·1· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2021-01550
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`·4· · · · · · · · · Patent 10,950,300 B2
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`Page 1
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· ·MICRON TECHNOLOGY, INC.,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`10· ·VERVAIN, LLC,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION OF DR. DAVID LIU
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`15· · · · · · · ·San Francisco, California
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`16· · · · · · · · · · ·June 8, 2022
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·JOB NO. 211772
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`25· ·Reported by:· BONNIE PRUSZYNSKI, RMR, RPR, CLR
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.1
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
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`·2· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2021-01550
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`·4· · · · · · · · · Patent 10,950,300 B2
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`Page 1
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· ·MICRON TECHNOLOGY, INC.,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`10· ·VERVAIN, LLC,
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION OF DR. DAVID LIU
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`15· · · · · · · ·San Francisco, California
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`16· · · · · · · · · · ·June 8, 2022
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24· ·JOB NO. 211772
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`25· ·Reported by:· BONNIE PRUSZYNSKI, RMR, RPR, CLR
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.1
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`Page 2
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`·1
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·June 8, 2022
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·8:06 A.M.
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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`14· ·DR. DAVID LIU, held remotely from San Francisco,
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`15· ·California, before Bonnie Pruszynski, CSR No.
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`16· ·13064, a Registered Professional Reporter,
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`17· ·Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Livenote
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`18· ·Reporter, and Notary Public of the State of New
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`19· ·York.
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.2
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`Page 3
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`·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`·2
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`·3· ·ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP
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`·4· ·Attorneys for Claimant
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`·5· · · · · · ·1152 15th Street, N.W.
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`·6· · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20005
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`·7· ·BY:· · CHRISTOPHER CHILDERS, ESQ.
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`·8· · · · · · · JASON LANG, ESQ.
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`·9
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`10· ·McKOOL SMITH
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`11· ·Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`12· · · · ·1999 K Street, NW
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`13· · · · ·Washington, DC 20006
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`14· ·BY:· ARVIND JAIRAM, ESQ.
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`15· · · · · ·ALAN WHITEHURST, ESQ.
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.3
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
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`·1· · · · · · ·(Witness sworn.)
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`·2· ·DAVID LIU,
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`·3· · · · · ·called as a witness, having been first
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`·4· · · · · ·duly sworn, was examined and testified
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`Page 4
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`·5· · · · · ·as follows:
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`·6· ·EXAMINATION
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`·7· ·BY MR. JAIRAM:
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`·8· · · ·Q.· · Good morning, Dr. Liu.
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`·9· · · ·A.· · Good morning.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · Will you please state and spell
`
`11· ·your full name for the record?
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`12· · · ·A.· · Sure.· I would be happy to.· My
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`13· ·first name is David, D-A-V-I-D, and I also
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`14· ·have middle initial, which is Kuan-Yu,
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`15· ·spelled K-U-A-N hyphen Y-U, and last name is
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`16· ·L-I-U, Liu.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · Dr. Liu, what is your work address?
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`18· · · ·A.· · My work address is 42063 Benbow
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`19· ·Drive in Fremont, California, 94539.
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`20· · · ·Q.· · What is your current occupation and
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`21· ·job title, please?
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`22· · · ·A.· · I currently offer my time as an
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`23· ·expert witness and also do consulting work
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`24· ·and advisory work for various entities.
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`25· · · ·Q.· · Before we begin, I want to remind
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.4
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
`
`Page 5
`
`·1· ·you of some basic ground rules for this
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`·2· ·deposition.· You may already know this, but I
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`·3· ·will just repeat this for the sake of
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`·4· ·completeness.
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`·5· · · · · · ·You understand you have been placed
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`·6· ·under oath today, just as though you were in
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`·7· ·court?
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`·8· · · ·A.· · Yes, I do.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that you're bound
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`10· ·to answer my questions truthfully today?
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`11· · · ·A.· · Yes, I do.
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`12· · · ·Q.· · If a question is unclear, please
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`13· ·let me know so that I may rephrase as
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`14· ·necessary.· Otherwise, I will assume that you
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`15· ·understood my question.· Okay?
