· · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · ------------------------------------------X
`· · · APPLE, INC.,
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·
`· · · · · · · · -against-
`·
`· · · MEMORYWEB, LLC,
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`·
`· · · Case Nos. PGR2022-00006
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00031
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00032
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00033
`· · · ------------------------------------------X
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DATE: December 1, 2022
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·TIME: 9:30 A.M.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1
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`·
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`· · · · · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION of RAJEEV
`
`· · · SURATI, Ph.D., taken by the Petitioner,
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`· · · held remotely via Zoom Videoconference,
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`· · · before Suzanne Pastor, a Notary Public of
`
`· · · the State of New York.
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0001
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 1
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`· · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · ------------------------------------------X
`· · · APPLE, INC.,
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·
`· · · · · · · · -against-
`·
`· · · MEMORYWEB, LLC,
`·
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`·
`· · · Case Nos. PGR2022-00006
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00031
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00032
`· · · · · · · · IPR2022-00033
`· · · ------------------------------------------X
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DATE: December 1, 2022
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·TIME: 9:30 A.M.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME 1
`
`·
`
`· · · · · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION of RAJEEV
`
`· · · SURATI, Ph.D., taken by the Petitioner,
`
`· · · held remotely via Zoom Videoconference,
`
`· · · before Suzanne Pastor, a Notary Public of
`
`· · · the State of New York.
`
`·
`
`·
`
`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`·
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`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0001
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 1
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · A P P E A R A N C E S:
`· · · (All appearances via Zoom)
`·2
`
`·3· · SIDLEY AUSTIN, LLP
`· · · · Attorneys for the Petitioner
`·4· · · APPLE, INC.
`· · · · 1501 K Street, N.W., Suite 600
`·5· · · Washington, D.C.· 20005
`· · · · BY: JEFFREY P. KUSHAN, ESQ.
`·6· · · 202.736.8914
`· · · · jkushan@sidley.com
`·7· · · AND:CHRISTINE REID, ESQ.
`· · · · creid@sidley.com
`·8
`
`·9· · NIXON PEABODY
`· · · · Attorneys for the Patent Owner
`10· · · MEMORYWEB, LLC
`· · · · 70 West Madison Street, Suite 5200
`11· · · Chicago, Illinois 60602
`· · · · BY: DANIEL J. SCHWARTZ, ESQ.
`12· · · 312.977.4432
`· · · · djschwartz@nixonpeabody.com
`13
`
`14
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`15
`
`16
`
`17· · · · · · · *· · · · *· · · ·*
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`18
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`19
`
`20
`
`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0002
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 2
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Good morning.
`
`·2· · · · · The attorneys participating in this
`
`·3· · · · · deposition acknowledge that I am not
`
`·4· · · · · physically present in the deposition
`
`·5· · · · · room and that I will be reporting
`
`·6· · · · · this deposition remotely.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·They further acknowledge that
`
`·8· · · · · in lieu of an oath administered in
`
`·9· · · · · person, I will place the witness
`
`10· · · · · under penalty of perjury.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·The parties and their counsel
`
`12· · · · · consent to this arrangement and waive
`
`13· · · · · any objections to this manner of
`
`14· · · · · reporting.· Please indicate your
`
`15· · · · · agreement by stating your name and
`
`16· · · · · your agreement on the record.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. KUSHAN:· Jeff Kushan from
`
`18· · · · · Sidley Austin.· We agree.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Dan Schwartz
`
`20· · · · · from Nixon Peabody, we agree.
