`Data Co. v. Bright Data
`IPR2022-00135
`
`
`
`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL
`OUTSIDE ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY - SOURCE CODE
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`THE DATA COMPANY TECHNOLOGIES, INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
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`BRIGHT DATA LTD.,
`
`Patent Owner,
`
`CASE NO. IPR2022-00135
`
`PATENT NO. 10,257,319
`
`VIRTUAL DEPOSITION OF DR. TIM A. WILLIAMS
`
`WITNESS LOCATION: DANVILLE, CALIFORNIA
`
`Thursday, November 3, 2022
`
`9:13 a.m. PDT
`
`Reported by: Jill E. Shepherd, RPR, CA CSR 13275,
`
`NV CCR 948
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`Job No. 105427
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`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`2
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`1 VIRTUAL DEPOSITION OF DR. TIM A. WILLIAMS,
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`2 a witness called on behalf of the Petitioner, before
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`3 Jill E. Shepherd, RPR, NV-CCR #948, CA-CSR #13275,
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`4 on Thursday, November 3, 2022, 9:13 a.m. PDT.
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` VIRTUAL APPEARANCES:
`
` For the Petitioner:
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`5 6 7
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`8 9
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`10 WOLF GREENFIELD & SACKS, P.C.
` By: Michael N. Rader, Esq.
`11 Adam Wichman, Esq.
` 600 Atlantic Avenue
`12 Boston, Massachusetts 02210-2206
` 617.646.8000
`13 Michael.Rader@WolfGreenfield.com
` Adam.Wichman@wolfgreenfield.com
`14
`
`15
` For the Patent Owner:
`16
` CHERIAN LLP
`17 By: Thomas M. Dunham, Esq.
` Elizabeth A. O'Brien, Esq.
`18 1901 L Street NW, Suite 700
` Washington, D.C. 20036
`19 202.838.1567
` tomd@cherianllp.com
`20 elizabetho@cherianllp.com
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`3
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`1 I N D E X
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`2 WITNESS PAGE
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`3 DR. TIM A. WILLIAMS
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`4 Examination by Mr. Rader 5
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`5 Examination by Mr. Dunham 101
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` E X H I B I T S
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`6 7 8
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`9
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`10 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`11 Williams 1080 Patent No. US 68
` 2003/0009518A1 (Harrow)
`12
` Williams 2054 Errata Sheet from Dr. 101
`13 Williams (to be provided)
`
`14 Williams 2055 E-mail from Elizabeth 101
` O'Brien to Counsel,
`15 11/2/2022 @ 11:39 a.m.
` Re: IPR2022-00135 and
`16 -00138 - HC - OAEO -
` Source Code
`17
` (Highly Confidential -
`18 Outside Attorneys' Eyes
` Only - Source Code)
`19
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`22
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`24
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`25
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`4
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`1 Thursday, November 3, 2022
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`2 8:59 a.m.
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`3 * * * * *
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`4 THE COURT REPORTER: Good morning. Today's
`
`5 date is Thursday, November 3, 2022, and the time is
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`6 approximately 8:59 a.m. This is the deposition of
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`7 Dr. Tim A. Williams, in the matter of The Data
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`8 Company Technologies, Inc., versus Bright Data Ltd.,
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`9 venued in the United States Patent and Trademark
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`10 Office, before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board,
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`11 Case Number IPR2022-00135, regarding Patent Number
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`12 10,257,319.
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`13 My name is Jill Shepherd. I am a Certified
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`14 Court Reporter, here on behalf of O'Brien and Levine
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`15 Court Reporting Solutions.
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`16 At this time, I will ask counsel to
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`17 identify themselves, state whom they represent, and
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`18 agree on the record that there is no objection to
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`19 this court reporter administering a binding oath via
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`20 Zoom. If no objection is stated, we will proceed
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`21 forward with the agreement of all counsel. We will
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`22 begin appearances with the noticing attorney.
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`23 MR. RADER: Thank you. My name is Michael
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`24 Rader from Wolf Greenfield on behalf of the
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`25 petitioner, The Data Company Technologies, Inc., and
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`5
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`1 we have no objection.
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`2 MR. DUNHAM: This is Tom Dunham on behalf
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`3 of patent owner and Bright Data, and with me is
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`4 Elizabeth O'Brien, and we have no objection.
