In the Matter Of:
`
`Unified Patents VS Velos Media
`
`Confidential Kevin Jakel
`
`August 23, 2019
`
`
`
`[III
`
`REPORTING
`
`934 Glenwood Ave SE
`
`Suite 250
`
`Atlanta, GA 30316
`
`355.4?33376
`
`1
`
`ETRI 2003
`Unified v. ETRI
`|PR2021-00827
`
`1
`
`ETRI 2003
`Unified v. ETRI
`IPR2021-00827
`
`
`
`Unified Patents VS Velos Media
`
`Confidential Kevin Jakel
`
`August 23, 2019
`
`
`
`[III
`
`REPORTING
`
`934 Glenwood Ave SE
`
`Suite 250
`
`Atlanta, GA 30316
`
`355.4?33376
`
`1
`
`ETRI 2003
`Unified v. ETRI
`|PR2021-00827
`
`1
`
`ETRI 2003
`Unified v. ETRI
`IPR2021-00827
`
`
`
`Unified Patents vs Velos Media
`
`Confidential Kevin Jakel
`
`08/23/2019
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`UNIFIED PATENTS,
`
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`VS.
`
`.
`:Case IPR2019—00194
`
`VELOS MEDIA; LLC,
`
`:Patent 9,338,449
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`""" naggingiaraigg;gimme ORDERm
`
`Washington, D.C.
`
`Friday, August 23, 2019
`
`videotaped Deposition of:
`
`KEVIN JAKEL
`
`called for oral examination by counsel for the
`
`patent owner, pursuant to notice, at Wilmer, Cutler,
`
`Pickering, Hale and Dorr, L.L.P., 1875 Pennsylvania
`
`Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C., before Sheri C.
`
`Stewart, RMR, of IST Reporting, a Notary Public in
`
`and for the District of Columbia beginning at
`
`10:11 a.m., when were present on behalf of the
`
`respective parties:
`
`
`
`
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`IJII
`
`REPORTIMS
`
`IE}: ER:
`""
`
`Page 1
`934 Glenwood Ave SE, Suite 250
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Atlanta, GA 30316 | 855-478-7376
`|PR2019-00194
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 2
`Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel
`
`2
`
`
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`2 On behalf of Petitioner:
`
`3 ASHRAF FAWZY, ESQUIRE
` Unified Patents
`4 1875 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Floor 10
` Washington, D.C. 20009
`5 (240) 505-3675
` AFawzy@UnifiedPatents.com
`
` On behalf of Patent Owner:
`
`6 7
`
`8 CHRISTOPHER GRANAGHAN, ESQUIRE
` Nelson, Bumgardner, Albritton
`9 3131 West 7th Street, Suite 300
` Fort Worth, Texas 76107
`10 (817) 806-3811
` Chris@nbafirm.com
`11
`
`12 Also present: Ray Moore, Videographer
`
`13
`
`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
`
`22
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 3 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`3
`
`
`
`1 C O N T E N T S
`
`2 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
`
`3 MR. GRANAGHAN 6
`
`4 MR. FAWZY 208
`
`5 MR. GRANAGHAN 217
`
`6 VELOS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: PAGE
`
`7 2015 Part two of a written interview given
`
`8 by Jakel to Above the Law 57
`
`9 2016 Final written decision in Unified Patents,
`
`10 Inc. versus Uniloc USA, Inc. and Uniloc
`
`11 Luxembourg, S.A. 78
`
`12 2017 Petitioner's Supplemental Second Voluntary
`
`13 Interrogatory Responses 107
`
`14 2018 Member agreement between Unified and
`
`15
`
`16
`
` 116
`
`17 2019 Post from Unified's Web site dated
`
`18 November 8, 2018 144
`
`19 2020 Post from a filing of a different IPR
`
`20 against Velos patent 153
`
`21 2021 Blog post from Unified's Web site dated
`
`22 January 9, 2019 158
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 4 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`4
`
`
`
`1 EXHIBITS (CONTINUED)
`
`2 VELOS DEPOSITION EXHIBITS: PAGE
`
`3 2022 LinkedIn post from Shawn Ambwani 177
`
`4 2023 Mass e-mail from Fred Teleki (phonetic)
`
`5 to a number of people about the Velos
`
`6 licensing program 177
`
`7 2024 Document titled Unified Files IPR Against
`
`8 US 9,338,449 Owned by Velos Media LLC 189
`
`9 2025 Unified Patents newsletter from November
`
`10 2018 196
`
`11 PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`12 VELOS 2003 LinkedIn post by Mr. Ambwani
`
`13 VELOS 2010 Web page from Unified Patents' Web
`
`14 site pulled from the wayback machine
`
`15 UNIFIED 1014 Unified's Voluntary Interrogatory
`
`16 Responses
`
`17 (*Exhibits attached to transcript.)
