
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`·7· ·was asked to perform.
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`·8· · · · · · ·What I was asked was to respond to the pieces
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`·9· ·of prior art that were provided by Dr. Greenspun and
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`10· ·others and address whether or not that those were the
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`11· ·same as or encompassed the claims of the patent.
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`12· · · · · · ·So clearly I had to understand the patent. I
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`13· ·had to understand the claims at issue, but I'm just --
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`14· ·what I'm trying to communicate is it wasn't my job to
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`15· ·cover the full metes and bounds of what this patent
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`16· ·could apply to.
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`17· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So perhaps what you're telling me is
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`19· ·that you have studied or performed some comparison of
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`20· ·prior art as identified in at least Dr. Greenspun's
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`21· ·declaration to the '658 patent, but you've not attempted
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`22· ·to interpret the '658 patent scope for all purposes?
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`23· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form.
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`24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that I would put it
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`25· ·that way.· I certainly would have interpreted it in and
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`14
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`·1· ·of itself.· Let me -- let me try to make it more clear,
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`·2· ·perhaps.
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`·3· · · · · · ·I read the patent.· I read it as one of
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`·4· ·ordinary skill in the art and tried to interpret the
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`·5· ·claims and such and tried to form an understanding of
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`·6· ·what the patent was directed towards.
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`·7· · · · · · ·I responded in my declaration to what
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`·8· ·Dr. Greenspun had alleged were pieces of prior art that
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`·9· ·would either render obvious or anticipation, or whatever
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`10· ·the terminology would be.
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`11· · · · · · ·And then, you know, what I'm saying is a
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`12· ·further step that I did not perform was to attempt to,
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`13· ·you know, look at all of the possible designs that are
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`14· ·out in the world that Dr. Greenspun perhaps did not
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`15· ·bring up and try to determine whether or not they would
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`16· ·match the patent, what the full bounds of what the
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`17· ·patent would be.
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`18· · · · · · ·So it wasn't my job to say, you know, can this
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`19· ·patent be applied to arbitrary reference X or arbitrary
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`20· ·reference Y.· That's not something that I was asked to
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`21· ·perform in my review of the material.
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`22· ·BY MR. GREEN:
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`23· · · · Q.· ·Was your interpretation of the claims of the
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`24· ·'658 patent informed by the prior art that Samsung has
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`25· ·identified in this proceeding as invalidating the '658
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`15
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`
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`·1· ·patent?
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`·2· · · · A.· ·No, sir.· As I said in my last response, the
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`·3· ·first thing I did was read the patent and then interpret
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`·4· ·the claims to understand them.· When I wrote my
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`·5· ·declaration, I was responding to Dr. Greenspun, but that
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`·6· ·did not inform how I interpret the claims.
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`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you -- understanding that the
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`·8· ·first thing you did was read the patent and understand
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`·9· ·and interpret the claims, if you were asked to explain
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`10· ·and interpret the claims today, are you able to do that?
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`11· · · · A.· ·If I'm asked to explain --
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`12· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Object as to form.
`
`13· · · · · · ·And just give me a moment to state them on the
`
`14· ·record.· Thank you.
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sorry.· I have to be extra
`
`16· ·cautious when we're on Zoom with delay.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So I'm happy to explain whatever I can.· If
`
`18· ·the idea would be, you know, tell me what this element
`
`19· ·of the claim means and how it delineates the world, then
`
`20· ·that's not something I'm prepared to do, I'm not
`
`21· ·prepared to form an opinion on.
`
`22· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·You're not.· Okay.
`
`24· · · · A.· ·If it's construct this term and give me what
`
`25· ·the definition is that you would want to put in a court
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· ·of law.· If I have not provided that in my report, I
`
`·2· ·haven't sat down to think about, you know, an improper
`
`·3· ·term or I'm limiting the scope of what a claim could
`
`·4· ·mean is not, you know, what I'm here to do.· I don't --
`
`·5· ·I haven't tried to make that definition.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's -- let's move forward, and
`
`·7· ·we'll address the things that we can.
