No. 22-115356
`
`DEPOSITION OF
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`DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
`
`VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`OCTOBER 5, 2022
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`Reported by:
`COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`CSR 7882
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
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`EX. 1019
`APPLEINC./ Page 1 of 74
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`ORIGINAL
`
`IPR2022-00120
`
`Patent No. 9,997,962
`
`) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
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`APPLE INC.,
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`Petitioner,
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`vs.
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`SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,
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`Patent Owner.
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 1 of 74
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`
`
`DEPOSITION OF
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`DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
`
`VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`OCTOBER 5, 2022
`
`Reported by:
`COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`CSR 7882
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLEINC./ Page 1 of 74
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`ORIGINAL
`
`IPR2022-00120
`
`Patent No. 9,997,962
`
`) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
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`SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,
`
`Patent Owner.
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 1 of 74
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-00120
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,997,962
`·7· ·SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`15· · · · · · · · ·DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · ·OCTOBER 5, 2022
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`· · ·CSR 7882
`25· ·No. 22-115356
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 2 of 74
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-00120
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,997,962
`·7· ·SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS,
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`15· · · · · · ·PH.D., a witness herein, taken on
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`16· · · · · · ·behalf of the petitioner via Zoom
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`17· · · · · · ·videoconference at 6:59 a.m. Pacific
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`18· · · · · · ·Daylight Time on Wednesday, October 5,
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`19· · · · · · ·2022, before Colleen M. Peterman,
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`20· · · · · · ·CSR 7882.
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 3 of 74
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES (All Participants Appeared Remotely):
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`·2
`· · ·For Petitioner:
`·3
`· · · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`·4· · · · · · BY SCOTT T. JARRATT
`· · · · · · · · ·CALMANN CLEMENTS
`·5· · · · · · 2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700
`· · · · · · · Dallas, Texas 75219
`·6· · · · · · 972.739.8663
`· · · · · · · 214.200.0853 Fax
`·7· · · · · · scott.jarratt@haynesboone.com
`· · · · · · · calmann.clements@haynesboone.com
`·8
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`·9· ·For Patent Owner:
`
`10· · · · · · BC LAW GROUP, P.C.
`· · · · · · · BY JOHN PETRSORIC
`11· · · · · · 200 Madison Avenue, 24th Floor
`· · · · · · · New York, New York 10016
`12· · · · · · 212.951.0100
`· · · · · · · 646.293.2201 Fax
`13· · · · · · jpetrsoric@bc-lawgroup.com
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`25
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 4 of 74
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS:· DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. JARRATT· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·8· ·PETITIONER'S· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·(No Exhibits Marked)
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`12
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 5 of 74
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·OCTOBER 5, 2022
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.,
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`·5· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
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`·6· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
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`·7· · · · · · · · · AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`10
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`11· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Good morning, Dr. Ricketts.
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`13· · · · ·A.· Good morning.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· Can you please state your full name for the
`
`15· ·record.
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`16· · · · ·A.· Sure.· David Shawn, S-h-a-w-n, Ricketts,
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`17· ·R-i-c-k-e-t-t-s.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· And you've been deposed before; correct?
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`19· · · · ·A.· Yes, I have.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· About how many times?
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`21· · · · ·A.· Somewhere between 10 and 15 times, I think.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· So you generally know how depositions work; is
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`23· ·that fair?
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`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I would say that's fair.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· And do you understand that you must provide
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 6 of 74
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`·1· ·verbal answers to my questions so that the court
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`·2· ·reporter can make an accurate transcript?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes, I understand.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· And so because we're forming a record, it's
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`·5· ·important that we don't talk over each other.· So if you
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`·6· ·can let me finish a question, and I'll let you finish
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`·7· ·your answer.
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`·8· · · · · · ·Does that sound fair?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· That does.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· All right.· And you understand that your
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`11· ·counsel might object to a question, but you still must
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`12· ·provide an answer to that question unless instructed
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`13· ·otherwise; correct?
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`14· · · · ·A.· I understand, yes.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· If you're confused about a question I ask, I'd
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`16· ·appreciate it if you would let me know so I can perhaps
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`17· ·ask it in a different way.
