·1· ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · ·PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2· ·------------------------------------------X
`· · ·APPLE INC.,
`·3
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·4
`· · · · · · · ·-against-· · · · Case No.:
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · IPR2002-00031
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 10,621,228
`· · ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`·8· ·------------------------------------------X
`· · · · · · · · · · DATE: September 26, 2023
`·9· · · · · · · · · TIME: 9:00 A.M. PST
`
`10
`
`11· · · · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of
`
`12· ·EUGENE LHYMN, taken by the Petitioner,
`
`13· ·pursuant to a notice, held remotely via
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`14· ·Zoom Videoconference, before Suzanne
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`15· ·Pastor, a Notary Public of the State of New
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`16· ·York.
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`17
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`18
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`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 1
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`· · ·PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2· ·------------------------------------------X
`· · ·APPLE INC.,
`·3
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`·4
`· · · · · · · ·-against-· · · · Case No.:
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · IPR2002-00031
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · U.S. Patent No.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 10,621,228
`· · ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,
`·7
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`·8· ·------------------------------------------X
`· · · · · · · · · · DATE: September 26, 2023
`·9· · · · · · · · · TIME: 9:00 A.M. PST
`
`10
`
`11· · · · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of
`
`12· ·EUGENE LHYMN, taken by the Petitioner,
`
`13· ·pursuant to a notice, held remotely via
`
`14· ·Zoom Videoconference, before Suzanne
`
`15· ·Pastor, a Notary Public of the State of New
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`16· ·York.
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`17
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`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 1
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
`· · ·(All appearances via Zoom)
`·2
`
`·3· ·GROOMBRIDGE, WU, BAUGHMAN & STONE, LLP
`· · ·Attorneys for the Petitioner
`·4· ·APPLE INC.
`· · · · · ·801 17th Street, N.W., Suite 1050
`·5· · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20006
`· · ·BY:· ·J. STEVEN BAUGHMAN, ESQ.
`·6· · · · ·202.505.5832
`· · · · · ·steve.baughman@groombridgewu.com
`·7
`· · · · · · · ·-and-
`·8
`· · ·SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP
`·9· · · · ·1501 K Street, N.W.
`· · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005
`10· ·BY:· ·MATTHEW MAHONEY, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·202.736.8164
`11· · · · ·mmahoney@sidley.com
`· · ·AND:· LEIF E. PETERSON, II, ESQ.
`12· · · · ·312.853.7190
`· · · · · ·leif.peterson@sidley.com
`13
`
`14
`· · ·NIXON PEABODY
`15· ·Attorneys for the Patent Owner
`· · ·MEMORYWEB
`16· · · · ·70 West Madison Street, Suite 5200
`· · · · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60602
`17· ·BY:· ·ANGELO J. CHRISTOPHER, ESQ.
`· · · · · ·312.977.4391
`18· · · · ·achristopher@nixonpeabody.com
`
`19
`
`20
`· · ·ALSO PRESENT:
`21
`· · · ·JEFF QUILICI, ESQ.
`22
`· · · ·RAISE AHMAD, ESQ., Apple Inc.
`23
`
`24· · · · · · ·*· · · · *· · · ·*
`
`25
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 2
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Good afternoon.
`
`·2· · · · ·The attorneys participating in this
`
`·3· · · · ·deposition acknowledge that I am not
`
`·4· · · · ·physically present in the deposition
`
`·5· · · · ·room and that I will be reporting
`
`·6· · · · ·this deposition remotely.
`
`·7· · · · · · · They further acknowledge that
`
`·8· · · · ·in lieu of an oath administered in
`
`·9· · · · ·person, I will place the witness
`
`10· · · · ·under penalty of perjury.
`
`11· · · · · · · The parties and their counsel
`
`12· · · · ·consent to this arrangement and waive
`
`13· · · · ·any objections to this manner of
`
`14· · · · ·reporting.· Please indicate your
`
`15· · · · ·agreement by stating your name and
`
`16· · · · ·your agreement on the record.