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`5 MR. WICHMAN: And this is Adam Wichman with
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`6 Wolf Greenfield, also for petitioner.
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`7 * * * * *
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`8 Whereupon,
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`9 DR. TIM A. WILLIAMS,
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`10 a witness, called for examination by counsel for
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`11 Petitioner, being first sworn, was examined and
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`12 testified as follows:
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`13 * * * * *
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`14 * * * * *
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`15 EXAMINATION
`
`16 BY MR. RADER:
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`17 Q. All right. Good morning. Thank you,
`
`18 Dr. Williams. It's nice to see you again.
`
`19 A. Nice to see you.
`
`20 Q. You're here to testify in connection with
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`21 two separate IPRs, right?
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`22 A. Correct.
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`23 Q. All right. Now, one of those IPRs is
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`24 number IPR2022-00138 and it concerns U.S. Patent
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`25 Number 10,484,510.
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`6
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`1 Did I get that right?
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`2 A. I don't have the numbers in front of me.
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`3 Q. Take a look at your declaration. One of
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`4 your declarations is behind Tab 2 in your binder.
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`5 A. This is about IPR2022-00135 and 138.
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`6 Q. Okay.
`
`7 And, yeah, I just want to get the
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`8 terminology down.
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`9 So if I refer to those for shorthand as the
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`10 "138 IPR" and the "135 IPR," will you understand me?
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`11 A. Yes. But I'd prefer to talk about the
`
`12 patent numbers.
`
`13 Q. Sure.
`
`14 And the 138 IPR is U.S. Patent Number
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`15 10,484,510?
`
`16 A. Yes.
`
`17 Q. And the 135 IPR is U.S. Patent Number
`
`18 10,257,319?
`
`19 A. Yes.
`
`20 Q. And so if I -- sounds like you are pretty
`
`21 comfortable with those numbers. If I use the
`
`22 shorthand 51 -- or '510 on the one hand and '319 on
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`23 the other, you will understand I'm referring to
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`24 those patents?
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`25 A. Yes.
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`7
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`1 Q. You provided testimony in the form of a
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`2 declaration in each of the two IPRs we just
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`3 referenced; is that right?
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`4 A. I have.
`
`5 Q. Okay.
`
`6 And you are prepared today to answer
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`7 questions about your testimony in each of those two
`
`8 proceedings?
`
`9 A. I am.
`
`10 Q. Okay.
`
`11 You should have received from us by FedEx
`
`12 two binders of materials behind numbered tabs; is
`
`13 that accurate?
`
`14 A. I opened the first box and there's a
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`15 binder. I haven't opened the second box yet.
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`16 Q. Okay. You may as well just open it now so
`
`17 you have access to it.
`
`18 A. Okay. I have it.
`
`19 Q. Okay. Great.
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`20 And just so you know, most, if not all, of
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`21 the documents about which I intend to ask questions
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`22 are in these binders, so it will be convenient for
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`23 you to have the hard copies. If for some reason
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`24 there's something that didn't make it in, I can use
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`25 eDepoze, but I did send an e-mail to the attorneys
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`8
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`1 yesterday. Hopefully you were updated.
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`2 For some reason we forgot to include in the
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`3 binders the '510 and '319 patents.
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`4 Do you have copies of those of your own
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`5 available for you to look at?
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`6 A. Yes, I have clean copies.
`
`7 Q. Okay. Terrific. Thank you.
`
`8 All right. I'd like to start just by
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`9 confirming your understanding of a few technical
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`10 things.
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`11 What is an IP address?
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`12 A. An IP address is an address used within a
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`13 suite of protocols called the Internet protocols.
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`14 Q. And how is an IP address used, generally
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`15 speaking, within that suite of protocols?
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`16 A. It indicates -- it indicates an address of
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`17 the device on the protocol network.
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`18 Q. And how would an IP address be assigned to
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`19 a particular device on that network?
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`20 MR. DUNHAM: Objection. Form.
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`21 A. In general, there's a committee that
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`22 assigns IP addresses to various service providers
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`23 and those addresses are allocated by the service
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`24 providers.