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`18· · · · · · ·Can we agree on that?
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`19· · · · ·A.· I will ask if I have any questions.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· Are you connecting to the deposition today on
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`21· ·a personal computer?
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`22· · · · ·A.· A laptop.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· So aside from Zoom, are there any other
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`24· ·applications running on your personal computer today?
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`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I have Adobe running.· I also have File
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 7 of 74
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`
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`·1· ·Explorer, which has opened the files that you sent over.
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`·2· ·And then I also have a web browser with just the patents
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`·3· ·open on it to see some of the figures in a bigger form.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any messaging programs open?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· I do not, no.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any other electronic devices in
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`·7· ·the room with you?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· I have a cell phone that's in my pocket that's
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`·9· ·on silence, and it's on do not disturb.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· Are there any other people in the room with
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`11· ·you today?
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`12· · · · ·A.· There are not, no.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any handwritten notes with you
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`14· ·today?
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`15· · · · ·A.· I do not, no.· I do have printed copies of
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`16· ·patents, in addition to the electronic copies.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· Is there any reason you can't provide full and
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`18· ·accurate testimony today?
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`19· · · · ·A.· No, there's not.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· And you understand that the testimony you're
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`21· ·providing today will be used in inter partes review
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`22· ·proceeding IPR2022-00120; correct?
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`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Correct.· 00120.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· And do you understand that your testimony will
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`25· ·be publicly available if filed in this proceeding?
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 8 of 74
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`·1· · · · ·A.· I do understand.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Do you understand that IPR2022-00120 concerns
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`·3· ·U.S. patent 9,997,962?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· That is my understanding, yes.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· So if I say the '962 patent, will you
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`·6· ·understand that that's referring to U.S. patent
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`·7· ·9,997,962?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· Yes, I will.
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· So how many IPRs have you worked on?
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`10· · · · ·A.· I'd have to check my C.V., but somewhere
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`11· ·between eight to 10, I believe.
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Of those IPRs, how many were you working on
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`13· ·for the patent owner in this case?
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`14· · · · ·A.· That is -- I'm just thinking here.· I've been
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`15· ·working on at least two IPRs.· This one and another.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And just for some definitions for
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`17· ·today, if I use the acronym POSITA, will you understand
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`18· ·that to mean a person of ordinary skill in the art as of
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`19· ·June 27th, 2013, which is the earliest alleged priority
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`20· ·date of the '962 patent?
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`21· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I would understand that is the
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`22· ·procedure, yes.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· If I refer to this IPR, will you understand
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`24· ·that to mean the inter partes review proceeding
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`25· ·IPR2022-00120?
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 9 of 74
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Yes, I will.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· When did you begin working on this matter for
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`·3· ·Scramoge?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· I'd have to look back at my notes to find an
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`·5· ·exact date, but I've done regular technical consulting
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`·6· ·with them in this IPR.· My declaration would have began
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`·7· ·at least probably a month previously to this deposition.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· So who wrote your declaration?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· So the declaration is mine.· It was a
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`10· ·collaborative discussion, and then I would send in edits
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`11· ·and update it throughout the process, so that when I
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`12· ·signed it, it was my report.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· So you were provided with a first draft?
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`14· · · · ·A.· No.· I generally provided a draft of all the
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`15· ·technical pieces, and then the legal parts were added.
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`16· ·I reviewed it so that every part was my own, produced
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`17· ·edits, and then finally submitted the report.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· And who came up with the positions in your
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`19· ·declaration?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Well, I was --
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`21· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Form.
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`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I was specifically asked to
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`23· ·address specific issues, and so I responded to those
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`24· ·specific issues in my report.
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`25
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 10 of 74
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`·1· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Approximately how long did you spend preparing
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`·3· ·your declaration?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· For the documents, typically, declaration, I
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`·5· ·spend between 15 and 25 hours.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· What did you do to review in preparation for
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`·7· ·your deposition today?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· I reviewed the patents, the petitions, and my
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`·9· ·report.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· Did you meet with anybody to prepare?
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`11· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I had two calls with counsel, and that
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`12· ·would be -- sorry.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· Go ahead.
