Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`
`Date: May 19, 2022
`Case: Cradlepoint, Inc., et al. -v- 3G Licensing S.A. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
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`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

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`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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` REMOTE APPEARANCES
`On behalf of Petitioner Sierra Wireless, Inc.:
` PERKINS COIE LLP
` DANIEL T. KEESE, ESQ.
` AMANDA TESSAR, ESQ.
` 1120 NW Couch Street
` Portland, Oregon 97209
`206-359-8888
`
`On behalf of Petitioner Thales DIS AIS Deutschland
`GmbH:
` ADDYHART P.C.
` ROBERT P. HART, ESQ.
` GREGORY B. GULLIVER, ESQ.
` 401 N Michigan Avenue, Suite 1200-1
` Chicago, Illinois 60611
` 312-320-4200
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ________________________________
`
` CRADLEPOINT, INC., HONEYWELL INTERNATIONAL, INC.,
`
` SIERRA WIRELESS, INC., TCL COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`HOLDINGS LIMITED, TCT MOBILE INTERNATIONAL LIMITED, TCT
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` MOBILE, INC., TCT MOBILE (US) INC., TCT MOBILE (US)
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` HOLDINGS INC., AND THALES DIS AIS DEUTSCHLAND GMBH,
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` Petitioner,
`
` v.
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` 3G LICENSING S.A.,
`
` Patent Owner
`
` ________________________________
`
` PTAB Case No. IPR2021-01141
`
` Patent No. 7,215,653
`
` ________________________________
`
` Deposition of TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.
`
` Conducted Virtually
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` Thursday, May 19, 2022
`
` Denver, Colorado
`
` Commencing at 9:01 a.m. MST
`
` Job No.: 448438
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` Reported by: Melanie Giamarco, RMR, CRR, RPR
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` Deposition of TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.,
`conducted virtually.
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` PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the deposition of TODOR
`COOKLEV, Ph.D., was taken on behalf of the
`Petitioner on Thursday, May 19, 2022, commencing at
`9:01 a.m. MST, before Melanie L. Giamarco,
`Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime
`Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter and
`Notary Public within Colorado, appearing remotely
`from Jefferson County, Colorado.
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` REMOTE APPEARANCES (Continued):
`On behalf of Patent Owner 3G Licensing S.A., and
`Dr. Cooklev:
` DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
` NEIL A. BENCHELL, ESQ.
` CHRISTOPHER R. CLAYTON, ESQ.
` 1526 Gilpin Avenue
` Wilmington, Delaware 19806
`302-449-9010
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

`

`2 (5 to 8)
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`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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` I N D E X
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` PAGE
`
`EXAMINATION OF TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.
`May 19, 2022
`By Mr. Keese 7
` E X H I B I T S
`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent Number 7,215,653 16
`Exhibit 1003 Effective Reverse Link Data 81
` Rate Control for 1xEV-DV-r2
` Samsung
`Exhibit 1004 Per-User Reverse Rate Control 81
` for Shared Packet Data
` Channel in 1xEV-DV
` Airvana
`Exhibit 1006 Physical Layer Standard for 82
` cdma2000 Spread Spectrum
` Systems
`Exhibit 2002 Declaration of Todor Cooklev, 72
` Ph.D., in Support of Patent
` Owner's Preliminary Response
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`6
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`A. No.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) No medical condition; is
`that right?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`A. No.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) You're not on any
`medications that might interfere with your memory
`or your ability to testify?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to form.
`A. No.
`0
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Great. And is it
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`correct that you're not on any drugs or alcohol
`12
`that would affect your memory or understanding as
`13
`well?
`14
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form of the
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`question.
`16
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`A. That is correct.
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`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Great. Dr. Cooklev,
`18
`what is a reverse rate indicator?
`19
`
`A. I believe I can answer your question.
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`It's -- I was just, if you will, collecting my
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`thoughts. Since I want to here, maybe at the
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` TODOR COOKLEV, Ph.D.,
`after having been duly remotely sworn, was examined
`and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. KEESE:
`Q. Dr. Cooklev, can you please state your
`full name for the record?
`A. Todor Cooklev.
`Q. And where are you currently located?
`A. I'm located at my home office.
`Q. And where is that?
`A. The exact address is 1336 Sycamore Hills
`
`Parkway, Fort Wayne, Indiana.
`Q. Okay. Is there anyone else in the room
`with you there?
