Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
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`Page 1
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`U N I T E D S T A T E S I N T E R N A T I O N A L T R A D E C O M M I S S I O N
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` W A S H I N G T O N , D . C .
`
` B e f o r e t h e H o n o r a b l e C a m e r o n R . E l l i o t
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` A d m i n i s t r a t i v e L a w J u d g e
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`I n t h e M a t t e r o f )
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`C E R T A I N W E A R A B L E E L E C T R O N I C ) I n v . N o . 3 3 7 - T A - 1 2 6 6
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`D E V I C E S W I T H E C G
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`F U N C T I O N A L I T Y A N D
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`C O M P O N E N T S T H E R E O F
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` C O N F I D E N T I A L B U S I N E S S I N F O R M A T I O N
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` S U B J E C T T O T H E P R O T E C T I V E O R D E R
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` V i d e o R e c o r d e d V i r t u a l D e p o s i t i o n
`
` O f
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` I G O R R . E F I M O V , P h . D .
`
` T h e v i d e o r e c o r d e d v i r t u a l d e p o s i t i o n o f
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` I G O R R . E F I M O V , P h . D . , c a l l e d b y t h e R e s p o n d e n t f o r
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` e x a m i n a t i o n , p u r s u a n t t o N o t i c e , a n d p u r s u a n t t o t h e
`
` R u l e s o f C i v i l P r o c e d u r e f o r t h e U n i t e d S t a t e s
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` D i s t r i c t C o u r t s , t a k e n s t e n o g r a p h i c a l l y b y S a n d r a L .
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` R o c c a , C S R , R P R , R M R , C R R , v i a Z o o m , o n t h e 3 1 s t o f
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` J a n u a r y , 2 0 2 2 , a t t h e h o u r o f 9 : 0 0 a . m .
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`1
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`APPLE 1071
`Apple v. AliveCor
`IPR2021-00972
`
`

`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
`
`Page 2
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`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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` VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record for
` the video deposition of Dr. Igor Efimov. The time
` is 9:00 a.m., January 31st, 2022, In the Matter of
` Certain Wearable Electronic Devices With ECG
` Functionality and Components Thereof, Investigation
` Number 337-TA-1266 being held in the United States
` International Trade Commission, Washington, D.C.
` The court reporter is Sandra Rocca. The
` videographer is Gus Phillips and both are
` representatives of GregoryEdwards Court Reporting.
` Will counsel please state their appearances
` for the record beginning with the claimant.
` MR. HOLMES: Yes, this is Andrew Holmes on
` behalf of the claimant AliveCor. I'm with the law
` firm Quinn Emanuel and with me on the line are my
` colleagues Bruce Lee and Kevin Gu who will be
` listening in.
` MS. REARDON: And Katherine Reardon from the
` law firm Fish & Richardson on behalf of the
` respondent Apple.
` MR. WINSTON: Whitney Winston on behalf of
` Commission investigative staff.
` IGOR EFIMOV, Ph.D.,
` having been first duly sworn, was examined and
` testified as follows:
`
`Page 5
`
` EXAMINATION
` BY MS. REARDON:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Efimov.
` A Good morning.
` Q Can you please state your full name for the
` record?
` A My name is Igor Efimov.
` Q And Dr. Efimov, where do you reside?
` A Currently at home in Arlington, Virginia,
` but I work at George Washington University across
` the river in Washington, D.C.
` Q I'm sorry. And can you provide your full
` address for your residence in Arlington, Virginia?
` A Sure. It's 1510 16th Court North,
` Arlington, Virginia 22209.
` Q And Dr. Efimov, I see that beautiful
` background, but I assume that's not actually GW's
` campus, is that right?
` A Well, yes, but I'm dreaming of the blossom
` that's coming.
` Q Are you testifying from your office at GW
` today?
` A No, I'm testifying from my home office in
` Arlington, Virginia.
` Q And is anybody in the room with you?
