throbber
Deposition of
`
`Loren Terveen, Ph.D.
`
`September 13, 2022
`
`Volume |
`
`Apple Inc.
`
`vs.
`
`MemoryWeb, LLC
`
`© aetu
`URT US.
`
`www.aptusCR.com | 866.999.8310
`
`MemoryWebEx. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb — IPR2022-00032
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 1
`
`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · vs.· · · · ·) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`10· ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`11· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · )
`· · ·________________________ )
`12
`13· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`14· · · · · · · · · ·LOREN TERVEEN, PH.D.
`· · · · · · · ·________________________________
`15
`16· · · · · · · · · Volume I· (Pages 1-241)
`17
`18· ·Date:· ·Tuesday, September 13, 2022
`19· ·Time:· ·9:04 a.m. CST
`20· ·Reporter:· Renee Combs Quinby, RDR, CRR, CSR IL, CSR
`21· ·MO, CSR CA #11867
`22· ·Job No.: 10107154
`23
`24
`25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`Page 3
`
`·3
`
`·4· ·EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHWARTZ .......................5
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 1003 Declaration of Dr. Loren G.· · · · · 10
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·Terveen
`
`·8· ·Exhibit 1005 Aperture 3 User Manual· · · · · · · ·13
`
`·9· ·Exhibit 2021 OSXHIGuidelines.pdf, with· · · · · · 19
`
`10· · · · · · · ·"Apple Human Interface
`
`11· · · · · · · ·Guidelines User Experience" on
`
`12· · · · · · · ·the first page
`
`13· ·Exhibit 2022 book entitled, "The Essential· · · · 47
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Guide to User Interface Design"
`
`15· ·(The original exhibits were provided to the court
`
`16· ·reporter electronically to be attached to the
`
`17· ·original and copies of the transcript.)
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
`·2
`·3· ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·4
`· · · · · Kyle Smith, Esq. (remotely)
`·5· · · · Jeffrey P. Kushan, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Sidley Austin, LLP
`·6· · · · 1501 K Street, #600
`· · · · · Washington, D.C.· 20005
`·7· · · · (202)736-8914
`· · · · · kyle.smith@sidley.com
`·8· · · · jkushan@sidley.com
`·9
`10· ·and
`11· · · · Riana J. Freedman, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Sidley Austin, LLP
`12· · · · 787 7th Avenue
`· · · · · New York, NY· 10019
`13· · · · (212)839-5300
`· · · · · rfreedman@sidley.com
`14
`15
`16· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`17· · · · Daniel J. Schwartz, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Nixon Peabody LLP
`18· · · · 70 W. Madison Street, Suite 5200
`· · · · · Chicago, IL· 60602
`19· · · · (312)977-4400
`· · · · · dschwartz@nixonpeabody.com
`20
`21
`22· ·APTUS MONITOR:· Chris Landrum (remotely)
`23
`24
`25
`
`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · vs.· · · · ·) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`10· ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`11· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · )
`· · ·________________________ )
`12
`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`14· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF LOREN
`15· ·TERVEEN, PH.D., produced, sworn, and examined on
`16· ·Tuesday, September 13, 2022, with the witness
`17· ·appearing via videoconference from Washington, D.C.,
`18· ·taken on behalf of the Patent Owner, before RENEE
`19· ·COMBS QUINBY, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
`20· ·Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand
`21· ·Reporter for the State of Illinois, Certified
`22· ·Shorthand Reporter for the State of California,
`23· ·Certified Court Reporter for the State of Missouri,
`24· ·and a Realtime Systems Administrator.
`25
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 5
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`·2· · · · · · ·IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
`·3· ·between counsel for the Patent Owner and counsel for
`·4· ·the Petitioner that this deposition may be taken in
`·5· ·machine shorthand by RENEE QUINBY, RDR, CRR,
`·6· ·Certified Court Reporter, and Certified Shorthand
`·7· ·Reporter, and afterwards transcribed into
`·8· ·typewriting.
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`10· · · · · · · · · ·LOREN TERVEEN, PH.D.,
`11· ·of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to
`12· ·testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
`13· ·but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and
`14· ·says in reply to oral interrogatories propounded as
`15· ·follows, to-wit:
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`17· · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S· ·9:04 a.m. CST
`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`19· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Professor Terveen.
`21· ·Again, just for the record, it's Professor Terveen;
`22· ·is that okay?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· Thank you.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm Dan Schwartz of Nixon Peabody.· I'm