`
`17· · · · · · · MR. BAUGHMAN:· This is Steve
`
`18· · · · ·Baughman for Apple, Groombridge Wu
`
`19· · · · ·Baughman & Stone.· I'll give my
`
`20· · · · ·appearance if I may, Ms. Pastor, at
`
`21· · · · ·the same time.· We also have Matthew
`
`22· · · · ·Mahoney and Lief Peterson from
`
`23· · · · ·Sidley, and two client
`
`24· · · · ·representatives, Raisa Ahmad and Jeff
`
`25· · · · ·Quilici with us today.· Thank you.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 3
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·And we agree, yes, on behalf of
`
`·2· · · · ·Apple.
`
`·3· · · · · · · MR. CHRISTOPHER:· This is
`
`·4· · · · ·Angelo Christopher on behalf of
`
`·5· · · · ·patent owner MemoryWeb, we agree.
`
`·6· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· This is Eugene
`
`·7· · · · ·Lhymn on behalf of patent owner
`
`·8· · · · ·MemoryWeb, I agree.
`
`·9· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Mr. Lhymn,
`
`10· · · · ·please raise your right hand.
`
`11· · · · · · · Do you swear or affirm that the
`
`12· · · · ·testimony you are about to give will
`
`13· · · · ·be the truth, the whole truth, and
`
`14· · · · ·nothing but the truth?
`
`15· · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`16· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Thank you.
`
`17· · · · · · · Counsel, you are all set.
`
`18· ·EXAMINATION
`
`19· ·BY MR. BAUGHMAN:
`
`20· · · · Q.· · Good morning, Mr. Lhymn.· I'm
`
`21· ·Steve Baughman, I represent Apple in this
`
`22· ·matter.
`
`23· · · · · · · Could I ask first whether
`
`24· ·you've been deposed before?
`
`25· · · · A.· · No, I have not.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 4
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · Okay, well, just some very
`
`·2· ·quick housekeeping, I'm sure it's intuitive
`
`·3· ·to you anyway.· I'll be asking you some
`
`·4· ·questions.· Your counsel may have an
`
`·5· ·objection.· Unless he instructs you not to
`
`·6· ·answer, you can go ahead and answer the
`
`·7· ·question even if there's an objection.
`
`·8· ·We'll try to give him a pause to do that.
`
`·9· · · · · · · Ideally, I know the court
`
`10· ·reporter will remind us if we need to, we
`
`11· ·won't talk over each other, so I'll try to
`
`12· ·finish my question before you start
`
`13· ·answering and I'll try to let you finish
`
`14· ·answering before I start asking my next
`
`15· ·question.· But if any of that is confusing,
`
`16· ·feel free to ask or make a comment at any
`
`17· ·time.
`
`18· · · · · · · Also, if you need a break for
`
`19· ·any reason, you're welcome to let me know
`
`20· ·and we'll do that as soon as we can.· Maybe
`
`21· ·finishing the question that's on the table
`
`22· ·and then breaking.· Just let me know.
`
`23· · · · · · · And I guess the one other thing
`
`24· ·I wanted to note is that there's a rule at
`
`25· ·the PTAB.· I don't know if you've had a
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 5
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·chance to discuss it with your counsel, I
`
`·2· ·don't think it will be a problem, but I
`
`·3· ·just want to note that until my
`
`·4· ·cross-examination of you has concluded,
`
`·5· ·you're not supposed to discuss with your
`
`·6· ·counsel here any of the testimony you've
`
`·7· ·given or anticipate to give except to talk
`
`·8· ·about whether a privilege objection might
`
`·9· ·be founded.· And no one is supposed to be
`
`10· ·suggesting the way you answer any questions
`
`11· ·during that period.
`
`12· · · · · · · Does that all make sense to you
`
`13· ·or do you have any questions?
`
`14· · · · A.· · No questions.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · Thanks.
`
`16· · · · · · · Again, since we're all remote,
`
`17· ·just a little more housekeeping.· If you
`
`18· ·need to make a change, that's fine, but do
`
`19· ·you have any programs open, like e-mail or
`
`20· ·texting or other messaging at the moment on
`
`21· ·your computer there?
`
`22· · · · A.· · No.· Only a folder that
`
`23· ·contains the exhibits as well as a clean
`
`24· ·copy of my declaration.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · Okay, great.· And the exhibits
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 6
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·you're referring to are the ones that you
`
`·2· ·reference in your declaration?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · So those are exhibits that have
`
`·5· ·been filed already and exchanged between
`
`·6· ·the parties, as far as you understand?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Great.