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 5 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`5
`
`
`
`1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the
`
`2 record. This begins DVD No. 1 in the
`
`3 deposition of Kevin Jakel in the matter of
`
`4 Unified Patents, Incorporated versus Velos
`
`5 Media, LLC, in the United States Patent and
`
`6 Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
`
`7 Appeal Board, Case No. IPR2019-00194. Today is
`
`8 August 23rd, 2019. The time is 10:11 a.m.
`
`9 This deposition is being taken at 1875
`
`10 Pennsylvania Avenue, Northwest, Washington,
`
`11 D.C., at the request of Nelson Bumgardner. The
`
`12 videographer is Ray Moore of IST Court
`
`13 Reporting and the court reporter is Sheri
`
`14 Stewart of IST Court Reporting.
`
`15 Will counsel and all parties present state
`
`16 their appearances and whom they represent.
`
`17 MR. GRANAGHAN: Chris Granaghan from the
`
`18 law firm Nelson, Bumgardner, Albritton for the
`
`19 patent owner.
`
`20 MR. FAWZY: Ashraf Fawzy, in-house counsel
`
`21 at Unified Patents on behalf of Unified
`
`22 Patents.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 6 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`6
`
`
`
`1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`
`2 please swear in the witness.
`
`3 P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`4 WHEREUPON,
`
`5 KEVIN JAKEL
`
`6 called as a witness, and having been first duly
`
`7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`
`8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Please proceed.
`
`9 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PATENT OWNER
`
`10 BY MR. GRANAGHAN:
`
`11 Q Good morning, Mr. Jakel. State your name
`
`12 for the record, please.
`
`13 A Hi. Kevin Jakel.
`
`14 Q You're the unified CEO, right?
`
`15 A I am Unified CEO.
`
`16 Q When I say Unified, I mean Unified
`
`17 Patents, obviously.
`
`18 You've been deposed before?
`
`19 A I have.
`
`20 Q About how many times?
`
`21 A Maybe six to ten times.
`
`22 Q All in IPRs?
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 7 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`7
`
`
`
`1 A No. One previous deposition took place
`
`2 many, many years ago related to transfer of some
`
`3 boxes from one law firm to another and whether or
`
`4 not some materials were in those boxes a long time
`
`5 ago.
`
`6 Q All the other times were IPRs?
`
`7 A All the other times have been related to
`
`8 Unified as part of an IPR proceeding.
`
`9 Q Has anyone from Unified ever testified in
`
`10 an IPR proceeding other than you?
`
`11 A Shawn Ambwani. In my very first IPR, I
`
`12 gave a deposition.
`
`13 Q On real party-in-interest issues?
`
`14 A On real party-in-interest issues.
`
`15 Q Okay. But since then it's always been
`
`16 you?
`
`17 A He had, at that time, he had only been at
`
`18 the company for a couple weeks, but it's always been
`
`19 me.
`
`20 Q Are you an attorney, Mr. Jakel?
`
`21 A I am.
