In The Matter Of:
`NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC, v.
` Et Al
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD.
`
`MAGNUS GOERTZ
`June 2, 2022
`
`Original File witness Magnus Goertz - June 2_2022 Thursday (1).txt
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 1 of 186
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`NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC, v.
` Et Al
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD.
`
`MAGNUS GOERTZ
`June 2, 2022
`
`Original File witness Magnus Goertz - June 2_2022 Thursday (1).txt
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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`Page 1 of 186
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` 1
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` 3
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` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`
` WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
`
` WACO DIVISION
`
`1
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` 5
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` 6
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` 7
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` 8
`
` 4 ______________________________
` NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC,
` )
` )
` Plaintiff,)
` ) Civil Action No.
` ) 6:20-cv-00507
` v. )
` )
` )
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD. )
` 9 and SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
` )
` AMERICA, INC.,
` )
` Defendants.)
` ______________________________)
`
`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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` NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC,
`
` )
` )
` Plaintiff,)
` ) Civil Action No.
` ) 6:20-cv-00505
` v. )
` )
` )
` APPLE INC., )
` Defendant.)
` ______________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION OF
`
` MAGNUS GOERTZ
`
` Thursday, June 2, 2022
`
` at 9:26 a.m.
`
`23
`
` Reported by:
`24 SHERRY YAN,
` RPR, California CSR No. 14442
`25 Job No. 5183794
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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`2
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
`
`
` 2
`
`
` 3 Judge Jakob Hedenmo, Stockholm District Court
`
` 4
`
` 5 For Plaintiff:
`
` 6 HAGENS BERMAN SOBOL SHAPIRO LLP
` BY: PHILIP J. GRAVES
` 7 301 North Lake Avenue, Suite 920
` Pasadena, CA 91101
` 8 Telephone: (213) 330-7147
` Facsimile: (213) 330-7152
` 9 E-mail: philipg@hbsslaw.com
`
`10
` ADVOKATFIRMAN LINDAHL KB
`11 BY: DAVID ACKEBO
` BY: ERIK OREHALL
`12 Nybrogatan 17
` 114 39 Stockholm, Sweden
`13 E-mail: erik.Orehall@lindahl.se
`
`14
`
`15
` For Defendants Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Samsung
`16 Electronics America, Inc.:
` DLA PIPER LLP
`17 BY: Zachary Loney
` 401 Congress Avenue, Suite 2500
`18 Austin, TX 78701-3799
` E-mail: zachary.loney@us.dlapiper.com
`19
`
`20 ADVOKATFIRMAN DLA PIPER SWEDEN KB
` BY: Karl Oscar Dalin
`21 BY: Anton Sahlén
` Sveavägen 4, 103 90
`22 Stockholm, Sweden
`
`23
`
`24
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`25
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`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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`Page 3 of 186
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` 1 (cont...)
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` 2 For Defendant Apple, Inc.:
`
`
` 3 FISH & RICHARDSON PC
` BY: BETTY H. CHEN
` 4 Betty H. Chen
` 111 Congress Avenue, Suite 810
` 5 Austin, TX 78701
` Email: bchen@fr.com
` 6
`
` 7 HANNES SNELLMAN
` BY: PONTUS EWERLÖF
` 8 103 96 Stockholm, Sweden
` Mobile: +46 760 000 013
` 9 E-mail: pontus.ewerlof@hannessnellman.com
`
`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
` Also present:
`14 Mr. Johan Mattson, Stockholm District Court
` Mr. Vadim Belenky, Swedish Interpreter
`15 Mr. P-M Heinemann, Swedish Interpreter
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`20
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`25
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`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 I N D E X
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`
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` 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`
` MAGNUS
` 3 GOERTZ Mr. Graves - Direct 5
` Ms. Chen - Cross 115
` 4 Mr. Loney - Cross 149
` Mr. Graves - Redirect 159
` 5 Ms. Chen - Recross 161
`
` 6
` E X H I B I T S
` 7
` (All exhibits were marked and retained by
` 8 counsels Mr. Graves and Ms. Chen.
` The court reporter did not have sight of all
` 9 exhibits.)
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
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`5
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` 1 Thursday, June 2, 2022
`
` 2 9:26 a.m.