`
`25 ///
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`9
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`1 BY MR. RADER:
`
`2 Q. So if I log on to the Internet with a
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`3 device from my home, for example, is my public IP
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`4 address assigned by my Internet service provider?
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`5 A. What do you mean by your "public IP
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`6 address"?
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`7 Q. Let me -- maybe I added a word. I will
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`8 just rephrase it.
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`9 If I log on to the Internet with, let's
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`10 say, my laptop at home, how does my laptop get an IP
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`11 address?
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`12 A. Well, based on the contract that you have
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`13 with your service provider, you've been assigned an
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`14 IP address or any dynamic -- a range of dynamic IP
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`15 addresses and those are allocated by the service
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`16 provider to your laptop or your house.
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`17 Q. Okay.
`
`18 And what is a MAC address?
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`19 A. A MAC address is the address that's
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`20 assigned to the actual hardware for the Internet
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`21 interface cards or devices.
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`22 Q. And do you understand correctly that MAC
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`23 stands for media access control?
`
`24 A. That's correct.
`
`25 Q. I'm sorry, to what piece of hardware did
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`10
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`1 you say the MAC address is assigned?
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`2 A. Well, traditionally, it was the -- it was
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`3 the Ethernet interface card, but today it's in all
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`4 sorts of chips and devices.
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`5 Q. Okay.
`
`6 And how are MAC addresses assigned to those
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`7 chips and devices?
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`8 A. Did you say assigned or defined?
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`9 Q. Assigned.
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`10 A. Yes. There's an industry standard
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`11 committee that assigns ranges of MAC addresses to
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`12 various companies that are producing the interface
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`13 devices.
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`14 Q. So does every device, like a computer or a
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`15 tablet or -- and so on, that is going to have either
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`16 WiFi or Ethernet access, does it need to have one of
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`17 these cards with a MAC address?
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`18 A. As I said, it doesn't necessarily have to
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`19 be a card anymore. I said traditionally it was a
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`20 card.
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`21 Q. Okay. Yes. So let me just try to ask it
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`22 more simply.
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`23 Am I correct to understand that every
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`24 device that connects to WiFi or Ethernet has a MAC
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`25 address?
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
`888.825.3376 - production@court-reporting.com
`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`11
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`1 A. Every device that connects to Ethernet has
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`2 a MAC address.
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`3 Q. And what about WiFi?
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`4 A. Every device that connects to WiFi has a
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`5 MAC address.
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`6 Q. Okay.
`
`7 All right. Let's pull out the '510 patent,
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`8 if we could. I know you said you had a copy of it.
`
`9 A. Yeah. Just a second.
`
`10 Okay. I have it.
`
`11 Q. Okay. Great.
`
`12 First of all, do you understand that the
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`13 '510 patent and the '319 patent share the same
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`14 specification?
`
`15 A. That's my understanding.
`
`16 Q. Okay.
`
`17 I just want to refresh us on a little bit
`
`18 of background about some things in the patent. So
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`19 if you could turn to Figure 3, please.
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`20 You are familiar with Figure 3, I take it?
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`21 A. I am.
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`22 Q. I guess I should say for the record that
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`23 the '510 patent in the IPR proceeding or related to
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`24 the '510 patent is Exhibit 1001.
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`25 And if you could turn to Column 4 of the
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
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`
`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`12
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`1 patent just for a second where it talks about
`
`2 Figure 3.
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`3 A. Yes.
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`4 Q. Do you see about line 8 it says:
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`5 "Figure" -- sorry. At about line 5, it says:
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`6 "Figure 3 is a schematic diagram providing an
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`7 example of a communication network in accordance
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`8 with the present convention."
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`9 Do you see that?
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`10 A. Column 3, line 55?
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`11 Q. No. Sorry. I better back up.
`
`12 You see at the top of Column 4 in the '510
`
`13 patent it talks about figures?
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`14 A. Description of the figure?
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`15 Q. Yeah.
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`16 A. Yes. I see the description of the figure.
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`17 Q. Okay.
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`18 And the description of the figure is that
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`19 Figure 3 is a schematic diagram providing an example
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`20 of a communication network in accordance with the
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`21 present invention, right?
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`22 A. That's what it says, yes.
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`23 Q. Okay.
