`
`Loren Terveen, Ph.D.
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`September 13, 2022
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`Volume |
`
`Apple Inc.
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`vs.
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`MemoryWeb, LLC
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`© aetu
`URT US.
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`www.aptusCR.com | 866.999.8310
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`MemoryWebEx. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb — IPR2022-0003 1
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`MemoryWeb Ex. 2023
`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00031
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`Page 1
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · vs.· · · · ·) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`10· ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`11· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · )
`· · ·________________________ )
`12
`13· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`14· · · · · · · · · ·LOREN TERVEEN, PH.D.
`· · · · · · · ·________________________________
`15
`16· · · · · · · · · Volume I· (Pages 1-241)
`17
`18· ·Date:· ·Tuesday, September 13, 2022
`19· ·Time:· ·9:04 a.m. CST
`20· ·Reporter:· Renee Combs Quinby, RDR, CRR, CSR IL, CSR
`21· ·MO, CSR CA #11867
`22· ·Job No.: 10107154
`23
`24
`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`Page 3
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`·3
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`·4· ·EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHWARTZ .......................5
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
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`·6· ·Exhibit 1003 Declaration of Dr. Loren G.· · · · · 10
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`·7· · · · · · · ·Terveen
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`·8· ·Exhibit 1005 Aperture 3 User Manual· · · · · · · ·13
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`·9· ·Exhibit 2021 OSXHIGuidelines.pdf, with· · · · · · 19
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`10· · · · · · · ·"Apple Human Interface
`
`11· · · · · · · ·Guidelines User Experience" on
`
`12· · · · · · · ·the first page
`
`13· ·Exhibit 2022 book entitled, "The Essential· · · · 47
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Guide to User Interface Design"
`
`15· ·(The original exhibits were provided to the court
`
`16· ·reporter electronically to be attached to the
`
`17· ·original and copies of the transcript.)
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
`·2
`·3· ·FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·4
`· · · · · Kyle Smith, Esq. (remotely)
`·5· · · · Jeffrey P. Kushan, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Sidley Austin, LLP
`·6· · · · 1501 K Street, #600
`· · · · · Washington, D.C.· 20005
`·7· · · · (202)736-8914
`· · · · · kyle.smith@sidley.com
`·8· · · · jkushan@sidley.com
`·9
`10· ·and
`11· · · · Riana J. Freedman, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Sidley Austin, LLP
`12· · · · 787 7th Avenue
`· · · · · New York, NY· 10019
`13· · · · (212)839-5300
`· · · · · rfreedman@sidley.com
`14
`15
`16· ·FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`17· · · · Daniel J. Schwartz, Esq. (remotely)
`· · · · · Nixon Peabody LLP
`18· · · · 70 W. Madison Street, Suite 5200
`· · · · · Chicago, IL· 60602
`19· · · · (312)977-4400
`· · · · · dschwartz@nixonpeabody.com
`20
`21
`22· ·APTUS MONITOR:· Chris Landrum (remotely)
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`·4· ·APPLE INC.,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·5· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · · · · · vs.· · · · ·) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) IPR PARTES REVIEW
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ) No. IPR2022-00031
`10· ·MEMORYWEB, LLC,· · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`11· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · · )
`· · ·________________________ )
`12
`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`14· · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF LOREN
`15· ·TERVEEN, PH.D., produced, sworn, and examined on
`16· ·Tuesday, September 13, 2022, with the witness
`17· ·appearing via videoconference from Washington, D.C.,
`18· ·taken on behalf of the Patent Owner, before RENEE
`19· ·COMBS QUINBY, Registered Diplomate Reporter,
`20· ·Certified Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand
`21· ·Reporter for the State of Illinois, Certified
`22· ·Shorthand Reporter for the State of California,
`23· ·Certified Court Reporter for the State of Missouri,
`24· ·and a Realtime Systems Administrator.