`
`22 Q Where did you go to law school?
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 8 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`8
`
`
`
`1 A GW.
`
`2 Q Can you give me some of your background
`
`3 starting with law school?
`
`4 A Sure. So I moved out to Washington, D.C.
`
`5 and went to work at the USPTO as a patent examiner.
`
`6 I went to law school. I graduated from GW in 2003
`
`7 or 2004. I then was an attorney at Howrey and then
`
`8 was an attorney with Kaye Scholer and ultimately
`
`9 became, or I ultimately left Kaye Scholer to become
`
`10 head of IP litigation at Intuit and then I left
`
`11 Intuit in 2012 to found Unified Patents.
`
`12 Q Do you still consider yourself the
`
`13 practice of law?
`
`14 A I do.
`
`15 Q Where are you licensed?
`
`16 A In California and D.C.
`
`17 Q All right. So I'm -- sounds like you have
`
`18 some pretty extensive deposition experience, so I'm
`
`19 going to assume that you know the ground rules. I'm
`
`20 happy to go over them if you want, but I assume you
`
`21 know them.
`
`22 A I do.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 9 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`9
`
`
`
`1 Q Okay. What did you do to prepare for this
`
`2 deposition today?
`
`3 A Yesterday we went over just some of the
`
`4 voluntary interrogatories and some of the materials
`
`5 that were in the briefing.
`
`6 Q Who is "we"?
`
`7 A Myself and Ash Fawzy.
`
`8 Q Okay. Did you talk to anyone else to get
`
`9 ready for the deposition?
`
`10 A I did not.
`
`11 Q Other than the voluntary interrogatory
`
`12 responses did you review any documents?
`
`13 MR. FAWZY: I'm just going to caution the
`
`14 witness not to divulge anything we talked about
`
`15 during the -- any privileged information during
`
`16 the preparation of this deposition.
`
`17 BY MR. GRANAGHAN:
`
`18 Q And I'm not asking for any of your
`
`19 communication with your counsel. Just did you
`
`20 review any documents?
`
`21 A I did review documents.
`
`22 Q Did you review briefing on the motion for
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 10 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`10
`
`
`
`1 additional discovery?
`
`2 A That document was not, no.
`
`3 Q Okay. What other documents did you
`
`4 review?
`
`5 MR. FAWZY: I'm going to object. What we
`
`6 reviewed is privileged.
`
`7 BY MR. GRANAGHAN:
`
`8 Q Okay. Are you going to follow that
`
`9 instruction?
`
`10 A Yes.
`
`11 Q All right. Were you the first CEO of
`
`12 Unified Patents?
`
`13 A Yes.
`
`14 Q And when did you start it?
`
`15 A I started Unified Patents in the summer of
`
`16 2012.
`
`17 Q And just before that you were an attorney
`
`18 at Intuit, right?
`
`19 A I was.
`
`20 Q Why did you start Unified?
`
`21 A I saw a business opportunity to do
`
`22 deterrent work for technology areas related to the
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 11 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`11
`
`
`
`1 monetization of patents by nonpracticing entities.
`
`2 Q What made you see that business
`
`3 opportunity?
`
`4 A It's kind of a long story. Do you want
`
`5 the whole thing?
`
`6 Q Sure.
`
`7 A So joint defense groups -- my experience
`
`8 was both from an outside counsel perspective at Kaye
`
`9 Scholer and Howrey and then again as head of IP
`
`10 litigation at Intuit. Joint defense groups were
`
`11 wildly ineffective and slow where you depend on your
`
`12 fair share of joint defense groups. In many cases
`
`13 nothing got done.
`
`14 And when it came to NPE litigation in
`
`15 particular, it's not just one company that is facing
`
`16 the, kind of a common issue, there were other
`
`17 solutions out there, namely, RPX, that their model
`
`18 of doing kind of patent risk mitigation was to try
`
`19 and buy companies out of expensive litigation.
