Page 1
`
` Volume: I
` Pages: 1 To 108
` Exhibits: See Index
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE BEFORE
` THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` DOCKET NO. 337722-000230
`
` )
`APPLE INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` )
`BILLJCO LLC, )
`Patent Owner IPR2022-00131 )
` Respondent. )
` )
` )
`
` DEPOSITION OF THOMAS F. LAPORTA,
` PH.D., a witness called on behalf of the
` Respondent, taken pursuant to the rules of the
` Patent and Appeals Board, before Susan E.
` DiFraia, Certified Shorthand Reporter and
` Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of
` Massachusetts, at the offices of DLA Piper,
` LLP, 33 Arch Street, Boston, Massachusetts, on
` Friday, July 29, 2022, commencing at 8:30 a.m.
`
`BILLJCO
`EX2009 Page 1 of 129
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`
`
` Volume: I
` Pages: 1 To 108
` Exhibits: See Index
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE BEFORE
` THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` DOCKET NO. 337722-000230
`
` )
`APPLE INC., )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` )
`BILLJCO LLC, )
`Patent Owner IPR2022-00131 )
` Respondent. )
` )
` )
`
` DEPOSITION OF THOMAS F. LAPORTA,
` PH.D., a witness called on behalf of the
` Respondent, taken pursuant to the rules of the
` Patent and Appeals Board, before Susan E.
` DiFraia, Certified Shorthand Reporter and
` Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of
` Massachusetts, at the offices of DLA Piper,
` LLP, 33 Arch Street, Boston, Massachusetts, on
` Friday, July 29, 2022, commencing at 8:30 a.m.
`
`BILLJCO
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`Page 2
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` APPEARANCES:
`
` DLA PIPER LLP
` 33 Arch Street, 26th Floor
` Boston, MA 02110-1447
` BY: Larissa Bifano, Esquire
` E-Mail: Larissa.bifano@dlapiper.com
` Attorney for the Petitioner
`
` SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR
` 161 North Clark Street
` Suite 4200
` Chicago, IL 60601
` BY: Joseph M. Kuo, Esquire
` Attorney for the Respondent.
`
` * * * * *
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` E X A M I N A T I O N S
`
` Witness Page
`
` THOMAS F. LAPORTA, PH.D.
` DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KUO 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
` Exhibit Description Page
` 1 Declaration w/ CV 7
` Attached
` 2 Apple Exhibit 1001/US 37
` Patent 8639267
` 3 Apple Exhibit 1004/US 71
` Patent Application
` Publication No.
` 20050096044 (Haberman)
` 4 APP_BLJCO_00014621-14626 76
` 5 Apple Exhibit 1005 US 99
` patent Application
` Publication No.
` 20020159401 (Boger)
` 6 Apple Exhibit 1006 100
` US Patent Application
` Publication No.
` 20020132614 (Vanluijt)
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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`Page 4
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're now on the
` record. Apple, Inc., versus BillJCo Patent
` Owner 2022-00131, Petition for Inter-parties
` Review of US Patent 8639267; challenging
` claims, 1, 5, 13, 20, 21, 29, 30, 34, 42 and 49
` Under 35 USC312 and 37CFR 42.104.
` The court reporter today is Susan
` DiFraia. My name is Chris Coughlin. I'm the
` videographer for Magna Legal Services.
` Will counsel please identify themselves
` and who they represent.
` MR. KUO: Joe Kuo on behalf of Patent
` Owner BillJCo.
` MR. LANDRY: Brian Landry on behalf of
` Patent Owner BillJCo.
` MS. MANNING: Ellen Manning.
` MS. BIFANO: Larissa Bifano on behalf of
` Petitioner Apple, Inc., and with me is
` Joseph Wolfe.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court
` reporter please swear in the witness.
` THE COURT REPORTER: Sir, would you
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` please raise your right hand.
` THOMAS F. LAPORTA, PH.D.
` a witness called for examination by counsel for
` the Respondent, having been satisfactorily
` identified by the production of his driver's
` license and being first duly sworn by the
` Notary Public, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
` BY MR. KUO:
`Q. Good morning, Dr. LaPorta. My name is Joe Kuo.
` We met a few minutes ago. I'm counsel for the
` Patent Owner in this case BillJCo, and we're
` here today regarding your declaration that was
` submitted in the IPR related to US Patent
` 8639267. I'll just refer to that as the 267
` Patent, is that okay?