`25
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`Apple v. MemoryWeb – IPR2022-00031
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`·2· · · · · · ·IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
`·3· ·between counsel for the Patent Owner and counsel for
`·4· ·the Petitioner that this deposition may be taken in
`·5· ·machine shorthand by RENEE QUINBY, RDR, CRR,
`·6· ·Certified Court Reporter, and Certified Shorthand
`·7· ·Reporter, and afterwards transcribed into
`·8· ·typewriting.
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·--oOo--
`10· · · · · · · · · ·LOREN TERVEEN, PH.D.,
`11· ·of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to
`12· ·testify to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
`13· ·but the truth in the case aforesaid, deposes and
`14· ·says in reply to oral interrogatories propounded as
`15· ·follows, to-wit:
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · --o0o--
`17· · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S· ·9:04 a.m. CST
`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`19· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Professor Terveen.
`21· ·Again, just for the record, it's Professor Terveen;
`22· ·is that okay?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· Thank you.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm Dan Schwartz of Nixon Peabody.· I'm
`25· ·in Chicago.· I represent MemoryWeb in connection
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`Page 7
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it does.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·And also I appreciate the fact that you
`·3· ·both nodded and said "yes, it does," because as you
`·4· ·know, our wonderful court reporter is only taking
`·5· ·down the words that we speak and not the gestures or
`·6· ·"uh-huhs" and "uh-uhs" that we all will fall prey
`·7· ·to, including myself.· So I may remind you to keep
`·8· ·the response audible.
`·9· · · · · · · · The only other kind of rules for the
`10· ·road that I'll throw out there that -- try to allow
`11· ·me to finish my question before answering it such
`12· ·that the court reporter cannot have people speaking
`13· ·over each other.· It makes for a cleaner transcript.
`14· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· That makes sense.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And we'll go for about an hour or an
`17· ·hour and a half in between breaks, but if for any
`18· ·reason you need to take a break, I may finish up a
`19· ·series of questions, but just let me know and we'll
`20· ·try and accommodate you if you need a comfort or
`21· ·restroom break or something like that.
`22· · · · · · · · Does that work?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· Yes, that works.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Good.
`25· · · · · · · · So first off, where are you this
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`Page 6
`·1· ·with these patent office proceedings, including the
`·2· ·four that you have issued declarations in.
`·3· · · · · · · · Have you had your deposition taken
`·4· ·before?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I have.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you've had your deposition taken
`·7· ·before in PTAB proceedings; is that right?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·So you're familiar with how this is
`10· ·going to go, but I'll give a couple of background
`11· ·rules for the road and make sure that we're all on
`12· ·the same page going forward.
`13· · · · · · · · I'll ask you a series of questions.
`14· ·You'll give me a series of answers.· From time to
`15· ·time your counsel may interpose an objection, and
`16· ·other than an objection that instructs you not to
`17· ·answer on attorney-client privilege grounds, you'll
`18· ·still have to answer the question to the best of
`19· ·your ability.
`20· · · · · · · · I will try and make the questions as
`21· ·clear as I can.· And if you have any questions or
`22· ·need any clarification, just let me know.
`23· ·Otherwise, I'll assume that you understand the
`24· ·question.
`25· · · · · · · · Is that fair and make sense?
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`Page 8
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`·1· ·morning, Professor Terveen?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm in a Sidley Austin conference room
`·3· ·in Washington, D.C.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And who is in the room with you?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Kyle Smith.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·Is Mr. Smith the only person in the
`·7· ·room with you?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And in terms of the technology
`10· ·setup, just so I understand what you have there, can
`11· ·you describe your interface, your format for how
`12· ·you're experiencing this Zoom?· Are we on a big
`13· ·screen at the end of the room?· Do you have
`14· ·monitors, that kind of thing?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.· You are on a big screen at the
`16· ·end of the room, and I have a laptop and a large
`17· ·monitor here to help myself if I want to look at
`18· ·PDFs of any of the exhibits that you introduce.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·On any of the screens that you have
`20· ·there, is anything else open such as any messaging
`21· ·apps or email or any other applications?
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you don't have your phone on or
`24· ·with you at the present time?
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·My phone is with me.· It's in airplane
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`·1· ·mode.· I did that right away, yeah.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Perfect.· Thank you.