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`24 Now, in Figure 3, if you look to Figure 3,
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`25 it includes the client 102, right?
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
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`13
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`1 A. Yes.
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`2 Q. It includes an agent of 122?
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`3 A. Yes.
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`4 Q. And it includes peers 112 and 114 of 116.
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`5 A. Correct.
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`6 Q. Now, on the next page you have Figure 4.
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`7 We can look at that.
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`8 A. Yes.
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`9 Q. Figure 4 depicts communication device 200;
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`10 is that right?
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`11 A. Yes.
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`12 Q. All right.
`
`13 And communication device 200 has, among
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`14 other things, an acceleration application 220 on the
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`15 right-hand side?
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`16 A. Yes.
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`17 Q. All right. And then if we want to know
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`18 more about that, if you turn to Figure 6, please.
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`19 A. Yes.
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`20 Q. Figure 6 provides some more information
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`21 about the acceleration application 220, correct?
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`22 A. Yes.
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`23 Q. The acceleration application 220 includes
`
`24 the four modules that are depicted in Figure 6?
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`25 A. There are four modules depicted in
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`14
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`1 Figure 6.
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`2 Q. Okay.
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`3 So one -- skipping the first one, one of
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`4 the modules in acceleration application 220 is the
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`5 client module 224?
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`6 A. Yes.
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`7 Q. And that has the peer module 226?
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`8 A. Yes.
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`9 Q. And then it has the agent module 228?
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`10 A. Yes.
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`11 Q. All right.
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`12 Now, in your declaration you explain that
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`13 each communication device 200 is configured to
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`14 operate either as the clients appear or an agent as
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`15 necessary.
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`16 Do you recall that?
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`17 A. I do.
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`18 Q. Okay.
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`19 And if we could turn, behind Tab 2 is your
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`20 declaration, Exhibit 2044, in the IPR related to the
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`21 '510 patent.
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`22 A. Yes.
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`23 Q. That paragraph 61 on page 30 is where you
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`24 talk about each communication device being
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`25 configured to operate as a client agent or peer as
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`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`15
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`1 necessary.
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`2 Do you see that?
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`3 A. Paragraph 61 says what it says, yes.
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`4 Q. Okay.
`
`5 You see where you refer to the phrase
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`6 "communication device" in paragraph 61?
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`7 A. Yes.
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`8 Q. Is that a reference to the communication
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`9 device 200 of Figure 4 that we looked at a couple
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`10 moments ago?
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`11 A. (Witness reviewing document.)
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`12 Can I have the question again, please?
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`13 Q. Sure. I was just asking whether, when you
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`14 use the phrase "communication device" in
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`15 paragraph 61, you are talking about communication
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`16 device 200 of Figure 4 that we were looking at.
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`17 A. Yes.
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`18 MR. DUNHAM: Objection. Form.
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`19 A. Yes.
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`20 BY MR. RADER:
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`21 Q. All right.
`
`22 And as I think you also just testified, so
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`23 the communication device 200 of Figure 4 of the
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`24 acceleration application, which, in turn, as shown
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`25 in Figure 6, contains the client module, agent
`
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`16
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`1 module, and peer module; is that right?
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`2 A. Well, these are embodiments of how -- the
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`3 capabilities of these devices, so it's not the only
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`4 functionality of the device.
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`5 Q. But as reflected in the figures, the
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`6 communication device 200 of Figure 4 does have the
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`7 acceleration application which, in turn, for
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`8 Figure 6, has the three modules that we talked
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`9 about?
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`10 A. Yes. As disclosed in the -- in these
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`11 figures as an example, yes.
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`12 Q. All right. Now, if you could turn in the
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`13 same -- your same declaration, Exhibit 2044, in the
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`14 '510 patent IPR at page 33.
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`15 A. Yes.
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`16 Q. Now, this is a modified version of Figure 3
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`17 from the patent; is that right?
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`18 A. It is.
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`19 Q. Okay.
`
`20 The modification is that you've inserted a
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`21 proxy server in between the client 102 and the
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`22 agent 102?
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`23 A. I did.
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`24 Q. If my eyesight is back here, you circled
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`25 "client 102" in purple; is that fair?
`
`O'Brien & Levine, A Magna Legal Services Company
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`17
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`1 A. Yes.