`A. Yes, that is.
`Q. Before we get into it, I'm just going to ask a
` couple of preliminary questions to set the
` stage.
` You've been deposed before, is that
` correct?
`A. Yes, I have.
`
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`Page 6
`Q. So as you know, I'm just going to ask you some
` questions and unless you're instructed not to
` answer, I'd like a response to the best of your
` ability. If you don't understand a question
` I've asked just ask me to clarify and if you
` could explain what you don't understand about
` the question, I'll do my best to clear it up.
` We will take breaks as we go along. I try to
` take one every hour or so but if you need one
` before that just let me know, it's not a big
` deal.
` Gee, usually I have a lot more to say
` because it's remote, but since it's actually in
` person it takes a way a lot of the preliminary
` stuff. So let's get going.
` So Dr. LaPorta, let me hand to you
` what's been marked as Exhibit 1. And this
` document -- I'm sorry. This document has been
` marked as LaPorta 1, and it is in the record
` already as Exhibit 1002 and is a document
` titled Declaration of Thomas LaPorta Ph.D.,
` regarding listed claims of the US -- of the 267
` patent.
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`Page 7
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` (Document marked as LaPorta
` Exhibit 1 for identification)
`Q. Is this a document you prepared?
`A. It looks like it, yes.
`Q. Your CV is attached at the end of the document,
` towards the end of the document, and in your CV
` you set forth your education. Is there
` anything you need to add to that or is that
` fully -- does that fully describe your
` educational background?
`A. That describes it.
`Q. And then your work experience is all set forth
` in your CV. Do you have anything to add there?
`A. No. That looks like everything.
`Q. And I didn't notice this before so I apologize
` for it, but there is highlighting in the CV
` that -- that's stuff that I highlighted and
` it -- actually only in this copy just so the
` record reflects that the original isn't in that
` highlighting. If you want I can substitute it
` but --
` MS. BIFANO: It's okay.
`Q. Okay. So as far as work experience, do you
` have anything to add to what's in the CV?
`
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`A. There may be some papers and things like that,
` that I've done since I've submitted this but
` not in terms of positions.
`Q. How about cases that you've worked on, are
` there any additional cases since you submitted
` this CV?
`A. No, this is complete.
`Q. All right. If you could turn to Page 7 of your
` declaration?
`A. Okay.
`Q. In Paragraph 22 you state that you have no
` financial interest in the petitioner which is
` Apple, so you've worked on behalf of Apple
` previously, correct?
`A. Yes, I have.
`Q. How many times?
`A. I'd have to look at the --
`Q. Sure, go ahead.
`A. The CV. I think you had them highlighted and I
` think it's three, so I'll check it.
`Q. My mistake. Came in handy.
`A. So to my knowledge it's those three. I don't
` see any others.
`Q. Okay. So those three cases and then you're
`
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` working on multiple IPRs on behalf of Apple
` with respect to BillJCo's patent, correct?
`A. Yes.
`Q. How many of the IPRs are you working on?
`A. I'm working on three.
`Q. All right. All right. Did you have any
` involvement -- I'm sorry. Strike that. Are
` you aware that Apple and BillJCo are currently
` involved in district court litigation?
`A. I read that in, I believe, the Patent Board's
` discussion, so I'm aware of it.
`Q. Were you aware of it prior to reading the
` Patent Board discussion?
`A. I may have been. I don't remember if I was
` told it or not but I assume they were.
`Q. Why did you assume that?
`A. Because usually when these things happen
` there's something else going on.
`Q. So I take it from your answer that you were not
` involved at all in the district court
` litigation?
`A. No.
`Q. How far back does your work for Apple go?
`A. I don't understand the question.
`
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`Q. How far back in time, like, when was the first
` case you worked on for Apple?
`A. Excuse me. I'll look here.
`Q. Sure.
`A. So according to my CV it was 2014. I may have
` in one of the cases where I was just a
` consultant that wasn't testifying, I don't
` remember, but I have a vague recollection one
` of them may have involved Apple also but I
` don't remember when that was. So I'll say
` 2014.
`Q. Okay.
`A. That's the best I can remember.
`Q. Other than the one consulting job that you
` can't remember the exact date of and the list
` of litigation have you done any other work for
` Apple?