`·3· · · · · · · · And is there anything about your
`·4· ·present state of being that would prevent you from
`·5· ·testifying truthfully and honestly in this
`·6· ·proceeding?
`·7· · · · · ·A.· ·No, I don't think so.
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·We sent a link to your counsel about a
`·9· ·half an hour or so ago that contained a set of
`10· ·exhibits.· Have you received that?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I received that, and I downloaded
`12· ·the exhibits.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Good.
`14· · · · · · · · And you'll have the ability to open up
`15· ·an exhibit and put it on a screen in front of you
`16· ·while keeping the screen that I'm on and the Zoom is
`17· ·on up and available to you?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I will.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Good.· All right.· All right.
`20· ·Give me a second to get myself organized.· All
`21· ·right.
`22· · · · · · · · A little bit more just groundwork
`23· ·because there are four different proceedings here.
`24· ·And you have authored declarations in each of the
`25· ·four.· Professor Terveen, you've authored and
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`Page 10
`·1· ·offered declarations in a PGR proceeding relating to
`·2· ·MemoryWeb's U.S. Patent 11,017,020; is that right?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And just so we can do this on
`·5· ·the record, I'm going to ask you in the box that was
`·6· ·sent to you to open up, Exhibit 1003, the
`·7· ·Declaration of Dr. Loren G. Terveen, PGR2022-006.
`·8· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1003 was
`·9· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
`10· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Okay.· I've opened
`11· ·that.
`12· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is a copy of your declaration
`14· ·in the '020 PGR; is that right?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I think so.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And you'll see down in the bottom
`17· ·right-hand corner of the first page it says
`18· ·Exhibit 1003?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, yes, Exhibit 1003, cover, yeah.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.· Thank you.
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.
`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm going to bring up each of the
`23· ·other ones which are also labeled Exhibit 1003
`24· ·because they're 1003 in each of them, and I'm just
`25· ·going to go through a little naming convention so
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`Page 11
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`·1· ·we're all on the same page.
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you'll bring up the -- from the box
`·4· ·what's also labeled Exhibit 1003, Declaration of
`·5· ·Loren G. Terveen, IPR2022-00033.
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I see it.· Okay.· I've brought
`·7· ·that up.
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I'm guessing that what's on your
`·9· ·screen is the cover page for your declaration in the
`10· ·'658 IPR proceeding?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·And that's a 173-page document?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·Next I'll ask you to open up
`15· ·Exhibit 1003, Declaration of Loren G. Terveen,
`16· ·IPR2022-00032, which is the declaration in the '376
`17· ·proceeding.
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I've opened that up.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is a copy of your declaration
`20· ·of the '376 IPR proceeding, correct?
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this one has 169 pages?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then finally is your declaration,
`25· ·Exhibit 1003, Declaration of Dr. Loren G. Terveen,
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`Page 12
`·1· ·IPR2022-00031, and this is the declaration in the
`·2· ·'228 proceeding; is that right?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this one says it's 151 pages.
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·That's right.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·I will endeavor throughout the next day
`·7· ·or so to properly refer to the one that I am talking
`·8· ·about, and I will refer to them, if it is okay with
`·9· ·you as, you know, either Exhibit 1003 or 1,003 in
`10· ·the '020 proceeding, and that will refer to the PGR
`11· ·'020 proceeding declaration.
`12· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that makes sense.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·And similarly if I'm referring to one
`15· ·of the other ones, I will identify it by the patent
`16· ·that it relates to and/or the proceeding that it's
`17· ·in.
`18· · · · · · · · Is that fair?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·And I have my trusty colleague with me
`21· ·that if I forget and it's unclear which one, he may
`22· ·throw something at me, so if you see that on the
`23· ·screen, you know, I'll -- I'll, you know, be sure to
`24· ·properly identify which one we're talking about.
`25· · · · · · · · But that's the way I'm going to operate
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`·1· ·today even if -- because we have four Exhibit 1003s.