`
`16· · · ·A.· · Sounds good.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · Because your testimony is being
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`18· ·transcribed by the court reporter, do you
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`19· ·understand that you need to answer my
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`20· ·questions verbally instead of with gestures?
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`21· · · ·A.· · Yes, and I will try my best.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · Likewise, I'm going to try my best,
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`23· ·and I would ask that you do what you can so
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`24· ·that we can speak one at a time, to make the
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`25· ·court reporter's life easier.· Does that
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.5
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
`·1· ·sound good?
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`·2· · · ·A.· · That sounds good.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · In terms of breaks, we will be
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`·4· ·taking breaks during this deposition, but if
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`·5· ·you need one, let me know.· If a question is
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`·6· ·pending, I would request that you answer the
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`·7· ·question before requesting a break.· Okay?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· · Sure.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Any questions before we begin?
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`10· · · ·A.· · Not at the moment.
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`11· · · ·Q.· · Are you aware of any reason that
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`12· ·you are unable to answer my questions
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`13· ·truthfully today?
`
`14· · · ·A.· · No, I'm not aware of any reason.
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`15· · · ·Q.· · Are you taking any medications that
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`16· ·would prevent you from providing honest,
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`17· ·accurate, and complete answers?
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`18· · · ·A.· · No.
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`19· · · ·Q.· · Or any health conditions?
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`20· · · ·A.· · No.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that you have to
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`22· ·answer my questions even if your counsel
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`23· ·objects, unless he directly instructs you not
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`24· ·to answer?
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`25· · · ·A.· · Yes, I do.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.6
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · I would also like to caution you
`
`Page 7
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`·2· ·not to discuss the substance of your
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`·3· ·testimony during your breaks.· Okay?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · Yes.· I will abide by that.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Dr. Liu, is there anyone in the
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`·6· ·room with you today?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· · Only Jason is in the conference
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`·8· ·room with me today, Jason Lang.· He is the
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`·9· ·counsel.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any documents with you
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`11· ·in the room today, either electronic or hard
`
`12· ·copy?
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection.
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`14· · · · · · ·Dr. Liu, I caution you to not
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`15· · · ·provide any privileged communication.
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`16· · · ·A.· · Can you repeat the question?
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any documents with you
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`18· ·in the room today, either electronic or hard
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`19· ·copy?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · As Jason alluded to earlier, I was
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`21· ·provided a binder.· Because I couldn't
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`22· ·download the declarations, I was provided a
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`23· ·binder with my declaration without any -- any
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`24· ·notes or annotations.· It's just my
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`25· ·declaration in front of me.
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.7
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · Do you have any of the exhibits
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`·2· ·from the IPR proceeding IPR2021-01550 with
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`·3· ·you, apart from your declaration?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · I'm sorry.· I don't -- I don't know
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`·5· ·the numbers and what they correspond to, but
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`·6· ·for this depo, I will just be referring to my
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`·7· ·declaration in answering your questions.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I will be asking you
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`·9· ·questions in this deposition regarding
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`10· ·IPR2021-01550, which involves U.S. Patent
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`11· ·Number 10,950,300.· For convenience, I will
`
`12· ·refer to that patent as the '300 patent, and
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`13· ·I will refer to this IPR as the '300 patent
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`14· ·IPR or the '300 IPR.· Is that okay?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · That's fine.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that the '300
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`17· ·patent IPR is an IPR initiated by Micron
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`18· ·challenging the '300 patent, and Vervain is
`
`19· ·the patent owner in this IPR?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · Will you repeat the question again?
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that the '300
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`22· ·patent IPR is an IPR initiated by Micron
`
`23· ·challenging the '300 patent, and Vervain is
`
`24· ·the patent owner in this IPR?
`
`25· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to the
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.8
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 9
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`·1· · · ·form.
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`·2· · · ·A.· · I'm not sure what it means by
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`·3· ·"initiate," by the term, and I don't know --
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`·4· ·I'm not aware of any sequence.· I only know
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`·5· ·that a petition -- a petition was filed on
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`·6· ·the '300, and I am here to provide my opinion
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`·7· ·on that petition with my declaration.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· · That's fine.· I just want to make
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`·9· ·sure that you understand that the petitioner
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`10· ·in this IPR is Micron, and Vervain is the
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`11· ·patent owner, so if I refer to "petitioner"
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`12· ·or "patent owner," that you know which
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`13· ·parties I am referring to.
