Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 1 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-00117
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,843,215
`·7· ·SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`15· · · · · · · · ·DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · ·OCTOBER 6, 2022
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`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN
`· · ·CSR 7882
`25· ·No. 22-115357
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 2 of 76
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`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2022-00117
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 9,843,215
`·7· ·SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY LTD.,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
`· · ·________________________________)
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS,
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`15· · · · · · ·PH.D., a witness herein, taken on
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`16· · · · · · ·behalf of the petitioner via Zoom
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`17· · · · · · ·videoconference at 6:58 a.m. Pacific
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`18· · · · · · ·Daylight Time on Thursday, October 6,
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`19· · · · · · ·2022, before Colleen M. Peterman,
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`20· · · · · · ·CSR 7882.
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 3 of 76
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES (All Participants Appeared Remotely):
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`·2
`· · ·For Petitioner:
`·3
`· · · · · · · HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`·4· · · · · · BY CALMANN CLEMENTS
`· · · · · · · · ·SCOTT T. JARRATT
`·5· · · · · · 2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700
`· · · · · · · Dallas, Texas 75219
`·6· · · · · · 972.739.8663
`· · · · · · · 214.200.0853 Fax
`·7· · · · · · calmann.clements@haynesboone.com
`· · · · · · · scott.jarratt@haynesboone.com
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`·9· ·For Patent Owner:
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`10· · · · · · BC LAW GROUP, P.C.
`· · · · · · · BY JOHN PETRSORIC
`11· · · · · · 200 Madison Avenue, 24th Floor
`· · · · · · · New York, New York 10016
`12· · · · · · 212.951.0100
`· · · · · · · 646.293.2201 Fax
`13· · · · · · jpetrsoric@bc-lawgroup.com
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 4 of 76
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS:· DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. CLEMENTS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`·8· ·PETITIONER'S· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · ·(No Exhibits Marked)
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 5 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·OCTOBER 6, 2022
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·DAVID SHAWN RICKETTS, PH.D.,
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`·5· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
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`·6· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
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`·7· · · · · · · · · AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`11· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Dr. Ricketts, could you please state your full
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`13· ·name for the record.
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`14· · · · ·A.· David Shawn, S-h-a-w-n, Ricketts,
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`15· ·R-i-c-k-e-t-t-s.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· And you've been deposed before; correct?
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`17· · · · ·A.· Yes, I have been.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· How many times?
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`19· · · · ·A.· Somewhere between 10 and 15.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· So you generally know how depositions work; is
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`21· ·that correct?
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`22· · · · ·A.· That is correct.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· And you know that you must provide verbal
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`24· ·answers to my questions so that the court reporter can
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`25· ·make an accurate transcript; correct?
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 6 of 76
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`·1· · · · ·A.· I understand, yes.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· And because we are forming a record here, it's
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`·3· ·important that we don't talk over each other.· So if you
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`·4· ·can let me finish my question, I'll let you finish your
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`·5· ·answers.
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`·6· · · · · · ·Agreed?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· Yes, that's agreed.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· And you understand that your counsel might
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`·9· ·object to a question, but you still must provide an
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`10· ·answer to that question unless instructed otherwise;
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`11· ·correct?
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`12· · · · ·A.· I understand.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· And if you're confused as to a question that I
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`14· ·ask, please let me know so that I can perhaps ask it
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`15· ·differently.
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`16· · · · · · ·Can we agree on that?
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`17· · · · ·A.· I will ask you if I'm confused.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· You're connecting to the deposition today on a
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`19· ·personal computer; correct?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Yes, I am.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· Aside from Zoom, are there any other
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`22· ·applications running on your personal computer today?
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`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I have Adobe Acrobat open with several
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`24· ·of the documents, and then I also have a single web
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`25· ·browser with the patent office's version of the patent.
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 7 of 76
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· Any messaging programs?
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`·2· · · · ·A.· No.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any other electronic devices in
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`·4· ·the room with you?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· I do have my cell phone.· That's been set to
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`·6· ·do not disturb.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· Are there any other people in the room with
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`·8· ·you today?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· There is not.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· Do you have any handwritten notes with you
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`11· ·today?