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`14· · · · ·A.· I just wanted to clarify that would be John
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`15· ·Petrsoric.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· Are there any errors in your declaration that
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`17· ·you're aware of?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Not that I'm aware of, no.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· And in drafting your declaration, did you
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`20· ·choose your words carefully?
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`21· · · · ·A.· For the most part, I did.· If in today's
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`22· ·proceeding I notice a word isn't as precise or accurate
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`23· ·as I intended, I'll correct it at the time.· But for the
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`24· ·most part, yes.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· Do you still stand by all the opinions you
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 11 of 74
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`·1· ·provided in your declaration?
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`·2· · · · ·A.· Yes, I do.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Let's turn to your declaration,
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`·4· ·which is previously marked Exhibit 101 -- I'm sorry --
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`·5· ·excuse me -- Exhibit 2016.
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`·6· · · · ·A.· Okay.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· And this is the declaration you submitted in
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`·8· ·this IPR?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Correct, yes.· And for clarity, I'll be
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`10· ·referring to the documents that you sent in your folder
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`11· ·and use those reference numbers.
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Will you please turn to paragraph 31 in
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`13· ·your declaration.
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`14· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I'm at paragraph 31.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· Is this the definition of a POSITA you apply
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`16· ·in your declaration?
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`17· · · · ·A.· Yes, this is.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· Would a POSITA know how to design -- strike
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`19· ·that.
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`20· · · · · · ·Would a POSITA, under this definition, know
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`21· ·how to design and build a wireless power system similar
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`22· ·to the one described in the '962 patent?
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`23· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
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`24· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A POSITA, using the background
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`25· ·and the available reference materials, would understand
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 12 of 74
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`·1· ·how to build a wireless power receiver or transmitter,
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`·2· ·yes.
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`·3· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· And part of that knowledge of a POSITA would
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`·5· ·be the background of various ways to build a wireless
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`·6· ·power system like the one in the '962 patent?
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`·7· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
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`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So a POSITA would have their
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`·9· ·basic education and experience, and they have what
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`10· ·publicly available materials are out there at the time,
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`11· ·and they would understand they could review those
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`12· ·materials and understand them and that they may use
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`13· ·those to help them understand how to meet a particular
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`14· ·design.
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`15· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
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`16· · · · ·Q.· Did you personally meet the definition of a
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`17· ·POSITA as of June 27th, 2013?
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`18· · · · ·A.· As of 2013, I personally would have been a
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`19· ·person of extraordinary skill in the art.· But that
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`20· ·would subsume the same skill set as a POSITA.· At the
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`21· ·time I also taught graduate students in wireless power,
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`22· ·and I also collaborated with General Motors to develop
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`23· ·wireless power systems.· And in doing so, I worked with
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`24· ·a number of individuals that would meet the definition
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`25· ·of a POSITA.
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 13 of 74
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· So as of June 27th, 2013, would a person of
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`·2· ·extraordinary skill in the art provide different
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`·3· ·analysis than a person of ordinary skill in the art with
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`·4· ·respect to the issues in this petition?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· So in general, a POSITA meets the bachelor's
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`·6· ·degree with two years of work experience or equivalent.
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`·7· ·I myself, as of 2013, had a Ph.D. and almost 20 years of
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`·8· ·experience.· And so I would have had more experience and
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`·9· ·more body of knowledge than a POSITA would have at the
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`10· ·time.
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`11· · · · · · ·But once again, I worked regularly with
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`12· ·POSITAs at the time, so can understand from the
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`13· ·perspective of that POSITA what they would understand in
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`14· ·looking at a design.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· So is it fair to say that a person of
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`16· ·extraordinary skill knows additional -- has additional
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`17· ·understanding over and above a POSITA?
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`18· · · · ·A.· I would say that an expert would have a deeper
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`19· ·knowledge of the field and also would be able to apply a
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`20· ·deeper level of analysis than a POSITA with less
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`21· ·experience.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· Do you know the standard of obviousness that
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`23· ·you applied in your declaration?