`
` 3 (All Swedish speakers speak through
`
` 4 Interpreter unless otherwise noted.)
`
` 5 MR. GRAVES: I believe the witness -- let's
`
` 6 ask the witness is he more comfortable --
`
` 7 INTERPRETER HEINEMANN: Yes, he wants it
`
` 8 interpreted into Swedish.
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` 9 INTERPRETER BELENKY: Simultaneously or
`
`10 consecutively? So you ask the question in English, and
`
`11 we interpret in Swedish or we can --
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`12 MR. GRAVES: If it works for the witness,
`
`13 that's fine with me.
`
`14 (Witness was then sworn in with the Swedish
`
`15 oath by Judge Hedenmo.)
`
`16 JUDGE HEDENMO: Take the minutes that the
`
`17 witness has been reminded under Item 16 the right not to
`
`18 self-discriminate and about the confidentially between
`
`19 client and attorney.
`
`20
`
`21 EXAMINATION
`
`22 (All answers through Witness speaking in
`
`23 English unless otherwise noted.)
`
`24 BY MR. GRAVES: Thank you, your Honor.
`
`25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Goertz. My name is Philip
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
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` 1 Graves, and I represent Neonode Smartphone LLC in some
`
` 2 litigation in the United States against Apple and
`
` 3 Samsung. So I will be asking you some questions today.
`
` 4 Then Apple and Samsung's lawyers will have an
`
` 5 opportunity to ask you some questions, and then I will
`
` 6 have an opportunity to follow up regarding the questions
`
` 7 that Apple and Samsung's lawyers ask. Do you understand
`
` 8 that?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. All right, sir. Is that any reason that you
`
`11 cannot testify truthfully and fully today?
`
`12 A. As long as it is okay with Neonode AB or what
`
`13 the name is today.
`
`14 Q. Very good. You're not taking any medication
`
`15 that would affect your ability to remember things or to
`
`16 testify accurately; is that right?
`
`17 A. No, but it is 20 years ago; so it's a very
`
`18 long time.
`
`19 Q. I understand. If at any point I ask you a
`
`20 question that you feel you do not understand or you need
`
`21 clarification, will you ask me?
`
`22 A. Yes.
`
`23 Q. Very good. If at any point you feel that you
`
`24 need to take a break, you can feel free to let us know
`
`25 -- I suppose that's at the judge's discretion -- but I
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 don't want to do anything that will make you physically
`
` 2 uncomfortable today. You understand?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. Very good. Sir, you produced some documents
`
` 5 to the Stockholm District Court in early May of this
`
` 6 year; correct?
`
` 7 A. Correct.
`
` 8 Q. Was that pursuant to an order from the
`
` 9 Stockholm District Court?
`
`10 A. Yes.
`
`11 Q. You produced these files or these documents as
`
`12 files in a folder on a thumb drive that you delivered to
`
`13 the court; is that right?
`
`14 MS. CHEN: Objection. Leading.
`
`15 THE WITNESS: No. I e-mailed it to the.
`
`16 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Very good. From where did you
`
`17 get these documents?
`
`18 A. It's from a CD-ROM that I have at home.
`
`19 Q. Now, so what did you do get the documents from
`
`20 CD-ROM over to the court?
`
`21 A. So I just copied them, and I zipped them, and
`
`22 I e-mailed them.
`
`23 Q. Very good. Did you do a thorough search for
`
`24 electronic documents responsive to the court order
`
`25 requiring you to search for certain documents?
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 A. Yes, and this was the only one I found.
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` 2 Q. Did you search for old e-mails or e-mail
`
` 3 archives?
`
` 4 A. Yes, I don't have any e-mails or any other
`
` 5 documents stored.
`
` 6 Q. Did you search for hard copy documents?
`
` 7 A. I don't have any papers left from that time.
`
` 8 Q. All right, but did you look for them?
`
` 9 A. Yes, I looked for them. I know where I have
`
`10 papers. I don't have that many papers.
`
`11 Q. Okay. Very good. The documents that you
`
`12 delivered to the court, were these documents saved as
`
`13 files by you back in the 2001 to 2002 period?
`
`14 A. Yes.
`
`15 Q. So the documents you provided to the court,
`
`16 you actually saved those to --
`
`17 A. It was from my computer. A backup from my
`
`18 computer.