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`12· · · · ·A.· I do not.· All my copies are unmarked.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· Now, is there any reason that you can't
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`14· ·provide full and accurate testimony today?
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`15· · · · ·A.· No, there is not.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· You understand that the testimony you will be
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`17· ·providing today will be used in an inter partes review
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`18· ·proceeding, IPR2022-00117; correct?
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`19· · · · ·A.· Correct.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· And do you understand that your testimony will
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`21· ·be publicly available if filed in this proceeding?
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`22· · · · ·A.· I do.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· And do you understand that anyone can download
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`24· ·the record and view the statements you make on the
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`25· ·record today?
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 8 of 76
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`·1· · · · ·A.· I do.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· And IPR2022-00117 concerns U.S. patent
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`·3· ·9,843,215; correct?
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`·4· · · · ·A.· Correct.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· So if I say the '215 patent, you'll understand
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`·6· ·that to be referring to U.S. patent 9,843,215; correct?
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`·7· · · · ·A.· That's correct.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· How many IPRs have you worked on?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· At least eight or more.· I'd have to check my
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`10· ·C.V. to get an exact count.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· And just some other definitions for today.
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`12· · · · · · ·If I use the acronym POSITA, will you
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`13· ·understand that to mean a person of ordinary skill in
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`14· ·the art as of March 4th, 2014, which is the earliest
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`15· ·alleged priority date of the '215 patent?
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`16· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I'll understand that to be a POSITA.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· And when I say your declaration, will you
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`18· ·understand that I'm referring to Exhibit 2020 filed in
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`19· ·this IPR?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Yes, I will.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· And if I refer to this IPR, you'll understand
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`22· ·that to be mean inter partes review proceeding
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`23· ·IPR2022-00117; correct?
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`24· · · · ·A.· Correct.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· When did you begin working on this matter for
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 9 of 76
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`·1· ·Scramoge?
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`·2· · · · ·A.· It would have began at least 30 days before my
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`·3· ·declaration.· I'd have to check the dates to see exactly
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`·4· ·when I started work.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· And who wrote your declaration?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· The declaration is mine, and the opinions in
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`·7· ·it are mine.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· Were you provided with a first draft?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· I was -- I provided a first draft of technical
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`10· ·comments, and then it was further edited and revised,
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`11· ·with approval by me.
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Who came up with the positions in your
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`13· ·declaration?
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`14· · · · ·A.· I was asked to opine on specific issues, and
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`15· ·my report responds to those requests on those issues.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· Approximately how long did you spend preparing
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`17· ·for your declaration?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Preparing for my declaration, somewhere
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`19· ·between 10 and 15 hours.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· And what did you review in preparation for
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`21· ·your deposition today?
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`22· · · · ·A.· I reviewed the patent in question, the
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`23· ·petition, and my declaration.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· Are there any errors in your declaration that
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`25· ·you're aware of?
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`·1· · · · ·A.· Not that I'm aware of.· But if I notice one
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`·2· ·today in our discussions, I will be sure to point it out
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`·3· ·to you.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Do you still stand by all of the opinions that
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`·5· ·you provided in your declaration?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· I do.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· In your declaration, you cite to Exhibit 2019,
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`·8· ·which is "Introduction to Inorganic Chemistry"; correct?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Could you refer me to where in my declaration
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`10· ·I make that reference?
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`11· · · · ·Q.· On page 21 of your declaration.
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`12· · · · ·A.· Yes.· I have found it there.· Yes.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· And there you cite to page 36 of your
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`14· ·declaration; correct?· Or 36 of the -- page 36 of the
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`15· ·Exhibit 2019; correct?
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`16· · · · ·A.· That is cited in my declaration, and then I
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`17· ·provided the textbook link below.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· And is the information on page 36 reflective
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`19· ·of a POSITA's understanding in 2014?
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`20· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
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`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So this is an introductory
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`22· ·section to understand and explain the technology.· And
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`23· ·the purpose of this demonstrative is to demonstrate that
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`24· ·the structure of a material strongly affects -- the
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`25· ·fabrication and structure of material strongly affects
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 11 of 76
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`·1· ·its magnetic property.