`25· ·in Chicago.· I represent MemoryWeb in connection
`
`Page 7
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it does.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·And also I appreciate the fact that you
`·3· ·both nodded and said "yes, it does," because as you
`·4· ·know, our wonderful court reporter is only taking
`·5· ·down the words that we speak and not the gestures or
`·6· ·"uh-huhs" and "uh-uhs" that we all will fall prey
`·7· ·to, including myself.· So I may remind you to keep
`·8· ·the response audible.
`·9· · · · · · · · The only other kind of rules for the
`10· ·road that I'll throw out there that -- try to allow
`11· ·me to finish my question before answering it such
`12· ·that the court reporter cannot have people speaking
`13· ·over each other.· It makes for a cleaner transcript.
`14· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· That makes sense.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And we'll go for about an hour or an
`17· ·hour and a half in between breaks, but if for any
`18· ·reason you need to take a break, I may finish up a
`19· ·series of questions, but just let me know and we'll
`20· ·try and accommodate you if you need a comfort or
`21· ·restroom break or something like that.
`22· · · · · · · · Does that work?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· Yes, that works.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Good.
`25· · · · · · · · So first off, where are you this
`
`Page 6
`·1· ·with these patent office proceedings, including the
`·2· ·four that you have issued declarations in.
`·3· · · · · · · · Have you had your deposition taken
`·4· ·before?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you've had your deposition taken
`·7· ·before in PTAB proceedings; is that right?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·So you're familiar with how this is
`10· ·going to go, but I'll give a couple of background
`11· ·rules for the road and make sure that we're all on
`12· ·the same page going forward.
`13· · · · · · · · I'll ask you a series of questions.
`14· ·You'll give me a series of answers.· From time to
`15· ·time your counsel may interpose an objection, and
`16· ·other than an objection that instructs you not to
`17· ·answer on attorney-client privilege grounds, you'll
`18· ·still have to answer the question to the best of
`19· ·your ability.
`20· · · · · · · · I will try and make the questions as
`21· ·clear as I can.· And if you have any questions or
`22· ·need any clarification, just let me know.
`23· ·Otherwise, I'll assume that you understand the
`24· ·question.
`25· · · · · · · · Is that fair and make sense?
`
`Page 8
`
`·1· ·morning, Professor Terveen?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm in a Sidley Austin conference room
`·3· ·in Washington, D.C.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And who is in the room with you?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Kyle Smith.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·Is Mr. Smith the only person in the
`·7· ·room with you?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in terms of the technology
`10· ·setup, just so I understand what you have there, can
`11· ·you describe your interface, your format for how
`12· ·you're experiencing this Zoom?· Are we on a big
`13· ·screen at the end of the room?· Do you have
`14· ·monitors, that kind of thing?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· You are on a big screen at the
`16· ·end of the room, and I have a laptop and a large
`17· ·monitor here to help myself if I want to look at
`18· ·PDFs of any of the exhibits that you introduce.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·On any of the screens that you have
`20· ·there, is anything else open such as any messaging
`21· ·apps or email or any other applications?
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you don't have your phone on or
`24· ·with you at the present time?
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·My phone is with me.· It's in airplane
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 9
`
`·1· ·mode.· I did that right away, yeah.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Perfect.· Thank you.
`·3· · · · · · · · And is there anything about your
`·4· ·present state of being that would prevent you from
`·5· ·testifying truthfully and honestly in this
`·6· ·proceeding?
`·7· · · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't think so.
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·We sent a link to your counsel about a
`·9· ·half an hour or so ago that contained a set of
`10· ·exhibits.· Have you received that?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I received that, and I downloaded
`12· ·the exhibits.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Good.
`14· · · · · · · · And you'll have the ability to open up
`15· ·an exhibit and put it on a screen in front of you
`16· ·while keeping the screen that I'm on and the Zoom is
`17· ·on up and available to you?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I will.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Good.· All right.· All right.