`
`·9· · · · · · · Just to say it, you don't have
`
`10· ·any notes, Post-its, other materials around
`
`11· ·you that you could consult during the
`
`12· ·deposition?
`
`13· · · · A.· · No.
`
`14· · · · Q.· · And you understand you
`
`15· ·shouldn't be using your phone or anything
`
`16· ·else to receive or send messages during the
`
`17· ·deposition?
`
`18· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · Okay, great.· Thanks.· Sorry
`
`20· ·for all the housekeeping.· Let's get
`
`21· ·started.
`
`22· · · · · · · One more background bit.· I may
`
`23· ·use some shorthand like "the '228 patent."
`
`24· ·Is it okay if I refer by that to the patent
`
`25· ·that's at issue in this IPR proceeding,
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 7
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·it's number 10,621,228?
`
`·2· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · I see you might have a physical
`
`·4· ·copy of your declaration in front of you,
`
`·5· ·is that right?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · That's great also.· And is that
`
`·8· ·Exhibit 2111?· It should have a number in
`
`·9· ·the lower right corner.
`
`10· · · · A.· · The exhibit you're referring to
`
`11· ·is referring to which exhibit?
`
`12· · · · Q.· · Sorry, you signed a declaration
`
`13· ·in this --
`
`14· · · · A.· · Right.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · -- on I think September 15, is
`
`16· ·that right?
`
`17· · · · A.· · Yes, correct.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · And is that the document you
`
`19· ·have in front of you there?
`
`20· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · You may not have a number on
`
`22· ·your copy, but the copy that everyone else
`
`23· ·has says in the lower right corner
`
`24· ·"MemoryWeb Exhibit 2111."· Does yours not
`
`25· ·have that stamp on it?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 8
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · My copy does not have that
`
`·2· ·stamp.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · Okay, but is it otherwise
`
`·4· ·identical to the copy you signed and you
`
`·5· ·believe was submitted in this case?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · We'll go with that then, thank
`
`·8· ·you.
`
`·9· · · · · · · You understand when I say the
`
`10· ·IPR, this IPR, I'm referring to the IPR
`
`11· ·that's written on the front of your
`
`12· ·declaration, it's IPR 2022-00031.· Is that
`
`13· ·okay?
`
`14· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · Mr. Lhymn, what date did
`
`16· ·MemoryWeb retain you for this project?
`
`17· · · · A.· · They retained me on -- I'd have
`
`18· ·to go back to the exact date that I was
`
`19· ·retained.· I'd have to pull up documents
`
`20· ·showing that.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · Okay, and just to make sure I
`
`22· ·understand, I think I do, when you're
`
`23· ·looking down at something, the only
`
`24· ·document you have there is your
`
`25· ·declaration.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 9
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · Correct, that's it.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · I'm going to refer to that over
`
`·3· ·and over again as Exhibit 2111.· That's
`
`·4· ·because that's how we're identifying them,
`
`·5· ·is that okay?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · So you don't have an exact
`
`·8· ·recollection of when you were retained.· Do
`
`·9· ·you know what month you were retained,
`
`10· ·Mr. Lhymn?
`
`11· · · · A.· · Earlier this month, September.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · And do you remember
`
`13· ·approximately how many days after being
`
`14· ·retained you started work on your
`
`15· ·investigation and report?
`
`16· · · · A.· · I started work that day, that
`
`17· ·same day.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · When you say earlier in
`
`19· ·September, obviously your report was signed
`
`20· ·and filed September 15th.· Do you have a
`
`21· ·sense of how many weeks before that date
`
`22· ·you began?
`
`23· · · · A.· · I would say within a week to
`
`24· ·maybe a week and a half prior to that date.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · So just to make sure I
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 10
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·understand, you were retained in September
`
`·2· ·and from the day you were retained you
`
`·3· ·started work, and then from that point
`
`·4· ·until you signed and submitted your report,
`
`·5· ·it was about a week or a week and a half,
`
`·6· ·is that right?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · That is correct.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · And how many total hours would
`
`·9· ·you say you spent on your work on this
`
`10· ·matter?