`
`21· · R A J E E V· · S U R A T I, called as a
`
`22· · witness, having been first duly sworn by a
`
`23· · Notary Public of the State of New York, was
`
`24· · examined and testified as follows:
`
`25· · · · · · · ·MR. KUSHAN:· Thank you.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0003
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 3
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · EXAMINATION
`
`·2· · BY MR. KUSHAN:
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Dr. Surati, could you state
`
`·4· · your name for the record.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · My name is Rajeev Surati.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · And what is your current
`
`·7· · position?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I am president of Skyline and
`
`·9· · Nav AI, and I am also president of
`
`10· · Computation and Imaging.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · Have you been deposed before?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · Yes, sir.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · How many times?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · Somewhere between 20 and 30, or
`
`15· · maybe more than 30.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · So you're familiar with the
`
`17· · procedures used in depositions generally?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · Generally I would say so.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Okay, I'll just kind of go over
`
`20· · a few points.· As you know, I'll be asking
`
`21· · you questions.· Your counsel may raise
`
`22· · objections.· Once the objection is
`
`23· · complete, you can proceed to answer my
`
`24· · question.· The only time where you won't
`
`25· · respond to my question is if your counsel
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0004
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 4
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · directs you not to answer my question
`
`·2· · because of a claim of privilege.· And that
`
`·3· · should be unusual.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·If you have any questions about
`
`·5· · my question, if you want me to recast it,
`
`·6· · let me know.· If there's anything you don't
`
`·7· · understand about my question, let me know
`
`·8· · and I'll try to give you a better question.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·If at any point in this
`
`10· · process, if you need a break, just let me
`
`11· · know and we'll take the break as promptly
`
`12· · as we can at that moment.· Obviously we'll
`
`13· · break if I have a question pending, but
`
`14· · just let me know when you need a break and
`
`15· · we can take the break.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Is there any reason you cannot
`
`17· · offer truthful testimony today?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · There's no reason I cannot
`
`19· · offer truthful testimony today.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Great.· No medical issues that
`
`21· · would impair your ability to answer
`
`22· · questions truthfully and accurately today?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · No, no medical issues.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And you understand that you're
`
`25· · under oath or under affirmation in this
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0005
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 5
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · proceeding?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I understand I'm under oath and
`
`·3· · affirmation.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · And so you understand that you
`
`·5· · must provide answers that are truthful and
`
`·6· · based on your knowledge, correct?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · Yes, I must provide answers
`
`·8· · that are truthful and based on my
`
`·9· · knowledge.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Surati
`
`11· · · · · Declarations, 00006 (Preliminary
`
`12· · · · · Response ('020); 00031 and 00033
`
`13· · · · · ('228 and '658); 00032 (ISO
`
`14· · · · · Preliminary Response, '376) were
`
`15· · · · · marked as Surati Exhibit 2001 for
`
`16· · · · · identification as of this date by the
`
`17· · · · · Reporter.)
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · So you submitted four
`
`19· · declarations in four proceedings that are
`
`20· · the subject of the deposition today.· Do
`
`21· · you understand that?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · I understand that I submitted
`
`23· · four reports, yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · Before I introduce those, can
`
`25· · you tell me, when were you retained by
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0006
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 6
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · counsel --
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Oh, boy.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · -- for these proceedings.