`20· ·Give me a second to get myself organized.· All
`21· ·right.
`22· · · · · · · · A little bit more just groundwork
`23· ·because there are four different proceedings here.
`24· ·And you have authored declarations in each of the
`25· ·four.· Professor Terveen, you've authored and
`
`Page 10
`·1· ·offered declarations in a PGR proceeding relating to
`·2· ·MemoryWeb's U.S. Patent 11,017,020; is that right?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And just so we can do this on
`·5· ·the record, I'm going to ask you in the box that was
`·6· ·sent to you to open up, Exhibit 1003, the
`·7· ·Declaration of Dr. Loren G. Terveen, PGR2022-006.
`·8· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1003 was
`·9· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
`10· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Okay.· I've opened
`11· ·that.
`12· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is a copy of your declaration
`14· ·in the '020 PGR; is that right?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I think so.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you'll see down in the bottom
`17· ·right-hand corner of the first page it says
`18· ·Exhibit 1003?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yes, Exhibit 1003, cover, yeah.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.· Thank you.
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.
`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm going to bring up each of the
`23· ·other ones which are also labeled Exhibit 1003
`24· ·because they're 1003 in each of them, and I'm just
`25· ·going to go through a little naming convention so
`
`Page 11
`
`·1· ·we're all on the same page.
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you'll bring up the -- from the box
`·4· ·what's also labeled Exhibit 1003, Declaration of
`·5· ·Loren G. Terveen, IPR2022-00033.
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I see it.· Okay.· I've brought
`·7· ·that up.
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm guessing that what's on your
`·9· ·screen is the cover page for your declaration in the
`10· ·'658 IPR proceeding?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·And that's a 173-page document?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·Next I'll ask you to open up
`15· ·Exhibit 1003, Declaration of Loren G. Terveen,
`16· ·IPR2022-00032, which is the declaration in the '376
`17· ·proceeding.
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I've opened that up.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is a copy of your declaration
`20· ·of the '376 IPR proceeding, correct?
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this one has 169 pages?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then finally is your declaration,
`25· ·Exhibit 1003, Declaration of Dr. Loren G. Terveen,
`
`Page 12
`·1· ·IPR2022-00031, and this is the declaration in the
`·2· ·'228 proceeding; is that right?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this one says it's 151 pages.
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·I will endeavor throughout the next day
`·7· ·or so to properly refer to the one that I am talking
`·8· ·about, and I will refer to them, if it is okay with
`·9· ·you as, you know, either Exhibit 1003 or 1,003 in
`10· ·the '020 proceeding, and that will refer to the PGR
`11· ·'020 proceeding declaration.
`12· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that makes sense.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·And similarly if I'm referring to one
`15· ·of the other ones, I will identify it by the patent
`16· ·that it relates to and/or the proceeding that it's
`17· ·in.
`18· · · · · · · · Is that fair?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I have my trusty colleague with me
`21· ·that if I forget and it's unclear which one, he may
`22· ·throw something at me, so if you see that on the
`23· ·screen, you know, I'll -- I'll, you know, be sure to
`24· ·properly identify which one we're talking about.
`25· · · · · · · · But that's the way I'm going to operate
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 13
`·1· ·today even if -- because we have four Exhibit 1003s.
`·2· · · · · · · · Is that fair?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· That makes sense.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And then if you will go
`·5· ·back into the link that was sent, there is a
`·6· ·document labeled Exhibit 1005, A3UM-HTML.
`·7· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1005 was
`·8· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay, yes, I opened that.
`10· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is the version of the
`12· ·Aperture 3 User Manual that you relied on in
`13· ·connection with your declaration; is that correct?
`14· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·And actually I'll -- let me ask that
`16· ·further.· It's the version of the Aperture 3 User
`17· ·Manual that you relied on in all four of your
`18· ·declarations, correct?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·And Exhibit -- in each of the four