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`·2· · · · · · ·So a POSITA would understand that the chemical
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`·3· ·composition is part of the magnetic properties material
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`·4· ·and would also understand that the physical composition
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`·5· ·or manufacturing of it would also significantly impact
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`·6· ·the magnetic properties.
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`·7· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· So the information on this page would have
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`·9· ·been reflective of a POSITA's understanding in 2014;
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`10· ·correct?
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`11· · · · ·A.· A POSITA would have understood that the
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`12· ·structure of the magnetic material can significantly
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`13· ·affect its magnetic properties, yes.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· Let's turn to page 36 of Exhibit 2019.· Can
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`15· ·you read the first paragraph on that page into the
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`16· ·record.
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`17· · · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· Could you repeat the question?
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`18· · · · ·Q.· So let's turn to page 36 of Exhibit 2019.
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`19· · · · · · ·Are you there?
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`20· · · · ·A.· I'm at page 36 now, yes.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Can you read the first paragraph into
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`22· ·the record.
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`23· · · · ·A.· Sure.· Reading the first paragraph.· Quote,
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`24· ·"Whether a ferro- or ferrimagnetic material is a hard or
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`25· ·a soft magnet depends on the strength of the magnetic
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 12 of 76
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`·1· ·field needed to align the magnetic domains.· This
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`·2· ·property is characterized by Hc, the coercivity.· Hard
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`·3· ·magnets have a high coercivity (Hc), and thus retain
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`·4· ·their magnetization in the absence of an applied field,
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`·5· ·whereas soft magnets have low values," end quote.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· So I want to dig into this a little bit more,
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`·7· ·but before, I want to note that this reference is dated
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`·8· ·in 2020.
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`·9· · · · · · ·Are you aware that this reference is dated
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`10· ·2020?
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`11· · · · ·A.· I did not investigate the publishing date of
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`12· ·this.· Once again, this was included in my background
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`13· ·material to help explain the technology.· So this was
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`14· ·included to provide that explanation.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· But you would agree that this information
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`16· ·would have been reflective of the understanding of a
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`17· ·POSITA in 2014; correct?
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`18· · · · ·A.· My understanding is that the concepts of hard
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`19· ·and soft magnets go back well before 2000.· And so a
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`20· ·POSITA would understand similar information about hard
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`21· ·and soft magnetic materials.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· So in 2014, would a POSITA understand that
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`23· ·when someone says a hard magnetic material, it's
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`24· ·referring to something with a high coercivity?
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`25· · · · ·A.· One definition of a hard magnetic material is
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`·1· ·one that has a high coercivity.· Yes.· They would
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`·2· ·understand that.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· And would they understand in 2014 that a soft
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`·4· ·magnetic material has a low coercivity?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· Yes.· In general, a soft magnetic material has
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`·6· ·a low coercivity.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· And because this is reflective of what a
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`·8· ·POSITA understood in 2014, that's the definition of hard
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`·9· ·and soft that you applied in your declaration; correct?
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`10· · · · ·A.· I believe in my declaration, I describe hard
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`11· ·properties of materials, which also would be understood
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`12· ·as properties of hard magnetic materials.· The use of
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`13· ·coercivity as a metric assumes that -- the B-H loop
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`14· ·assumes a standard shape.· For instance, if you had a
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`15· ·material that didn't follow the standard shape, then one
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`16· ·would look more closely at the magnetic response to
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`17· ·fields.
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`18· · · · · · ·In general, a POSITA would understand that a
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`19· ·hard magnetic material is one that requires a
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`20· ·significant field to change the magnetic orientation or
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`21· ·domains and a soft is one that it's very easy to.
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`22· · · · · · ·And the coercivity is measured at a single
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`23· ·point on the H axis.· So there's an assumption about the
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`24· ·material, uniformity, et cetera, when they make a
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`25· ·generalization about hard and soft just based on the
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`·1· ·coercivity.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· So let's take a look at this figure here down
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`·3· ·on page 36.