`·2· · · · · · · · Is that fair?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Sure.· That makes sense.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· And then if you will go
`·5· ·back into the link that was sent, there is a
`·6· ·document labeled Exhibit 1005, A3UM-HTML.
`·7· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 1005 was
`·8· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay, yes, I opened that.
`10· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·And this is the version of the
`12· ·Aperture 3 User Manual that you relied on in
`13· ·connection with your declaration; is that correct?
`14· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's correct.
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·And actually I'll -- let me ask that
`16· ·further.· It's the version of the Aperture 3 User
`17· ·Manual that you relied on in all four of your
`18· ·declarations, correct?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's right.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·And Exhibit -- in each of the four
`21· ·proceedings, this exhibit was labeled as 1005, and I
`22· ·just want to confirm with you that there are no
`23· ·differences between the versions that you attached
`24· ·in any -- no differences in Exhibit 1005, the
`25· ·Aperture 3 User Manual HTML version in any of your
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`Page 14
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`·1· ·four declarations?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I'm aware of, no.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·When you prepared your declarations you
`·4· ·intended for that version of the user manual to be
`·5· ·the same in each of the four declarations, correct?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So throughout the
`·8· ·day, I may refer to that as "Exhibit 1005" or "the
`·9· ·user manual," and that will apply to the document as
`10· ·it relates to any of the four proceedings.
`11· · · · · · · · Does that make sense?
`12· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that makes sense.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·All right.· Good.· Thank you, Professor
`14· ·Terveen.
`15· · · · · · · · Just a couple of quick questions.· What
`16· ·did you do to prepare for your deposition today?
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I reviewed the -- I reviewed my
`18· ·declarations and the patents.· I spoke with the
`19· ·attorneys from Sidley Austin.· Yeah.· I think that's
`20· ·pretty much what I did, yeah.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And how long did you spend with the
`22· ·attorneys at Sidley and Austin?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, let's see.· I probably had four
`24· ·or five teleconferences, maybe an hour or two each,
`25· ·and then -- let's see.· This Sunday I spent a couple
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`·1· ·hours, and I think I spent about three or four hours
`·2· ·yesterday in person.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And how long did you spend
`·4· ·reviewing your declarations and the patents and
`·5· ·related materials?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Boy, I don't know.· There's four
`·7· ·patents and, you know, I guess about 600 pages of
`·8· ·declarations, so I don't know.· You know, 20 to 30
`·9· ·hours maybe.· Yeah.· I'm just guessing.
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· That's -- that's fair.· Okay.
`11· · · · · · · · Did you review any materials in
`12· ·addition to those that are listed in the "Materials
`13· ·Considered" sections of your declarations?
`14· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· I caution the witness not
`15· ·to reveal the substance of any privileged
`16· ·conversations or attorney work product.
`17· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Could you
`18· ·just ask that again?· I want to make sure I answer
`19· ·what you're after.
`20· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· I'm asking whether you reviewed
`22· ·any materials in preparation for your deposition
`23· ·today that were not listed in the "Materials
`24· ·Considered" portion of your four declarations.
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I recall, no.
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`Page 16
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· For ease of reference, I'm going
`·2· ·to ask you to open up the '020 declaration of yours,
`·3· ·which is Exhibit 1003 in the '020 proceeding.
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·And this is my declaration in the PGR?
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've got it open.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·Gotcha.· And on page romanette v
`·8· ·there's a list of exhibits considered starting on
`·9· ·page romanette v, sorry.
`10· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I see that.
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And it extends to romanette vii.
`12· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, yes.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·And it lists a few dozen documents.
`15· ·Are these all of the materials that you reviewed in
`16· ·connection with preparing your declaration for the
`17· ·'020 PGR proceeding?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, I -- I may have looked at some
`19· ·other documents, but these are the ones that I would
`20· ·rely on for the opinions that I expressed here.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you have any specific recollection
`22· ·of what those other documents may have been?
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·No.· No.
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·The documents that are in this list,
`25· ·did you find them -- how did you come across these
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`·1· ·documents?
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Let me look through those.
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·Fair.