`21· ·proceedings, this exhibit was labeled as 1005, and I
`22· ·just want to confirm with you that there are no
`23· ·differences between the versions that you attached
`24· ·in any -- no differences in Exhibit 1005, the
`25· ·Aperture 3 User Manual HTML version in any of your
`
`Page 14
`
`·1· ·four declarations?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I'm aware of, no.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·When you prepared your declarations you
`·4· ·intended for that version of the user manual to be
`·5· ·the same in each of the four declarations, correct?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So throughout the
`·8· ·day, I may refer to that as "Exhibit 1005" or "the
`·9· ·user manual," and that will apply to the document as
`10· ·it relates to any of the four proceedings.
`11· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`12· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that makes sense.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Good.· Thank you, Professor
`14· ·Terveen.
`15· · · · · · · · Just a couple of quick questions.· What
`16· ·did you do to prepare for your deposition today?
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I reviewed the -- I reviewed my
`18· ·declarations and the patents.· I spoke with the
`19· ·attorneys from Sidley Austin.· Yeah.· I think that's
`20· ·pretty much what I did, yeah.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And how long did you spend with the
`22· ·attorneys at Sidley and Austin?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, let's see.· I probably had four
`24· ·or five teleconferences, maybe an hour or two each,
`25· ·and then -- let's see.· This Sunday I spent a couple
`
`Page 15
`·1· ·hours, and I think I spent about three or four hours
`·2· ·yesterday in person.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did you spend
`·4· ·reviewing your declarations and the patents and
`·5· ·related materials?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Boy, I don't know.· There's four
`·7· ·patents and, you know, I guess about 600 pages of
`·8· ·declarations, so I don't know.· You know, 20 to 30
`·9· ·hours maybe.· Yeah.· I'm just guessing.
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· That's -- that's fair.· Okay.
`11· · · · · · · · Did you review any materials in
`12· ·addition to those that are listed in the "Materials
`13· ·Considered" sections of your declarations?
`14· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· I caution the witness not
`15· ·to reveal the substance of any privileged
`16· ·conversations or attorney work product.
`17· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Could you
`18· ·just ask that again?· I want to make sure I answer
`19· ·what you're after.
`20· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· I'm asking whether you reviewed
`22· ·any materials in preparation for your deposition
`23· ·today that were not listed in the "Materials
`24· ·Considered" portion of your four declarations.
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I recall, no.
`
`Page 16
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· For ease of reference, I'm going
`·2· ·to ask you to open up the '020 declaration of yours,
`·3· ·which is Exhibit 1003 in the '020 proceeding.
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·And this is my declaration in the PGR?
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've got it open.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·Gotcha.· And on page romanette v
`·8· ·there's a list of exhibits considered starting on
`·9· ·page romanette v, sorry.
`10· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I see that.
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And it extends to romanette vii.
`12· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·And it lists a few dozen documents.
`15· ·Are these all of the materials that you reviewed in
`16· ·connection with preparing your declaration for the
`17· ·'020 PGR proceeding?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, I -- I may have looked at some
`19· ·other documents, but these are the ones that I would
`20· ·rely on for the opinions that I expressed here.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any specific recollection
`22· ·of what those other documents may have been?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·No.· No.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·The documents that are in this list,
`25· ·did you find them -- how did you come across these
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 17
`
`·1· ·documents?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Let me look through those.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·Fair.
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I believe in most cases, they
`·5· ·were provided to me by the attorneys I was working
`·6· ·with.· I think there's a few cases where I was
`·7· ·already familiar with them, like, you know,
`·8· ·there's -- there's a reference to the Flickr tour,
`·9· ·and I certainly, you know, was familiar with Flickr.