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`·4· · · · · · ·You said that the coercivity indicates where
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`·5· ·the B-H curve intersects the X axis; correct?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· That is generally the definition, yes.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in this figure, the blue B-H curve
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`·8· ·has a high coercivity because it intersects the X axis
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`·9· ·at a greater value.
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`10· · · · ·A.· So the blue line crosses the X axis at a
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`11· ·greater value than the black line.· That is true.· And
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`12· ·the figure caption describes that blue as a hard magnet.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· So it's a hard magnetic material because it
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`14· ·has an X axis intercepting the B-H curve that is high.
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`15· · · · ·A.· So material that has a -- what do you call
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`16· ·it -- a B-H curve that crosses the X axis at a high
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`17· ·H field is a hard magnetic material.· Once again, the
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`18· ·hard refers to the ability of -- or the response of the
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`19· ·magnetic domains to an external field.· So the
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`20· ·coercivity is a characteristic of material that it is
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`21· ·hard to change the directions of the domains inside the
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`22· ·material.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· Let's take a look at the second paragraph of
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`24· ·page 36.· Can you read that into the record.
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`25· · · · ·A.· Yes.· Reading the second paragraph of page 36,
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`·1· ·quote, the figure at the right compares hysteresis loops
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`·2· ·for hard and soft magnets.· Recall that the energy
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`·3· ·dissipated in magnetizing and demagnetizing the material
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`·4· ·is proportional to the area of the hysteresis loop.· We
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`·5· ·can see that soft magnets, while they can achieve a high
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`·6· ·value of Bsat, dissipate relatively little energy in the
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`·7· ·loop.· This makes soft magnets preferable for use in
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`·8· ·transformer cores, where the field is switched rapidly.
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`·9· ·Permalloy, an alloy consisting of about 20 percent iron
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`10· ·and 80 percent nickel, is a soft magnet that has very
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`11· ·high magnet permeability -- i.e., a large maximum slope
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`12· ·of the B vs. H curve -- and a very narrow hysteresis
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`13· ·loop, end quote.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· So this paragraph describes how soft magnets
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`15· ·dissipate relatively little energy in the loop and are
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`16· ·suitable for transformer cores, where the field is
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`17· ·switched rapidly.
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`18· · · · · · ·Would a POSITA in 2014 have known about these
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`19· ·benefits of soft magnetic materials?
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`20· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· This paragraph does describe a
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`22· ·property of soft magnets that the area of -- hysteresis
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`23· ·loop is small, and for alternating currents or rapidly
`
`24· ·switched currents or fields, that is a benefit.· And a
`
`25· ·POSITA would know that that would be a benefit in using
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 16 of 76
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`·1· ·soft magnets in a transformer core.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have understood
`
`·4· ·that in a wireless charging system, the magnetic field
`
`·5· ·switches rapidly?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· A POSITA would understand that the AC magnetic
`
`·7· ·field that is used to transfer power would rapidly
`
`·8· ·change values; however, they would also be aware that
`
`·9· ·DC magnets were also used, which do not change their
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`10· ·value.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have understood
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`12· ·that soft magnets are preferable in wireless power
`
`13· ·systems because they dissipate relatively little energy
`
`14· ·as compared to hard magnetic materials?
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A POSITA would understand that
`
`17· ·in building a transformer core, there's multiple factors
`
`18· ·that affect the performance, one of the notable ones
`
`19· ·being permeability, which tends to be a prime factor in
`
`20· ·selecting materials.
`
`21· · · · · · ·Also, having a soft magnetic material is
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`22· ·preferable for rapidly switching fields due to the
`
`23· ·losses that you mentioned before and also because it's
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`24· ·very responsive to that rapidly switching field.
`
`25
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 17 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· Now, the last sentence of that paragraph, it
`
`·3· ·gives an example of Permalloy as a soft magnetic
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`·4· ·material.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Would a POSITA in 2014 have known about these
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`·6· ·characteristics of Permalloy?