`
`·4· · Sorry, for these proceedings.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · Oh, boy.· I believe I was
`
`·6· · retained with the IPR matter in the last
`
`·7· · year.· But honestly, I can't remember -- I
`
`·8· · can remember that I worked on some
`
`·9· · preliminary report issues and then a report
`
`10· · based on the petition being submitted and
`
`11· · so on and so forth.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · So were you retained after the
`
`13· · petitions had been submitted?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · I think I may have been.· But
`
`15· · honestly, I couldn't tell you off the top
`
`16· · of my head.· I've been involved in so many
`
`17· · different things.· I could look it up I'm
`
`18· · sure, but I'm not sure.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Can you give me a rough
`
`20· · estimate of the amount of time, how many
`
`21· · hours you've spent working on the
`
`22· · declarations that you filed in these
`
`23· · proceedings?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · I'm guessing somewhere around
`
`25· · 70 or 80 hours.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0007
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 7
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Okay, and what is the billing
`
`·2· · rate you typically -- that you're charging
`
`·3· · counsel for the work you're doing in this
`
`·4· · case?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · I believe I'm getting something
`
`·6· · like $500.· It's in my report I think.· I'm
`
`·7· · pretty sure.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · When you were retained to
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`·9· · prepare the declarations, can you tell me
`
`10· · generally what you were asked to do?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Sure.· I was asked to opine on
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`12· · the -- sorry, to opine on the declaration
`
`13· · of Dr. Terveen and look at his arguments
`
`14· · and see if there's anything that I
`
`15· · disagreed with.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Were there any specific issues
`
`17· · you were asked to address in his
`
`18· · declarations?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · I mean, I had to look at them
`
`20· · and read them and there were things that
`
`21· · didn't seem like they were true.· And then
`
`22· · there were things that I disagreed with.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·So I went through each report
`
`24· · and provided what -- provided the best
`
`25· · arguments I could that were contrary to his
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0008
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 8
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · opinions.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· · I noticed that in your
`
`·3· · declarations you have identified some
`
`·4· · materials that were not presented by Dr.
`
`·5· · Terveen or not in the record.· Did you do
`
`·6· · any searching to locate information you
`
`·7· · thought would be relevant to the testimony
`
`·8· · you'd be providing in response to Dr.
`
`·9· · Terveen?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · I did.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · So you were -- did you
`
`12· · personally identify the documents that you
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`13· · have relied on that were not previously in
`
`14· · the record in your declarations?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · Some of them, not all of them.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · I wouldn't -- I'd have to look
`
`18· · at what's in the record versus what's not
`
`19· · in the record to tell you which and what.
`
`20· · But certainly we had a lot of discussions
`
`21· · about Eli, and we had to bring in some
`
`22· · documents of various -- some that I knew
`
`23· · about, some that existed in other places
`
`24· · that I knew about but someone else also
`
`25· · pointed to.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0009
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
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`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 9
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'll probably ask you
`
`·2· · this question in the context of specific
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`·3· · documents as we go through the day.· And
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`·4· · you can just let me know.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·So I'm going to do my first
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`·6· · technology challenge of moving some
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`·7· · exhibits into this folder.· So bear with
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`·8· · me.
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · All right, let's try it out.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · Are you seeing anything showing
`
`11· · up in the shared exhibits?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · It says "all files today," "my
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`13· · Box," "notes," "today's deposition." I
`
`14· · found "today's deposition" and --
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`15· · · · ·Q.· · All right, here we go.· Bear
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`16· · with me.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Are you seeing anything showing
`
`18· · up in "today's deposition" folder?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. KUSHAN:· Let's go off the
`
`20· · · · · record for a minute.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, an off-the-record
`
`22· · · · · discussion was held.)
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · What I want you to do, Dr.
`
`24· · Surati, is -- do you see four documents
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`25· · each for the proceedings labeled 31, 32, 33
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0010
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 10
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · and 0006?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I see 006, four documents. I
`
`·3· · see four documents for 32, I see three
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`·4· · documents that say 033, one that says 31
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`·5· · and 33.· There are no 31 documents.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · Okay, perfect.· So the 31
`
`·7· · should be showing up shortly.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Here we go.· So I've got three
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`·9· · 31 documents, three 33 documents, one 31/33
`
`10· · document, four 32 documents, and four 6
`
`11· · documents.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Perfect.· If you could look at
`
`13· · the ones that are labeled Exhibit 2025.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Surati Declarations
`
`15· · · · · 00006 ('020); 00031 ('228); 00032
`
`16· · · · · ('376); 00003 ('658) were marked as
`
`17· · · · · Surati Exhibit 2025 for
`
`18· · · · · identification as of this date by the
`
`19· · · · · Reporter.)