`
`20 My problem with that was that it kind
`
`21 of incentivizes NPEs to take some of the profits
`
`22 they get from RPX, reinvest them and go out and buy
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 12 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`12
`
`
`
`1 more patents, so it incentivizes everyone to kind of
`
`2 have more NPE litigation.
`
`3 My problem was that lots and lots of
`
`4 patents -- actually, across the board there's lot of
`
`5 patents that are invalid, but in particular it's
`
`6 lots of patents that I felt like were invalid that
`
`7 were asserted by NPEs, and so I wanted to start a
`
`8 company that would have a way to deter people making
`
`9 investments into asserting patents in the NPE space.
`
`10 There's, you know, patent owners,
`
`11 people who buy patents. There are patent licensing
`
`12 entities who are in charge of doing that. There's
`
`13 the contingency counsel who take on NPE matters and
`
`14 there's obviously kind of litigation funding from
`
`15 behind the scene. All of those entities are making
`
`16 kind of investment decisions into, you know, who
`
`17 they want to sue, how they want to sue, technologies
`
`18 they want to sue, and what I wanted to do was kind
`
`19 of deter the use of bad patents so that technology
`
`20 areas were not sued over and over and over and over
`
`21 again.
`
`22 And so I came up with this idea kind
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 13 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`13
`
`
`
`1 of in the, in early kind of 2012, and then worked on
`
`2 that and ultimately decided to make a run at it and
`
`3 see if I could start a company that would do that
`
`4 kind of deterrence work in the summer of 2012.
`
`5 Q And for the record, when you say NPE, do
`
`6 you mean non-practicing entity?
`
`7 A I do.
`
`8 Q So is it fair to say that one of your main
`
`9 goals in starting Unified was to fix the
`
`10 inefficiencies of joint defense groups when
`
`11 companies in those joint defense groups are
`
`12 litigating against NPEs?
`
`13 MR. FAWZY: Object to form.
`
`14 A It wasn't, it wasn't like to fix the
`
`15 efficiencies of the joint defense groups. I wanted
`
`16 a kind of third-party to do something that no one
`
`17 else could kind of do, which was create deterrents.
`
`18 Joint defense groups aren't about creating
`
`19 deterrents. Joint defense groups were about, you
`
`20 know, kind of everyone working and doing their own
`
`21 kind of litigation strategies and stuff.
`
`22 I'm not trying to replace joint
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 14 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`14
`
`
`
`1 defense groups. Actually, the whole idea of being
`
`2 an entity that would be independent of all of that
`
`3 is that we would have kind of the ability to do our
`
`4 own thing. You can't really do deterrents as a
`
`5 joint defense group, that's kind of the idea. Being
`
`6 outside of that whole system it allows the
`
`7 third-party, in my view, in this case Unified, to
`
`8 create deterrents, and that is kind of the way in
`
`9 which I kind of view Unified going forward.
`
`10 BY MR. GRANAGHAN:
`
`11 Q Did the passage of the American Invents
`
`12 Act play into your decision to start Unified?
`
`13 A Not entirely. There were things about the
`
`14 American Invents Act that I thought would make the
`
`15 ability for us to create deterrents more productive,
`
`16 and actually I started working on this idea even
`
`17 before, even before the passage of the American
`
`18 Invents Act, I didn't know if it was going to pass,
`
`19 but I had thought around ideas of how you could use,
`
`20 back then, inter partes examination for this. I
`
`21 think we could have used inter partes through
`
`22 examination and done the same thing.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 15 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`15
`
`
`
`1 I do think that the, the procedures
`
`2 around the inter partes review are overall a better
`
`3 system and therefore, yeah, we take advantage of the
`
`4 AIA (phonetic) and the changes that were made to
`
`5 inter partes re-examination to bring about the PTAB
`
`6 and the IPR process.
`
`7 Q So other than the AIA's creation of inter
`
`8 partes review, are there other portions of the AIA
`
`9 that you saw as a benefit to your efforts to deter
`
`10 these?