`
`·7· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
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`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A POSITA would have understood
`
`·9· ·that there are materials referred to as Permalloys, and
`
`10· ·they consist of a mixture of iron and nickel.· The
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`11· ·specific mixture of iron and nickel determines the
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`12· ·specific properties of the material.· They would
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`13· ·understand that Permalloy is a material with iron and
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`14· ·nickel and that there are forms of Permalloy that are
`
`15· ·soft magnets, yes.
`
`16· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have known that a
`
`18· ·soft magnetic Permalloy would be preferred over a hard
`
`19· ·magnetic material in an application where the magnetic
`
`20· ·field switches rapidly?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Could you repeat the
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`23· ·question for me?
`
`24· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· Would a POSITA in 2014 have known that a soft
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 18 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· ·magnetic Permalloy would be preferred over a hard
`
`·2· ·magnetic material in an application where the magnetic
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`·3· ·field switches rapidly?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· A POSITA would have understood in 2014 that to
`
`·5· ·use a magnetic material to concentrate flux at a high
`
`·6· ·permeability would be desired, that low loss would be
`
`·7· ·desired, and responsiveness of the magnetic field to the
`
`·8· ·externals -- or the magnetic domains to the external
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`·9· ·field would be desired, which is a soft property.
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`10· · · · · · ·And a POSITA would understand that there
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`11· ·exists combinations of iron and nickel that do produce a
`
`12· ·soft magnetic material with high permeability.· And they
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`13· ·would look up the specific combinations of nickel and
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`14· ·iron that would provide the performance that they're
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`15· ·looking for.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have known that a
`
`17· ·soft magnetic Permalloy would be preferred in that
`
`18· ·application because it would dissipate relatively little
`
`19· ·energy as compared to a hard magnetic material?
`
`20· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
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`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Principally, a POSITA would
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`22· ·understand that a hard magnetic material would not
`
`23· ·respond to a small external field used in wireless
`
`24· ·power.
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`25· · · · · · ·And so the POSITA would be looking for a
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 19 of 76
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`·1· ·material that is responsive to the external field, to
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`·2· ·the rapidly switching field, and, therefore, would look
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`·3· ·for a soft material, and they could find a soft material
`
`·4· ·in the iron-nickel family of Permalloys.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· So when this reference says Permalloy, is it
`
`·7· ·referring to iron-nickel alloys in general or specific
`
`·8· ·compositions of iron-nickel alloys?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· So it says Permalloy, an alloy consisting of
`
`10· ·about 20 percent iron and 80 percent nickel.· And
`
`11· ·Permalloy is unique in that if you change the
`
`12· ·stoichiometric values of iron and nickel, the properties
`
`13· ·change dramatically.· For instance, the permeability
`
`14· ·drops significantly when there's just a small change in
`
`15· ·these ratios.· In addition, there's an assumption of how
`
`16· ·the material is made and structured.
`
`17· · · · · · ·So to be clear, a POSITA would understand
`
`18· ·there exists a material, Permalloy, and that in that
`
`19· ·material there exists combinations of iron and nickel,
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`20· ·about 20 percent and 80 percent, that have high magnetic
`
`21· ·permeability and that are soft and could be used for
`
`22· ·wireless power applications where a rapid -- a field is
`
`23· ·switched rapidly.· A POSITA would understand all of
`
`24· ·those.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· And does changing the composition of the
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 20 of 76
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`·1· ·Permalloy change the coercivity of the Permalloy?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· Changing the composition of the Permalloy
`
`·3· ·would change its magnetic properties.· Also, the
`
`·4· ·manufacturing of the Permalloy would also change its
`
`·5· ·properties, as would the orientation of the crystals of
`
`·6· ·the Permalloy in the specific application.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So would it change the coercivity
`
`·8· ·specifically?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· Specifically, it would change the permittivity
`
`10· ·and the coercivity of the material, yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have known how to
`
`12· ·form a soft magnetic Permalloy plate for use in an
`
`13· ·application where the magnetic field switches rapidly?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· A POSITA would have been able to obtain a
`
`15· ·Permalloy magnetic plate with soft magnetic properties
`
`16· ·and use that in a wireless power transceiver.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· And would a POSITA in 2014 have known how to
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`18· ·form a soft magnetic Permalloy plate of various
`
`19· ·thicknesses for that application?