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · Uh-huh.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · There should be four of those,
`
`22· · or three of those.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · Yes.· There's 2025 -- yes, so
`
`24· · these are all the declarations, yup.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Perfect.· I just want you to
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0011
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 11
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · confirm, if you could take a look at those
`
`·2· · four exhibits, take a minute and just skim
`
`·3· · them.· I'm going to ask you just to confirm
`
`·4· · those are the declarations you filed in
`
`·5· · these proceedings.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·(The witness reviews the
`
`·8· · document.)
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · And these would be the second
`
`10· · declarations you filed in these four
`
`11· · proceedings.
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · So the 31 one appears to be
`
`13· · correct.· The 033 appears to be correct.
`
`14· · The 32 appears to be correct, and the 00006
`
`15· · appears to be legit.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · I'm going to go one by one.· So
`
`17· · the 0031 proceeding, Exhibit 2025, are
`
`18· · there any errors in your declaration in
`
`19· · that proceeding that you identified since
`
`20· · filing it?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · So I know that I saw something
`
`22· · in one of these documents that I'm having
`
`23· · trouble remembering that look like there
`
`24· · was a word exchanged.· But I can't remember
`
`25· · it off the top of my head.· And there may
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0012
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
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`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 12
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · have been a few typos, but I don't have
`
`·2· · anything that I think is particularly
`
`·3· · substantive.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· If we are discussing the
`
`·5· · passage of one of these documents, one of
`
`·6· · the four declarations that you filed that
`
`·7· · you associate with this point you just made
`
`·8· · about a potential error, just let me know
`
`·9· · so we can see where that error is.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · Okay.· Sure.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · But other than that, all of
`
`12· · these are -- you don't have any -- you've
`
`13· · not had any specific errors that change
`
`14· · your opinions that are reflected in these
`
`15· · four declarations?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · Not that I'm aware of.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · Now, all of the opinions that
`
`18· · you're expressing in these four
`
`19· · declarations are being presented from the
`
`20· · perspective of a person of ordinary skill,
`
`21· · correct?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · So --
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`24· · · · · form.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · Sorry.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0013
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
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`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 13
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·So in my report I discuss a
`
`·2· · person of ordinary skill in the art.· We
`
`·3· · can go to what that definition is.· But
`
`·4· · yeah, the intention is to provide these
`
`·5· · opinions based on the view of a person of
`
`·6· · ordinary skill in the art.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · In your first declaration, in
`
`·8· · the 2001 series, I believe you relied on
`
`·9· · the definition of the person of skill in
`
`10· · the art that Dr. Terveen had presented in
`
`11· · his declaration, is that right?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · So it appears that what he
`
`13· · suggested and what is in our report seem to
`
`14· · be the same.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · So both your opinions and his
`
`16· · opinions are about what a person of
`
`17· · ordinary skill in the art would have
`
`18· · believed are based on the same definition
`
`19· · of the person of ordinary skill in the art,
`
`20· · is that right?
`
`21· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`22· · · · · form.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · So I believe that's what Dr.
`
`24· · Terveen did, but that's his side.· But for
`
`25· · me, definitely that's true.· It would seem
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0014
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 14
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · to me that's what he said he did, so.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · Yeah, I'm actually -- a
`
`·3· · slightly different question.· What I'm
`
`·4· · wondering is, Dr. Terveen presented his
`
`·5· · description of what he believed were the
`
`·6· · education, training, experience of someone
`
`·7· · of ordinary skill in the art.· And then in
`
`·8· · your first declaration you referred to that
`
`·9· · you would use that definition of the skills
`
`10· · and training and education of the person of
`
`11· · skill in the art.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·And I just want to confirm, in
`
`13· · your second declaration you also used that
`
`14· · same definition of the education, training
`
`15· · and skills of a person skilled in the art
`
`16· · in forming your opinions.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`18· · · · · form.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · I believe I did.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Great.· Do you believe a person
`
`21· · of skill in the art would be familiar with
`
`22· · the Unix operating system?