`
`19 Q. And you saved those documents to your computer
`
`20 back in 2001-2002?
`
`21 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`22 THE WITNESS: To CD-ROM but, yes.
`
`23 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Were they initially saved to a
`
`24 computer or a hard drive on a computer and then
`
`25 subsequently saved to a CD-ROM?
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 A. They were stored on the computer, and then
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` 2 they backed up on the CD-ROM.
`
` 3 Q. And these documents that you produced to the
`
` 4 court, were they created in the course and scope of your
`
` 5 work for Neonode?
`
` 6 A. Can you repeat that.
`
` 7 Q. Sure. The documents you produced to the
`
` 8 court, were they created in the course and scope of your
`
` 9 work for Neonode?
`
`10 A. I don't understand what you mean by created.
`
`11 Q. Did you make those documents? Did you create
`
`12 those documents? Did you draft those documents in the
`
`13 normal course of your work for Neonode?
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`14 MS. CHEN: Objection. Compound and vague.
`
`15 THE WITNESS: I did them at Neonode at that
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`16 time.
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`17 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: So you created those documents
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`18 in the normal course of your work for Neonode back in
`
`19 2001 to 2002; is that right?
`
`20 A. Yes, but the name was not Neonode; it was
`
`21 Neo5.
`
`22 Q. So the initial name of the company was Neo5?
`
`23 A. Yes.
`
`24 Q. Then in around October of 2001, did Neo5
`
`25 change its name to Neonode AB?
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`www.european-depositions.com
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 A. Yes. I don't remember the date, but it
`
` 2 changed to Neonode because thought that was a better
`
` 3 name.
`
` 4 Q. So I am going to refer to the Neonode entity
`
` 5 as Neonode even for the period in which that entity's
`
` 6 name was Neo5. Is that okay with you?
`
` 7 A. Yes.
`
` 8 Q. You will understand that when I am referring
`
` 9 to Neonode, I am including Neo5; right?
`
`10 A. Yes.
`
`11 Q. All right. Was it a regular practice of yours
`
`12 to create documents from the type that you produced to
`
`13 the court --
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`14 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous.
`
`15 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: -- back in the 2001 to 2002
`
`16 time frame in your work with Neonode?
`
`17 MS. CHEN: Objection vague and ambiguous.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: We did not produce that many
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`19 documents, but we did some because we did try to get --
`
`20 it was only Thomas and me. We sat one meter from each
`
`21 other. We didn't need to e-mail or produce that many
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`22 documents, but we made a few, and that's what I can say.
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`23 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: So it was a regular practice
`
`24 of yours to make documents at that time when you worked
`
`25 for Neonode; correct?
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`www.european-depositions.com
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`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 A. Correct.
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` 2 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague and ambiguous.
`
` 3 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: When you made copies of these
`
` 4 documents to produce to the court, did you copy over the
`
` 5 metadata associated with the files?
`
` 6 A. You mean the backup to the CD-ROM?
`
` 7 Q. Yes.
`
` 8 A. I just copied like I do when I copied to a
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` 9 CD-ROM.
`
`10 Q. So do you know --
`
`11 A. I would presume it's the date from when they
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`12 were produced; not when they were copied.
`
`13 Q. Sir, do you know what metadata is?
`
`14 A. I wouldn't say that I know exactly, but it's
`
`15 the data.
`
`16 Q. So I use the term metadata, I will be
`
`17 referring to data concerning the properties of a file
`
`18 that is typically associated with a file such as Word
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`19 document or PDF or a JPEG?
`
`20 A. Yes.
`
`21 Q. And the metadata typically will include data
`
`22 concerning the date the document was created and the
`
`23 date that it was last modified. Do you understand?
`
`24 A. Yes.
`
`25 Q. Did you make any changes to the metadata
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
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`12
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` 1 associated with any of the files you produced to the
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` 2 court?
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` 3 A. No.
`
` 4 Q. Do you know whether the metadata for any of
`
` 5 the files was changed during the process of taking them
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` 6 from the CD-ROM backup, putting them into an e-mail that
`
` 7 you then sent to the court?
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` 8 A. No, I don't know that, and I don't see how
`
` 9 that's been done, but I know it was a short -- I presume
`
`10 it doesn't.