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
` By: MR. ANDREW HOLMES
` MR. BRUCE LEE
` MR. KEVIN GU
` 50 California Street, 22nd Floor
` San Francisco, California 94111
` 415.875.6322
` drewholmes@quinnemanuel.com
` brucelee@quinnemanuel.com
` kevingu@quinnemaneul.com
`
` appeared on behalf of the
` Complainant;
`
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` By: MS. KATHERINE REARDON
` 1180 Peachtree Street NE, 21st Floor
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` 404.724.2764
` kreardon@fr.com
`
` appeared on behalf of the
` Respondent.
`
` OFFICE OF UNFAIR IMPORT INVESTIGATION
` INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
` By: MR. R. WHITNEY WINSTON
` 500 E Street, SW
` Washington, D.C. 20436
` 202.205.2221
` whitney.winston@usitc.gov
`
` appeared on behalf of the ITC.
`
` Also Present:
` Mr. Gus Phillips, Videographer
`
` * * * * * * * *
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`Page 3
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` I N D E X
` WITNESS PAGE
` IGOR R. EFIMOV, Ph.D.
` EXAMINED BY
` Ms. Reardon 5
`
` * * * * * * * *
`
` E X H I B I T S
` NUMBER MARKED FOR ID
` Efimov
` Exhibit 1 I. Efimov CV 35
` Exhibit 2 I. Efimov Expert Report 115
` Exhibit 3 Order No. 12, re claim
` construction 124
`
` Exhibit 4 U.S. Patent No. 9,572,499 161
`
` Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent No. 10,595,731 161
`
` Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent No. 10,638,941 161
`
` Exhibit 7 APL-ALIVE_00082371 to 82383 197
`
` Exhibit 8 APL-ALIVE_00083186 to 83271 225
`
` Exhibit 9 PEGA_00603816 to 83271, Tran
` U.S. Patent Application
` Publication 2008/0004904 A1 252
`
` Exhibit 10 AliveITC_00000054 to 68
` License Agreement 253
`
` * * * * * * * *
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
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`Page 6
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` A No.
` Q And do you have any notes or documents with
` you?
` A Well, I have my computer and my iPad next to
` me.
` Q Got it. But no physical printouts of any
` documents?
` A No, I don't.
` Q Now, you have been deposed before, is that
` right?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q So I assume then you probably generally know
` the procedure here for today, but I'll go over it
` again here if you don't mind.
` A Yes, I do. But I have to admit that the
` Zoom procedure is the first time for me.
` Q That's very good to know. I think we've all
` taken it as normal, but we will certainly go over
` the Zoom procedure.
` So I will ask the questions, and you are
` required to answer them unless your lawyer tells you
` not to. Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q And you understand that your counsel may
` assert objections from time to time, but unless he
`
`Page 7
`
` instructs you not to answer, you must answer my
` question. Right?
` A Yes, I do understand that.
` Q And you will do that?
` A Yes, I will.
` Q And you understand that you need to focus on
` my questions and answer only my questions, right?
` A Yes.
` Q And if you feel the need to talk about
` something else that's not in response to my
` question, then you can ask me or your attorney.
` Okay?
` A Yes.
` Q And if you don't understand a question I
` ask, you'll let me know. Okay?
` A Yes, of course.
` Q So if you answer my question, then I'm going
` to interpret that you understood my question. Fair?
` A Well, yes, as far as I could, yes.
` Q And so you're aware, if we have technical
` difficulties or you need to take a break at any
` time, you can just let me know and we can do that.
` Okay?
` A Yeah, I will do so.
` Q And in this setting, we will go off the
`
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`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
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` record in the same way that in the room the
` videographer would tell us to go off the record.
` Okay?
` A Okay.
` Q And then today we will look at some
` documents, and I will drop those into the chat
` function. And you've probably seen the chat
` function pop up already, have you?
` A Yeah, we just tested actually one test
` document.
` Q Excellent. So what I will do is I will type
` the exhibit number -- so I will type Exhibit 1 and
` then I will drop an exhibit and I will state that
` it's marked as Exhibit 1, for example. Do you
` understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q And then we can open and look at that
` document. Okay?
` A Yes.
` Q Now, you understand you just took an oath to
` tell the truth, right?
` A Yes.
` Q And you'll do that today?
` A Of course.
` Q And you understand that your sworn testimony
`
`Page 9
`
` today is the same as if you were giving it before
` the International Trade Commission, correct?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q So same as if we were in the courtroom.