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`14· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that if I refer
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`16· ·to "petitioner," I am referring to Micron,
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`17· ·and if I refer to "patent owner," I'm
`
`18· ·referring to Vervain?
`
`19· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection, form.
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`20· · · ·A.· · I would assume that.· That's fine
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`21· ·with me for now.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· · You submitted a declaration for the
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`23· ·'300 patent IPR, which is Exhibit 1009 in the
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`24· ·'300 patent IPR; right?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · That's correct.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.9
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · And you mentioned that you have a
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`·2· ·copy of that declaration, Exhibit 1009, with
`
`Page 10
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`·3· ·you today?
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`·4· · · ·A.· · Yes, I do, and I believe that is
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`·5· ·per the agreement between the counsels.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · Does the Exhibit 1009 that you have
`
`·7· ·with you look to be a complete copy of your
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`·8· ·declaration?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · I have not had the chance to go
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`10· ·through it, since I just got it, and if I
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`11· ·check, at least on the appearance, it appears
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`12· ·to be -- to be the copy of my declaration.
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`13· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Could you just take a moment
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`14· ·and just look through it?· Since we are going
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`15· ·to be referring to it, I just want to make
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`16· ·sure that, you know, you have the document
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`17· ·that we will be referring to.
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`18· · · ·A.· · Just from a casual glance, it
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`19· ·appears that all the pages are here, and if
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`20· ·we get into the nitty-gritty and details, and
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`21· ·if I refer to some pages that are missing,
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`22· ·then I will let counsel know.
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`23· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And if at any point we need
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`24· ·to reference any of the exhibits other than
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`25· ·your declaration, I can provide them in the
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`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.10
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 11
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`·1· ·chat window.· Just please let me know if
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`·2· ·there is something that you need to look at,
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`·3· ·and I will provide it to you.· And likewise,
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`·4· ·if you happen to come across any other
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`·5· ·documents through any means during this
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`·6· ·deposition, please let myself and the court
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`·7· ·reporter and Mr. Childers know.· Okay?
`
`·8· · · · · · ·MR. LANG:· Arvind, this is Jason.
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`·9· · · ·I just handed him another binder that
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`10· · · ·maybe he can take a look through and see
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`11· · · ·if he can confirm that those are the
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`12· · · ·exhibits.
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`13· · · · · · ·MR. JAIRAM:· Okay.· Thank you.
`
`14· · · ·Does the other binder have all the
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`15· · · ·exhibits or some of the exhibits?
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Dr. Liu, when you need to
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`18· ·refer to any other exhibits other than the
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`19· ·declaration, and if you cannot find them in
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`20· ·the other binder that you apparently have
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`21· ·with you, please let me know, and I can get
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`22· ·you a copy through the chat window.· Okay?
`
`23· · · ·A.· · Sounds good.· Thank you.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · Apart from the two binders that I
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`25· ·believe you mentioned you have, Dr. Liu, do
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.11
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· ·you have any other notes with you in the
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`Page 12
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`·2· ·room?
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`·3· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection,
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`·4· · · ·privileged.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Dr. Liu, same caution that I gave
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`·6· · · ·you earlier about providing privileged
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`·7· · · ·communication.
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`·8· · · ·A.· · I don't have any material other
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`·9· ·than exhibits and my declaration, and I
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`10· ·believe the exhibits may also include the
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`11· ·'300 patent.
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`12· · · ·Q.· · Without telling me the substance of
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`13· ·any communications you may have had with
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`14· ·counsel, what did you do to prepare for your
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`15· ·deposition today, Dr. Liu?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection,
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`17· · · ·privileged.
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`18· · · · · · ·Same caution.
`
`19· · · ·A.· · I spent time reviewing my
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`20· ·declaration and the material, and I also
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`21· ·communicated, whether it's via Zoom meeting
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`22· ·or -- or in-person meeting, for discussion to
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`23· ·prepare for this deposition.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· · When was the meeting you had that
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`25· ·you mentioned?
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.12
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to
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`Page 13
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`·2· · · ·privilege.