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`11 Q. I will represent to you that some of the files
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`12 have a last modified May 6, 2022. Is that the date that
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`13 you copied those documents off of the CD-ROM and
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`14 prepared them to be sent to the court?
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`15 A. I don't remember what date it was.
`
`16 Q. Was it around May 6, 2022 when you prepared
`
`17 the documents for production to the court?
`
`18 A. I wouldn't say I know exactly what date it is,
`
`19 so it's --
`
`20 Q. Was it -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
`
`21 A. So I don't know exactly what date it is. I
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`22 wouldn't say I know because I don't put that in my mind
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`23 to remember when I send an e-mail.
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`24 Q. Sir, I've noticed that we are conversing back
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`25 and forth in English, you know. If at any point you
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
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`IPR2021-01041
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` 1 feel that -- I know my questions are being interpreted
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` 2 to you in Swedish -- if at any point you feel that you
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` 3 need to respond me in Swedish in order to be fully
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` 4 accurate, will you do so?
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` 5 A. Yes.
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` 6 Q. Very good. Did you make any changes or
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` 7 modifications to the content of any of the files you
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` 8 produced to the court when you copied them over for
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` 9 production?
`
`10 A. No.
`
`11 Q. So if the file that you produced to the court
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`12 has a last modified date of May 6, 2022, does that just
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`13 mean that that's the date which it was copied by you for
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`14 production to the court?
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`15 A. I don't know. I don't know which file it is,
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`16 and I don't know why it has this date.
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`17 Q. Sir, are you currently working for any Neonode
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`18 entity?
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`19 A. No.
`
`20 Q. By Neonode entity, I am referring to Neonode,
`
`21 Inc., Neonode Technologies AB, Neonode Smartphone LLC,
`
`22 and any entities that are affiliated or related to them.
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`23 Do you understand that?
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`24 A. No, I don't work for any of them.
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`25 Q. Are you currently consulting for any
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`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
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`14
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` 1 Neonode-related entity?
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` 2 A. No.
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` 3 Q. Do you currently own any stock in any
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` 4 Neonode-related entity?
`
` 5 A. No.
`
` 6 Q. Do you currently own any interest in any
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` 7 Neonode-related entity?
`
` 8 A. No.
`
` 9 Q. Are you currently receiving any compensation
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`10 or money of any kind from any Neonode-related entity?
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`11 A. No.
`
`12 Q. Will you be benefitted financially if Neonode
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`13 Smartphone wins its lawsuits against Apple and Samsung?
`
`14 A. No.
`
`15 Q. I asked to meet you earlier this week prior to
`
`16 your deposition; is that right?
`
`17 A. Yes.
`
`18 Q. And did you decline to meet with me?
`
`19 A. (In Swedish and interpreted by Interpreter):
`
`20 Yes, I declined.
`
`21 Q. Okay. And have I discussed this deposition
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`22 with you at any time?
`
`23 A. Yes, you have discussed to help you with
`
`24 information regarding this matter earlier.
`
`25 Q. Yes, but have I discussed this deposition with
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`15
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` 1 you?
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` 2 A. What do you mean by this?
`
` 3 Q. Giving testimony as we are sitting here today.
`
` 4 A. Yes, it's a long time ago.
`
` 5 Q. Okay. Have I discussed the procedure of -- I
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` 6 will strike the question. Have I discussed with you any
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` 7 answers that you might or might not give in this
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` 8 deposition?
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` 9 A. (In Swedish and interpreted by Interpreter):
`
`10 No.
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`11 MR. GRAVES: I would like to mark as Exhibit 1
`
`12 a document Bates numbered NEONODE0002445 through 2455,
`
`13 and that is entitled US Patent 812,993 -- I will strike
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`14 that and start over.
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`15 I would like to mark as Exhibit 1,
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`16 NEONODE00002435 through 2444, and that is US Patent
`
`17 8,095,879.
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`18 (Exhibit 1 marked by Mr. Graves.)
`
`19 and marked as Exhibit 2 document Bates No.
`
`20 NEONODE0002445 through 2455, and that is US Patent
`
`21 8,812,993.
`
`22 (Exhibit 2 marked by Mr. Graves.)