` Fair?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there any reason, medical or otherwise,
` that you cannot give your best and most accurate and
` most complete testimony today?
` A No, there is no reason.
` Q And then, Dr. Efimov, I have two questions
` and I don't mean to offend, but I have to ask them.
` You've never been charged with a felony, right?
` A No.
` Q And you've never been accused of any
` professional misconduct, right?
` A No.
` Q Never been accused of perjury?
` A No.
` Q And never had any publication in the
` professional field rescinded?
` A No.
` Q You understand that AliveCor has sued Apple
` in this case, correct?
` A Yes, I do.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
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`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
`
`Page 10
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` Q And so if I refer to AliveCor for short
` today, you will understand that that's short for
` AliveCor Inc., right?
` A Yes.
` Q And if I refer to Apple today, you will
` understand that that is short for Apple Inc., right?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And I mentioned this before, but you're
` aware that this case is before the International
` Trade Commission, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Have you ever testified at the International
` Trade Commission before?
` A No.
` Q You've never been a part of a case that's
` been before the International Trade Commission, is
` that right?
` A As far as I remember, no.
` Q Are you aware that there is a hearing in
` this investigation coming up in March?
` A I think so, uh-huh.
` Q And you intend to testify about your
` opinions in the report you submitted in this case at
` that hearing, right?
` A Yes.
`
`Page 11
`
` Q Now, have you ever had any professional
` interactions with Apple?
` A I knew some people from Apple years ago I
` emailed maybe several times, but it was just a
` social interaction.
` Q Who were the people that you knew at Apple?
` Can you recall?
` A I forgot the name. She was a biomedical
` engineer and student at Duke University but then
` worked for Apple. She is a biomedical engineer.
` And I apologize, I don't remember the name. Anna,
` and I forgot the last name.
` Q Do you know what she was working on at
` Apple?
` A No, not really.
` Q And you mentioned that you had maybe sent
` several emails to Apple. Were those all to the same
` -- I think you said Anna that worked there?
` A Uh-huh.
` Q Is there anyone else that you interacted
` with at Apple?
` A Not what I would recall, no.
` Q Do you have an opinion of Apple as a
` company?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
`
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`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
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`Page 12
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` A It's the largest company in the world, I
` guess.
` Q Do you believe Apple's an innovative
` company?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A It's hard to say. It creates interesting
` products, yes.
` Q Do you believe Apple's an innovative company
` and has created interesting products in the health
` space?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A Well, as far as I know, Apple wants to be
` healthcare company, yes.
` Q Do you view Apple as a healthcare company?
` A I tend to view healthcare companies which
` have direct impact on hospital, medical field.
` Apple probably is not there yet.
` Q So to make sure I understand, you don't
` think Apple's products have any direct impact on the
` hospital or medical field, is that right?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A Well, Apple products are currently used
` either at clinical trials of Apple products, so in
` this respect they do have impact.
` Q And what clinical trials are you referring
`
`Page 13
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` to?
` A Well, there are several clinical trials
` related to Apple Watch and the detection of atrial
` fibrillation.
` Q And have you looked at those clinical
` trials?
` A I read some papers, yes, a while ago.
` Q And why did you read those papers?
` MR. HOLMES: I just -- hold on a second. I
` just want to caution you to the extent that you were
` directed by the attorneys to do that, not to
` disclose the communications that you had with them.
` But if you did it on your own, you can answer.
` A Yeah, I did it on my own as an editor of a
` journal, some papers came across as a reviewer.
` Q And what did you understand those clinical
` trials to be studying?
` A It was an attempt to basically detect atrial
` fibrillation in consumers.
` Q Is it your opinion that if a company does
` clinical trials, it is creating a medical device?
` A Not necessarily. It could be a drug. It
` could be imaging modalities; not necessarily a
` medical device.
` Q Can you do -- I'm sorry. I should say as
`
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`
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`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
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`Page 14
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` well any time -- I don't mean to interrupt you.
` Please finish your answer.
` A Or it could be, you know, algorithm which is
` also not necessarily medical device.
` Q So you can do clinical trials for a consumer
` device, is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you own an Apple Watch?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Did you buy it for the ECG functionality?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A I bought three or four models of Apple
` Watch. I just keep updating. I like new gadgets.