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I believe in most cases, they
`·5· ·were provided to me by the attorneys I was working
`·6· ·with.· I think there's a few cases where I was
`·7· ·already familiar with them, like, you know,
`·8· ·there's -- there's a reference to the Flickr tour,
`·9· ·and I certainly, you know, was familiar with Flickr.
`10· · · · · · · · What else?· Like the Wikipedia entry
`11· ·for photo sharing and the image organizer.· I can't
`12· ·recall if I had seen those before.· It's possible.
`13· ·But in most cases, they were provided to me by the
`14· ·Sidley Austin attorneys.
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you ask for these specific
`16· ·documents or did you ask for these specific
`17· ·documents from Sidley and Austin or were they
`18· ·provided to you by Sidley and Austin?
`19· · · · · ·A.· ·I think they were provided to me by
`20· ·Sidley Austin.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·As you were preparing your declaration
`22· ·in the '020, did you ask them for any additional
`23· ·information that may have been helpful to your
`24· ·opinions?
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·Could you ask that question again,
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`·1· ·please?
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Sure.· As you were preparing your
`·3· ·declaration for the '020 PGR, did you ask the
`·4· ·counsel at Sidley and Austin for any additional
`·5· ·information that had not already been provided that
`·6· ·may have been helpful to preparing your opinions?
`·7· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Again, I caution the
`·8· ·witness not to reveal the substance of any
`·9· ·privileged conversations or attorney work product.
`10· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't recall that I
`11· ·asked for any additional information.
`12· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·And is that also true of the opinions
`14· ·in the other three declarations as well, that you
`15· ·did not ask for additional information from counsel
`16· ·that may be helpful in rendering your opinions?
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·You know, I don't recall.· There was a
`18· ·lot of back and forth between us as I was preparing
`19· ·my declarations, and there may have been times where
`20· ·I've said, you know -- you know, I'd like some
`21· ·clarification about this, but I -- yeah, I mean, I
`22· ·guess I wrote those declarations over a year ago or
`23· ·whatever it was, so I really don't recall those
`24· ·details.
`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you ask -- did you
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`·1· ·review -- strike that.
`·2· · · · · · · · Did you review any documents authored
`·3· ·by Apple as it relates to developing applications
`·4· ·for their user interfaces?
`·5· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Same caution regarding
`·6· ·privilege.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Let me look through the
`·8· ·exhibits I have listed here and I'll see what I have
`·9· ·here.· And of course, you know, as I said before, I
`10· ·might have looked at things that I didn't then rely
`11· ·on for my opinions.
`12· · · · · · · · Well, I certainly listed some Apple
`13· ·documents that I relied on in this list of exhibits.
`14· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·Outside of that, you did not request
`16· ·any other documents authored by Apple as it related
`17· ·to applications using Apple's interface?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Not that I recall, yeah.· I don't know
`19· ·one way or the other.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Why don't we do this?· If you could go
`21· ·into the box and open what is premarked as
`22· ·Exhibit 2021 with the name OSXHIGuideline --
`23· ·Guidelines.pdf.
`24· · · · · · · · (Whereupon, Exhibit 2021 was
`25· · · · · · · · marked for identification.)
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`·1· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you see that?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.· I don't -- I've got Exhibit 1021
`·4· ·open, but I didn't see --
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·2021?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·2021.· Sorry about that.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·No worries.· This is the fun of being
`·8· ·in multiple offices.
`·9· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've got it open.
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·And just to be sure that we're on the
`11· ·same page, you have open in front of you what's been
`12· ·marked as Exhibit 2021, OSXHIGuidelines.pdf, and the
`13· ·first page says, "Apple Human Interface Guidelines
`14· ·User Experience"; is that correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·That is correct.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then at the bottom of the first
`17· ·page there is an Apple logo with the date of
`18· ·August 20th, 2009.
`19· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`20· · · · · ·A.· ·I do.
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And on the second page of the document
`22· ·there is copyright information showing that Apple is
`23· ·the author and copyright owner of this with a latest
`24· ·copyright date of 2009 to Apple Inc.