`
`20· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`21· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· A POSITA would be able to obtain
`
`22· ·different thicknesses of a Permalloy -- a soft Permalloy
`
`23· ·plate, yes.
`
`24· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· So, for example, would a POSITA in 2014 have
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 21 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· ·known how to form a soft magnetic Permalloy plate about
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`·2· ·100 microns thick for that application?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· A POSITA would be able to obtain a Permalloy
`
`·4· ·plate -- let me rephrase that -- a soft magnetic
`
`·5· ·Permalloy with a thickness of 100 microns, yes.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· I'd like to go back to the figure on this page
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`·7· ·and dig into coercivity a little bit more.· If we look
`
`·8· ·at the top, the first paragraph of this page, it says
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`·9· ·"Whether a ferro- or ferrimagnetic material is a hard or
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`10· ·a soft magnet depends on the strength of the magnetic
`
`11· ·field needed to align the magnetic domains.· This
`
`12· ·property is characterized by Hc, the coercivity."
`
`13· · · · · · ·So coercivity, does it specifically refer to
`
`14· ·where the B-H curve intercepts the H axis?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· The definition of coercivity that I'm familiar
`
`16· ·with is, yes, the intersection of the X axis of the
`
`17· ·B-H curve.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· And whether --
`
`19· · · · ·A.· H axis.· Sorry.· I just wanted to be clear.
`
`20· ·The X axis is the H axis, but referring it to the X axis
`
`21· ·makes perfect sense from the geometry of the figure.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· And so where the X axis crosses the -- or
`
`23· ·where the B-H curve crosses the X axis, that's the
`
`24· ·coercivity, and that is what determines whether a
`
`25· ·material is hard or soft; correct?
`
`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 22 of 76
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`·1· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Referring back to the first
`
`·3· ·sentence -- I'm just requoting it.· Whether a ferro- or
`
`·4· ·ferrimagnetic material is hard or soft depends on the
`
`·5· ·strength of the magnetic field needed to align the
`
`·6· ·magnetic domains.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·So hard and soft refer to the magnetic field
`
`·8· ·needed to align the magnetic domains.· That's the
`
`·9· ·concept of hard and soft, hard being you need a large
`
`10· ·field to align the -- to align or change the fields,
`
`11· ·soft meaning you need a much weaker field to do that.
`
`12· · · · · · ·If we assume a material that has a standard
`
`13· ·shape for a B-H curve -- if you look in the figure
`
`14· ·below, you'll see both those B-H curves are very similar
`
`15· ·shapes -- then the coercivity, or where the curve
`
`16· ·crosses the X axis, is a characteristic that would
`
`17· ·indicate that it is a hard magnet because that indicates
`
`18· ·that you need a large field to align the magnetic
`
`19· ·domains.· That's the meaning of having the right hand of
`
`20· ·the B-H curve and the left hand of the B-H curve far
`
`21· ·away from, if you will, the zero point of the X axis.
`
`22· · · · · · ·So to be clear, coercivity is a characteristic
`
`23· ·and can be used to identify hard magnetic materials, but
`
`24· ·the concept of hard magnetic materials are that you need
`
`25· ·a high strength of magnetic field to align the magnetic
`
`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 23 of 76
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`·1· ·domains, which is consistent with the B-H curve
`
`·2· ·description that we just discussed.
`
`·3· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· So on this curve, the blue line intercepts the
`
`·5· ·X axis at a particular point, but it saturates at a
`
`·6· ·different point; correct?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· The point at which it crosses the H axis is
`
`·8· ·defined as the coercivity point.· And then as we follow
`
`·9· ·the line up and to the right, it reaches an asymptote,
`
`10· ·which generally is understood as being saturated.· And
`
`11· ·that saturated means all of the magnetic domains have
`
`12· ·been aligned in the same direction.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· And that saturation point is higher along the
`
`14· ·X axis than where it intercepts the X axis; correct?