`10· · · · · · · · What else?· Like the Wikipedia entry
`11· ·for photo sharing and the image organizer.· I can't
`12· ·recall if I had seen those before.· It's possible.
`13· ·But in most cases, they were provided to me by the
`14· ·Sidley Austin attorneys.
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you ask for these specific
`16· ·documents or did you ask for these specific
`17· ·documents from Sidley and Austin or were they
`18· ·provided to you by Sidley and Austin?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·I think they were provided to me by
`20· ·Sidley Austin.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·As you were preparing your declaration
`22· ·in the '020, did you ask them for any additional
`23· ·information that may have been helpful to your
`24· ·opinions?
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·Could you ask that question again,
`
`Page 18
`
`·1· ·please?
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· As you were preparing your
`·3· ·declaration for the '020 PGR, did you ask the
`·4· ·counsel at Sidley and Austin for any additional
`·5· ·information that had not already been provided that
`·6· ·may have been helpful to preparing your opinions?
`·7· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Again, I caution the
`·8· ·witness not to reveal the substance of any
`·9· ·privileged conversations or attorney work product.
`10· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't recall that I
`11· ·asked for any additional information.
`12· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·And is that also true of the opinions
`14· ·in the other three declarations as well, that you
`15· ·did not ask for additional information from counsel
`16· ·that may be helpful in rendering your opinions?
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·You know, I don't recall.· There was a
`18· ·lot of back and forth between us as I was preparing
`19· ·my declarations, and there may have been times where
`20· ·I've said, you know -- you know, I'd like some
`21· ·clarification about this, but I -- yeah, I mean, I
`22· ·guess I wrote those declarations over a year ago or
`23· ·whatever it was, so I really don't recall those
`24· ·details.
`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ask -- did you
`
`Page 19
`
`·1· ·review -- strike that.
`·2· · · · · · · · Did you review any documents authored
`·3· ·by Apple as it relates to developing applications
`·4· ·for their user interfaces?
`·5· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Same caution regarding
`·6· ·privilege.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Let me look through the
`·8· ·exhibits I have listed here and I'll see what I have
`·9· ·here.· And of course, you know, as I said before, I
`10· ·might have looked at things that I didn't then rely
`11· ·on for my opinions.
`12· · · · · · · · Well, I certainly listed some Apple
`13· ·documents that I relied on in this list of exhibits.
`14· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·Outside of that, you did not request
`16· ·any other documents authored by Apple as it related
`17· ·to applications using Apple's interface?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I recall, yeah.· I don't know
`19· ·one way or the other.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Why don't we do this?· If you could go
`21· ·into the box and open what is premarked as
`22· ·Exhibit 2021 with the name OSXHIGuideline --
`23· ·Guidelines.pdf.
`24· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 2021 was
`25· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
`
`Page 20
`
`·1· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you see that?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· I don't -- I've got Exhibit 1021
`·4· ·open, but I didn't see --
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·2021?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·2021.· Sorry about that.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·No worries.· This is the fun of being
`·8· ·in multiple offices.
`·9· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've got it open.
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·And just to be sure that we're on the
`11· ·same page, you have open in front of you what's been
`12· ·marked as Exhibit 2021, OSXHIGuidelines.pdf, and the
`13· ·first page says, "Apple Human Interface Guidelines
`14· ·User Experience"; is that correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·That is correct.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then at the bottom of the first
`17· ·page there is an Apple logo with the date of
`18· ·August 20th, 2009.
`19· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`20· · · · · ·A.· ·I do.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And on the second page of the document
`22· ·there is copyright information showing that Apple is
`23· ·the author and copyright owner of this with a latest
`24· ·copyright date of 2009 to Apple Inc.
`25· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 21
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·You didn't review this document in