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·All right.· Okay.· Do you recall that the '658
`
`10· ·patent claims use the term "application view"?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·Yes, sir.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·All right.· What is your understanding of an
`
`13· ·application view as that term is used in the '658 patent
`
`14· ·claims and specification?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·I think they mention it in the spec in a
`
`16· ·number of places and they give some examples of
`
`17· ·different application views.· I didn't try to come to a
`
`18· ·term of art for how to define a view itself, but --
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·You did, or you did not?· I'm sorry.
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Sorry?
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·You did, or you did not?· I'm sorry.
`
`22· · · · A.· ·I did not try to come up with a definition, or
`
`23· ·I was not asked to provide a definition for application
`
`24· ·view.· I think --
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·-- given the claims and the patent, I think
`
`·2· ·it's clear what examples of an application view would
`
`·3· ·be, and there's enumeration of what they would have to
`
`·4· ·include.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·I think in terms of the claims, the most
`
`·6· ·important part was that the application view is a
`
`·7· ·distinct view from the other enumerated views within the
`
`·8· ·claims.· But I did not try to come up with a definition
`
`·9· ·for application view.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Is it your opinion that figure 35 of
`
`11· ·the '658 patent represents an application view?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Let me get to Figure 35.
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Object to form.
`
`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think it's fair that Figure 35
`
`15· ·shows an application view.· I think that's fair.
`
`16· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And specifically what is it about
`
`18· ·Figure 35 that causes the figure to conform to your
`
`19· ·understanding or definition of an application view?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Well, one -- one indicia is, within the patent
`
`21· ·itself, when they talk about Figure 35, they talk about
`
`22· ·it as the uploads application view.· And I believe in
`
`23· ·other places as well, when they are enumerating
`
`24· ·different application view, they mention uploads as a
`
`25· ·potential application view.· But I think that labeling,
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·in and of itself, is one indicia.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·I think it also helps, for the purposes of the
`
`·3· ·claim, that it has, you know, the connections.· It has
`
`·4· ·the navigational, the components, and ability that you
`
`·5· ·could go from this application view to one of the other
`
`·6· ·application views mentioned in the claims.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you agree with me that, as shown
`
`·8· ·in Figure 35, a user can upload photographs to the
`
`·9· ·application?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Sorry, I went to the text.· Let me go back to
`
`11· ·the figure itself.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Let's see.· So it's a little hard to read, but
`
`13· ·on 1701, it does look like they have an upload.
`
`14· · · · · · ·(Court reporter requested clarification.)
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It does look like it has an
`
`16· ·upload.· Apparently my -- I need to work on articulating
`
`17· ·better today.
`
`18· · · · · · ·It does look like it has an upload.· And I
`
`19· ·think -- I think that's fair what you -- what your
`
`20· ·question was.· That's a "yes."
`
`21· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Are you referring to element 1701 of Figure 35
`
`23· ·as indicating that a user can upload photographs?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Let me see what it says.· The text is a little
`
`25· ·hard to read on this particular copy, but let me see if
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·I can find 1701 in the text.· See if I can find that. I
`
`·2· ·don't know if this copy is searchable.· Upload files,
`
`·3· ·yes, 1701.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Would you agree with me that, in the user
`
`·5· ·interface you have shown in Figure 35, the user can
`
`·6· ·navigate through photos or files that have been
`
`·7· ·uploaded?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·I guess you could call it navigation.· You are
`
`·9· ·certainly able to select -- so I think that's fair.
`
`10· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What operations may a user perform on
`
`12· ·uploaded files and photographs via the user interface
`
`13· ·shown in Figure 35?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form and scope.
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, I can say that they have a
`
`16· ·"Delete Selected" button, but I don't really know what
`
`17· ·other functionality is present.· I really haven't
`
`18· ·analyzed this particular case, but at least I can say
`
`19· ·that there's a "Delete Selected" button.
`
`20· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And what do you understand the "Delete
`
`22· ·Selected" button in Figure 35 to indicate as a
`
`23· ·functionality available to the user?
`
`24· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.· Form.· Scope.
`
`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Let me look at what 1715 is
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· ·referenced in the text.· According to the spec, if the
`
`·2· ·user wants to delete digital files, they can select the
`
`·3· ·digital files to be deleted and then select the delete
`
`·4· ·selection option.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So that's at least one example of what they
`
`·6· ·can perform on selected files.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would you agree that in Figure 35 the
`
`·9· ·user is able to sort uploaded photographs and files?