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`2 Q. And client 102 is a communication device
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`3 200?
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`4 A. It can be, yes.
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`5 Q. And then you circled "agent 122" in red?
`
`6 A. Yes.
`
`7 Q. And agent 122 is a communication device
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`8 200?
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`9 A. 200 is an example of what agent 122 can be.
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`10 Q. And you have some color-coded language in
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`11 paragraph 64 just above the modified figure.
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`12 At the very bottom of page 32, you've
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`13 colored the phrase "first client device" in red.
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`14 Do you see that?
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`15 A. Yes.
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`16 Q. And by coloring that in red, you are
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`17 indicating a correspondence to the agent 122 in your
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`18 modified figure?
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`19 A. Yes.
`
`20 Q. Now, "first client device" is a phrase from
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`21 the claims of the '510 and '319 patents, right?
`
`22 A. It is.
`
`23 Q. So based on what you are showing here with
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`24 the color coding, agent 122, which is a
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`25 communication device 200, corresponds to the first
`
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`
`
`The Data Company Technologies Inc. vsAttorneys Eyes Only
`
`
`Bright Data LTD.
`
`Dr. Tim A. Williams
`
`18
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`1 client device of the claims?
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`2 A. As we discussed before, 200 is an example
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`3 of a client device -- of a communication device, so
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`4 it's not necessarily a one-to-one relationship.
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`5 Q. As an example of a first client device, you
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`6 are saying that agent 122, which is a communication
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`7 device 200, is an exemplary correspondence to the
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`8 first client device of the claims?
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`9 A. No. I'm saying agent 122 can be
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`10 implemented in multiple ways. Device 200 is an
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`11 example of a way in which that can be implemented.
`
`12 Q. So when agent 122 is implemented as a
`
`13 client device 200, your color coding indicates that
`
`14 it corresponds to the first client device of the
`
`15 claims; is that fair?
`
`16 A. I want it to be clearly understood that
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`17 communication device 200 is not the only form and
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`18 function of agent 122 or client 102.
`
`19 Q. I understand. I'm just asking you right
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`20 now about client device 200 [verbatim].
`
`21 Are you following me?
`
`22 A. Well, 200 is a communication device, so
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`23 please use your words correctly.
`
`24 Q. Sure.
`
`25 Let's see. If you could turn to -- let me
`
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`19
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`1 try to rephrase my question. I think I -- I think I
`
`2 know what you are getting at.
`
`3 We were talking about something that the
`
`4 patent refers to as communication device 200, right?
`
`5 A. Yes, we were.
`
`6 Q. Okay.
`
`7 And agent 122 is a communication device
`
`8 200?
`
`9 A. Agent 122 can be implemented as
`
`10 communication device 200. It can also be
`
`11 implemented as other -- in other functionality and
`
`12 forms.
`
`13 Q. Well, when agent 122 is implemented as
`
`14 communication device 200, your color coding
`
`15 indicates that it corresponds to the first client
`
`16 device of the claims?
`
`17 A. That's one example, yes.
`
`18 Q. Now, is there any other place where the
`
`19 '510 patent specification describes specifically a
`
`20 different implementation of agent 122 other than
`
`21 communication device 200?
`
`22 A. Well, a POSITA would know that device 122
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`23 doesn't necessarily have to include the peer module
`
`24 and the agent module or the client module. It can
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`25 pick and choose which module it intends to use.
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`20
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`1 Q. Okay.
`
`2 Is there any way that the specification of
`
`3 the '510 patent specifically talks about that, or is
`
`4 that just something a person of ordinary skill in
`
`5 the art would understand in your view?
`
`6 A. That's something that a POSITA would
`
`7 understand.
`
`8 Q. In terms of the explicit disclosure of the
`
`9 '510 patent specification, is there any example of
`
`10 how an agent 122 would be embodied other than
`
`11 communication device 200?
`
`12 A. Well, 200 is listed in Column 5 as being an
`
`13 exemplary device, exemplary embodiment of the
`
`14 invention.
`
`15 Q. I understand. My question is a -- I don't
`
`16 want to interrupt you. Go ahead.
`
`17 A. Sorry, I'm not done with the answer.