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`23 Mr. Goertz, you have been handed Exhibits 1
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`24 and 2. Have you seen --
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`25 JUDGE HEDENMO: Submitted to the Court or just
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`16
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` 1 to these proceedings?
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` 2 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Sir, have you seen Exhibits 1
`
` 3 and 2 before?
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` 4 A. I don't know if it's exactly the same, but the
`
` 5 pictures and everything is similar.
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` 6 MR. GRAVES: Is Exhibit 1 a copy of a patent
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` 7 on which you are named as the sole inventor?
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` 8 A. Is it a question or is it --
`
` 9 Q. It's a question. Is Exhibit 1 a copy of --
`
`10 strike the question. Is Exhibit 1 a true and correct
`
`11 copy of US Patent 8,095,879, which I will refer to from
`
`12 here on as the '879 Patent?
`
`13 A. I cannot answer that question.
`
`14 Q. Are you named as the sole inventor on the
`
`15 caption page of the '879 Patent, Exhibit 1?
`
`16 A. Yes, it looks like that.
`
`17 Q. Take a look at Exhibit 2. Are you named as
`
`18 the sole inventor on the caption page of Exhibit 2,
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`19 which is US Patent 8,812,993, which I will refer to from
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`20 here on now as the '993 Patent?
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`21 A. It looks like that.
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`22 Q. So were you in fact the sole inventor of the
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`23 inventions claimed in the '879 Patent and the '993
`
`24 Patent?
`
`25 A. Yes.
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`
`17
`
`
` 1 Q. Okay. Was Thomas Eriksson a co-inventor of
`
` 2 the inventions claimed in these patents?
`
` 3 A. Not really but we talk to each other so it's
`
` 4 not like...yeah.
`
` 5 Q. You talked to each other during the
`
` 6 development of the Neonode N1 phone; correct?
`
` 7 A. Yes.
`
` 8 Q. To the best of your knowledge, is Mr. Thomas a
`
` 9 co-inventor of the inventions that are claimed in these
`
`10 two patents?
`
`11 A. I would say that I was the main inventor on
`
`12 the work.
`
`13 Q. So sir, at some point, did you conceive of the
`
`14 concept of the idea of a mobile phone that could be
`
`15 operated with one hand using a touch and glide
`
`16 interface?
`
`17 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat the question.
`
`19 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Sure. Did you at some point
`
`20 conceive of the idea of a new type of mobile phone?
`
`21 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`22 THE WITNESS: Should I listen to the others?
`
`23 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: You should answer, if you can.
`
`24 A. If I at some time thought about a mobile phone
`
`25 used with one hand? Yes.
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 18 of 186
`
`
`
`18
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`
` 1 Q. Is that the phone that later became the
`
` 2 Neonode N1?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. When you initially thought of the idea of a
`
` 5 mobile phone, what were the characteristics of that
`
` 6 phone that you were thinking about?
`
` 7 A. One big screen and possible to navigate with
`
` 8 your thumb.
`
` 9 Q. Okay. Was that something that was commonly
`
`10 available at the time in the market?
`
`11 MS. CHEN: Objection. Lacks foundation.
`
`12 Vague.
`
`13 THE WITNESS: There was some phones from
`
`14 Ericsson that you could touch, that you could actually
`
`15 slip away the keyboard and touch the LCD screen, to dial
`
`16 a number, for example. You could use the compact iPac
`
`17 and the palm pilot with one hand long before.
`
`18 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Okay. Did you think that your
`
`19 idea would be something new in the market?
`
`20 A. The problem of the resistant touch was that it
`
`21 was not that good to use with the finger. It was made
`
`22 for stylus, and you wanted it to be something that you
`
`23 carry in your pocket with one hand.
`
`24 Q. These phones from Ericsson and the palm pilot,
`
`25 were those phones that were typically used with the
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 19 of 186
`
`
`
`19
`
`
` 1 stylus?
`
` 2 A. Yes, it was a stylus included.
`
` 3 Q. What you were thinking of was a phone that a
`
` 4 user could use naturally with a thumb or a finger; is
`
` 5 that right?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. To your knowledge at the time, that would be
`
` 8 something new in the telecommunications or the mobile
`
` 9 device market; is that right?
`
`10 A. Yes.
`
`11 Q. When did you first come up with this idea?
`
`12 MS. CHEN: Objection. Vague.