`
`A. No.
`Q. Will you let me know if that changes?
`A. I will. And it's -- I do not -- it's
`
`not going to change.
`Q. Okay. Understood.
`And are you currently in contact with
`
`
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`anybody electronically via phone or any type of
`messaging application?
`A. No, I am not.
`Q. And you don't have your e-mail open; is
`that correct?
`A. That is correct.
`Q. Great. Do you have any documents
`related to the case in front of you?
`A. No, I do not.
`Q. And is it your understanding,
`Dr. Cooklev, that you are here today to testify as
`an expert in IPR 2021-01141 concerning U.S. patent
`number 7,215,653?
`
`A. Yes.
`Q. And I may refer to this patent as the
`'653 patent.
` Will you understand if I refer to it as the
`'653 patent?
`
`A. Yes.
`Q. Great. Is there any reason that you
`cannot testify truthfully today, Dr. Cooklev?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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`beginning, clarify that my memory isn't -- isn't
`perfect. So I'm not going to be relying on my
`memory in answering your questions.
` To answer your question, since this is
`something that is described in the very first
`provisional application, maybe we can -- one
`document that I could take a look is that first
`provisional application.
` Q. So without looking --
` A. As well as -- as well as the '653
`patent.
` Q. So, Dr. Cooklev, is it correct that you
`can't describe what an RRI is without consulting
`the provisional or the '653 patent?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. I'm not sure that is correct. I want
`to -- I'm under oath right now, and I want to give
`you an accurate description of an RRI in the
`context of the '653 patent. And that's why I think
`it is best if I look at the provisional in the
`patent.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) And is it fair to say
`
`3 (9 to 12)
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` A. Not right now. I don't recall.
` Q. Are you aware of what the first standard
`to use an RRI was?
` A. I mean, if this -- this is an opinion
`that I have offered. Also, we can -- we can look
`at my declaration and that part of the declaration,
`but otherwise, I'm just not going to be guessing
`what was the first standard.
` Q. Do you know if RRIs were in any standard
`before the provisional application you reference in
`your declaration?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form. And I'm
`just going to caution the witness not to speculate.
` A. Do I know -- well, the RRI is -- here's
`what I can tell you based on my memory, is
`something that is referenced in the first
`provisional application that later led to the '653
`patent. And the RRI provides support for one of
`the claim elements. So I can tell you that based
`on my memory.
` But whether the acronym RRI appears in a
`standard before, I -- I don't recall right now
`
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`that reverse rate indicators are also referred to
`as RRIs?
` A. I mean, that's what, generally, the
`acronym stands for.
` Q. And so what was the first time that you
`heard of an RRI?
` A. I don't remember.
` Q. And is it correct that you knew of RRIs
`before this case?
` A. It's -- it's possible that I have seen
`RRIs before this case.
` Q. Do you have any recollection of seeing
`RRIs before this case?
` A. I don't remember.
` Q. And do you have any specific
`recollection of understanding what an RRI is before
`this case began?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to form.
` A. I'm not sure I understand.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Did you have any
`specific recollection of knowing what an RRI is
`before this case began?
`
`offering an opinion about that, so I'm -- but if I
`have, maybe we can also -- or you can point me to
`that part of my declaration.
` Q. So are you aware of whether RRIs were
`available in a standard before the provisional
`application?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Again, sitting here today, I don't
`recall -- I don't recall this being even relevant.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So Dr. Cooklev, is it
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`your contention that RRIs were invented and first
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`disclosed -- sorry. Strike that.
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` Is it your contention, then, that RRIs were
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`first disclosed by the provisional application that
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`you referenced?
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` MR. BENCHELL: Object to form.
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` A. Well, you said in your question "RRIs."
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`And I don't think I've offered an opinion that all
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`possible RRIs were claimed were invented in that --
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`in describing that first provisional application.
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`But the provisional application invented a type of
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`RRI.
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
`13
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) What type of RRI did the
`provisional application invent?
` A. Well, an indication -- it provides an
`indication whether the mobile station has data and
`power. And again, I'm just -- since I don't have
`any documents here in front of me, so I am just
`answering just based on my recollection, but so as
`a general idea, maybe my -- I'm not quoting
`exactly, but it's generally here, that's the type,
`RRI that was invented and described in the first
`provisional application.