`A. No.
`Q. Who are you compensated by? Are you
` compensated by Apple directly or through the
` attorneys?
`A. So I submit my invoices to the attorneys.
`Q. And how are you paid? And what I mean by that
` because that's a little vague, are you paid in
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` dollars or are you paid -- is there any part of
` payment that might be in the form of a stock
` option?
`A. It's just a check for cash.
`Q. Okay. Approximately how much have you made
` both in consulting as well as expert --
` testifying as an expert witness for -- on
` behalf of Apple?
`A. I don't know the time frame you're talking
` about.
`Q. In total?
`A. I have no idea.
`Q. Can you give me an estimate?
`A. Maybe a thousand maybe. It's pure speculation.
` I don't -- I have no real memory of these
` cases. The closest one was, I guess, 2019 when
` some of these were eight years old, five years
` old. I don't remember.
`Q. With respect to your declaration in this case
` will you give me an estimate how much time you
` spent preparing -- preparing the declaration
` and that question includes reading the Patent,
` reading the prior art, etc?
`A. So I don't remember exactly but I would
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` estimate in the 50-to-75-hour range.
`Q. 50 to 75 hours. And you charge how much per
` hour?
`A. I charge 550 an hour.
`Q. Do you own stock in Apple?
`A. To my knowledge, I don't own stock in Apple.
`Q. You own mutual funds that -- you own mutual
` funds, correct?
`A. I have an investment company that buys me
` whatever, and I don't look at it very closely
` so I don't know.
`Q. Okay. But you -- you don't have any control
` over Apple?
`A. No, I have no control over Apple.
`Q. Nor do I. It would be nice though.
` Can you tell me -- let's say over the
` last five years approximately what percentage
` of your work -- I'm sorry. What percentage of
` your commission is from expert witness either
` consulting or testifying as compared to your
` work as a professor?
`A. Can you just repeat that question.
`Q. Sure. So you -- your regular job is as a
` professor, correct?
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`A. That is correct, a school director and a
` professor.
`Q. So what I want to get an idea of is the
` percentage of your commission over the last
` five years from consulting and expert witness
` work as compared to your work for Penn State.
`A. I would say probably ten percent or less.
`Q. Is for expert witness work?
`A. Yes.
`Q. Okay. Let's go to Paragraph 33 of your
` declaration?
`A. I'm there.
`Q. Okay. So paragraph 33 you set forth a summary
` of the 267 Patent, correct?
`A. That is correct.
`Q. And you say it's location based services for
` mobile data processing systems, right?
`A. That's correct.
`Q. Prior to your work in this case, what
` experience did you have in this particular
` field?
`A. So a large body of my research work both at
` Bell Labs and at Penn State has been on mobile
` systems including mobile computing.
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`Q. And what is the timeframe for the work that you
` just described at Bell Labs?
`A. Probably 1994 through current.
`Q. Through current. You're still working for Bell
` Labs?
`A. No. No. My work at Penn State has continued
` in this area.
`Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
` Can you describe in more detail the type
` of work you had at Bell Labs with respect to
` the mobile computing systems?
`A. Sure. Let me look at my resume so I don't --
`Q. Sure.
`A. Okay. So I started looking at broadband
` wireless mobile communications in the 1994
` timeframe.
`Q. What do you mean by "broadband"?
`A. So this was using the standards based on what
` they call broadband ISDN. So ATM-based
` systems.
`Q. Do the acronyms a little slower.
`A. Okay. Broadband ISDN.
`Q. ISDN?
`A. Yes. So those were the standards and they were
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` based on something called ATM, which was
` asycronus transfer mode. And we were looking
` at how to do wireless multimedia for Bell Labs
` in around the 1994 timeframe.
`Q. So by multimedia, you mean video streaming?
`A. Could be video, audio, images, conferencing,
` things like that, yes.
`Q. So that's what you started -- what else -- how
` had that work developed?
`A. Okay. So that work continued a long time and
` became part of several products that Lucent
` Technologies sold, and that work then expanded
` to do more than what we call cold processing to
` do things like location management,
` authentication, interworking between different
` types of systems. So that was one vein of work
` I did.
`Q. Was any of this work that you had for Bell
` Labs, had any of this ended up being patented?
`A. Quite a bit of it ended up being patented.