`
`11· · · · A.· · I don't know.· I'd have to go
`
`12· ·back to my logs for that.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · Okay, do you have a sense as an
`
`14· ·order of magnitude?
`
`15· · · · A.· · Anywhere between 40 to 50
`
`16· ·hours, somewhere this that ballpark.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · And in preparing for your
`
`18· ·deposition today, what steps did you take?
`
`19· · · · A.· · I had discussions with counsel
`
`20· ·regarding my declaration.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · And "counsel," does that
`
`22· ·include Mr. Christopher?
`
`23· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · Does it include anyone else?
`
`25· · · · A.· · There were two other counsel at
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 11
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·Nixon Peabody that joined some of our
`
`·2· ·meetings prior.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · How many meetings did you have
`
`·4· ·to prepare for the deposition?
`
`·5· · · · A.· · I would say at least two to
`
`·6· ·three.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · Were they in person, remote or
`
`·8· ·some combination?
`
`·9· · · · A.· · Remote.
`
`10· · · · Q.· · All of them were remote?
`
`11· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · And when was the first meeting,
`
`13· ·do you remember?· Just the date.
`
`14· · · · A.· · The first meeting, I don't
`
`15· ·recall the date of the very first meeting
`
`16· ·in preparation for this deposition.· I'd
`
`17· ·have to look at my records.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · When was the last meeting?
`
`19· · · · A.· · This morning, briefly.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · In total how many hours would
`
`21· ·you say you spent meeting in preparation
`
`22· ·for this deposition?
`
`23· · · · A.· · This morning or in total?
`
`24· · · · Q.· · In total, I'm sorry.
`
`25· · · · A.· · Somewhere in the six to eight
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 12
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·hour range.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · Mr. Lhymn, just one more
`
`·3· ·introductory question.· Could you turn to
`
`·4· ·page 3 of your declaration.· That's Exhibit
`
`·5· ·2111.
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · You see at the bottom of page 3
`
`·8· ·there's a paragraph numbered 14 under
`
`·9· ·"legal standards"?
`
`10· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · If you look at page 4, under
`
`12· ·"opinions" do you see another paragraph
`
`13· ·numbered 14?
`
`14· · · · A.· · Yes, I do.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · You can check me but I think
`
`16· ·there are two sets of paragraphs numbered
`
`17· ·14 to 17.· So we'll just have to be careful
`
`18· ·during this deposition to try to keep the
`
`19· ·record clear on that.· I just wanted to
`
`20· ·call that out for us.· Is that correct?
`
`21· · · · A.· · That's correct, thank you.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · Mr. Lhymn, you're a patent
`
`23· ·searcher, is that correct?
`
`24· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · And you've done that in several
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 13
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·different job positions over time?
`
`·2· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · One of those was at the Patent
`
`·4· ·and Trademark Office, or PTO?
`
`·5· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · What was your art unit?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · 3727.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · What is that unit?
`
`·9· · · · A.· · Class 220.· So there are
`
`10· ·several classes within 3727.· Class 220 is
`
`11· ·receptacles.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · So containers?
`
`13· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · · Q.· · And your education is as a
`
`15· ·mechanical engineer?
`
`16· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · And I see from your CV that you
`
`18· ·worked at Bayer Applied Research and Air
`
`19· ·Products and Chemicals, is that right?
`
`20· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · What was the general subject
`
`22· ·matter of those jobs in terms of
`
`23· ·technology?
`
`24· · · · A.· · General subject matter at the
`
`25· ·Applied Research Lab, finite element
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 14
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·analysis, so implementation of mathematical
`
`·2· ·modeling, software modeling of structures
`
`·3· ·for stress analysis.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · And at Bayer?
`
`·5· · · · A.· · At Bayer, same thing, finite
`
`·6· ·element analysis, applying computational
`
`·7· ·software methodology to structurally
`
`·8· ·analyze stress distribution, stress
`
`·9· ·failure, things of that nature.
`
`10· · · · Q.· · And at Air Products?
`
`11· · · · A.· · Air Products, project
`
`12· ·engineering, cryogenic vessel design.
`
`13· ·Again, also utilizing computational
`
`14· ·methods.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · Did you do any patent searching
`
`16· ·in those three positions?