`
`10· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.· Form.· Scope.
`
`11· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·I can actually help, Dr. Reinman, with a more
`
`13· ·targeted question if you'll allow me to withdraw the one
`
`14· ·I just asked.
`
`15· · · · A.· ·Sure.· Okay.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So if you look at element 1703 of
`
`17· ·Figure 35, it's a drop-down list box with the label
`
`18· ·"Sort By."
`
`19· · · · · · ·Do you see that, please?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·Would you agree with me that the "Sort By"
`
`22· ·label on the drop-down list box labeled as element 1703
`
`23· ·suggests the user has the ability to sort files and
`
`24· ·photographs uploaded into this application?
`
`25· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In looking at the spec, it does
`
`·2· ·say that uploads and digital files can be listed in
`
`·3· ·various sort orders through a drop-down, 1703, and it
`
`·4· ·gives some examples of different sort orders.· So I
`
`·5· ·think that's fair.· Yes, sir.
`
`·6· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·All right.· And if you look further at the
`
`·8· ·upper right corner of the user interface shown in
`
`·9· ·Figure 35, you see the box with the label "Apply
`
`10· ·Filters"?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.
`
`12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I do see the box "Apply
`
`13· ·Filters," yes, sir.
`
`14· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And would the labeling of "Apply
`
`16· ·Filters," along with a variety of criteria provided on
`
`17· ·the right-hand side of the user interface on Figure 35,
`
`18· ·suggest that one function of the application view here
`
`19· ·is the ability to filter photos or files that have been
`
`20· ·uploaded?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.
`
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure if there is a
`
`23· ·correlation between what's in the window and what
`
`24· ·filters are possible to be applied, but it would
`
`25· ·certainly appear that there are some filters that could
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·be applied.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·What types of criteria can be used to filter
`
`·4· ·uploaded files in an application for storing or managing
`
`·5· ·photographs or files in general?
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·Are we just talking generally or what is
`
`·7· ·directed in this picture?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· Let me ask a better question.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·As a person of at least ordinary skill in the
`
`10· ·art, I would say, what types of filtering criteria may
`
`11· ·be used to search or filter files, including files such
`
`12· ·as photographs that have been stored in an application?
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form.
`
`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In a general sense, you know,
`
`15· ·this is detached from the patent just in terms of what
`
`16· ·one could filter for.· In the general sense, it could be
`
`17· ·the date, where something was taken, you know, whether
`
`18· ·certain individuals were tagged or found to be in the
`
`19· ·frame.· I think I said location already.· It could be
`
`20· ·based on the format or type of image that was collected.
`
`21· ·It could be different criteria.
`
`22· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·Would you agree with me that photographs or
`
`24· ·files stored in an application can be searched or
`
`25· ·filtered according to a name associated with the file?
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think searched, in general, is
`
`·3· ·something where you could search by name depending on
`
`·4· ·the application.· I don't know if filter by name is as
`
`·5· ·typical an operation.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Perhaps, you know, you would filter by a more
`
`·7· ·general type as opposed to something like a name but
`
`·8· ·maybe by the name of an individual in the picture.· That
`
`·9· ·could be possible.
`
`10· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Well, it's certainly possible to filter files,
`
`12· ·in general, including files that represent photographs,
`
`13· ·by file type; is that true?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· In the general sense, just, you
`
`16· ·know, apart from the patents at issue, yeah.· Sure.
`
`17· ·That is something that is possible, yeah.
`
`18· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And is it possible to filter or sort
`
`20· ·files, including files that represent photographs,
`
`21· ·according to some grouping or -- that has been assigned
`
`22· ·to them?
`
`23· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.
`
`24· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Let me ask a better question.
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·Would you agree with me that it's possible to
`
`·2· ·sort or filter files according to some type of a label
`
`·3· ·or a key that indicates the file is part of a collection
`
`·4· ·or a group?