`
`11 A I guess I -- I mean, a big part of the AIA
`
`12 was about bringing the U.S. laws into kind of
`
`13 consistency with international patent laws.
`
`14 Unified, I think, could have worked using inter
`
`15 parties re-examination. I mean, I guess when I say
`
`16 that there's aspects about it that I think are
`
`17 better, we don't have inter partes re-examination
`
`18 anymore, so it's not like, it's not like I have a
`
`19 choice between the two.
`
`20 So are there other aspects of the
`
`21 AIA? I mean, there's lots of things about the AIA.
`
`22 If you have some specifics, I might be able to tell
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 16 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`16
`
`
`
`1 you whether I think any of them benefit us, but
`
`2 ultimately having a good patent system, I think, is,
`
`3 is a good thing for both Unified and everybody else.
`
`4 Q When did Unified file its first IPR?
`
`5 A We filed our first IPR in the summer of
`
`6 2013.
`
`7 Q And you said you started Unified in 2012?
`
`8 A I did.
`
`9 Q Who did you start Unified with?
`
`10 A Started by myself. I left Intuit, I
`
`11 believe it was July of 2012, went out, started
`
`12 talking to people and companies about what I had in
`
`13 mind.
`
`14
`
`22 Q And has he left since then?
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 17 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`17
`
`
`
`1 A Yes.
`
`2 Q So do you,
`
`3 A
`
` So Brian Hinman left Unified in
`
`4 the summer of 2013 and at the time he left, Shawn
`
`5 Ambwani joined and
`
`7
`
`10 Q And Mr. Ambwani is the chief operating
`
`11 officer, right?
`
`12 A He is, yes.
`
`13 Q Who was Unified's first customer?
`
`14 MR. FAWZY: Objection.
`
`15 MR. GRANAGHAN: What's the objection?
`
`16 MR. FAWZY: To the form of the question.
`
`17 Unified doesn't have customers.
`
`18 A The first company to sign an agreement
`
`19 with Unified was NetApp.
`
`20 BY MR. GRANAGHAN:
`
`21 Q And you don't refer to them as customers;
`
`22 is that right?
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 18 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`18
`
`
`
`1 A I mean, everyone signs a membership
`
`2 agreement so we call them a member and they become a
`
`3 member of a zone and you could be a member of one
`
`4 zone, you could be a member of two zones, you could
`
`5 be a member of all of our zones. It's not like
`
`6 we -- we call them, if you have a membership
`
`7 agreement, so we refer to them all as members.
`
`8 Q Do you consider that as different than a
`
`9 customer?
`
`10 A I don't think so, no. They're customers,
`
`11 yeah.
`
`12 Q Is NetApp still a customer?
`
`13 A It is, yes.
`
`14 Q But it is --
`
`15
`
`16 A
`
`17
`
`18 Q So what kind of activities does Unified
`
`19 perform for its members?
`
`20 A So members sign up to a zone. A zone has
`
`21 a whole bunch of things that we do, data analytics,
`
`22 we do landscaping work, we do kind of research and
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 19 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`19
`
`
`
`1 analytics, we do prior art. We do all kinds of,
`
`2 kind of activities in the space. We want to be kind
`
`3 of the most knowledgeable people about all of the
`
`4 activity that's going on in a particular zone.
`
`5 We have tools and services that we
`
`6 provide through our portal that includes like patent
`
`7 quality tools and a whole bunch of other things.
`
`8 The big thing that all of our zones do is what we
`
`9 refer to as deterrence. That deterrence is kind of
`
`10 an independent service that we run to choose how
`
`11 we're going to create that deterrence.
`
`12 And we use IPRs to identify or we
`
`13 identify and then we file IPRs against patents we
`
`14 believe are invalid, and when doing so we try to
`
`15 show that those patents should never have been
`
`16 issued in the first place. We think that that
`
`17 deterrent strategy is designed to deter others --
`
`18 well, and the patent owner that we file against.