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`24· · · · · form and scope.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · They might have heard of it,
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0015
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 15
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · but it's not necessarily the case that they
`
`·2· · would -- at that time would have been
`
`·3· · necessarily fluent in it.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Would they know how to use,
`
`·5· · like, perform file operations in Unix?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`·7· · · · · form.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Some perhaps, but not all.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · Would they know how to navigate
`
`10· · different directories by using Unix
`
`11· · commands?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Same objection.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · I think they could navigate
`
`14· · directories, sure.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · Would you believe that an end
`
`16· · user with no training in computer science
`
`17· · or electrical engineering or computer
`
`18· · engineering and no experience in developing
`
`19· · user interfaces would be a person of skill
`
`20· · in the art?
`
`21· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`22· · · · · form.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · Well, I analyzed the report
`
`24· · based on Dr. Terveen's definition.· I don't
`
`25· · know -- I think I could say that it's -- I
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
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`Page 0016
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 16
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · haven't spent a lot of time thinking about
`
`·2· · what the additional requirements would be.
`
`·3· · I just did the analysis based on what Dr.
`
`·4· · Terveen said was the person of ordinary
`
`·5· · skill in the art.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · I guess what I'm asking is, you
`
`·7· · would agree that a person of skill in the
`
`·8· · art would have familiarity with operating
`
`·9· · systems and how computer systems, computer
`
`10· · software is developed, the attributes of
`
`11· · software packages, et cetera?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · I'd say they'd probably know
`
`13· · perhaps one of the technologies.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · Do you know what the Internet
`
`15· · Archive is?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · I understand the Internet
`
`17· · Archive to be a large archive of documents
`
`18· · that have been gathered over time by this
`
`19· · guy named Brewster Kahle.· Maybe you can
`
`20· · tell me more.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · Sure.· Sure.· You've heard of
`
`22· · something called Wayback Machine maybe?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · I have.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And do you understand Wayback
`
`25· · Machine or the Internet Archive to function
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0017
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 17
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · by capturing publicly accessible web pages
`
`·2· · and storing them and then making them
`
`·3· · available to use at a later date?· Is that
`
`·4· · how you understand generally that system
`
`·5· · works?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · I do believe I've seen that
`
`·7· · used that way, yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · And a user can go and retrieve
`
`·9· · earlier versions of these web pages at
`
`10· · particular dates and time from the Internet
`
`11· · Archive, is that right?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · Yes, I've used the Internet
`
`13· · Archive for that purpose.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · Are you familiar with the URL
`
`15· · structure of a link that you retrieve from
`
`16· · the Internet Archive?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · The exact syntax, no, but I
`
`18· · think I've seen people have reference to
`
`19· · them.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Could you go to paragraph --
`
`21· · just logistically, if you want to just pick
`
`22· · the 228 -- sorry, the 0031 proceeding
`
`23· · version of Exhibit 2025, I'm going to be
`
`24· · using that as a default exhibit for your
`
`25· · declaration, unless I tell you to go to a
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0018
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 18
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · different one.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Okay, just a second here.· So
`
`·3· · you're asking the question -- oh.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Jeff, I'm sorry,
`
`·5· · · · · could you just say that again to make
`
`·6· · · · · sure I'm clear on the right one.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Sure.· I mostly it's logistic.
`
`·8· · I want to make sure we're looking at the
`
`·9· · same thing.· So when I ask you about your
`
`10· · declaration Exhibit 2025, you can just
`
`11· · assume I'm asking you to look at the one
`
`12· · that you filed in the 0031 proceeding.· If
`
`13· · I want you to look at a different one, I'll
`
`14· · tell you the other number --
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · Okay, the 2025 of the blah blah
`
`16· · blah blah proceeding.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · Exactly.
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · So you want me to look at the
`
`19· · 2025 of the 0031 proceeding.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Precisely.· I'd like you to go
`
`21· · to paragraph 149, which is at pages 69 to
`
`22· · 70.