` Q So why do you wear an Apple Watch?
` A It's convenient. It keeps my calendar.
` Q Have you ever used the -- well, let me ask
` you this: Have you ever heard of the high heart
` rate notification on the Apple Watch?
` A Not in my personal experience.
` Q What about the irregular rhythm
` notification, have you ever heard of that?
` A As a consumer, no, I haven't had that,
` fortunately.
` Q Have you heard about the irregular rhythm
` notification in the context of this case?
`
`Page 15
`
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A I think it might have come forth in some
` documents.
` Q But fair to say you weren't aware of the
` irregular rhythm notification as a user of the Apple
` Watch prior to this case, correct?
` A Rather if you take electrocardiogram it says
` something about atrial fibrillation, not sure if
` rhythm notification as such if it's being referred.
` Q Let me ask you that question since the ECG
` functionality is separate. You've taken an ECG on
` your Apple Watch, correct?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A Yeah, I have, with KardiaBand and with Apple
` Watch.
` Q And why did you do that?
` MR. HOLMES: Hold on a second. I just want
` to caution you to the extent that you were directed
` by any attorneys to do that, you don't disclose the
` communications you had with them. But if you've
` done it on your own, you can feel free to answer.
` A Well, initially I teach electrophysiology,
` cardiovascular engineering in classroom for over 20
` years and this includes teaching
` electrocardiography. And I bring various gadgets we
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`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
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`Page 16
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` use, for example, AD instruments, EKG recorder which
` students have to use and conduct laboratory
` recording their own EKG. I brought various other
` sensors which can be used for recording EKG. And on
` those sensors it was also Apple Watch.
` Q So it sounds like you've looked at a lot of
` different types of ECG sensors in your
` electrophysiology class, is that right?
` A Yes, yes.
` Q And Apple Watch is just one of those
` sensors?
` A Yes.
` Q Have you -- let me ask you this: It sounds
` like your use of the Apple Watch is varied, is that
` fair?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A I'm not sure what it means. Can you define
` varied?
` Q Let me ask you this: What types of uses do
` you use your Apple Watch for?
` A As a consumer or as a teacher in classroom?
` Q As a consumer.
` A As a consumer, well, primarily of course for
` keeping the time and calendar, some apps. When I
` walk, I track my exercise. That's primarily the
`
`Page 17
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` use.
` Q Have you ever in your professional setting
` done studies on the Apple Watch?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever tried to uncover or study the
` software of the Apple Watch?
` A No.
` Q You've never looked at how the Apple
` algorithm -- algorithms work respect to its ECG
` functionality, for example, correct?
` A No, I haven't.
` Q And same for the hardware in the Apple
` Watch, you've never looked at the specific hardware
` that Apple uses for its sensors?
` A No.
` Q Now, you are aware that Apple's expert on
` invalidity in this case is -- let me say it this
` way.
` You're aware that Apple's expert on
` invalidity of the asserted patents in this case is
` Dr. Collin Stultz, correct?
` A Yes, I am.
` Q Have you ever heard of Dr. Stultz before?
` A No.
` Q So you never read any of his publications?
`
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`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
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`Page 18
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` A We are in different fields.
` Q And what field would you say you're in?
` A I'm a cardiac electrophysiologist.
` Q And what field would you say Dr. Stultz is
` in?
` A Well, it's -- I would say he has an MD and
` Ph.D. As an MD, he's a practicing cardiologist, and
` as a Ph.D., he's essentially a protein biophysicist.
` I believe his specialty is, if I remember correctly,
` is collagen promoter.
` Q Are you aware of whether Dr. Stultz has
` experience in biomedical engineering?
` A Yeah, his degree is in biomedical
` engineering, but like I said, it's on the side of
` molecular or protein biophysics.
` Q Are you aware of whether Dr. Stultz has
` experience designing products -- designing devices
` that use ECG functionality?
` A I mean, I don't know how deep his design
` experience is. Like I said, I don't really know
` him.
` Q But fair to say you consider the two of you
` to be in separate fields, correct?