`
`19 But in addition to that, most
`
`20 important point, we want every IPR to have kind of
`
`21 an outsized deterrent impact so that others watching
`
`22 will also be deterred from bringing kind of invalid
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 20 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`20
`
`
`
`1 patents and trying to entice those in our zones.
`
`2 Q What percentage of Unified's expenditures
`
`3 today are spent on IPRs?
`
`4 A So as part of our total expenditures, IPRs
`
`5 are like one of the most expensive parts of what we
`
`6 do, it's simply because they're expensive, but we
`
`7 think that all the other stuff we do is important as
`
`8 well. But IPRs are kind of a, one of the more
`
`9 expensive parts of what we do for them.
`
`10 Q Do you know, ballpark percentage, of the
`
`11 expenditures that you have on IPRs?
`
`12 A So of our expenditures, IPRs would make up
`
`13 the largest percentage of it.
`
`14
`
`. In our
`
`15 standard essential patent zone, the video codec
`
`16 zone, it makes up a
`
` of our
`
`17 expenditures because we have done some other work
`
`18 that's quite expensive as well.
`
`19 We have done an economic analysis of
`
`20 HEVC and as part of that, that was a rather
`
`21 expensive endeavor as well. We also developed some
`
`22 tools, landscaping tools, curated data around that,
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 21 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`21
`
`
`
`1 which is also pretty expensive. And we've also done
`
`2 some additional kind of database work around
`
`3 submissions to the standard setting bodies, that has
`
`4 been pretty expensive as well.
`
`5 So our standard essential patent
`
`6 zone, actually the expenditures on IPRs is
`
`7 it would be in our NPE zone.
`
`8 Q When you say "standard essential patent
`
`9 zone", are there zones within the standard essential
`
`10 patent zone?
`
`11 A Let me just maybe break this up. We
`
`12 originally started working on NPE matters and we
`
`13 called those kind of NPE zones. And then in -- when
`
`14 we started working on standard essential patent
`
`15 issues, SEP issues, we created another part of the
`
`16 business that would be kind of working on standard
`
`17 essential patent licensing issues. And inside that
`
`18 we have a standard essential patent zone. We
`
`19 would -- you know, we're always working on creating
`
`20 new standard essential patent zones around other
`
`21 standards. LTE is an example or Wi-Fi or 5G or, you
`
`22 know, any of the other standards, USB, I don't know,
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 22 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`22
`
`
`
`1 there's tons of other standards.
`
`2 So each of those other standards
`
`3 would possibly get their own zone for us to be doing
`
`4 this kind of work on standard essential patent areas
`
`5 on each of those standards.
`
`6 Q So just to make sure I'm clear, though,
`
`7 the SEP zone is not synonymous with the video codec
`
`8 zone. The video codec zone is based on within this
`
`9 SEP area, right?
`
`10 A Yes, correct. Yes, absolutely.
`
`11 Q So going back to the expenditures and IPR.
`
`12 Do you know a percentage in number, percentage of
`
`13 Unified's expenditures, that it spent on IPRs?
`
`14 A As a percentage, I do not. I haven't
`
`15 tracked, as a percentage, expenditures in the video
`
`16 codec zone and a specific amount that is related to
`
`17 the filing of IPRs.
`
`18 Q Do you think it's more or less than
`
`19
`
`?
`
`20 A
`
`21 Q You think it's
`
`?
`
`22 A I don't know.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 23 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`23
`
`
`
`1 Q How many employees does Unified currently
`
`2 have?
`
`3 A I believe we currently have 14 employees.
`
`4 Q How many of those are attorneys?
`
`5 A Most of them. I have to try to count them
`
`6 up. I can, if you want me to.
`
`7 Q Yeah. Go ahead and do it. When I say
`
`8 attorneys, I mean how many are actually practicing
`
`9 attorneys, would you consider?