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`24· · · · ·A.· Yes.· One moment.· I outline it in section --
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`25· ·I believe it's D.· And I refer in paragraph 27 to the
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 14 of 74
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`·1· ·Graham factors.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· When you were applying Graham factors in your
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`·3· ·declaration, did you apply that from the perspective of
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`·4· ·a person of extraordinary skill in the art or a person
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`·5· ·of ordinary skill in the art?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· As I stated, I apply -- in paragraph 31 of the
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`·7· ·declaration, I apply in every piece the level of skill
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`·8· ·of art described for a POSITA.· So in obviousness, I
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`·9· ·applied it from the perspective of a POSITA.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Let's turn to paragraph 30 in your
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`11· ·declaration.· Can you please read this paragraph 30 for
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`12· ·the record.
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`13· · · · ·A.· Sure.· Reading paragraph 30 from my
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`14· ·declaration, "In particular, I understand that it is
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`15· ·improper to use the challenged patent's disclosure or
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`16· ·invention as a roadmap to find its prior-art components,
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`17· ·because such an approach discounts the value of
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`18· ·combining various existing features or principles in a
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`19· ·new way to achieve a new result."
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`20· · · · ·Q.· Can you explain what you mean by this
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`21· ·paragraph?
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`22· · · · ·A.· One should not use, in examining the prior
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`23· ·art, the patent in question, specifically in this case
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`24· ·the '962, as a guidance of knowing all the parts or, if
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`25· ·you will, all the roads you need to go and using it as a
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`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 15 of 74
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`·1· ·means to piece them together.· That would be
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`·2· ·inappropriate.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· So is it your understanding that it's improper
`
`·4· ·to combine two prior art elements because the patent
`
`·5· ·says to combine the two prior art elements?
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
`
`·8· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· So let me rephrase.
`
`10· · · · · · ·So is it your understanding that it is proper
`
`11· ·to combine two prior art elements because the patent
`
`12· ·says to combine two prior art elements?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· So in looking at obviousness and combining the
`
`14· ·patent elements, the '962 should not be used except in
`
`15· ·the context of you're, obviously, one, understanding the
`
`16· ·claims that are there.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So you begin with a POSITA at the time of
`
`18· ·invention, and you, from their perspective, look at the
`
`19· ·different pieces of prior art.· And you can combine.
`
`20· ·When you do combine, you're looking for a motivation to
`
`21· ·combine, that the POSITA will be aware of the different
`
`22· ·pieces that you're combining and if there's a motivation
`
`23· ·to do it and that also that they would likely be
`
`24· ·successful in combining those pieces.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· So is it improper to combine two prior art
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 16 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·elements if those elements had already been combined in
`
`·2· ·the prior art?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· Could you restate maybe a
`
`·5· ·little differently for me.
`
`·6· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· Yes.· So if there are already two prior art
`
`·8· ·elements known before the critical date, is it improper
`
`·9· ·to combine those prior art elements if those elements
`
`10· ·had already been combined in the prior art?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think what you're asking is,
`
`13· ·maybe to put it simpler, if there's prior art element A
`
`14· ·in one patent, there's prior art element B in a second
`
`15· ·patent, and in a third patent A and B are combined,
`
`16· ·could you use that to show either anticipation or
`
`17· ·obviousness?
`
`18· · · · · · ·And I think you just look at patent 3 because
`
`19· ·it has A and B combined.· You could look at that
`
`20· ·combination.· You could look at A separately.· You could
`
`21· ·look at B separately.· Just because A and B are combined
`
`22· ·in some way in patent 3 does not mean that combination
`
`23· ·is meaningful for the analysis you might want to do.
`
`24· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Is it fair to say that a POSITA would find it
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 17 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·obvious to combine two prior art elements that had
`
`·2· ·already been combined?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· So a POSITA would find it obvious to combine
`
`·4· ·two elements if it was a benefit to combine those two
`
`·5· ·elements for the purpose of what the POSITA was looking
`
`·6· ·to do.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·If there was a third piece of art that
`
`·8· ·combines two elements and that combination had a
`
`·9· ·meaningful benefit to what the POSITA is looking at,
`
`10· ·then the POSITA could, yes, use that patent 3, where the
`
`11· ·two elements are combined, when there's a benefit and
`
`12· ·likelihood of successfully implementing.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· Let's turn to exhibit previously marked 1008,
`
`14· ·and that is U.S. 9,443,648, referred to as the Sawa
`
`15· ·reference.