` Q. Were RRIs used in the CDMA2000
`standards?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. And again, if this -- if I have offered
`an opinion like that in my declarations, then we
`can talk about it. I don't recall even thinking
`that that was -- I don't recall even that question
`being relevant, but as I said, we can look at my
`declarations.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So as you sit here
`today, is it true that you're not able to tell me
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` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Well, I -- again, just based on my
`recollections, right now, I am not going to be
`guessing.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Are the RRIs discussed
`in the '653 patent conventional RRIs?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Well, to be able to answer your
`question, I'll -- I will need to look at the '653
`patent.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So have you offered an
`opinion that the RRIs in the '653 patent were a new
`invention?
` A. The RRI that was described in the first
`provisional application is a new type RRI. And I
`recall -- I recall offering, as a general idea,
`offering an opinion like that. Again, we can look
`at -- we can look at my declarations which contain
`my opinions, so that's it.
` Q. Is the RRI in the '653 patent the same
`RRI that's in the provisional?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`
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` A. Well, let's take a look at the '653
`whether RRIs were used in the HDR standard?
`patent.
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. I mean, as I said, I'm just not going to
` MR. KEESE: Okay. I am going to transfer
`be essentially just guessing. And like I said,
`the '653 patent into the chat, assuming I get this
`I -- to the best of my recollection right now, I
`right. This should be Exhibit 1001 in the IPR of
`did not think that was even relevant. And I think
`the '653 patent.
`I didn't write about this in my declaration, so I'm
` (Exhibit 1001 was digitally marked for
`not going to guess now.
`identification.)
` A. Yes, I got it. And with your
` (Reporter clarification.)
`permission, I will download it and open this file.
` MR. KEESE: We can go off the record for --
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` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Absolutely. Please do.
`let's just do five minutes.
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`Can you let me know when you have it open?
` (Recess taken from 9:16 a.m. until
`12
` A. I have it open. I am looking at this --
`9:23 a.m.)
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`I am looking at the '653 patent right now.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Dr. Cooklev, were RRIs
`14
` Q. Great.
`used in 1xEV-DV systems?
`15
` Dr. Cooklev, can you point me to where this
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to form.
`16
` A. You know, that's a -- that is a detailed
`patent describes an RRI?
`17
` A. If we look at the claims of the '653
`question that's -- you know, again, I'm not going
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`patent, the -- let's -- and, in particular, look at
`to essentially guess right now or rely on my
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`claim 34, the last limitation of this claim
`memory, so I don't -- I don't remember right now.
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`requires a bit to be sent from the mobile station
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So you don't know
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`to the base station. And in particular, this bit
`whether RRIs were used in 1xEV-DV systems?
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
`17
`is required to indicate whether the mobile station
`has enough power and data to increase its data
`transmission rate.
` And this is described in the provisional
`application. And by "provisional," I mean the
`first provision. It is described using the -- what
`the first provisional calls an RRI.
` And I should -- and I want to clarify that
`I'm not -- I'm not a lawyer, so my understanding
`here of the law comes from counsel. And in
`particular, I have understood from counsel that the
`provisional application does not have to use the
`exact words as in the claim as long as the concept
`is there. And this is -- this is what -- this is
`the case. The concept is there.
`Q. Is the concept described in the
`specification of the '653 patent anywhere?
`
`A. Excuse me?
`Q. Is the concept of an RRI described in
`this patent specification anywhere?
`
`A. The acronym does appear.
`Q. Can you point me to where?
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`specification, excuse me.
`Q. So as you sit here right now, is it
`correct that you're not aware of any other
`description of an RRI in the patent specification
`of the '653 patent other than at column 9, lines 56
`to 65?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to form.
`A. I don't think that's correct.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. What other
`description of the RRI in the '653 patent are you
`aware of?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`A. Well, as a general idea -- I'm still
`
`looking at the patent, but as a general idea, when
`the '653 patent talks about the mobile station
`providing an indication whether it has sufficient
`power and data, this indication can be provided --
`is an indication on the reverse link, and can be
`provided with a type of RRI.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Would it surprise you if
`the only mention of a reverse -- sorry.
` Would it surprise you if the only instance
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`of a reverse-rate indicator or RRI being mentioned
`in this patent is at column 9, lines 56 to 65?
`A. No, it would not surprise me.
`Q. So the patent describes an RRI at the
`Q. Do you think that's correct?
`paragraph beginning at column 9, line 56; is that
`A. I mean, you mean by that, you --
`correct?