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`·3· · · · · · ·Same caution.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · There were a few short one on Zoom,
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`·5· ·and also, I am trying to remember, a couple
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`·6· ·quick in-person, short in-person meeting.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· · Who was in attendance at those
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`·8· ·meetings?
`
`·9· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to
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`10· · · ·privilege.
`
`11· · · · · · ·Same caution.
`
`12· · · ·A.· · Just the -- Chris, Chris was there,
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`13· ·and Jason was there, and -- but also Parth,
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`14· ·but not at all the meetings, just in and out,
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`15· ·and also different meeting have different
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`16· ·participant due to different schedule.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · How many times have you been
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`18· ·retained as a consultant in litigations,
`
`19· ·Dr. Liu?
`
`20· · · ·A.· · Sitting right here, I -- sitting
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`21· ·right here, I don't -- I can't really recall,
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`22· ·but I believe it's all in my CV.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· · Are you referring to your CV in
`
`24· ·your Exhibit 1009?
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`25· · · ·A.· · 1009?
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.13
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 14
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`·1· · · ·Q.· · In your declaration.
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`·2· · · ·A.· · Give me one minute.
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`·3· · · · · · ·Can you repeat your question again?
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Is your CV in your declaration?
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`·5· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection, form.
`
`·6· · · ·A.· · I think a brief excerpt, a brief
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`·7· ·description of my experience was in that, in
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`·8· ·the Exhibit 1009.
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · I'm just trying to find what you
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`10· ·are referring to.· I note that paragraph five
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`11· ·of your declaration says that your CV is
`
`12· ·attached as Attachment A, but the declaration
`
`13· ·does not appear to have an Attachment A.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Can you please tell me where your
`
`15· ·CV is?
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
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`17· · · ·A.· · In paragraph five, it says my CV is
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`18· ·attached hereto as Attachment A.
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`19· · · ·Q.· · Yes, and I am trying to understand
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`20· ·where that is.· Do you know where
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`21· ·Attachment A is?· Because I do not see it in
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`22· ·the declaration.
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`23· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
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`24· · · ·A.· · I won't be able to tell you. I
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`25· ·assume it was communicated.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.14
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I will ask some additional
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`·2· ·questions about your background, because I do
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`Page 15
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`·3· ·not have a copy of your CV.· Okay?
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · Please.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · What percentage of the time would
`
`·6· ·you estimate you have been retained as a
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`·7· ·consultant in litigations by a patent owner
`
`·8· ·versus by an accused infringer or a
`
`·9· ·petitioner in an IPR?
`
`10· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`11· · · ·A.· · I am trying to do quick estimate,
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`12· ·but sitting right here, without having my CV
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`13· ·in front of me, I would not be able to
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`14· ·provide the most accurate answer, but suffice
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`15· ·to say, I work as a consultant.
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. JAIRAM:· I will ask counsel for
`
`17· · · ·Micron on the record if you can please
`
`18· · · ·provide a copy of the CV during the next
`
`19· · · ·break in the deposition.
`
`20· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· We will discuss it
`
`21· · · ·during the break.
`
`22· · · ·Q.· · Dr. Liu, have you written technical
`
`23· ·papers published in peer-reviewed journals or
`
`24· ·conferences?
`
`25· · · ·A.· · Yes, I have.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.15
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · Can you provide an estimate of
`
`Page 16
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`·2· ·approximately how many?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · I would say at least over ten
`
`·5· ·publications in very rigorous peer-reviewed
`
`·6· ·journals.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· · When was the last technical paper
`
`·8· ·or journal article that you wrote that was
`
`·9· ·published in a peer-reviewed journal or
`
`10· ·conference?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · ·A.· · I cannot recall right now, but I
`
`13· ·would mention that working in the industry, a
`
`14· ·lot of companies that I work for do not
`
`15· ·encourage publication of papers, but rather
`
`16· ·they prefer the employee to come up with
`
`17· ·innovation and become inventors of patent
`
`18· ·disclosure.· To that extent, I have -- I am
`
`19· ·inventor to close, if not over, 100 patents,
`
`20· ·U.S. patents.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · Have you written any technical
`
`22· ·papers on the subject of flash memory?