`·3· ·connection with your opinions in the four matters
`·4· ·we're discussing here today, correct?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·No, I did not review this document.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever seen this document
`·7· ·before?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·You know, I've looked at Apple Human
`·9· ·Interface Guidelines in the past.· It might have
`10· ·been an older version of this, but, you know, that's
`11· ·one of those things I'm not really sure of the
`12· ·answer.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·So you know documents like this exist,
`14· ·correct?
`15· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`16· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I guess what I
`17· ·know in general is that, you know, companies like
`18· ·Apple and Microsoft and Google have interface
`19· ·guidelines.
`20· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And so you knew that Apple had
`22· ·interface guidelines in and around the August 2009
`23· ·time frame; is that right, Professor Terveen?
`24· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`25· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I guess I would say it
`
`Page 22
`
`·1· ·seems plausible to me that they did.
`·2· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·You did not ask anyone for any
`·4· ·documents from Apple or Microsoft or Google who may
`·5· ·have interface guidelines to see those documents as
`·6· ·they existed at or before the priority dates in
`·7· ·these proceedings; is that right?
`·8· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think I answered before
`10· ·about, you know, had I asked for any documents
`11· ·from -- from the attorneys, and I think I did not
`12· ·ask for any in particular, so that still applies
`13· ·here as well.
`14· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·There was nothing stopping you from
`16· ·asking counsel for these types of documents; is that
`17· ·correct?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·No, not -- nothing stopped me from
`19· ·asking counsel.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Let's take a look at this -- well, let
`21· ·me ask a background question.
`22· · · · · · · · You said you were familiar that
`23· ·entities like Apple and Microsoft and Google had
`24· ·guidelines for their interfaces.· I'm not trying to
`25· ·put words in your mouth, Professor Terveen.· I just
`
`Page 23
`·1· ·want to reorient you.· You're familiar with those
`·2· ·general sets of documents?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm familiar that the companies like
`·4· ·that who provide -- provide systems with user
`·5· ·interfaces do have guidelines.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·When you've ever seen those documents,
`·7· ·did you ever find anything to be wrong in them?
`·8· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I'm not sure if
`10· ·I've ever found errors.· Sometimes there could be
`11· ·things that are a matter of opinion or best
`12· ·practices that people could disagree with, and
`13· ·sometimes they might have errors that slipped in,
`14· ·so --
`15· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·As we're sitting here today, you don't
`17· ·recall any of those specifically, correct?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I don't recall specifically, no.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you will flip with me to -- it's
`20· ·page 19 of the PDF.· Oh, it is also page 19 of the
`21· ·document in Exhibit 2021.
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've flipped there.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the headline says,
`24· ·"Introduction to Apple Human Interface Guidelines."
`25· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`Page 24
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·And again -- and at the bottom of the
`·3· ·page it says -- there's a question that says, "What
`·4· ·Are the Apple Human Interface Guidelines?"
`·5· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I see that.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then the next sentence says, "This
`·8· ·document is the primary user interface documentation
`·9· ·for Mac OS X."
`10· · · · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Mac OS X is the operating
`13· ·system on which you -- on which your opinions rely
`14· ·on in using the Aperture 3 system, correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it was a specific version or
`16· ·subversion or whatever, but, yes, that's right.
`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.· And the next sentence says in
`18· ·the -- in the Exhibit 2021 with respect to the Apple
`19· ·Human Interface Guidelines, it says, quote:
`20· · · · · · · · · It provides specific details
`21· · · · · · · · · about designing for Aqua
`22· · · · · · · · · compliance in mass -- excuse
`23· · · · · · · · · me -- in Mac OS X version
`24· · · · · · · · · 10.6, although some of the
`25· · · · · · · · · information may apply to
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00032
`
`