`
`13 THE WITNESS: I cannot put a date on that.
`
`14 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Can you give me a year?
`
`15 A. No.
`
`16 Q. So when -- did you at some point discuss this
`
`17 idea with Thomas Eriksson?
`
`18 A. Yes, for sure.
`
`19 Q. Did you and Mr. Eriksson decide to find a
`
`20 company to attempt to develop this concept into a
`
`21 product?
`
`22 A. Yes.
`
`23 Q. And do you remember roughly when that was?
`
`24 A. Unfortunately not. Actually not, no. I have
`
`25 not looked for the date either.
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 20 of 186
`
`
`
`20
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`
` 1 MR. GRAVES: I would like to mark as Exhibit
`
` 2 3, a document Bates numbered NEONODE0002402 through
`
` 3 2084, entitled "Neonode Confidential Business Plan May
`
` 4 2003."
`
` 5 (Exhibit 3 marked by Mr. Graves.)
`
` 6 Q. Sir, I would like to direct you to the page
`
` 7 that's Bates numbered NEONODE0002052. Let me know when
`
` 8 you have turned to that page, please.
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. All right. Does this page -- it's top of the
`
`11 page -- does it say, section C, Important Milestones?
`
`12 A. Yes.
`
`13 Q. Okay. Then underneath, do you see a timeline
`
`14 that runs from June 2000 through May 2003?
`
`15 A. Yes.
`
`16 Q. I'd like for you to take a moment and read
`
`17 through this page and let me know when you are finished.
`
`18 A. Okay.
`
`19 Q. Sir, does reviewing the timeline on Page
`
`20 NEONODE2052 refresh your recollection as to when you may
`
`21 have first discussed your idea of a new type of mobile
`
`22 phone that could be navigated using a thumb or a finger
`
`23 with Mr. Eriksson?
`
`24 MS. CHEN: Objection. Assumes facts not in
`
`25 evidence.
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 21 of 186
`
`
`
`21
`
`
` 1 THE WITNESS: What date I used the term thumb?
`
` 2 I cannot see in this, and I cannot point to specific
`
` 3 date. I have not written this text, so I don't know if
`
` 4 it's correct or not correct.
`
` 5 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: I am asking you if reviewing
`
` 6 this refreshes your recollection as to generally when --
`
` 7 I am not asking for a specific date -- we will start
`
` 8 with the year, right, when you first discussed your idea
`
` 9 of a mobile device that can be navigated using a finger
`
`10 with Mr. Eriksson?
`
`11 MS. CHEN: Objection. Asked and answered.
`
`12 Assumes facts not in evidence.
`
`13 THE WITNESS: I have a document that says when
`
`14 -- I would refer to that because I cannot set any other
`
`15 date when I discussed it. I discussed phone since the
`
`16 90s, so it's impossible for me to set a specific date.
`
`17 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: What is the document that you
`
`18 have just referred to?
`
`19 A. It was something that included in the -- with
`
`20 a picture, sweeping right and up and also with a short
`
`21 test document for the dosk -- and I would also say as
`
`22 soon as we started to develop the optical touch screen,
`
`23 it was meant for a sliding and with the thumb. So it's
`
`24 basically that is the date I could refer to.
`
`25 Q. Okay. When you first started developing the
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 22 of 186
`
`
`
`22
`
`
` 1 optical touch screen, it was intended to enable the
`
` 2 gliding, the touching, gliding gestures that you had
`
` 3 already thought of for the phone?
`
` 4 A. Yes.
`
` 5 MR. GRAVES: I would like to mark as Exhibit 4
`
` 6 a document that is Bates numbered NEONODE-MG0000267.
`
` 7 (Exhibit 4 marked by Mr. Graves.)
`
` 8 Q. Sir, do you have Exhibit 4 in front of you?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. Is Exhibit 4 the document that you just
`
`11 referred us to --
`
`12 A. Yes.
`
`13 Q. And what is Exhibit 4?
`
`14 A. This is just a short design, this device we
`
`15 were developing.
`
`16 Q. Did you create Exhibit 4?
`
`17 A. Yes.
`
`18 Q. Why did you create Exhibit 4?
`
`19 A. To show people what we are doing and when we
`
`20 talked to other suppliers.