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · So this reader details -- does
`
`24· · this thing let me do a search at all?· I'm
`
`25· · using the reader they provided.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0019
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 19
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Are you going -- let's go off
`
`·2· · the record for a minute.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, an off-the-record
`
`·4· · · · · discussion was held.)
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a short recess was
`
`·6· · · · · taken.)
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · You see there that you have
`
`·8· · cited to Exhibit 2017 which is a printout
`
`·9· · of a web page from the Internet Archive.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. KUSHAN:· Christine, can you
`
`12· · · · · put up 2017 on the screen.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Google Earth
`
`14· · · · · Maps/Public Icons was marked as
`
`15· · · · · Surati Exhibit 2017 for
`
`16· · · · · identification as of this date by the
`
`17· · · · · Reporter.)
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Do you recall if you retrieved
`
`19· · this Exhibit 2017 yourself?· This Internet
`
`20· · Archive printout?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · I don't believe I did, but I
`
`22· · certainly looked at it.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Do you have 2017 with you --
`
`24· · here we go.· You're going to see 2017 on
`
`25· · your screen in a second.· Can you see
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0020
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 20
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · the --
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Yes, this is the KML.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Great.· I just want to get
`
`·4· · oriented.· If you look at the top of the
`
`·5· · page, you see there is in the second line a
`
`·6· · URL that starts after the words "Wayback
`
`·7· · Machine."
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · Do you see that it generally
`
`10· · has three segments?· There's a prefix and
`
`11· · then there's a string of numbers, and then
`
`12· · there's a suffix in terms of the
`
`13· · organization of the URL?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · The first component is a
`
`16· · reference to the web archive maintained by
`
`17· · the Internet Archive, is that right?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · Yes.· Yes, sir.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · What's the string of numbers in
`
`20· · the middle?· What is that representing?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · Okay, so --
`
`22· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`23· · · · · form.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · Sorry.· After the "/web"?
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0021
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 21
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · So the string of numbers,
`
`·2· · you're asking me to read them or are you
`
`·3· · asking me to explain what it means?
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · I'm asking what do they mean.
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · So as I understand it, these
`
`·6· · have to do with when you click on the
`
`·7· · Internet Archive links and you search for a
`
`·8· · calendar date, it seems to use that as the
`
`·9· · CURL number as a way to kind of indicate
`
`10· · what the date was that it was taken on, and
`
`11· · perhaps the time.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · So that's like a date stamp of
`
`13· · the web pages being captured?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · I think that's what I recall.
`
`15· · I mean, I haven't looked at the specs, but
`
`16· · that seems to be what I remember seeing in
`
`17· · terms of trying to use such an Internet
`
`18· · Archive system.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · And then the web page is the
`
`20· · last segment of the URL; that's the web
`
`21· · page that was captured on that date and
`
`22· · time, right?
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`24· · · · · form and scope.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · As best I can recall and
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0022
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 22
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · remember, I think that's true.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · So this Exhibit 2017 was a web
`
`·3· · page that was captured by the Internet
`
`·4· · Archive on May 27th of 2012, right?
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`·6· · · · · form and scope.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · So ostensibly, yes.· I think it
`
`·8· · is, right.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · And you can tell that by
`
`10· · looking at the string of numbers which
`
`11· · gives you the year, month, date and then
`
`12· · time, right?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · I believe that's correct.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · If you go to your declaration
`
`15· · now, go to paragraph 151 of Exhibit 2025,
`
`16· · which is on page 71.· Are you there?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · 171?
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Paragraph 171 -- sorry, I
`
`19· · apologize, page 71, paragraph 151.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · Oh, okay.· "For at least these
`
`21· · reasons I disagree with petitioner and Dr.
`
`22· · Terveen's assertions that it would have
`
`23· · been obvious to modify A3UM with the
`
`24· · features in Belitz."· Is that what you're
`
`25· · talking about?