`
`17· · · · A.· · No, I did not.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · So your next position with
`
`19· ·patent searching was at Cardinal, is that
`
`20· ·right?
`
`21· · · · A.· · Well, the USPTO first, and then
`
`22· ·Cardinal, yes.
`
`23· · · · Q.· · Could you describe what
`
`24· ·Cardinal's business is?
`
`25· · · · A.· · Patent research.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 15
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · So it's a leading search firm,
`
`·2· ·is that fair?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · I know you have a firm as well
`
`·5· ·so I don't want to draw a comparison.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Now, Mr. Lhymn, you have your
`
`·7· ·own search firm, is that right?
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· · It's called what?
`
`10· · · · A.· · Sherman Patent Search Group.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · Or SPSG?
`
`12· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · And you actually have another
`
`14· ·firm as well, right?
`
`15· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · What's that?
`
`17· · · · A.· · Visualize IP.· That is a
`
`18· ·computer vision AI SAS startup.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · Does that Visualize IP business
`
`20· ·do patent searching?
`
`21· · · · A.· · In a tangential way, yes.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · Do you use it in your patent
`
`23· ·searching?
`
`24· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · Q.· · Does SPSG use Visualize IP in
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 16
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·its patent searching?
`
`·2· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · Now, at a high level,
`
`·4· ·Mr. Lhymn, what are the steps you would
`
`·5· ·follow in connection with a patent search?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Well, it depends on the type of
`
`·7· ·search, which is really the question we're
`
`·8· ·trying to answer.· So a novelty search is a
`
`·9· ·bit different from a freedom top rate
`
`10· ·search and so on.· Some of the basic steps
`
`11· ·are talking to the client, looking over
`
`12· ·initial materials, whether that's invention
`
`13· ·disclosure, whether that's a patent in
`
`14· ·terms of a validity or invalidity search.
`
`15· ·Basic initial steps of initializing our
`
`16· ·knowledge of what we're looking for.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · Let me focus you on a patent
`
`18· ·invalidity search.· What are the steps you
`
`19· ·would take after someone has identified a
`
`20· ·patent to you?
`
`21· · · · A.· · Sure, sure.· To clarify, Steve,
`
`22· ·you're referring to the patent that is to
`
`23· ·be searched against, correct?
`
`24· · · · Q.· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · A.· · Okay.· We want to confirm which
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 17
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·claims we're searching.
`
`·2· · · · · · · We want to confirm the date,
`
`·3· ·the critical date of course.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · You mentioned which claims
`
`·5· ·you're searching.· How does that affect the
`
`·6· ·search?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · Well, that can easily affect
`
`·8· ·the scope of the search.· I mean, we're
`
`·9· ·searching for more limitations, that's more
`
`10· ·time, more effort.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · What about the critical date?
`
`12· · · · A.· · That doesn't increase the scope
`
`13· ·of work for us, but it is something that we
`
`14· ·need to be at least somewhat aware of
`
`15· ·during the search.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · Once you know which claims are
`
`17· ·being targeted in the search, what is your
`
`18· ·next step?
`
`19· · · · A.· · We want to study -- if there is
`
`20· ·any known prior art that the client's
`
`21· ·already aware of, that can serve as a
`
`22· ·starting point.· If there are certain
`
`23· ·limitations, certain features in the
`
`24· ·independent claims that we would -- the
`
`25· ·client would like us to focus on.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 18
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·Basically confirming if there are certain
`
`·2· ·claim limitations, subsets of certain
`
`·3· ·claims even that we should focus on.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · Now, if you're in a situation
`
`·5· ·where someone has not identified
`
`·6· ·limitations and features they would like to
`
`·7· ·focus on, what steps do you take?
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Well, we're searching the claim
`
`·9· ·as a whole at that point, and we confirm
`
`10· ·that with the client and begin our
`
`11· ·processes.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · And since you had different
`
`13· ·experiences, maybe we should focus in on
`
`14· ·several of them.· Is this all applicable to
`
`15· ·your time at Cardinal and your time at
`
`16· ·SPSG?· Is that how you would perform the
`
`17· ·search at both of those locations?
`
`18· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · Once you've focused on the
`
`20· ·claims and the features that you're looking
`
`21· ·for, what is your next step?