`
`16· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I have 1008, Sawa, in front of me.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Are you familiar with the Sawa reference?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· I am familiar with the reference.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· Can you please turn to column 5, line 34.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· I'm there.· Column 5, at 34.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Do you see the sentence beginning
`
`22· ·with "A magnetostriction indicates"?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· I do, yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· Can you please read this sentence for the
`
`25· ·record.
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 18 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· "A magnetostriction indicates a rate of
`
`·2· ·expansion or contraction of a magnetic substance in a
`
`·3· ·magnetic field direction at a time that the magnetic
`
`·4· ·substance is magnetized by an external magnetic field."
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Does this sentence accurately describe
`
`·6· ·magnetostriction?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· It's consistent with my understanding of
`
`·8· ·magnetostriction, yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· So it's your understanding that
`
`10· ·magnetostriction indicates the rate or how quickly a
`
`11· ·magnetic substance expands and contracts when exposed to
`
`12· ·an external field?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· I might not have used the word "rate," but
`
`14· ·magnetostriction indicates the expansion or contraction
`
`15· ·of a magnetic material, and one could consider rate to
`
`16· ·perhaps be a percentage.· If you look above, they do
`
`17· ·ppm, parts per million.· So it's a reference into how
`
`18· ·much it actually moves.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· But Sawa uses the word "rate" here.
`
`20· · · · · · ·What is your -- you said you might not agree
`
`21· ·with that.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Why do you think Sawa used the word "rate" for
`
`23· ·this?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· So just to clarify, I believe I said I don't
`
`25· ·know that I would use -- I personally would use the word
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 19 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·"rate."
`
`·2· · · · · · ·But from the disclosure, Sawa was consistent
`
`·3· ·that they're looking at the concept of magnetostriction,
`
`·4· ·which is when the material moves dimensionally when a
`
`·5· ·magnetic field is applied.· And that is often measured
`
`·6· ·in a percentage movement, and they give percentages in
`
`·7· ·ppm above this.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And so I understand the rate of expansion to
`
`·9· ·be the percentage expansion or contraction of the
`
`10· ·magnetic substance.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· What does ppm stand for in this context?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· This would be -- I believe it's parts per
`
`13· ·million here.· It would be a rate for how much it
`
`14· ·contracts or expands.· So, for instance, zero would be
`
`15· ·no contraction or expansion, and a larger number would
`
`16· ·mean a greater contraction or expansion.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Can we turn back to your declaration,
`
`18· ·paragraph 51.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· I'm there.· Yeah.· I'm there, in paragraph 51,
`
`20· ·yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· Can you read the sentence for the record that
`
`22· ·starts on the last line of page 20.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· Is this the one that begins with "As Sawa
`
`24· ·indicates"?
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Yes.
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 20 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· "As Sawa indicates, 'magnetostriction
`
`·2· ·indicates a range of expansion or contraction of a
`
`·3· ·magnetic substance in a magnetic field direction at a
`
`·4· ·time that the magnetic substance is magnetized by an
`
`·5· ·external magnetic field.'"
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· And is this the quote from Sawa we were just
`
`·7· ·discussing?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· I believe it is very similar.· I believe that
`
`·9· ·the word -- let's just see.· Let me just go check.
`
`10· · · · · · ·Yes.· I believe it's the same, except the word
`
`11· ·"rate" is typed in my declaration as "range."
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· So did you mean to type the word "range"
`
`13· ·instead of "rate" in this quote?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· I imagine this is simply a transcription
`
`15· ·error.· In that paragraph earlier, "range" is used
`
`16· ·throughout.· Obviously, in doing a direct quote from
`
`17· ·column 5, line 34, that would be appropriate to use the
`
`18· ·exact words, which would be "rate."
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· So did you catch this error as you reviewed
`
`20· ·your declaration?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I was not aware of it when I
`
`23· ·reviewed.· Had I been aware, I would have mentioned that
`
`24· ·at the beginning of our deposition here.