`Q. And I think in your CV you have a list of your
` patents. Do you know which ones relate to what
` you just described?
`A. I can try to highlight it from the titles.
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` (Pause)
`A. So I would say -- I don't know how you want me
` to reference them on my CV. I can just give
` you the patent numbers.
`Q. You have numbers with the patents.
`A. So I would say 330, 337.
`Q. Okay.
`A. 338, 339, 341, 342. And these were based on
` the systems patented in 320, 321, 322 and 323.
`Q. And just so the record is clear you're looking
` at Page 37 of your CV; is that correct?
`A. Yes, and one more. 326.
`Q. Okay. Can you explain to me, you know, why you
` consider those to be the same field of work as
` the 267 patent?
`A. They dealt with how to control and manage the
` mobility and communicated with wireless devices
` that had sort of advanced services, if you
` will, not just telephone services.
`Q. What do you mean by "advanced services"?
`A. Again, not just voice services, data services.
` I also -- that was one vein of work I did. I
` also did more work related to what I would
` consider the field.
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`Q. What's the other work?
`A. So we had work on mobile processing, so mobile
` data processing. And that work I would break
` it into at least three sections; we worked on
` mobility management or packet data networks,
` wireless packet data networks; we worked on
` systems that had what we call "thin clients,"
` so these were mobile systems that relied on
` servers in the network to help execute services
` and applications. And then we worked on
` advanced messaging, mobile messaging services.
`Q. What is "mobility management"?
`A. So that's tracking the location of mobile
` devices and users and then locating them more
` precisely when communication was supposed to
` take place and authenticating.
`Q. The last part of your sentence, you said
` something about accessing when location is
` supposed to take place. I'm sorry?
`A. Yes. So there's tracking the location of a
` device and/or a user to a certain granularity,
` and then when someone wants to communicate with
` that person or device finding them precisely to
` deliver the communications, so there's an
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` updated part and a communications part.
`Q. Okay. So it might be tracking, it says I'm in
` Boston, but then when you want to actually
` communicate you have to get the entire, is that
` what you're saying?
`A. Yes. So typically you know where someone is in
` a certain granularity and then if there's a
` packet to send them, a message to send them,
` you have to find an exact location in a
` cellular telephone system.
`Q. And that cellular system is it directed
` specifically to that user?
`A. So these were general telephone systems and
` then we also had worked on -- on wireless data
` systems which worked slightly differently than
` the telephone systems.
`Q. But in the telephone system you're sending them
` a data packet specifically to a particular
` user, correct?
`A. We worked on both broadcast, multicast and
` communications directed to a single user.
`Q. All right. So broadcast and multicast as
` opposed to communication of a single -- to a
` single user. Can you explain that?
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`A. Yes, so a broadcast would be delivering a
` message to everyone in some scoped area so it
` could be covered by one radio, it could be
` somebody in -- everybody in a town but it's
` typically scoped by a geographic area.
` Multicast is typically to a set of users. They
` don't necessarily have to be in the same
` geographic area, but it's a set of users, it's
` not a single user. And then the point-to-point
` is when you're talking to one user.
`Q. Okay. So the multicast you said they don't
` have to be in the same geographic area so you
` still need to know this group of people that
` you're sending to, right?
`A. So they can be in the same geographic area and
` you can multicast, for example, to a set of
` radios in which case you don't have to know the
` specific users attached to those radios but you
` can also have a list of people that you are
` sending to and they would have a specific
` address for the group.
`Q. Okay. And then the broadcast, the way you
` described the broadcast, would be just sending
` out to whoever happens to be within range of
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` that broadcast?
`A. Yes, that's how broadcast would work.
`Q. Okay. Would and example of a broadcast be
` something -- and I don't know if this was in
` place back in the timeframe you're talking
` about, but something like an Amber Alert that
` just says anyone in this area has something to
` look out for?
` MS. BIFANO: Objection. Form.
`A. I'm not exactly sure how Amber Alerts work if
` it works by who subscribes to which carriers or
` something like that, but the idea is within a
` geographic area everyone would get it as long
` as they were attached -- you know, as long as
` they were within range of communicating.
`Q. Yes. I was wasn't limiting it to Amber Alert,
` I mean, the kind of alert like severe
` thunderstorm alert just gets sent out to
` anybody whose listening.
` MS. BIFANO: Objection. Form.