`
`23· · · ·A.· · Yes, I have.· Most definitely.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· · Can you tell me the time frame in
`
`25· ·which you wrote those papers that you are
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.16
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`Page 17
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`·1· ·referring to?
`
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · Again, I will mention that in terms
`
`·4· ·of technical paper publication, I believe --
`
`·5· ·I have to look at my -- refer to my CV to
`
`·6· ·provide a better answer, but I have been
`
`·7· ·inventors to patents all the way from the
`
`·8· ·start of my career all the way even until
`
`·9· ·now, and even most definitely during the
`
`10· ·period of 2005 to 2015, very prolific in
`
`11· ·terms of solving problems through innovation
`
`12· ·and come up with patents in the field of
`
`13· ·flash memory.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Have you ever implemented a cache
`
`15· ·in a memory system, Dr. Liu?
`
`16· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`17· · · ·A.· · I am not sure how you define
`
`18· ·"implement a cache."
`
`19· · · ·Q.· · Have you designed a cache in a
`
`20· ·memory system, Dr. Liu?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`22· · · ·A.· · I have been the key enabler in
`
`23· ·terms of development of flash memory which
`
`24· ·will be used in a memory system that would
`
`25· ·include cache.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.17
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
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`·1· · · ·Q.· · Did you have direct involvement
`
`·2· ·with the cache in the memory system that you
`
`Page 18
`
`·3· ·mentioned?
`
`·4· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·5· · · ·A.· · I would ask you to be very -- more
`
`·6· ·specific.· When you mention "cache," what do
`
`·7· ·you mean?· Of course, the cache -- the
`
`·8· ·conventional cache that people would know
`
`·9· ·that involve DRAM and SRAM, surely in my
`
`10· ·experience I have been involved with DRAM and
`
`11· ·SRAM as volatile memory as part of the memory
`
`12· ·system.
`
`13· · · · · · ·So, I would -- I would request for
`
`14· ·more specific characterization or specific
`
`15· ·questions that I can answer better.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · Did you work with a cache in a
`
`17· ·flash memory system?
`
`18· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · ·A.· · Again, as I have mentioned, the
`
`20· ·flash memory that I developed or enabled
`
`21· ·would be used in memory system that would
`
`22· ·involve many component, including cache that
`
`23· ·you facilitate the memory system for data
`
`24· ·storage.
`
`25· · · ·Q.· · You mentioned that the flash memory
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.18
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
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`Page 19
`
`·1· ·that you developed or enabled included
`
`·2· ·components including a cache.· Did you work
`
`·3· ·directly with the cache?
`
`·4· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·5· · · ·A.· · I'm sorry.· I'm really having
`
`·6· ·trouble understanding the word "directly."
`
`·7· ·Can you give example, what does it mean to
`
`·8· ·work directly?
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · I'm just trying to understand the
`
`10· ·nature of your role or experience.· Can you
`
`11· ·please tell me what you did regarding the
`
`12· ·cache in the system that you mentioned?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Can you please repeat the question?
`
`14· ·I mean, did I work directly on cache, it
`
`15· ·comes in many form.· It could be I developed
`
`16· ·technology to fabricate SRAM and fabricate
`
`17· ·DRAM, and that would be directly -- that
`
`18· ·would be used for cache, so that would be
`
`19· ·direct experience in cache.
`
`20· · · · · · ·So, it comes in many form, and
`
`21· ·suffice to say that being in the flash memory
`
`22· ·industry all these years, I am intimately
`
`23· ·familiar with the use of volatile memory as
`
`24· ·cache in a controller to facilitate the data
`
`25· ·storage of a memory system.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.19
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · Are you familiar with the use of a
`
`Page 20
`
`·2· ·non-volatile memory having a cache?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · Please repeat your question.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · Are you familiar with the use of a
`
`·5· ·non-volatile memory having a cache?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· · Am I familiar with the use of a
`
`·7· ·non-volatile memory with a cache?
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· · Right.· Are you familiar with the
`
`·9· ·use of a non-volatile memory having a cache?