`
`18 It should be noted that communication
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`19 device may serve as a client, agent, or peer. So
`
`20 that would inform a POSITA that one, two, or three
`
`21 functions could be included in the communication
`
`22 device. I'm done.
`
`23 Q. Okay.
`
`24 So if I understand you correctly, the
`
`25 agent 122 would need to have the agent module, but
`
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`21
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`1 would not necessarily need to have the client module
`
`2 or the peer module?
`
`3 A. Yes.
`
`4 Q. Looking at the disclosure that the
`
`5 agent 122 would not necessarily need to have the
`
`6 client or peer modules, is there any place where the
`
`7 '510 patent offers any other exemplary embodiment of
`
`8 an agent 122 other than the communication device
`
`9 200?
`
`10 MR. DUNHAM: Objection. Form.
`
`11 A. Well, Column 5 talks about 200 -- Column 5,
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`12 line 60 talks about the general nature of the
`
`13 communication 200. It doesn't specifically say that
`
`14 you must have 200 in order to implement this -- this
`
`15 invention. Column 5, line 60, to Column 7, line 5,
`
`16 describes the general nature of a communication
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`17 device.
`
`18 I'm done.
`
`19 BY MR. RADER:
`
`20 Q. Okay.
`
`21 So just want to go back to the language you
`
`22 used in paragraph 61 of your declaration when you're
`
`23 referring to the communication device being
`
`24 configured and operated as the client, agent, or
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`25 peer.
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`22
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`1 Do you recall that?
`
`2 A. Yes.
`
`3 Q. And I think you testified that
`
`4 communication device 200 configured to operate as an
`
`5 agent would be an example of the first client device
`
`6 of the claims of the '510 and '319 patents; is that
`
`7 right?
`
`8 A. What I said was agent 122 doesn't
`
`9 necessarily have to have all three functionalities.
`
`10 Q. But communication device 200 configured to
`
`11 operate as an agent, whether or not it includes the
`
`12 client module and the peer module, would be an
`
`13 example of an embodiment of the first client device
`
`14 of the claims; is that true?
`
`15 A. Yes.
`
`16 Q. And I understand you're saying that the
`
`17 specification does not limit the first client device
`
`18 of the claims only to that, so I'll just preface my
`
`19 question with that. I'm not trying to suggest
`
`20 otherwise.
`
`21 But are there any specific disclosures in
`
`22 the specification of other embodiments that would
`
`23 also correspond to first -- the first client device
`
`24 of the claims?
`
`25 A. Other than communication device 200?
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`23
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`1 Q. Correct.
`
`2 A. Well, in paragraph 7, lines 53 to 61,
`
`3 describe alternate embodiments of a communication
`
`4 device. I'm done.
`
`5 Q. So in the paragraph starting at Column 7,
`
`6 line 53, do I understand correctly that it's saying
`
`7 the functionality of communication device 200 can be
`
`8 implemented in various different ways such as
`
`9 hardware, logic circuits, and integrated circuit
`
`10 FPJ, et cetera?
`
`11 A. Yes. That's correct.
`
`12 Q. So other than those variations in the way
`
`13 communication device 200 itself can be implemented,
`
`14 are there any other examples, other than the
`
`15 specification, that would correspond to the first
`
`16 client device of the claims?
`
`17 A. I don't understand your question.
`
`18 Q. So what I'm asking is: other than the
`
`19 communication device 200, which I understand from
`
`20 the bottom of Column 7 can have its functionality
`
`21 implemented in a variety of different ways within
`
`22 the communication device 200 -- other than that
`
`23 communication device 200, are there any other
`
`24 specific examples in the specification of
`
`25 embodiments corresponding to the first client device
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`24
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`1 of the claims?
`
`2 A. The specification describes -- goes on to
`
`3 describe the functionality required by the software
`
`4 and anything -- so you would understand that
`
`5 anything that is capable of implementing that
`
`6 software in this case on a consumer computer, a
`
`7 consumer device would be capable of performing that
`
`8 functionality.
`
`9 Q. Right.
`
`10 And I'm not at all trying to foreclose
`
`11 other things that a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`12 art might understand, and I'm just asking whether
`
`13 there are any -- besides communication device 200,
`
`14 however implemented, are there any specific examples
`
`15 in the specification for first client device of the
`
`16 claims?