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The peak of the blue curve on
`
`17· ·page 36 and the peak of the Y axis, meaning the highest
`
`18· ·value shown on the Y axis, occurs to the right of the
`
`19· ·0 crossing of the X axis.· That is correct.
`
`20· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· So would a POSITA in 2014 understand that
`
`22· ·whether a material is hard to saturate is a different
`
`23· ·characteristic than its coercivity?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· So a hard to saturate material means that it
`
`25· ·takes a high strength of magnetic field to align fully
`
`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 24 of 76
`APPLE INC. v. SCRAMOGE TECHNOLOGY, LTD.
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`·1· ·the domains in the material.· So once again,
`
`·2· ·saturation's when you've aligned all of them.· So hard
`
`·3· ·to saturate means that you need a high magnetic field to
`
`·4· ·align all of the domains in the material.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Is it possible for different materials to have
`
`·6· ·a similar saturation point along the X axis but have
`
`·7· ·different coercivities?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· I would have to look at --
`
`·9· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection.
`
`10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I would have to look at a
`
`11· ·specific material to be able to answer that because the
`
`12· ·magnetic materials vary greatly with composition and
`
`13· ·fabrication.· And typically in textbooks such as this,
`
`14· ·this is sort of a standard shape of a B-H curve, but
`
`15· ·they can take on different shapes, depending upon the
`
`16· ·materials.
`
`17· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· Would a POSITA in 2014 know how to search for
`
`19· ·materials of different properties?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· In 2014 a POSITA would understand that in
`
`21· ·their search for an appropriate magnetic material, that
`
`22· ·manufacturers typically would provide permeability,
`
`23· ·saturation magnetization, sometimes coercivity, and
`
`24· ·sometimes a B-H curve, and they would be able to find
`
`25· ·those properties of material they're looking at and
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`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 25 of 76
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`·1· ·would understand what those properties meant.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· So would a POSITA have recognized that there
`
`·3· ·are various materials that saturate at a similar point
`
`·4· ·but have different coercivities?
`
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. PETRSORIC:· Objection to form.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Once again, I'd have to check a
`
`·7· ·specific reference.· But it would not surprise me that a
`
`·8· ·POSITA would find a material that would have different
`
`·9· ·coercivities but a similar saturation point.
`
`10· · · · · · ·And I should clarify that typically when we
`
`11· ·talk about saturation, we talk about the field on the
`
`12· ·Y axis.· For instance, in the image on page 36, the
`
`13· ·black curve and the blue curve have approximately the
`
`14· ·same peak B value, and their coercivities are
`
`15· ·considerably different, as the caption illustrates.
`
`16· ·BY MR. CLEMENTS:
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· So both the soft magnetic material here and
`
`18· ·the hard magnetic material here saturate at similar
`
`19· ·levels along the Y axis.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· That's what's shown in the figure here, yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· Now, to confirm my understanding of this
`
`22· ·B-H curve, let's go back to the hard magnetic material.
`
`23· · · · · · ·As we start to apply an external magnetic
`
`24· ·field -- in other words, a greater H value -- along this
`
`25· ·X axis, we don't do anything to change the material
`
`Ex.1017 / IPR2022-00117 / Page 26 of 76
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`·1· ·until we hit that point where it intercepts the X axis,
`
`·2· ·and then we start to align the magnetic domains; is that
`
`·3· ·correct?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· No.· That is not correct.· The assumption is
`
`·5· ·you start at the very center.· So just by way of
`
`·6· ·example -- and I'm just using this for demonstrative
`
`·7· ·purposes but not as a reference -- if you look to
`
`·8· ·page 35, you can see there's a nice light blue curve
`
`·9· ·that starts at the center.· And so this is when there's
`
`10· ·no field.
`
`11· · · · · · ·And then you start applying an H field, and
`
`12· ·that will start to align domains.· And then you -- when
`
`13· ·you've applied sufficient H field that you've aligned
`
`14· ·all the domains, you've reached the saturation
`
`15· ·magnetization, which is the far right.
`
`16· · · · · · ·And then as you decrease the H field, you
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`17· ·would walk along the top of the B-H curve
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