`
`10· · · ·A.· · In the context of being part of a
`
`11· ·memory system, yes.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· · Did you design the cache in that
`
`13· ·memory system that you mentioned?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`15· · · ·A.· · Again, I refer again, the question
`
`16· ·of -- you say did I design.· Again, it comes
`
`17· ·in many form.· Nobody does everything, but I
`
`18· ·am -- in my career, the memory, flash memory,
`
`19· ·the application of flash memory that I worked
`
`20· ·on is used in memory system that would
`
`21· ·include volatile memory and cache in the
`
`22· ·controller, yes.
`
`23· · · ·Q.· · Could you give a percentage
`
`24· ·estimate of your experience with caches in
`
`25· ·non-volatile memory versus volatile memory?
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.20
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`Page 21
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`·1· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · Can you clarify your question?
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that caches can
`
`·4· ·be implemented in non-volatile memory or they
`
`·5· ·can be implemented instead in volatile
`
`·6· ·memory?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· · I think the best way to answer your
`
`·8· ·question is that cache is understood, the
`
`·9· ·word "cache" is understood by a POSA right
`
`10· ·away to be of volatile memory such as SRAM
`
`11· ·and DRAM.· There are cases where non-volatile
`
`12· ·memory is used in the context of cache, and
`
`13· ·each one has its own context.· We would have
`
`14· ·to address each context separately.
`
`15· · · ·Q.· · Is such an instance of a
`
`16· ·non-volatile memory implementing a cache
`
`17· ·described in your CV?
`
`18· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · ·A.· · Repeat the question again, please.
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · Is such an instance of a
`
`21· ·non-volatile memory implementing a cache
`
`22· ·described in your CV?
`
`23· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Same objection.
`
`24· · · ·A.· · Sitting right here, I do not -- I
`
`25· ·do not -- I would have to go back and review
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.21
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
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`·1· ·in more detail to be able to answer the
`
`Page 22
`
`·2· ·question accurately.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Does your CV, which as I mentioned
`
`·4· ·I do not currently have a copy of, is the CV
`
`·5· ·complete and thorough?
`
`·6· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·7· · · ·A.· · The CV will include all my
`
`·8· ·publications as well as patents, and of which
`
`·9· ·I would have to dig through to see the
`
`10· ·context, but suffice to say that
`
`11· ·conventionally, when one talks about cache,
`
`12· ·it's usually referred in terms of volatile
`
`13· ·memory such as DRAM or SRAM, and of course,
`
`14· ·there are incidents where other memory may be
`
`15· ·described in terms of cache, and we will have
`
`16· ·to adjust those within the context
`
`17· ·individually.
`
`18· · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's take a step back.· Can
`
`19· ·you please describe what is meant by a
`
`20· ·volatile memory?
`
`21· · · ·A.· · I believe I have that in my
`
`22· ·declaration, and I will just refer to my
`
`23· ·declaration for that.
`
`24· · · ·Q.· · Could you please refer me to a
`
`25· ·specific paragraph, just so we can provide
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.22
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
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`
`
`Page 23
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`·1· ·context for this surrounding discussion?
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · Let me get to that, please.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·In my declaration, I began
`
`·4· ·describing volatile memory, non-volatile
`
`·5· ·memory, and flash memory starting at
`
`·6· ·paragraph 42 -- excuse me -- on page 19 of my
`
`·7· ·declaration, which is Exhibit 1009.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· · And does the declaration describe
`
`·9· ·the use of non-volatile memory to implement a
`
`10· ·cache?
`
`11· · · ·A.· · I also in my declaration discuss
`
`12· ·cache or caching, and as is well known in the
`
`13· ·industry and by the POSA, cache or caching,
`
`14· ·the memory used for caching or the cache
`
`15· ·memory typically are discussed in terms of
`
`16· ·volatile memory, such as SRAM and DRAM.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · I understand, but can you please
`
`18· ·answer my question specifically.· Does your
`
`19· ·declaration describe the use of non-volatile
`
`20· ·memory to implement the cache?
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`22· · · ·A.· · If you refer to my declaration, the
`
`23· ·declaration states that SRAM and DRAM are the
`
`24· ·most typical memory used for cache, and I
`
`25· ·also mention that various memory types could
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.23
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
`·1· ·also be used.· So, to that extent, that is
`
`·2· ·the description I gave for cache memory.