`Q. Do you think it's correct that the only
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`A. The patent specification describes an
`mention of a reverse rate indicator, or RRI, is at
`RRI in this column 9, beginning line 56.
`column 9, lines 56 to 65 of this patent?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. Is there any
`A. Well, the patent says what it says. The
`
`other discussion of RRIs in the specification of
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`specification says what it says.
`the '653 patent?
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`A. Just to explain what I am doing, I am
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) And to your knowledge,
`12
`reading the '653 patent.
`does the specification at any other part of the
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`patent mention a reverse rate indicator, or RRI?
`Q. Maybe I can ask it this way.
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`A. Well, the claims mention an indicator.
`Are you aware of any other description of an
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`The claims mention a bit to indicate whether the
`RRI in the specification of the '653 patent other
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`mobile station has enough power and data.
`than at column 9, lines 55 -- or 56 to 65?
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`A. It would be easier if you -- if you,
`Q. Would you agree that the claims do not
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`counsel, can point me to my declaration. If
`use the term "reverse rate indicator" or "RRI"?
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`there's a paragraph there, or if this is related to
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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`A. And I'm looking at the claims. They
`
`a paragraph, that'll be easier rather than me going
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`require a few claims.
`through the -- going through the patent, the patent
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`A. Column 9, the passage starting from line
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`56.
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
`
`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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`patent describe an increase available bit anywhere?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Where?
` A. Just a second. For example, in column
`14, beginning with line 3.
` Q. And looking at column 14, beginning at
`line 3, does this describe setting A, increased
`available bit, based upon three conditions?
` A. A little more accurately, it says, "if
`any one of these conditions." And there are three
`conditions.
` Q. And is one of those conditions whether
`the transmission power margin is above a certain
`level?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So does that correspond to whether there
`is sufficient power to increase the data
`transmission rate?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And looking at condition two, is that
`whether there are enough bits in the transmission
`buffer such that there's sufficient data to
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` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Yeah, let me actually
`rephrase that, Dr. Cooklev, because I don't want
`you to look at the claims that aren't at issue in
`the IPR.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So looking at claims 34 to 40, do any of
`those claims use the term "reverse rate indicator"?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. No.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Do any of claims 34 to
`40 recite an RRI?
` MR. BENCHELL: Same objection.
` A. They don't use the RRI acronym.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. Dr. Cooklev, what
`is an increase availability bit?
` A. So if you mean the mobile station rate
`increase available bit as -- as it appears in the
`specification, is that what you -- is that what you
`mean?
` Q. Is the mobile station rate increase
`available bit an increase available bit?
` A. It is an increase available bit.
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` Q. Okay. And are those also referred to as
`IABs?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is the mobile station increase available
`bit, or IAB, described in the first Korean
`provisional application?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So is it your testimony that the
`earliest Korean provisional application uses the
`term "increase available bit"?
` A. Not exactly.
` Q. Okay. What is your testimony, then,
`that the earliest Korean provisional application
`describes an increase available bit?
` A. It includes the -- it describes the
`concept of an increase available bit.
` Q. So where does the '653 patent describe
`the concept of an increase available bit?
` A. I mean, the -- in the claims, it's -- it
`appears, for example, as the last limitation of
`claim 34.
` Q. Does the specification of the '653
`
`increase the data transmission rate?
` A. Yes. The number of bits in the
`transmission buffer being above a certain level is,
`like, whether there's enough bits or enough data.
` Q. Okay. Does the '653 specification
`describe setting the RRI based upon whether there
`is sufficient power margin or sufficient data or
`bits in the buffer?
` A. I mean, clearly, the specification is
`the specification. I mean, it's -- I'm not going
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`declarations.
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` Q. Dr. Cooklev, how many times have you
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`reviewed the specification of the '653 patent?
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` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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` A. Quite a few times.
`17
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) More than five?
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` A. Yes.
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` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Did you review it more
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`than ten times?
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
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`

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`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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` MR. BENCHELL: Same objection.
` A. I mean, that's -- I don't exactly
`remember, but it's possible.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Did you review it less
`than 25 times?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form, counsel.