`25· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·You didn't review this document in
`·3· ·connection with your opinions in the four matters
`·4· ·we're discussing here today, correct?
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·No, I did not review this document.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever seen this document
`·7· ·before?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·You know, I've looked at Apple Human
`·9· ·Interface Guidelines in the past.· It might have
`10· ·been an older version of this, but, you know, that's
`11· ·one of those things I'm not really sure of the
`12· ·answer.
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·So you know documents like this exist,
`14· ·correct?
`15· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`16· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I guess what I
`17· ·know in general is that, you know, companies like
`18· ·Apple and Microsoft and Google have interface
`19· ·guidelines.
`20· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·And so you knew that Apple had
`22· ·interface guidelines in and around the August 2009
`23· ·time frame; is that right, Professor Terveen?
`24· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`25· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I guess I would say it
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`·1· ·seems plausible to me that they did.
`·2· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·You did not ask anyone for any
`·4· ·documents from Apple or Microsoft or Google who may
`·5· ·have interface guidelines to see those documents as
`·6· ·they existed at or before the priority dates in
`·7· ·these proceedings; is that right?
`·8· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I think I answered before
`10· ·about, you know, had I asked for any documents
`11· ·from -- from the attorneys, and I think I did not
`12· ·ask for any in particular, so that still applies
`13· ·here as well.
`14· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·There was nothing stopping you from
`16· ·asking counsel for these types of documents; is that
`17· ·correct?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·No, not -- nothing stopped me from
`19· ·asking counsel.
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·Let's take a look at this -- well, let
`21· ·me ask a background question.
`22· · · · · · · · You said you were familiar that
`23· ·entities like Apple and Microsoft and Google had
`24· ·guidelines for their interfaces.· I'm not trying to
`25· ·put words in your mouth, Professor Terveen.· I just
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`·1· ·want to reorient you.· You're familiar with those
`·2· ·general sets of documents?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm familiar that the companies like
`·4· ·that who provide -- provide systems with user
`·5· ·interfaces do have guidelines.
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·When you've ever seen those documents,
`·7· ·did you ever find anything to be wrong in them?
`·8· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`·9· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I'm not sure if
`10· ·I've ever found errors.· Sometimes there could be
`11· ·things that are a matter of opinion or best
`12· ·practices that people could disagree with, and
`13· ·sometimes they might have errors that slipped in,
`14· ·so --
`15· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·As we're sitting here today, you don't
`17· ·recall any of those specifically, correct?
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I don't recall specifically, no.
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you will flip with me to -- it's
`20· ·page 19 of the PDF.· Oh, it is also page 19 of the
`21· ·document in Exhibit 2021.
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I've flipped there.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And the headline says,
`24· ·"Introduction to Apple Human Interface Guidelines."
`25· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·And again -- and at the bottom of the
`·3· ·page it says -- there's a question that says, "What
`·4· ·Are the Apple Human Interface Guidelines?"
`·5· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, I see that.
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·And then the next sentence says, "This
`·8· ·document is the primary user interface documentation
`·9· ·for Mac OS X."
`10· · · · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And Mac OS X is the operating
`13· ·system on which you -- on which your opinions rely
`14· ·on in using the Aperture 3 system, correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it was a specific version or
`16· ·subversion or whatever, but, yes, that's right.
`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.· And the next sentence says in
`18· ·the -- in the Exhibit 2021 with respect to the Apple
`19· ·Human Interface Guidelines, it says, quote:
`20· · · · · · · · · It provides specific details
`21· · · · · · · · · about designing for Aqua
`22· · · · · · · · · compliance in mass -- excuse
`23· · · · · · · · · me -- in Mac OS X version
`24· · · · · · · · · 10.6, although some of the
`25· · · · · · · · · information may apply to
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`·1· · · · · · · · · previous versions of Mac OS X.
`·2· · · · · · · · Correct?
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, that's what it says.
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·And just for clarity, I'm going to ask
`·5· ·you to open up the '020 declaration, Exhibit 1003,
`·6· ·and flip to paragraph 75.