`
`21 Q. Okay. So for the record, Exhibit 4, the first
`
`22 page is a cover sheet that states "Document Produced in
`
`23 Native Format," and that's there because this document
`
`24 was produced to defendants in its native format rather
`
`25 than converted to a special format for our document
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 23 of 186
`
`
`
`23
`
`
` 1 production database.
`
` 2 The next page is a page entitled "Metadata,"
`
` 3 and this page contains metadata associated with this
`
` 4 file as it was produced by Mr. Goertz to the Stockholm
`
` 5 District Court, and the document has a date -- created
`
` 6 date of May 21, 2001, and a date modified of May 21,
`
` 7 2001.
`
` 8 Sir, do you have any reason to doubt that you
`
` 9 created this document on May 21, 2001?
`
`10 A. No.
`
`11 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to doubt that
`
`12 the last date this file containing this document was
`
`13 modified was May 21, 2001?
`
`14 A. No.
`
`15 Q. All right. I notice that there is a -- what
`
`16 looks like the display side of a mobile device in the
`
`17 middle of the page. Do you see that?
`
`18 A. Yes.
`
`19 Q. Can you tell us what that image is or was
`
`20 intended to depict?
`
`21 A. It should be our mobile phone, where you could
`
`22 -- the surface where you put your finger and sweeps up
`
`23 and left.
`
`24 Q. And so this reflects your concept for how a
`
`25 user would navigate around on the display as of May 21,
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 24 of 186
`
`
`
`24
`
`
` 1 2001; is that right?
`
` 2 MS. CHEN: Objection. Leading --
`
` 3 THE WITNESS: But it shows that you can reach
`
` 4 the complete handset, holding it in one hand.
`
` 5 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Okay.
`
` 6 A. By sweeping, for example.
`
` 7 Q. All right. So the circular kind of filled-in
`
` 8 circle in the lower right corner of the display, does
`
` 9 that represent an icon or a graphical element of some
`
`10 kind to guide the user to where to touch to begin the
`
`11 gesture?
`
`12 MS. CHEN: Objection. Leading. Vague.
`
`13 THE WITNESS: As I remember, it shows where
`
`14 you could set your finger to start dragging. It's not,
`
`15 as I remember, it's not an icon.
`
`16 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: So when you -- if the user
`
`17 touched in the lower right corner and swept up, what
`
`18 would happen?
`
`19 A. At the point for this picture, there's nothing
`
`20 happening because it's just a picture.
`
`21 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: What was your concept for what
`
`22 would happen at this point?
`
`23 A. I cannot tell anything about the concept
`
`24 because it's a picture made, showing the size of the
`
`25 phone and how it should be used, hold in your hand, and
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IPR2021-01041
`
`Page 25 of 186
`
`
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`25
`
`
` 1 dragged over. We didn't tell anything about -- we
`
` 2 didn't write down anything about the usage of the way we
`
` 3 filed the patents.
`
` 4 MR. GRAVES: I would like to mark as Exhibit
`
` 5 5, a document Bates numbered NEONODE-MG0000268.
`
` 6 (Exhibit 5 marked by Mr. Graves.)
`
` 7 Q. Sir, do you have Exhibit 5 in front of you?
`
` 8 A. Yes, it's the same as the one before.
`
` 9 Q. Yes, it does appear to be the same. The only
`
`10 difference is that it looks like Exhibit 4, the very top
`
`11 margin, cuts some of the graphic off, and it's more
`
`12 visible than Exhibit 5 at the top. Do you see that?
`
`13 A. Yes.
`
`14 Q. Okay. So is that shape at the very top with
`
`15 the arc curving around in the triangle, was that
`
`16 intended to depict part of a padlock hanging into the
`
`17 image?
`
`18 MS. CHEN: Objection. Leading.
`
`19 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. I don't know.
`
`20 Q. BY MR. GRAVES: Do you recall -- I'm sorry, I
`
`21 didn't mean to step on your answer.
`
`22 A. No, I cannot tell anything about this.
`
`23 Q. The overlapping rectangles in the upper part
`
`24 of the page, what were those intended to represent?
`
`25 A. They probably represent some kind of a file
`
`www.european-depositions.com
`+442073850077
`
`GOOGLE EXHIBIT 1044
`GOOGLE v. NEONODE
`IP
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