`
`10 A All of the attorneys that are -- all of
`
`11 the attorneys that are working at Unified are
`
`12 licensed attorneys to practice law.
`
`13 Q All right.
`
`14 A So they're all practicing attorneys.
`
`15 Q Okay.
`
`16 A I think 11 out of 14 are attorneys.
`
`17 Q And what are their responsibilities at
`
`18 Unified?
`
`19 A We have a department of attorneys that are
`
`20 responsible for overseeing and doing legal work
`
`21 related to IPRs. We have -- well, I'm an attorney
`
`22 so I'm in charge of kind of all of the operations
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 24 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`24
`
`
`
`1 and I oversee the legal department. I oversee all
`
`2 the departments too, so I'm engaged in all of that.
`
`3 Shawn is an attorney and he
`
`4 participates in all of that activity as well.
`
`12
`
`17 Q And how many attorneys are in the
`
`18 department?
`
`19 A So that department, not including myself
`
`20 or Shawn, who both are in that department, by the
`
`21 way, but I'm just going to -- I'll include us too,
`
`22 so that would
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 25 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`25
`
`
`
`1 Q Okay. And how is work divied up within
`
`2 that, within the department? Are certain attorneys
`
`3 assigned to a certain zone or is it divied up
`
`4 another way?
`
`5 A
`
`22 Q
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 26 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`26
`
`
`
`1
`
`5 A
`
`6 Q
`
`9 A
`
`12 Q Okay.
`
`14 A
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 27 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`27
`
`
`
`1 Q So what do you do day-to-day as Unified's
`
`2 CEO?
`
`3 A So day-to-day any given day would include
`
`4 some, you know, just like over, overhead kind of
`
`5 running the company. Anything from HR to payroll to
`
`6 management meetings, meeting with people. It would
`
`7 include kind of engaging with the legal department
`
`8 around the filing of IPRs and that process. It
`
`9 would include business development and, you know,
`
`10 kind of strategy and pipeline issues for Unified.
`
`11 Finance would make up another aspect
`
`12 of it, just being on top of budgeting for the entire
`
`13 company. All of that would go into kind of my
`
`14 day-to-day activities.
`
`15 Q Do you interface with Unified's members?
`
`16 A I do.
`
`17 Q How much of your time is spent doing that?
`
`18 A Not very much. If there's an opportunity
`
`19 to engage. I mean, there's no, like, schedule for
`
`20 me to engage. If there's a reason to talk with
`
`21 someone, I do, but I don't -- like specific
`
`22 questions on what type of engagement.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 28 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`28
`
`
`
`1 Q How do you usually talk to them? Phone,
`
`2 e-mail, text?
`
`3 A Phone would be the biggest means of
`
`4 communication.
`
`5 Q What kind of things do you usually talk to
`
`6 the members about?
`
`7 A Most of what we're talking about is going
`
`8 to be like activity in the industry, understanding
`
`9 the NPE litigation is going up, NPE litigation is
`
`10 going down. If there's any type of like industry
`
`11 information about how their industry is doing, if
`
`12 there's lots of investment in startups, if the
`
`13 industry is growing or retracting, whether or not
`
`14 that's an indication that NPE activity in the long
`
`15 run is going to be high or going to be low.
`
`16 If we're talking about like the
`
`17 standard of essential patent zones, we're talking
`
`18 about kind of issues around transparency of SEP
`
`19 licensing, case law around SEP licensing, economic
`
`20 issues of SEP licensing, the standard essential,
`
`21 sorry, the standard setting bodies and how they work
`
`22 and what they're doing and all of the things around
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 29 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`29
`
`
`
`1 these issues would all be -- have industry
`
`2 information that are constantly looking to learn
`
`3 from.
`
`4 These same conversations happen with
`
`5 me with nonmembers too. Like this is the same
`
`6 industry information topics that we're going to be
`
`7 talking with everyone about.