`A. So it's sent out to everybody whose listening.
` Some of these services do limit who gets them,
` but many wireless networks use broadcast for
` many things to communicate with everybody
`
`BILLJCO
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` within range for their networks to operate.
`Q. Okay. You also mentioned a "thin client," what
` is that?
`A. So when we were working in this area which was
` late 1990s, cell phones were not what they are
` today. They were really telephones, not
` computers like they are today. And so they
` didn't have much processing capability or
` memory. They did have it, but they didn't have
` much of it. So we would offload some
` processing in the network to make the
` processing on the mobile devices simpler.
`Q. Okay. So because the phones at that time
` didn't have the computing power that they do
` today, the data would be sent to some server,
` processed, and then sent back, is that what
` you're saying?
`A. That was --
` MS. BIFANO: Objection. Form.
`A. That was one way to do it, yes.
`Q. What's another way?
`A. There's different ways that the data could be
` sent back and forth. So it could just go to
` the server and then sent to the client. The
`
`BILLJCO
`EX2009 Page 21 of 129
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` client could send something into the server and
` ask the server to do something on its behalf.
` So it's not always just data being sent to the
` client. Things could be sent from the client
` to the network. But the basic idea is the
` server and the network would do the more
` computationally expensive work.
`Q. And when you say "client," who would be the
` client?
`A. The client would be the mobile device.
`Q. So the declaration that's in front of you,
` it's -- I think it's dated November 22 of last
` year. Let's look at page 82.
`A. I'm there.
`Q. Does that sound about right when you signed off
` on this declaration?
`A. Yes. I dated it the day I signed it. So
` that's accurate.
`Q. When were you retained in this case? Let
` me strike that.
` When were you first contacted about this
` case?
`A. I don't remember exactly when I was contacted.
`Q. Do you know approximately?
`
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`BILLJCO
`EX2009 Page 22 of 129
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`A. Three months before perhaps, something like
` that. Again, it's speculation. I don't
` remember the first contact. I don't actually
` remember when we first really started working
` on it but it was obviously at least three
` months, four months before this date.
`Q. And at this time were you retained for multiple
` IPRs or just did that evolve?
`A. I don't remember the process of that either.
` I -- I believe I started working on the three
` IPRs relatively soon, if not immediately.
`Q. Okay. And are you aware of how many IPRs have
` been filed by Apple against BillJCo?
`A. No.
`Q. Are you aware that it's more than the three
` that you've been retained for?
`A. I did known there were others, but I don't know
` how many.
`Q. Do you know why you were not retained for the
` others?
`A. No.
`Q. Have you looked at any other BillJCo patents
` other than the three IPRs for which you've been
` retained?
`
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`EX2009 Page 23 of 129
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`A. I looked at everything in materials considered
` so to the extent that there were continuations
` and things like that, I did look at them.
`Q. So even though you don't remember exactly when
` you were first contacted, can you take me
` through the information gathering process from
` your perspective?
` Do you understand my question?
`A. Not really.
`Q. Okay. So all I'm trying to ask you is like,
` you were contacted about working on this case,
` and I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, I
` assume you said, okay, that sounds interesting,
` send me some information so I can look through
` it. Does that sound probable?
` MS. BIFANO: So I'm going to just object
` and note that, you know, I'm assuming
` you're not trying to get to privileged
` information, but just to caution the
` witness to not disclose any privileged
` communications you had with your lawyer.
` You can answer the question but just
` don't disclose that type of information.
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll do my best.
`
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`EX2009 Page 24 of 129
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`A. So I believe when I was contacted, shortly
` thereafter before I agreed to do anything, I
` was given the patents.
`Q. Okay. Anything else?
`A. I don't remember what else I was given at that
` time.
`Q. Okay. So first thing you -- to the best of
` your recollection, the first thing you were
` given were the patents and you mentioned there
` were three of them, two of them that we'll be
` talking about today and the 267 for right now,
` and you said you went, looked through the
` patents, right?
`A. That's correct, I received them and I looked
` through them at some level of detail.
`Q. So that's where I'm going with this. As you
` know, these patents are pretty lengthy and you
` said you looked at them through some level of
` detail. Can you give me an idea of what that
` is.
`A. So can you just clarify what your -- what you
` mean by "when I looked at them."