` A. It's just -- I don't count how many
`times I have reviewed it. I have -- I never
`counted, so I don't have a record of that.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. But is it fair to
`say you've reviewed this specification several
`times?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Yes.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) And having reviewed the
`specification several times, can you point me to
`anywhere in the '653 specification that describes
`setting the RRI based upon whether there is
`sufficient power margin or sufficient data or bits
`in the buffer?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Well, the specification is more detailed
`26
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`7 (25 to 28)
`
`27
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`that the RRI can be multiple bits rather than a
`single bit?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. I think that's -- that that's possible.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Are there any other
`differences between an RRI and an increase
`available bit?
` A. You know, I'm not sure, beyond that,
`that I have studied this issue to be able to give
`you an answer right now. But again, I don't
`remember everything from -- or actually, I --
`sitting here right now, I remember nothing from my
`declaration, so maybe I can take a look.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Did you review your
`declaration in preparing for this deposition?
` A. I did.
` Q. But you remember nothing about it; is
`that right?
` A. I just don't want to, you know, just
`here give you answers based on my memory. It will
`be better if I take a look.
` Q. So is your testimony today that the
`
`than the first provisional. So the first
`provisional application has the concept in it, and
`now the specification of the '653 patent is more
`detailed. So the RRI in the provisional
`application provides support for the increase
`available bit.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Dr. Cooklev, is there
`any difference between an RRI and an increase
`available bit?
` A. The RRI is at least a bit. Could be
`more than a bit. So in this sense, it seems to me,
`is more general.
` Q. I'm sorry. I'm not sure that you
`answered the question.
` Is there any difference between an RRI and
`an increase available bit?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. I believe I answered your question by
`saying that the RRI is at least a bit. And the
`increase available bit is a bit. So in this sense,
`the RRI is more general.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So is the difference
`
`28
`difference between an RRI and an increase available
`bit is that an RRI can be multiple bits, but the
`increase available bit is a single bit?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form;
`mischaracterizes.
` A. Well, in terms of information content,
`in other words, in terms of number of bits, yes.
`But because the RRI is at least -- at least a bit,
`it could be -- it could convey possibly other
`things.
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` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Is the RRI being
`11
`possibly multiple bits and the IAB being a single
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`bit the only difference between RRIs and IABs that
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`you can think of as you sit here right now?
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` MR. BENCHELL: Objection; asked and
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`answered.
`16
` A. I'm not going to make an analysis right
`17
`now, so -- so without, again, my declarations or
`18
`anything, I mean, that's as much as I can say.
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` Q. (By Mr. Keese) So is the answer, then,
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`no, you cannot recall any other difference between
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`RRIs and IABs except that the RRI can be multiple
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1020
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
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`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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`bits while the IAB is a single bit?
` MR. BENCHELL: Objection; mischaracterizes
`prior testimony.
` A. I mean, right now, I -- again, I don't
`recall.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Is your testimony, then,
`that you cannot recall any other difference?
` MR. BENCHELL: Objection; asked and
`answered, mischaracterizes.
` A. Yes.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. Is there any
`description in the '653 patent of setting the RRI
`value based upon the transmission power margin?
` MR. BENCHELL: I'm sorry. Can you please
`repeat the question, Ms. Giamarco?
` (The last question was read back.)
` MR. BENCHELL: Thank you.
` A. Well, you said the RRI. Which RRI?
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) The RRI in the '653
`patent. I guess I'm confused, Dr. Cooklev.
` Are there multiple RRIs?
` MR. BENCHELL: Are you withdrawing the
`
`8 (29 to 32)
`
`31
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`type of indicator for the reverse channel?
` A. I mean, a type of indicator that is used
`to determine the rate, yeah, could be an RRI.
` Q. So I still don't think you've answered
`the question.
` Is an MS IAB an RRI?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. It is a type of RRI.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Okay. Where does the
`'653 patent describe an MS IAB as a type of RRI?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. Well, by -- in column 14, for example,
`by describing what the MS IAB is, or accomplishes,
`yeah, a person of skill would understand that this
`is a type of RRI.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) What other types of RRIs
`are there?
` A. Other types of RRIs? Well, I don't
`know.
` Q. So you've mentioned several times that
`an IAB could be a type of RRI.
` What other types of RRIs are you aware of?
`
`32
`
` A. I think that's -- that's too broad for
`previous question, counsel?
`me to just -- too broad of a question, in other
` MR. KEESE: I'll strike the previous
`words, for me right now to think other types. You
`question.
`know, I -- I can't answer this right now.
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Dr. Cooklev, are there
` Q. Okay. Can you think of any other types
`multiple RRIs?