`
`8 Q Is it usually Unified giving members and
`
`9 nonmembers industry information or are these members
`
`10 and nonmembers giving you guys industry information?
`
`11 A This is -- I guess it's a little bit of
`
`12 both. I mean, it's kind of just like this is not --
`
`13 industry information, when I say industry
`
`14 information, I'm talking about like just public
`
`15 information. None of this is like confidential or
`
`16 anything. It's like public knowledge about kind of
`
`17 what's going on in the industry. When I talk about
`
`18 NPE trends it's just like litigation data. Is NPE
`
`19 activity going up in an area, is it going down in an
`
`20 area, you know, what are they seeing. Are they
`
`21 feeling like the NPE activity is going up or going
`
`22 down. We track all the litigation that's out there.
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 30 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`30
`
`
`
`1 So all this public information is
`
`2 kind of something that we would be talking about so
`
`3 it's kind of just like this is not like a data dump
`
`4 from them to us or a data dump from us to them.
`
`5 This is just what is everyone feeling about a
`
`6 particular issue. If it's NPE stuff, it's NPE kind
`
`7 of public data about NPEs. If it is SEP stuff it's,
`
`8 you know, public data we've learned or heard about
`
`9 or they've heard or learned about, about the SEP
`
`10 industry.
`
`11 Q Did you talk to these third parties about
`
`12 specific patents with them?
`
`13 A We do not talk about specific patents.
`
`14 So, I mean, I don't think the answer is -- the
`
`15 answer is no, I mean, this is not like a -- we do
`
`16 not talk to our members about a specific patent. We
`
`17 don't really talk to third parties about specific
`
`18 patents either. That's not really the type of
`
`19 engagement we have with our membership or with third
`
`20 parties.
`
`21 Q What about patents, nonspecific patents
`
`22 but patent portfolios?
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 31 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`31
`
`
`
`1 A Well, no. I mean, we don't really talk
`
`2 about specific patent portfolios either. There are,
`
`3 there are big portfolios that get mentioned all the
`
`4 time, Intellectual Ventures, nonintellectual --
`
`5 Intellectual Ventures, really, really well known.
`
`6 Intellectual Ventures is selling patents to NPEs at
`
`7 a remarkable rate. They're really one of the big
`
`8 sources of patents right now.
`
`9 Just as an example of a portfolio
`
`10 that would have come up at conferences and
`
`11 conversations and everything about what's going on,
`
`12 in zones, outside of zones, general information.
`
`13 So, yeah, I mean of course portfolios come up as an
`
`14 example. Intellectual Ventures is an example of one
`
`15 of those.
`
`16 In the SEP space, we also talk about,
`
`17 like, all the big players that are out there. So
`
`18 there are some, as I'm sure you're aware, there are
`
`19 three major patent pools around the SEP space, MPEG
`
`20 LA, HEVC Advance, Velos Media.
`
`21 So these, these are like portfolios,
`
`22 I guess, or like big topics. All of this gets kind
`
`Unified Patents Inc. v. Velos Media, LLC
`Velos Media, LLC EX2027 - 32 Transcript of Deposition of Kevin Jackel IPR2019-00194
`
`32
`
`
`
`1 of -- this is industry information and knowledge.
`
`2 This is talked about in the context of all, all SEP
`
`3 information. This is the ecosystem around what is
`
`4 currently the standard essential patent licensing
`
`5 related to HEVC.
`
`6 Q So you have talked to your customers about
`
`7 Velos?
`
`8 A We have.
`
`9 MR. FAWZY: Objection, vague.
`
`10 A We have talked to everyone that's, that's
`
`11 dealing with or engaged in SEP licensing issues on
`
`12 HEVC. We've talked to all of them about MPEG LA,
`
`13 HEVC Advance and Velos Media in the context of that
`
`14 being the ecosystem that is currently being licensed
`
`15 in the,
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