`Q. You said when you were first contacted that the
` first thing you were provided or requested, I'm
`
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`Page 26
` not really sure, was copies of the Patent and
` then -- that you've looked at them at some
` level of detail. So I'm trying to get at what
` level of detail that first review was?
`A. So for the first review I read the background,
` summary of invention, I looked over the
` figures, the claims, and really just a scan of
` the details. I'm -- I'm just -- this is my
` general process when people contact me. I'm
` just looking at the field of the invention,
` what's covered generally in the Patent and what
` the claims cover.
`Q. Would it be fair to say you were just trying to
` get an idea whether this technology was
` something within your wheelhouse?
`A. Yes, whether I was comfortable working in that
` field, yes.
`Q. Okay. So after doing that initial review, and
` I think you said that was before you agreed to
` take on this case, correct?
`A. To the best of my recollection I looked at the
` Patent before I agreed to take on the case,
` yes.
`Q. So then at some point you agreed to take on the
`
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` case and you considered additional information
` as listed in your materials considered,
` correct?
`A. That is correct.
`Q. Were the materials that you considered in
` preparing this declaration, were they materials
` that you requested or were they just materials
` that counsel provided to you?
`A. Let me take a look.
` So these materials here are two of the
` ones I relied on were provided to me by
` counsel. I may have requested some of them as
` I was working but they were all provided by
` counsel.
`Q. Do you know which ones you -- which if any of
` them you requested to be provided?
`A. I just -- I requested ones as I was working, if
` I needed them. So if I was reading a document
` that to something and I didn't have that
` document yet I would ask them, you know, can
` you send me this reference or -- I don't
` remember exactly which ones. Again that's
` my -- I don't remember specifically what I
` asked for in this case. But that's typically
`
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` how I work. I start to work and then I say can
` I have the following materials that I'll need
` and they provided them.
`Q. So I think and just confirm for me that in
` answering that last line of questions you're
` referring to page 6 and 7 of your declaration
` under "materials considered"?
`A. Yes.
`Q. So in Paragraph 19 which is on page 6, you
` say -- you say that you reviewed the 267 Patent
` and you reviewed the prosecution history and
` numerous prior art and technical references
` from the time of the alleged invention, and
` then you list a number of exhibits. And those
` exhibits are the 267 Patent itself, the
` prosecution history, the Haberman reference,
` the Boger reference and the van Vanluijt -- I
` probably pronounced that incorrectly.
` So my first question is:
` Do you know how to pronounce that
` Exhibit 106, the inventor of that?
`A. I pronounce it Vanluijt.
`Q. Vanluijt. All right. We'll go with that. So
` other than these --
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`BILLJCO
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` MR. KUO: I'll spell it. It's Vanluijt.
` Which should explain why I couldn't
` pronounce it.
` THE COURT REPORTER: That's okay. I was
` just clearing my throat. I can get
` those later.
`Q. So in the paragraph you talk about reviewing
` technical references from the time of the
` alleged invention, but you don't list anything
` here so what I'm -- I want to know is what
` other technical references had you reviewed?
`A. So I did look at other documents, but I don't
` remember which ones, and if they're not listed
` here, then I did not find them, you know, to be
` the best references or relevant so then I
` didn't rely on them. So I did look at other
` materials. I just didn't use them.
`Q. Okay. The prior art references that you relied
` on in your declaration, Haberman, Boger and
` Vanluijt, are those prior references that you
` located or are they ones provided to you by
` counsel?
`A. So those were provided to me by counsel.
`Q. Did you do any prior art searching as part of
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` your work on this case?
`A. On this declaration I looked around at some
` things but it was not a -- I don't know if I'd
` call it a search, but I did look at some --
` some documents on my own.
`Q. What kind of documents?
`A. This was a while ago, papers that were
` published around that time, things like that
` but nothing -- nothing that's jumping out at me
` as sticking in my mind.
`Q. And by "that time," you mean back in the mid
` 2000s?
`A. In the mid 2000s or early years.
`Q. But whatever it is that you reviewed and looked
` at in -- in preparing your declaration you
` didn't think they were necessary to include in
` your declaration?
`A. That's correct, I didn't think I needed them in
` this declaration.
`Q. All right. So after you received the materials
` that are listed in your declaration from
` counsel, and you said -- you said it's
` typically your practice that as you review
` things you might ask for more documents.
`
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`1
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