`of RRIs? Any examples?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
` A. I mean, there could be, yes.
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form; asked and
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Does the '653 patent
`answered.
` A. Well, I can think of an example. The
`describe multiple RRIs?
` A. Well, the increase available bit is a
`RRI that is described in the first provisional
`0
`type of indicator for the reverse channel. It's a
`application is an indicator of fully reverse link.
`11
`type of indicator. It indicates, as this here
`And it indicates, based on the disclosure in that
`12
`describes in column 14, indicates whether there's
`first provisional application, it indicates whether
`13
`sufficient power, in other words, power is above a
`the mobile station has enough power and data. So
`14
`certain level, and whether there is enough data, or
`that's a type of RRI.
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`in other words, the number of bits in the
` Q. (By Mr. Keese) Are there any other
`16
`transmission buffer is above a certain level. So
`types of RRIs disclosed in the '653 patent?
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`it is an indicator on the reverse channel.
` MR. BENCHELL: Objection; asked and
`18
` Q. Is the MS IAB an RRI?
`answered.
`19
` A. Well, it's a type of an indicator for
` A. You know, I don't think I've offered
`20
`the reverse channel.
`this opinion. And even though I've read the patent
`21
`a number of times, you know, if I have not offered
` Q. Is it your testimony that an RRI is any
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`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-01141
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`

`

`Transcript of Todor Cooklev, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 19, 2022
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`9 (33 to 36)
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`the provisional application the same RRI that's in
`the '653 patent?
`A. Well, the patent specification of the
`'653 patent includes, as we were just discussing,
`includes increase available bit. And this is part
`of the RRI in the provisional application.
`Q. So are there any differences between the
`RRI described in the provisional application and
`the RRI described in the '653 patent?
`
`A. Well, the RRI in the provisional is a
`general concept. It is a new concept, and it is a
`general concept.
`Q. What is the new concept in the RRI of
`the provisional application?
`
`A. Well, the new concept is an indicator
`which provides information that could be used by
`the base station, and so that's the -- and
`information that has to do with the mobile station
`having power, or having data to transmit.
` MR. KEESE: Okay. I think we are at 12:30,
`so I think -- I promised to get you out to lunch
`for 45 minutes, so we'll see you at 1:15, I
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`this opinion, I'm just not going to be able to
`offer an informed opinion right now.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) So I think you said that
`the RRI described in the first provisional
`application is another type of RRI other than an
`IAB; is that right?
`A. I don't think that that's exactly right,
`because the -- it accomplishes -- it's of the same
`type that's the IAB.
`Q. So is it your testimony, then, that the
`RRI described in the provisional application is an
`IAB?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`A. I'll say that it includes an IAB, not
`
`just that it is, but it does include an IAB, yes.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) What else would that RRI
`potentially include?
`
`A. I'm not sure I have analyzed that.
`Q. Does the '653 patent describe the form
`of an RRI?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form; asked and
`answered.
`
`36
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`34
`A. The form? What do you mean by "the
`form"?
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Does it describe
`everything that's included as part of the RRI?
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
`A. "Everything that is included as part."
`I -- I don't understand what RRI -- I don't
`understand the question.
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Does the '653 patent
`describe a new type of RRI?
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` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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`A. The RRI described in the first
`
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`provisional application is a new RRI, yes. And I
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`will -- I will answer, maybe the -- maybe we have
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`time for one more question, but I see that --
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`Q. (By Mr. Keese) 12:30 is coming.
`16
`A. Is coming, yes.
`17
`MR. BENCHELL: Yeah, I think we've gone well
`18
`beyond our last break, but -- an hour beyond our
`19
`last break, but we'll defer to Dr. Cooklev to see
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Does provisional
`20
`how he wants to proceed.
`application 2001-0006839 describe an RRI?
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`Q. (By Mr. Keese) Is the RRI described in
` MR. BENCHELL: Object to the form.
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`believe --
` THE WITNESS: Thank you.
` MR. KEESE: -- your time.
` (Recess taken from 10:30 a.m. until
`11:15 a.m.)
`Q. (By Mr. Keese) I'm going to send you
`Exhibit 1011, Dr. Cooklev. Can you tell me when
`you have that open?
`A. Yes, I have it.
`Q. And what is Exhibit 1011?
`A. This is a Korean patent application
`
`dated February 12, 2001.
`Q.