`
`25
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 21 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Did you know that the patent owner
`
`·3· ·response found in this IPR also contains this error?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· I'm not aware of that.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Who typed this sentence in your declaration?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· So this was either copied or pasted or was
`
`·7· ·hand typed.· And I can't recall specifically in this
`
`·8· ·paragraph all the parts that I drafted initially or that
`
`·9· ·might have been edited after my initial draft.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· So does this error affect your analysis
`
`11· ·contained in the paragraph 51?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· No.· I don't believe it has material impact on
`
`13· ·the opinion in paragraph 51.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· I believe you testified earlier that rate is
`
`15· ·different than the amount or range of expansion.
`
`16· · · · · · ·So how does this error not affect your
`
`17· ·analysis in paragraph 51?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· Well --
`
`19· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.
`
`20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Once again, I think what I said
`
`21· ·earlier was I might not use the word "rate" in the
`
`22· ·sentence as described in Sawa.
`
`23· · · · · · ·However, I think Sawa provides a clear
`
`24· ·explanation of what is meant, and that is the amount
`
`25· ·that the magnetic material expands or contracts when you
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 22 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·have an applied field, and specifically Sawa is
`
`·2· ·disclosing using materials with a high magnetostriction,
`
`·3· ·so a high movement in a magnetic field.· And I think
`
`·4· ·that's consistent with paragraph 51 in my report.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· So despite using a different word than Sawa
`
`·7· ·uses, your analysis is still accurate?· Is that your
`
`·8· ·testimony?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· Having a typographical error in the quotation
`
`10· ·from "rate" to "range," the usage of that quotation from
`
`11· ·Sawa is in the same meaning of the material that moves
`
`12· ·in a magnetic field or changes dimension.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· Is iron-silicon alloy an example of a
`
`14· ·nanocrystalline magnetic material?
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So nanocrystalline refers to the
`
`17· ·manufactured process.· So many different materials can
`
`18· ·be nanocrystalline.· It's, if you will, the structure,
`
`19· ·how it's processed.· And then the actual atoms or
`
`20· ·molecules that are used inside of that will vary
`
`21· ·depending upon the design.
`
`22· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· Can the atoms inside that nanocrystalline
`
`24· ·magnetic material be iron-silicon alloy?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· I would have to check a specific reference to
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 23 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·find an iron-silicon nanocrystalline, as an example.
`
`·2· ·I'm familiar nanocrystalline can have multiple elements
`
`·3· ·in it, but I'd have to look at a specific reference.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· But you can't say one way or the other right
`
`·5· ·now whether iron-silicon alloy is an example of a
`
`·6· ·nanocrystalline magnetic material?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· Well, I think from a technical standpoint, the
`
`·8· ·question is -- so nanocrystalline material is how you
`
`·9· ·make something.· So you can take many different
`
`10· ·combinations of elements, and you can make them into
`
`11· ·many different forms.· The nanocrystalline is a form.
`
`12· ·It's a -- if you will, it's the structure, the
`
`13· ·mechanical structure, of what the element becomes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· Can you use iron -- can one of the elements
`
`15· ·contained in a nanocrystalline material be iron?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· I believe so, yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· Can one of the elements contained in a
`
`18· ·nanocrystalline magnetic material be silicon?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· Once again, I'd have to check specific
`
`20· ·references on that.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· Did you check any references when you were
`
`22· ·forming your declaration to understand this issue?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· Well, I checked the examples listed in the
`
`24· ·patents, for instance.· So in Sawa, for example.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Is nanocrystalline magnetic material an
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 24 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·example of a type of material that may be used in
`
`·2· ·Suzuki's magnetic layer 171?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So in Suzuki, column 7, at 4 or
`
`·5· ·5, the magnetic layer 171 may be a sheet made from
`
`·6· ·manganese ferrites, amorphous magnetic alloy,
`
`·7· ·iron-nickel alloy, Permalloy, nanocrystalline magnetic
`
`·8· ·material, or the like.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· So did you consider which nanocrystalline
`
`11· ·magnetic materials may be used for Suzuki's magnetic
`
`12· ·layer 171 in forming your declaration?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· I did not investigate a specific
`
`14· ·nanocrystalline material.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Can we turn back to Exhibit 1008, Sawa
`
`16· ·reference.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· Okay.· I'm there.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· Can we turn to column 8, line 59.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· I'm there at column 8, line 59.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· All right.· Can you read this first sentence
`
`21· ·for the record.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· First sentence of column 8, 59, the composing
`
`23· ·material of the first magnetic thin plate 2 is not
`
`24· ·limited in particular as long as the composing material
`
`25· ·satisfies the above-described characteristics, but it is
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 25 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·preferable to apply an alloy based upon iron or nickel.