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0023
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 23
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Yes.· And so you're summarizing
`
`·2· · your opinions that are expressed in the
`
`·3· · previous couple of paragraphs that include
`
`·4· · paragraphs 149 and 150, right?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · That's correct.· Let me just
`
`·6· · see.· Let me double-check, actually.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·(The witness reviews the
`
`·8· · document.)
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·So I believe I'm summarizing
`
`10· · paragraphs 150, 149 through 118 maybe.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · Well, let me do this.· I want
`
`12· · to just focus on paragraph 149.
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · This is where you're citing
`
`15· · Exhibit 2017, correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · Okay, yes.· I just didn't want
`
`17· · to say something incorrect.· This is where
`
`18· · I'm summarizing -- I'm referring to Exhibit
`
`19· · 2017, yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · And you're using Exhibit 2017
`
`21· · to demonstrate what a person of skill in
`
`22· · the art would have known back at the date
`
`23· · of Exhibit 2017, correct?· Which was May of
`
`24· · 2012, right?
`
`25· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0024
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 24
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · form.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I'm using this particular
`
`·3· · Internet Archive printout as an example in
`
`·4· · this report.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · For what was known back in May
`
`·6· · of 2012, right?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · Let me just see here.· I think
`
`·9· · I'm trying to give an indication that this
`
`10· · is a document that a person of ordinary
`
`11· · skill in the art would have at least
`
`12· · understood to be known at that time.· And
`
`13· · potentially before that as well.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And the date of this Internet
`
`15· · Archive in Exhibit 2017 is later than June
`
`16· · of 2011, right?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · Yes, that's what I was trying
`
`18· · to say, was that this happens to be later
`
`19· · than 2011, but these kinds of technologies
`
`20· · existed before 2011.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · So you're comfortable using
`
`22· · this 2012 document to illustrate what was
`
`23· · known back in 2011 or before, is that
`
`24· · right?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · I think so --
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0025
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 25
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·MR. SCHWARTZ:· Objection to
`
`·2· · · · · form and scope.
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · Sorry.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·I think so.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · Let me ask you some very easy
`
`·6· · questions.· So you presently use a
`
`·7· · Macintosh computer, right?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I do generally, yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · Have you used Macintosh
`
`10· · computers for a long time?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · I would say that I have used
`
`12· · both Macs and PCs for a long time. I
`
`13· · switched to using Macs more -- what's a
`
`14· · good way to put it.· Because I worked for
`
`15· · Microsoft for many years I only used PCs
`
`16· · for a long time.· But I've used Macs since
`
`17· · 2010 let's say when I personally bought
`
`18· · one.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · So you had familiarity using a
`
`20· · Mac operating system, Mac OS X back in
`
`21· · 2010?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · Yeah, and I used them in -- I
`
`23· · did -- when I did work the first time at
`
`24· · Microsoft I used a Mac from, like, 1988.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Do you know what the web
`
`IPR2022-00031 / IPR2022-00032 / IPR2022-00033 / PGR2022-00006
`
`Page 0026
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1089, p. 26
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00032
`
`
`
`·1· · browser is that's distributed by Apple and
`
`·2· · used on Mac OS X?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · I believe it's Safari.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · And Safari is a web browser
`
`·5· · that can open HTML files, right?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · I think that's its intent, or
`
`·7· · one of its intents.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · Have you ever developed an
`
`·9· · application that runs on Macintosh
`
`10· · operating system?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · I believe I have, yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Do you recall what the name of
`
`13· · that application is?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · So I worked on developing an
`
`15· · app back in 1988 called Microsoft File, but
`
`16· · I was more involved with testing it than I
`
`17· · was anything else.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Did that run on Mac OS X?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · Oh, no.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · Have you ever developed
`
`21· · software that runs on Macintosh Operating
`
`22· · System X?· And there are a number of
`
`23· · i
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