`
`22· · · · A.· · Well, in the patent in question
`
`23· ·there's a lot of -- for a skilled searcher
`
`24· ·there's a lot of useful metadata associated
`
`25· ·with that patent.· That includes keywords
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 19
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·and terminology in the abstract and/or
`
`·2· ·claims of that patent.· That includes
`
`·3· ·studying the classifications in the CPC or
`
`·4· ·IPC codes of that patent as well.· Those
`
`·5· ·are all great starting points.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · How many keywords would you
`
`·7· ·typically be looking for?
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Well, there are different
`
`·9· ·stages of a search.· So initially we could
`
`10· ·take keywords and terms directly from the
`
`11· ·claims verbatim, from the claims and/or
`
`12· ·abstract.· And that's a starting point.
`
`13· ·Our keyword strategy typically starts with
`
`14· ·that.· Very simple.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · What would later stages look
`
`16· ·like?
`
`17· · · · A.· · Well, that often depends on
`
`18· ·what the search hits look like.· Did we
`
`19· ·find references that were useful, that were
`
`20· ·interesting.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · So from that initial stage you
`
`22· ·would run a search?
`
`23· · · · A.· · Correct.· Correct.· And there
`
`24· ·are of course various initial stage steps
`
`25· ·we could take.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 20
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · Another step could be are
`
`·2· ·there -- is there an assignee, is there an
`
`·3· ·entity in which the patent was already
`
`·4· ·asserted against.· So that can give us
`
`·5· ·information as well to guide us at least in
`
`·6· ·the initial stages of the search.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· · Is it your opinion that that is
`
`·8· ·a necessary step for an ordinarily skilled
`
`·9· ·searcher to perform a reasonably diligent
`
`10· ·search?
`
`11· · · · A.· · Well, in talking to the clients
`
`12· ·in the initial stages, if that was
`
`13· ·information that was given to us in
`
`14· ·addition to whether there's already known
`
`15· ·prior art.· Sometimes clients already know
`
`16· ·of references that they can share with us,
`
`17· ·and that can help at least guide us in the
`
`18· ·initial stages of the search.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · But if that's not the case, if
`
`20· ·information was not given to you, is that a
`
`21· ·necessary step?
`
`22· · · · · · · MR. CHRISTOPHER:· Objection to
`
`23· · · · ·form.
`
`24· · · · A.· · I would not say that's a
`
`25· ·necessary step.· Only if that information
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 21
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·is presented to us.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · Is keyword searching a
`
`·3· ·necessary step?
`
`·4· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· · How much?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Can you clarify what you mean
`
`·7· ·by "how much"?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Well, we're talking about what
`
`·9· ·an ordinarily skilled searcher would do to
`
`10· ·complete a reasonably diligent search.· How
`
`11· ·much keyword searching is required?
`
`12· · · · A.· · Can you clarify what you mean
`
`13· ·"how much keyword searching is required"?
`
`14· · · · Q.· · How many keywords would you
`
`15· ·think were necessary --
`
`16· · · · A.· · Okay, got it.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · -- for a reasonably diligent
`
`18· ·search.
`
`19· · · · A.· · Sure, sure.· Well, every search
`
`20· ·is a unique challenge.· Every search
`
`21· ·presents a different requirement, but the
`
`22· ·requirement, the need to implement keywords
`
`23· ·in a search certainly is very important.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · So some keywords.
`
`25· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 22
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · But you can't say as a general
`
`·2· ·matter what a reasonably diligent search
`
`·3· ·would include in terms of number of
`
`·4· ·keywords?
`
`·5· · · · · · · MR. CHRISTOPHER:· Objection to
`
`·6· · · · ·form.
`
`·7· · · · A.· · That's correct.· In every
`
`·8· ·search, in the hundreds and thousands of
`
`·9· ·searches that I've participated in, there's
`
`10· ·no rule of thumb, there's no standard in
`
`11· ·our practice, in our -- for a skilled
`
`12· ·searcher to say okay, this search is not
`
`13· ·complete until you have 20 keywords.
`
`14· ·That's not the case.· Every case presents
`
`15· ·itself differently.· But of course
`
`16· ·keywords --
`
`17· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry, go ahead.
`
`18· · · · A.· · Of course keywords are part of
`
`19· ·a diligent search.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · Is there a rule of thumb or
`
`21· ·standard about how many searches have to be
`
`22· ·done?