` A Well, at least we go to different
` conferences and usually the field is different by
`
`Page 19
`
` your community. For example, I go to Heart Rhythm
` Society conferences, which is our main cardiac
` electrophysiology conference and I do not recall him
` presenting or publishing in that area.
` Q You did review the invalidity report he
` submitted in connection with this investigation,
` correct?
` A Yes, of course.
` Q And you disagree with the opinions he's
` offered in that report, correct?
` A Yes, I have disagreed.
` Q Are there any opinions he's offered in that
` report that you agree with?
` A I mean, his description of heart physiology
` is generally, of course, accurate. And also that
` ECG is a gold standard, the gold standard to
` diagnose atrial fibrillation or arrhythmias I also
` agree with.
` Q Are there any other opinions that he's
` offered that you agree with?
` A Probably. I mean, I have to go over his
` entire report, but of course his cardiology
` knowledge is solid.
` Q Are there -- so sitting here today, there
` aren't any other opinions that you can think of that
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`6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Page 20
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` you agree with, fair?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A It's hundreds and hundreds of pages of, you
` know, a report. We can go over the report and I can
` highlight for you what I agree with. But like I
` said, generally his knowledge of cardiology is
` generally accurate and I agree with it.
` Q Have you formed a professional opinion of
` Dr. Stultz in this case?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A Well, again, I only know him by this report.
` I don't know his work. I did not read any of his
` publications, so it's really hard to judge
` professionally without knowing work of a
` professional.
` Q So you don't have any opinion, professional
` opinion of Dr. Stultz, correct?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A I will have to review his articles to have
` this opinion and observe his lectures which I
` haven't had a chance.
` Q Have you reviewed his CV in connection with
` this case?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q And based on that CV, you have no
`
`Page 21
`
` professional opinion of Dr. Stultz other than what
` you've shared with me about his credentials?
` A Well, like I said, he is not in my field,
` but in general field of cardiology, he has a solid
` record. He has I believe, if I remember correctly,
` close to 100 publications which is a solid record.
` Q Now, you've been retained as an expert
` consultant in this case -- in this investigation I
` should say, by Quinn Emanuel on behalf of AliveCor,
` correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And you have an expert Consulting Agreement,
` correct?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And that expert Consulting Agreement is to
` provide expert testimony in connection with this
` investigation, correct?
` A It's one of the aspects, but also to submit
` report and analyze evidence.
` Q Sure. So if we talk about all of that
` together, your expert consultant arrangement then is
` to provide an expert opinion in this case -- in this
` investigation; fair?
` A Yes, in several forms, in writing and as a
` deposition and I will testify in the future.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`6
`
`

`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
`
`Page 22
`
` Q Other than this investigation, have you
` worked with AliveCor before?
` A No.
` Q When did you first learn of AliveCor?
` A I cannot recall exact date, but I would say
` quite early on when they come up with one of their
` first products, which was a little -- with two
` fingers -- forgot what it's called; not wearable,
` but ECG recorder.
` Q Was it -- does the Kardia mobile device ring
` a bell?
` A I think so, yes.
` Q And can you put a time frame around when you
` learned of AliveCor?
` A It was somewhere in mid-2010s I would say
` perhaps.
` Q In mid-2010 you recall that that Kardia
` mobile product was available?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A I'm not sure if it was yet available, but I
` do recall that at one of the professional
` conferences, they presented a poster which was
` well-received by the community, and it made some
` news. So basically that's how I learned about them.
` Q Do you recall what conference that was?
`
`Page 23
`
` A It would have been I would say either Heart
` Rhythm Society or perhaps American Heart
` Association.
` Q And they were presenting a poster on what
` sounds like it was the Kardia mobile product, is
` that correct?
` A I think so, yeah.
` Q After that conference and your first
` learning of AliveCor, when did you hear about them
` next?
` A Well, then soon afterwards they were all
` over the TV. They advertised this product. So I've
` seen it on the advertisement on TV.
` Q Did you ever buy the product?
` A Yes, I have it.
` Q And why did you buy the product?
` A As explained, I actually brought it to my
` classroom and we test it with our students quality
` of this product in terms of how well it records.
` And then we used it for class assignments. So for
` example, students would take their ECG and then they
` would analyze it.