`
`·2· ·And I believe the above-described characteristics are
`
`·3· ·referring to a large magnetostriction constant.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· What is a large magnetostriction constant?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Sawa describes that as being greater than --
`
`·6· ·look at the reference -- exceeding 5 ppm.· So I use the
`
`·7· ·term "large," but more specifically Sawa describes it as
`
`·8· ·exceeding 5 ppm.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· So starting on line 65 of column 8, Sawa lists
`
`10· ·several iron alloys that can be used for thin plate 2.
`
`11· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· I do see line 64, yes, column 8.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· So are these iron alloys listed because they
`
`14· ·have the above-described characteristic of
`
`15· ·magnetostriction above 5 ppm?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.
`
`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So the sentence reads, as the
`
`18· ·composing material of the first magnetic thin plates 2,
`
`19· ·there can be cited an iron alloy of an iron-chromium
`
`20· ·system, an iron-nickel system, an iron-silicon system,
`
`21· ·or the like.
`
`22· · · · · · ·So specifically in the characteristics above,
`
`23· ·when we talk about magnetostriction, the
`
`24· ·magnetostriction is the result of the elemental
`
`25· ·components, so the atoms.· And then it's also dependent
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 26 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·upon the specific manufacturing method in order to
`
`·2· ·obtain the magnetic properties that are desired.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·So this sentence here describes some of the
`
`·4· ·elemental components, and then you'd have to attach to
`
`·5· ·that how they are manufactured.
`
`·6· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So it's your understanding that each of these
`
`·8· ·iron alloys has a magnetostriction constant above 5 ppm?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· I believe my understanding of what Sawa is
`
`10· ·disclosing here is that one can make a material using
`
`11· ·these elements to achieve a magnetic sheet with a
`
`12· ·magnetostriction exceeding 5 ppm.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· And when you say "one can make," do you mean a
`
`14· ·POSITA would know how to create an iron alloy with a
`
`15· ·magnetostriction constant above 5 ppm?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I believe Sawa describes several
`
`18· ·elements of compositions to achieve a magnetostriction
`
`19· ·greater than 5 ppm and discusses some of the elemental
`
`20· ·components of them.· So I believe Sawa discloses a great
`
`21· ·deal of information on how to construct a magnetic
`
`22· ·layer 2 that has a high -- clarify -- a magnetostriction
`
`23· ·constant greater than 5 ppm.
`
`24· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· So can the magnetostriction constant of an
`
`EX. 1019
`APPLE INC. / Page 27 of 74
`
`
`
`·1· ·iron alloy be adjusted by adjusting the composition
`
`·2· ·ratio of the contents?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A magnetostriction can be
`
`·5· ·adjusted by adjusting the composition of the elements
`
`·6· ·and also by adjusting the manufacturing process.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· And adjusting the composition ratio of an
`
`·9· ·alloy to adjust the alloy's magnetostriction constant,
`
`10· ·that was something a POSITA in 2013 knew how to do?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`12· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sawa discloses several
`
`13· ·parameters on how to design a magnetic thin plate 2 that
`
`14· ·has a magnetostriction constant greater than 5 ppm.· In
`
`15· ·multiple of the paragraphs, it outlines the composition,
`
`16· ·the ranges of compositions that would work.· So a POSITA
`
`17· ·reading Sawa would have an understanding of how to
`
`18· ·create these compounds or materials.
`
`19· ·BY MR. JARRATT:
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· And when you say create these materials
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