`·7· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I'm doing that.· And you said
`·8· ·the '020, correct?
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·Correct.
`10· · · · · ·A.· ·Okay.· I am -- I am there.
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And you'll see in paragraph 75
`12· ·and 76 that you installed Aperture 3 using a Mac
`13· ·laptop operating Mac OS X software version 10.6.3,
`14· ·correct?
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·That's -- that's correct, yes.
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And back to Exhibit 2021, the Apple
`17· ·Human Interface Guidelines document, the guidelines
`18· ·for -- were specifically for the version of Mac OS X
`19· ·that you used in installing Aperture in rendering
`20· ·your opinions in these matters, correct?
`21· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`22· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I'm sorry, that
`23· ·was -- got a little -- maybe a little too many
`24· ·clauses in there.· Could you rephrase that for me?
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`·1· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·Fair enough.· And I will break that
`·3· ·down.
`·4· · · · · · · · The guidelines, the human interface
`·5· ·guidelines in Exhibit 2021, cover the version of Mac
`·6· ·OS X that you used in installing Aperture 3 in
`·7· ·connection with your opinions in these four matters?
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·The -- right.· The version of the human
`·9· ·interface guidelines that you have here in
`10· ·Exhibit 2021 applies to -- it says, "Mac OS X
`11· ·Version 10.6," and that is the version of -- of Mac
`12· ·OS X that was on the laptop on which I installed
`13· ·Aperture.· That's -- that's correct.
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·Thank you, Professor Terveen.· Give me
`15· ·one second.· I'm trying to locate -- apologies,
`16· ·Professor Terveen.· I'm having a technical issue
`17· ·with my document.
`18· · · · · · · · On the next page of Exhibit 2021, which
`19· ·is page 20, it says under the heading, "Who Should
`20· ·Read This Document?"
`21· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·I see that heading, yes.
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·It says, quote:
`24· · · · · · · · · Anyone building applications
`25· · · · · · · · · for Mac OS X should read and
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`·1· · · · · · · · · become familiar with the
`·2· · · · · · · · · contents of this document.
`·3· · · · · · · · · This document combines
`·4· · · · · · · · · information on the mechanics
`·5· · · · · · · · · of designing a great user
`·6· · · · · · · · · interface with fundamental
`·7· · · · · · · · · software design principles and
`·8· · · · · · · · · information on leveraging Mac
`·9· · · · · · · · · OS X technologies.
`10· · · · · · · · Did I read that correctly?
`11· · · · · ·A.· ·You did read that correctly.
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·And so you would understand that this
`13· ·document would relate to designing user interfaces
`14· ·for applications such as Aperture 3, correct?
`15· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Scope.
`16· ·Foundation.
`17· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean, I -- I see
`18· ·what it says and I believe the people who wrote this
`19· ·believe that, that if you're building applications
`20· ·on Mac OS X that this document would have
`21· ·information that would be relevant to that.
`22· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·And the people who wrote this were
`24· ·Apple, correct?
`25· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Foundation.
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`·1· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry, I didn't quite
`·2· ·hear what you asked, that last question.
`·3· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·The people who wrote this are Apple,
`·5· ·correct?
`·6· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Same objection.
`·7· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I mean, I don't -- I
`·8· ·don't know who wrote it, but presumably Apple, you
`·9· ·know, commissioned the writing of it, even if it
`10· ·wasn't Apple employees, but, yeah.
`11· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·Well, it's published by Apple and
`13· ·they're the copyright owner of this, correct?
`14· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Foundation.
`15· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Apple is the copyright
`16· ·holder.· You showed me that before.· Yeah.
`17· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`18· · · · · ·Q.· ·You have no reason to believe that this
`19· ·wasn't published and prepared by Apple, do you?
`20· · · · · · · · MR. SMITH:· Objection.· Form.
`21· · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have any
`22· ·knowledge about that or -- yeah.
`23· ·BY MR. SCHWARTZ:
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you'll flip to page 23 of
`25· ·Exhibit 2021.
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