`
`·3· · · ·Q.· · Are you referring to a specific
`
`·4· ·paragraph for what you just said about SRAM
`
`·5· ·and DRAM?
`
`·6· · · ·A.· · Yes, I am.
`
`·7· · · ·Q.· · Can you please tell me which
`
`·8· ·paragraph?
`
`·9· · · ·A.· · It is in paragraph 62, page 27 of
`
`10· ·my declaration.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · Do you have firsthand experience
`
`12· ·with the use of SRAM for caching?
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · ·A.· · Again, without knowing the context
`
`15· ·of what you meant by "firsthand," yes, I have
`
`16· ·experience with SRAM being a cache memory.
`
`17· · · ·Q.· · I will try and make my question
`
`18· ·clearer.
`
`19· · · · · · ·My computer has a cache in it. I
`
`20· ·use the computer.· I might even program
`
`21· ·something for my computer, but I wouldn't say
`
`22· ·that I have experience with the cache in it.
`
`23· · · · · · ·I'm asking you, Dr. Liu, do you
`
`24· ·have experience with implementing a cache in
`
`25· ·SRAM?
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.24
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
`·1· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · Again, I do not know your -- the
`
`·3· ·context of implementing.· For example,
`
`·4· ·implementing, does that mean according to the
`
`·5· ·fab and develop process, to work with the
`
`·6· ·transistor to configure SRAM memory cells
`
`·7· ·or -- or other scenario?
`
`·8· · · · · · ·But suffice to say, my use of SRAM,
`
`·9· ·experiencing and having worked with SRAM as
`
`10· ·cache is much more than you having a computer
`
`11· ·with SRAM as cache in it.· I think it's much
`
`12· ·more -- a little bit deeper than that.· But I
`
`13· ·do not know your context of "implementing."
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Is the disconnect or -- strike
`
`15· ·that.
`
`16· · · · · · ·Is the issue that you have with my
`
`17· ·question about the word "implement"?
`
`18· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`19· · · ·A.· · I do not know the context.· Again,
`
`20· ·using a familiar quote, it takes a village to
`
`21· ·do certain things, to implement a memory
`
`22· ·system, and as such, I have experience
`
`23· ·implementing memory system using flash memory
`
`24· ·in which SRAM or DRAM will be used as cache,
`
`25· ·and that's the --
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.25
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
`·1· · · ·Q.· · Is your --
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · And that is much deeper than -- I'm
`
`·3· ·sorry.· Go ahead.
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · No.· I'm sorry.· I thought you were
`
`·5· ·done.
`
`·6· · · ·A.· · That is much deeper than just
`
`·7· ·having my computer, my laptop having SRAM
`
`·8· ·within it in conjunction with other memory
`
`·9· ·and having the SRAM or DRAM serving as cache.
`
`10· ·I think it's deeper than that.
`
`11· · · · · · ·But in terms of implementing, there
`
`12· ·are many forms of implementing.· I do not
`
`13· ·know, when you say "implement," do I go into
`
`14· ·the fab, do I work with -- do I actually go
`
`15· ·through each different step using the
`
`16· ·processing equipment to fabricate a
`
`17· ·transistor on a wafer to facilitate SRAM or
`
`18· ·DRAM as cache?· It's a whole sequence going
`
`19· ·from fundamental basic material all the way
`
`20· ·into memory system.
`
`21· · · · · · ·So, the context would have to be
`
`22· ·which -- which step, which module along the
`
`23· ·way, which process step along the way of this
`
`24· ·memory system that you are referring to.
`
`25· · · ·Q.· · Can you please turn to
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.26
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
`·1· ·paragraph 138 of your declaration?
`
`·2· · · ·A.· · Before we begin that, is it okay to
`
`·3· ·take a bio break?· Would that be too early?
`
`·4· · · ·Q.· · No, that's fine.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. JAIRAM:· Counsel, can you
`
`·6· · · ·please get a copy of the declaration -- I
`
`·7· · · ·mean, sorry, the CV over to me in the
`
`·8· · · ·chat window during the break?
`
`·9· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Sure.· I think we
`
`10· · · ·have a copy, so I will put it in the
`
`11· · · ·window.