`
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Scope.· Form.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I mean, it depends on the
`
`·7· ·application.· Some applications are provisioned with
`
`·8· ·that, and some are not.· In a general sense, that is
`
`·9· ·something that a designer could include in their
`
`10· ·application.
`
`11· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· The search -- well, withdrawn.
`
`13· · · · · · ·The criteria that we've been discussing for
`
`14· ·sorting or filtering or searching files, were all of
`
`15· ·those criteria known to persons of skill in this art as
`
`16· ·of the time the '658 patent was filed, or is it your --
`
`17· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection -- sorry.
`
`18· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·-- or is it your opinion that the '658 patent
`
`20· ·inventor somehow developed new types of criteria for
`
`21· ·searching, sorting, or filtering files, including
`
`22· ·photographs?
`
`23· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So I don't -- I don't think that
`
`25· ·the inventors of the '658 invented the idea of searching
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· ·or the idea of sorting or the idea of filtering.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·But, you know, I would say that in terms of
`
`·5· ·what was present in -- what was present in an
`
`·6· ·application or tool at the time was not something I was
`
`·7· ·asked to investigate to try to pinpoint the art.· I was
`
`·8· ·asked to look at, you know, the art that was being
`
`·9· ·provided by Dr. Greenspun.
`
`10· · · · · · ·And so that's -- you know, while I would agree
`
`11· ·that, you know, there were applications that performed
`
`12· ·searching or sorting or filtering in some manner, I did
`
`13· ·not try and pinpoint that to the timeframe of the
`
`14· ·patent.
`
`15· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Would I be correct that, as someone of
`
`17· ·some experience in this field of computer science, you
`
`18· ·were familiar with systems that, at least as a general
`
`19· ·principle, had the capability to search, sort, or filter
`
`20· ·files?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objection.· Form.· Scope.
`
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm sure, yes, at the time, that
`
`23· ·there were some applications that could search, sort, or
`
`24· ·filter some kind of file.· That's fair.
`
`25· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And based on your own education,
`
`·2· ·experience, and training, when you reviewed the '658
`
`·3· ·patent, did you identify any particularly new or
`
`·4· ·distinct techniques for searching or sorting or
`
`·5· ·filtering files according to any previously unknown or
`
`·6· ·at least unused type of criteria?
`
`·7· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.· Form.· Scope.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I did not form an opinion on
`
`·9· ·that.· I was not looking or directing my explorations to
`
`10· ·that particular question.· So nothing -- at this point
`
`11· ·in time, I don't have an opinion on it.
`
`12· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· As we sit here, are you able to
`
`14· ·identify anything about the particular way that the
`
`15· ·system claimed in the '658 patent manipulates files,
`
`16· ·whether it's searching or sorting or filtering, that was
`
`17· ·previously unknown in this field?
`
`18· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Same objections.· Form.· Scope.
`
`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I mean, that's not something
`
`20· ·that I could easily just, you know, do here sitting here
`
`21· ·today on camera.· I'm happy to try to read through and
`
`22· ·try to refresh, but that kind of investigation would
`
`23· ·require, you know, an analysis of other art and a
`
`24· ·comparative analysis and to really kind of dig in.
`
`25· · · · · · ·I'm happy to look at it, but I don't want to
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· ·waste everyone's time here today when it may require
`
`·2· ·more time to really delve into that question.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, I don't mean to assign you
`
`·5· ·homework today; although, that might be an interesting
`
`·6· ·role as a professor at UCLA and my job.· Maybe we leave
`
`·7· ·the topic this way:
`
`·8· · · · · · ·As we sit here today, is there any place in
`
`·9· ·your declaration that you identify a technique that the
`
`10· ·'658 patent discloses or claims for searching,
`
`11· ·filtering, or sorting files that was previously unknown
`
`12· ·in the field?
`
`13· · · · · · ·And I believe the answer is no, because you
`
`14· ·weren't asked to do that.
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. WERBER:· Objection.· Form and scope.
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't believe I have anything
`
`17· ·in my report to that extent.
`
`18· ·BY MR. GREEN:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Thank you.· All right.
`
`20· · · · · · ·All right.· If we continued looking at the
`
`21· ·claim language of the '658 patent and staying with claim
`
`22· ·element 1(a) where the term "application view" appears,
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