` Q Did you ever buy any other AliveCor
` products?
` A Yes, I also bought the next also probably
`
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`7 (Pages 22 to 25)
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`Page 24
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` KardiaMobile or whatever it was called, but it's a
` six-lead device similar, but has one extra electrode
` which you put on your knee. But it allows not one
` lead, but six-lead ECG. And then also I bought
` KardiaBand when it became available.
` Q And why did you buy KardiaBand?
` A Like I said, it's the same story, I am --
` that's what I do professionally, I develop devices,
` both wearable and implantable for cardiac
` electrophysiology, for arrhythmia detection, for
` arrhythmia therapy. I founded the several companies
` in this space and I have patents in this space. I'm
` very passionate about this.
` Q So you bought the device because you're
` passionate about arrhythmia detection, is that
` right?
` A Detection therapy, mechanisms. So I studied
` mechanisms of arrhythmia development for 30 years,
` more than 30 years.
` Q And we named I guess three AliveCor
` products. What was your opinion of those products?
` A I felt that they record high-quality
` electrocardiogram and this is very useful. And most
` importantly, I felt that these products really
` address answer to a long-felt, unmet need to detect
`
`Page 25
`
` life-threatening arrhythmias such as atrial
` fibrillation in general population which was not
` possible before.
` Q So you felt that all three products recorded
` high-quality electrocardiograms, correct?
` A Well, they have differences, of course. But
` overall, all three, yes, they were quite useful in
` clinical diagnosis and provided a high-quality
` recording which can be used for clinical diagnosis
` by cardiologists, cardiac electrophysiologists.
` Q And you felt all three provided an answer to
` a long-felt, unmet need to detect life-threatening
` arrhythmias such as atrial fibrillation, correct?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q And you believe that need was unmet prior to
` AliveCor's products being launched on the market?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q Did you ever compare any AliveCor product to
` the Apple ECG that you've taken in the past?
` A I did not. Like I said, took it apart. I
` did not look at their technology. I didn't have a
` chance to examine their electronic component
` sensors, software; in this respect, no, I didn't.
` About I did look at electrograms recorded by both
` and they are both very reasonable.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`7
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`

`Confidential Business Information - Subject to The Protective Order
`Igor R. Efimov, Ph.D. - January 31, 2022
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`Page 26
`
` Q Do you view the products, in your expertise,
` as being different, the AliveCor products and the
` Apple products?
` MR. HOLMES: Objection to form.
` A Well, they have clearly different sensors,
` different level of integration. But again, I have
` no knowledge of whatever -- I didn't examine the
` software or sensors. In this respect, it's really
` hard to the about the differences or similarities.
` But they do seem to address the same unmet need.
` Q Did you -- I guess what did you mean when
` you said different level of integration?
` A Well, for example, initial Kardia mobile
` device is not integrated with anything physically.
` So it's a wireless communication with cellphone, not
` with watch. And it requires, you know, placing it
` on the back of a phone and then putting fingers on
` it or placing it on, you know, on your desktop and
` then putting fingers on it. It's different from
` what would have been, let's say, on an Apple Watch
` which is all-in-one device, or with KardiaBand, when
` it's basically integrated within the band of the
` watch but not within the watch.
` Q So I see. When you talk about level of
` integration, you're talking about interaction
`
`Page 27
`
` between the device and other devices, is that right?
` A It's one aspect, but not only. It's also a
` little of electronic integration. Like I said, you
` know, components can be integrated within one
` device, one footprint, one form factor. Or they can
` be separate components to a different degree and
` they can interact with one another within one
` physically -- like, for example, KardiaBand is
` physically one device, but sensor -- ECG sensor is
` not within the watch. It's within the band.
` While, for example, KardiaMobile is
` physically different device, separate device even
` though it's also communicating with, let's say,
` cellphone, with iPhone or Samsung phone via
` bluetooth. Actually I don't know which particular
` protocol they use, probably bluetooth or wi-fi.
` Q So for KardiaMobile then, in terms of the
` level of integration, the processing of the signals
` was not on the device, correct; it was on the
` iPhone?
` A No, no. The recording itself was a separate
` device, but then it interacts with iPhone. As far
` as I know, first version, if I remember correctly