`
`12· · · · · · ·MR. JAIRAM:· Let's take a
`
`13· · · ·ten-minute break.· Thank you.
`
`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you for
`
`15· · · ·accommodating.· Appreciate it.
`
`16· · · · · · ·(Recess from 8:49 to 9:00 a.m.)
`
`17· ·BY MR. JAIRAM:
`
`18· · · ·Q.· · Dr. Liu, can you please turn to
`
`19· ·paragraph 138 of your declaration.
`
`20· · · ·A.· · 138?
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Can you please read aloud the
`
`23· ·second sentence of paragraph 138.
`
`24· · · ·A.· · Starting with "for example"?
`
`25· · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.27
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· · · ·A.· · "For example, it would have been
`
`Page 28
`
`·2· ·obvious to use RAM in conjunction with
`
`·3· ·Dusija's controller, and to implement
`
`·4· ·Dusija's cache as RAM."
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Can you please tell me what you
`
`·6· ·meant by "implement" in that second sentence
`
`·7· ·of paragraph 138?
`
`·8· · · ·A.· · It means to use RAM as cache in
`
`·9· ·Dusija's implementation, in Dusija's memory
`
`10· ·system.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · What does the word "implement"
`
`12· ·specifically mean?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · In the context here, it just means
`
`14· ·to use RAM as the cache in Dusija's
`
`15· ·controller.
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · With the same meaning of
`
`17· ·"implement" in that sentence of your
`
`18· ·paragraph 138, have you implemented cache in
`
`19· ·SRAM before?
`
`20· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`21· · · ·A.· · The memory system that used the
`
`22· ·flash memory that I facilitate or enable
`
`23· ·would use RAM as cache.· In that context,
`
`24· ·yes, implement.
`
`25· · · ·Q.· · Does your CV mention any work that
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.28
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
`
`·1· ·you did where you implemented a cache with
`
`Page 29
`
`·2· ·volatile memory?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · ·A.· · My CV indicated that I was one of
`
`·5· ·the first -- our group was the first
`
`·6· ·implementing a single power supply flash
`
`·7· ·memory, and it was through my invention that
`
`·8· ·enabled the memory to be manufactured, and
`
`·9· ·that memory is used in a memory system that
`
`10· ·will be applying RAM as cache.· In that
`
`11· ·context, I would say that yes in that
`
`12· ·context.
`
`13· · · ·Q.· · Which page of your CV are you
`
`14· ·referring to, please?
`
`15· · · ·A.· · For example, while working at
`
`16· ·Advanced Micro Devices from '92 to '95,
`
`17· ·that's one example where the flash memory
`
`18· ·that was developed in the memory system that
`
`19· ·would use cache.
`
`20· · · · · · ·And also, in my experience, I was
`
`21· ·the founder of a company called Progressant
`
`22· ·where we came up with a novel way of
`
`23· ·implementing SRAM with much fewer transistor
`
`24· ·and much simpler process, and that would be
`
`25· ·applied for a compact SRAM for -- as you
`
`Vervain Ex. 2015, p.29
`Micron v. Vervain
`IPR2021-01550
`
`
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`Page 30
`
`·1· ·know, that SRAM will be used for cache
`
`·2· ·purpose.· That would also be applicable for
`
`·3· ·cache, implementing cache in a memory system
`
`·4· ·or in any system.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · Let's take the AMD work that you
`
`·6· ·mentioned.· I believe you are referring to
`
`·7· ·pages six and seven of your CV.· Is that the
`
`·8· ·right portion of your CV that you are
`
`·9· ·referring to?
`
`10· · · ·A.· · That's one example, yes.
`
`11· · · ·Q.· · Does that portion of your CV
`
`12· ·mention anything about cache?
`
`13· · · · · · ·MR. CHILDERS:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · ·A.· · As I have been answering your
`
`15· ·question regarding implementing, again, the
`
`16· ·memory, the non-volatile memory that was
`
`17· ·enabled, was into a manufacturing product,
`
`18· ·would be used in the memory system that would
`
`19· ·include cache.· So, that's the extent I have
`
`20· ·been answering your question.
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · I understand that you were saying
`
`22· ·that a system can include a cac
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