`
`23· · · · A.· · No.· There's not a rule in
`
`24· ·terms of a minimum number of strings that
`
`25· ·is required.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 23
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · So what standard do you use to
`
`·2· ·judge whether a search is reasonably
`
`·3· ·diligent?
`
`·4· · · · A.· · So as a skilled searcher, we
`
`·5· ·often -- patent searching is a very complex
`
`·6· ·art form.· So it does require dynamics, it
`
`·7· ·requires responding to references that
`
`·8· ·you're seeing, adjusting and iterating; for
`
`·9· ·a skilled searcher to know when a diligent
`
`10· ·search should, for instance, stop, where
`
`11· ·reference is located, are the references
`
`12· ·converging, are we seeing the same
`
`13· ·references over and over again, are
`
`14· ·references becoming divergent, becoming
`
`15· ·more and more irrelevant, away from the
`
`16· ·core of what we're searching for.
`
`17· · · · · · · Those are some of the
`
`18· ·qualitative standards that a skilled
`
`19· ·searcher uses to determine what is a
`
`20· ·diligent search.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · Mr. Lhymn, do you speak in your
`
`22· ·declaration about -- in your opinions about
`
`23· ·a search for the '228 patent whether
`
`24· ·references were converging or diverging in
`
`25· ·the searches you did?
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 24
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· · No.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · Did you determine how much
`
`·3· ·searching would be enough to come to a
`
`·4· ·conclusion of a reasonably diligent search
`
`·5· ·in the '228 patent?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · May you repeat that question,
`
`·7· ·please?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Sure.· Did you analyze what an
`
`·9· ·appropriate stopping point would be for a
`
`10· ·reasonably diligent search targeting the
`
`11· ·'228 patent?
`
`12· · · · A.· · My -- I was asked to answer a
`
`13· ·specific question, whether an ordinarily
`
`14· ·skilled searcher performing a reasonably
`
`15· ·diligent search in the time frame would
`
`16· ·have located the Aperture 3 user manual in
`
`17· ·the Belitz references.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · And as part of that analysis
`
`19· ·did you consider the volume of material the
`
`20· ·searcher would have reviewed as part of the
`
`21· ·entirety of a reasonably diligent search?
`
`22· · · · A.· · Repeat that question, please.
`
`23· · · · · · · MR. BAUGHMAN:· Can the reporter
`
`24· · · · ·read it back, please.
`
`25· · · · · · · (Whereupon, the referred to
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 25
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·question was read back by the
`
`·2· · · · ·reporter.)
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Part of our -- in my
`
`·4· ·declaration we do consider the number of
`
`·5· ·search hits reviewed by a skilled searcher
`
`·6· ·according to the search strings in my
`
`·7· ·declaration.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Let's see if you can answer the
`
`·9· ·question I asked, which is, did you analyze
`
`10· ·the volume of material the searcher would
`
`11· ·have reviewed as part of the entirety of a
`
`12· ·reasonably diligent search?
`
`13· · · · · · · MR. CHRISTOPHER:· Objection.
`
`14· · · · Q.· · I think you can answer, go
`
`15· ·ahead.
`
`16· · · · A.· · Sure, sure, sure.· As a skilled
`
`17· ·searcher in standard practice, when
`
`18· ·performing let's say an invalidity search,
`
`19· ·determining at the outset the total volume
`
`20· ·of references that could be reviewed or
`
`21· ·should be reviewed is not a metric that a
`
`22· ·skilled searcher uses at the outset, at the
`
`23· ·beginning of a search.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · Well, let me ask another
`
`25· ·question.· Mr. Lhymn, you didn't purport to
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 26
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·perform a reasonably diligent search
`
`·2· ·targeting the '228 patent, did you?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Can you repeat that question,
`
`·4· ·please?
`
`·5· · · · Q.· · I might be able to ask it
`
`·6· ·better.
`
`·7· · · · · · · Mr. Lhymn, you don't purport in
`
`·8· ·your declaration to have performed the
`
`·9· ·entirety of a reasonably diligent search
`
`10· ·concerning the validity of the '228 patent,
`
`11· ·do you?