`

`Page 25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · previous versions of Mac OS X.
`·2· · · · · · · · Correct?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's what it says.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And just for clarity, I'm going to ask
`·5· ·you to open up the '020 declaration, Exhibit 1003,
`·6· ·and flip to paragraph 75.
`·7· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'm doing that.· And you said
`·8· ·the '020, correct?
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.
`10· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I am -- I am there.
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you'll see in paragraph 75
`12· ·and 76 that you installed Aperture 3 using a Mac
`13· ·laptop operating Mac OS X software version 10.6.3,
`14· ·correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·That's -- that's correct, yes.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And back to Exhibit 2021, the Apple
`17· ·Human Interface Guidelines document, the guidelines
`18· ·for -- were specifically for the version of Mac OS X
`19· ·that you used in installing Aperture in rendering
`20· ·your opinions in these matters, correct?
`21· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`22· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I'm sorry, that
`23· ·was -- got a little -- maybe a little too many
`24· ·clauses in there.· Could you rephrase that for me?
`25
`
`Page 26
`
`·1· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Fair enough.· And I will break that
`·3· ·down.
`·4· · · · · · · · The guidelines, the human interface
`·5· ·guidelines in Exhibit 2021, cover the version of Mac
`·6· ·OS X that you used in installing Aperture 3 in
`·7· ·connection with your opinions in these four matters?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·The -- right.· The version of the human
`·9· ·interface guidelines that you have here in
`10· ·Exhibit 2021 applies to -- it says, "Mac OS X
`11· ·Version 10.6," and that is the version of -- of Mac
`12· ·OS X that was on the laptop on which I installed
`13· ·Aperture.· That's -- that's correct.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you, Professor Terveen.· Give me
`15· ·one second.· I'm trying to locate -- apologies,
`16· ·Professor Terveen.· I'm having a technical issue
`17· ·with my document.
`18· · · · · · · · On the next page of Exhibit 2021, which
`19· ·is page 20, it says under the heading, "Who Should
`20· ·Read This Document?"
`21· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·I see that heading, yes.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·It says, quote:
`24· · · · · · · · · Anyone building applications
`25· · · · · · · · · for Mac OS X should read and
`
`Page 27
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · become familiar with the
`·2· · · · · · · · · contents of this document.
`·3· · · · · · · · · This document combines
`·4· · · · · · · · · information on the mechanics
`·5· · · · · · · · · of designing a great user
`·6· · · · · · · · · interface with fundamental
`·7· · · · · · · · · software design principles and
`·8· · · · · · · · · information on leveraging Mac
`·9· · · · · · · · · OS X technologies.
`10· · · · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·You did read that correctly.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·And so you would understand that this
`13· ·document would relate to designing user interfaces
`14· ·for applications such as Aperture 3, correct?
`15· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Scope.
`16· ·Foundation.
`17· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean, I -- I see
`18· ·what it says and I believe the people who wrote this
`19· ·believe that, that if you're building applications
`20· ·on Mac OS X that this document would have
`21· ·information that would be relevant to that.
`22· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·And the people who wrote this were
`24· ·Apple, correct?
`25· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Foundation.
`
`Page 28
`
`·1· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry, I didn't quite
`·2· ·hear what you asked, that last question.
`·3· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·The people who wrote this are Apple,
`·5· ·correct?
`·6· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Same objection.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I don't -- I
`·8· ·don't know who wrote it, but presumably Apple, you
`·9· ·know, commissioned the writing of it, even if it
`10· ·wasn't Apple employees, but, yeah.
`11· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, it's published by Apple and
`13· ·they're the copyright owner of this, correct?
`14· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Foundation.
`15· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Apple is the copyright
`16· ·holder.· You showed me that before.· Yeah.
`17· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`18· · · · · ·Q.· ·You have no reason to believe that this
`19· ·wasn't published and prepared by Apple, do you?
`20· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`21· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have any
`22· ·knowledge about that or -- yeah.
`23· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you'll flip to page 23 of
`25· ·Exhibit 2021.
`
`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple

This document is available on Docket Alarm but you must sign up to view it.


Or .

Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.

After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.

Accept $ Charge
throbber

Still Working On It

This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.

Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.

throbber

A few More Minutes ... Still Working

It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.

Thank you for your continued patience.

This document could not be displayed.

We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.

Your account does not support viewing this document.

Set your membership status to view this document.

With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll get a whole lot more, including:

  • Up-to-date information for this case.
  • Email alerts whenever there is an update.
  • Full text search for other cases.
  • Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.

Become a Member

One Moment Please

The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.

Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.

Your document is on its way!

If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.

Sealed Document

We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.

If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.


Access Government Site

We are redirecting you
to a mobile optimized page.





Document Unreadable or Corrupt

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket

We are unable to display this document.

Refresh this Document
Go to the Docket