`
`17 A. Well, the patent doesn't restrict the --
`
`18 the patent describes the functionality of agent 122
`
`19 as a consumer-level device. Other than that,
`
`20 there's a description of the functionality that that
`
`21 device must have, and a POSITA would understand that
`
`22 anything that can implement that functionality on a
`
`23 consumer-level device would be -- would be in
`
`24 compliance with the specification and the claims.
`
`25 Q. Where does the specification refer to
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`25
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`1 agent 122 as a consumer device?
`
`2 A. Column 2, line 47 to 50, in network 50
`
`3 files are stored on computers of consumers referred
`
`4 to as client devices.
`
`5 (Reporter asks for clarification.)
`
`6 A. Column 2, lines 47 to 50, "in network, 50
`
`7 files are stored on computers of consumers, referred
`
`8 to herein as client devices 60."
`
`9 BY MR. RADER:
`
`10 Q. Is there anywhere else that the patent, in
`
`11 your view, describes agent 122 as a consumer device?
`
`12 A. I discuss this in paragraph 69 of my
`
`13 report, and 70 and 71 and 72, all the way through to
`
`14 84.
`
`15 Q. I'm familiar with those paragraphs.
`
`16 Let me start with asking a simple question:
`
`17 Does the word "consumer" appear anywhere else other
`
`18 than Column 2, line 48, of the '510 patent?
`
`19 A. Line 49; line 50; line 52; Column 1,
`
`20 line 58; Column 1, line 62. That's it.
`
`21 Q. Of the ones you just mentioned, the only
`
`22 place where the '510 patent specification describes
`
`23 a device or a computer as being of a consumer is in
`
`24 Column 2, line 49; isn't that right?
`
`25 A. No.
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`26
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`1 Q. Let me repeat my question. And I'm not
`
`2 asking what a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`3 would understand, I'm asking about the disclosure of
`
`4 the '510 patent specification.
`
`5 Other than Column 2, line 49, is there
`
`6 anywhere, in your opinion, that the patent
`
`7 specification describes agent 122 or communication
`
`8 device 200 as a consumer computer?
`
`9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. Where?
`
`11 A. Starting line 49, "Each consumer can serve
`
`12 updated to other consumers via the Internet, thus
`
`13 taking the load off of serving off the distributors,
`
`14 and saving them the associated costs, and providing
`
`15 the consumer multiple points from which to download
`
`16 the data, referred to as peers 70, 72, 74, 76, and
`
`17 78, thus increasing the speed of the download."
`
`18 And then in Column 1, "The need for a new
`
`19 method of data transfer that is fast for the
`
`20 consumer, cheap for the content distributor, and
`
`21 does not require infrastructure investment for ISPs
`
`22 has become a major issue, which is yet unsolved."
`
`23 So we're talking about the allocation of
`
`24 consumer devices to perform the functionality of
`
`25 device 102.
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`27
`
`1 Q. None of those -- none of the texts you just
`
`2 read me refers to communication device 200 or
`
`3 agent 122 or even client device 102, does it?
`
`4 A. Yes, it does.
`
`5 Q. Really? Where do you see the number 200 in
`
`6 connection with the consumer computer? What column
`
`7 and line number?
`
`8 A. That's what it's talking about.
`
`9 Q. Where do you see the number 122 from
`
`10 agent 122 in connection with a consumer computer?
`
`11 A. The sections I just read. It's talking
`
`12 about that particular device.
`
`13 Q. Even though it doesn't say so?
`
`14 A. Well, is your question: Is 122 typed into
`
`15 those to sentences?
`
`16 Q. That's my question.
`
`17 A. No.
`
`18 Q. What about consumer -- sorry.
`
`19 What about communication device 200, is
`
`20 that typed in there?
`
`21 A. No. You can read it for yourself.
`
`22 Q. What about client device 102, is that typed
`
`23 in there?
`
`24 A. No. But it's clearly what it's discussing.
`
`25 Q. Let's take a look at Figure 1 of the '510
`
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`28
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`1 patent, please.
`
`2 A. Yes.
`
`3 Q. Figure 1 shows the use of proxy servers on
`
`4 network, right?
`
`5 A. Yes.
`
`6 Q