`
`12· · · · A.· · I was asked to answer a
`
`13· ·specific question as to whether an
`
`14· ·ordinarily skilled searcher in the time
`
`15· ·frame performing a reasonably diligent
`
`16· ·search would have located the Aperture 3
`
`17· ·manual in the Belitz references.· I was not
`
`18· ·asked to set forth every possible
`
`19· ·permutation of search strings of keywords
`
`20· ·and/or classifications that a skilled
`
`21· ·searcher could take.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · I asked a slightly different
`
`23· ·question.· Let me ask it again.
`
`24· · · · · · · Mr. Lhymn, you didn't as part
`
`25· ·of your investigation perform an entire
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 27
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·search for validity of the '228 patent that
`
`·2· ·you would consider reasonably diligent,
`
`·3· ·right?
`
`·4· · · · A.· · Again, I was asked to answer a
`
`·5· ·specific question, whether an ordinarily
`
`·6· ·skilled searcher performing a reasonably
`
`·7· ·diligent search in the time frame would
`
`·8· ·have located the Aperture 3 manual in the
`
`·9· ·Belitz reference.
`
`10· · · · Q.· · I understand what you were
`
`11· ·asked.· I'm asking what you did.· You did
`
`12· ·not as part of your investigation here
`
`13· ·perform an entire validity search for the
`
`14· ·'228 patent that you would consider
`
`15· ·reasonably diligent, did you?
`
`16· · · · A.· · I was not tasked with sharing
`
`17· ·every possible permutation of search
`
`18· ·strings that could be used by a skilled
`
`19· ·searcher in searching the '228 patent.
`
`20· ·That was not my assignment.
`
`21· · · · Q.· · Understood.· I'm not asking
`
`22· ·about what your assignment was.· I'm asking
`
`23· ·what you actually did.· You ran a number of
`
`24· ·search strings, correct?
`
`25· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 28
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · A finite number.
`
`·2· · · · A.· · Correct.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · Is it a smaller number of
`
`·4· ·search strings than you would run in an
`
`·5· ·ordinary search?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · Well, the number of search
`
`·7· ·strings in an ordinary search can vary
`
`·8· ·quite a bit.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· · Do you consider the number --
`
`10· ·strike that.
`
`11· · · · · · · Mr. Lhymn, thinking about all
`
`12· ·the searches that you describe that you ran
`
`13· ·in this investigation, would you consider
`
`14· ·that to be a complete and reasonably
`
`15· ·diligent search of the validity of the '228
`
`16· ·patent?
`
`17· · · · A.· · The search strings in my
`
`18· ·declaration reflect what a skilled searcher
`
`19· ·of ordinary skill would have found within
`
`20· ·the time frame of the Aperture 3 manual in
`
`21· ·the Belitz references.
`
`22· · · · Q.· · That's not my question,
`
`23· ·Mr. Lhymn.· Considering the searches that
`
`24· ·you describe you ran in this investigation,
`
`25· ·would you in your opinion consider that to
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 29
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· ·be a reasonably diligent search on the
`
`·2· ·validity of the '228 patent?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Commenting on the validity of
`
`·4· ·the '228 patent, that's outside of the
`
`·5· ·scope of what I was asked to do.· My
`
`·6· ·assignment was not to make commentary
`
`·7· ·regarding the validity of the '228 patent.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Were you opining about an
`
`·9· ·invalidity search?
`
`10· · · · A.· · Can you repeat that question,
`
`11· ·please?
`
`12· · · · Q.· · Mr. Lhymn, you have a
`
`13· ·declaration here that gives opinions about
`
`14· ·an invalidity search, right?
`
`15· · · · A.· · My declaration is centered
`
`16· ·around whether a skilled searcher would
`
`17· ·have located the Aperture 3 manual in the
`
`18· ·Belitz references.· My declaration does not
`
`19· ·discuss validity of any patent reference.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · I think we began this
`
`21· ·deposition with you telling me that one
`
`22· ·kind of search was an invalidity search, is
`
`23· ·that fair?
`
`24· · · · A.· · Yes, that's a type of search
`
`25· ·patent searchers can execute.
`
`Petitioner Apple Inc., Ex. 1115, p. 30
`Apple Inc. v. MemoryWeb, LLC, IPR2022-00031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · And the
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