UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`VOLKSWAGEN GROUP OF AMERICA, )
`INC.,
`Petitioner,
`vs.
`STRATOSAUDIO, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`------------------------------
`
`))
`
`))
`
` Case IPR2021-712
`) US Patent No.
`) 8,903,307
`
`))
`
`)
`
`PETITIONER'S NOTICE OF DEPOSITION
`JOHN C. HART, Ph.D.
`March 31, 2022
`9:00 AM
`at
`Hilton Garden Inn
`1501 S. Neil Street
`Champaign, Illinois
`
`June Haeme: CSR # 084-003038
`Gabriel Martin, Video Specialist
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`VW EX1019
`VW v. StratosAudio
`IPR2021-00716
`
`1
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`VOLKSWAGEN GROUP OF AMERICA, )
`INC.,
`Petitioner,
`vs.
`STRATOSAUDIO, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`------------------------------
`
`))
`
`))
`
` Case IPR2021-712
`) US Patent No.
`) 8,903,307
`
`))
`
`)
`
`PETITIONER'S NOTICE OF DEPOSITION
`JOHN C. HART, Ph.D.
`March 31, 2022
`9:00 AM
`at
`Hilton Garden Inn
`1501 S. Neil Street
`Champaign, Illinois
`
`June Haeme: CSR # 084-003038
`Gabriel Martin, Video Specialist
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`VW EX1019
`VW v. StratosAudio
`IPR2021-00716
`
`1
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`2
`
` INDEX
`
`APPEARANCES:
`For the Petitioner:
` Michael Specht
` Timothy L. Tang
` Attorneys at Law
` Sterne Kessler Goldstein & Fox, PLLC
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005-3934
` 202.371.2600
` ttang@sternekessler@com
`
`For the Patent Owner:
` John Scheibeler
` Attorney at Law
` White & Case, LLP
` 1221 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, NY 10020-1095
` 212.819.8830
` jscheibeler@whitecase.com
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`3
`
`EXAMINATION BY:
` Mr. Specht......................... 5
`
`EXHIBITS:
`StratosAudio Exhibit 2019.................... 8
`Declaration of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`US Patent No. 8,903,307, pages 1-99
`StratosAudio Exhibit 2019.................... 16
`Declaration of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`US Patent No. 8,688,028, pages 1-98
`Volkswagen Exhibit 1001...................... 26
`US Patent 8,903,307
`Volkswagen Exhibit 1001...................... 26
`US Patent 8,688,028
`Volkswagen Exhibit 1004...................... 86
`US Patent 5,579,537 (Takahisa)
`Volkswagen Exhibit 1003...................... 103
`Declaration of Vijay Madisetti, Ph.D.
`US Patent No. 8,903,307, pages 1-129
`Volkswagen Exhibit 1005...................... 124
`US Patent No. 6,317,784 (Mackintosh)
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`4
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` (Commencing at 8:58 a.m.)
` VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the record.
`Here begins tape number one in the video deposition
`of John Hart, Ph.D., in the matter of Volkswagen
`Group of America, Inc., versus StratosAudio, Inc.,
`in the United States Patent and Trademark Office,
`Case Number IPR 2021-00723 and IPR 2021-00716.
`Today's date is March 31st, 2022, and the time on
`the video monitor is now 8:59 a.m.
` The videographer today is Gabriel Martin
`representing Planet Depo. This video deposition is
`taking place at Hilton Garden Inn, 1501 South Neil
`Street, Champaign, Illinois.
` For the record, will counsel please
`introduce yourself and whom they represent?
` MR. SPECHT: This is Michael Specht with
`the firm of Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein and Fox, and
`I represent Volkswagen Group of America. And I
`would just like to clarify. You indicated that this
`is the matter IPR 2021-00723. It is actually the
`matter IPR 2021-00712 and IPR 2021-00716. Thank
`you.
` MR. SCHEIBELER: This is John Scheibeler
`from White and Case for the patent owner
`StratosAudio and for the witness.
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`5
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` VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today is
`June Haeme representing Planet Depo. Will the
`reporter please swear in the witness?
` JOHN C. HART,
`having first been duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY
` MR. SPECHT:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Hart. To get us
`rolling, could you please state your full name for
`the record?
` A. Sure. It's John C. Hart.
` Q. And do you know why you're here today?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And why is that?
` A. In the matter as mentioned earlier, I
`wrote a declaration in response to Dr. Madisetti's
`declaration.
` Q. And so it's your understanding you're here
`to testify regarding the declarations that you
`submitted in both of those proceedings, the 712 and
`the 716 proceeding, correct?
` A. Correct.
` MR. SPECHT: And, counsel, just so it's on
`the record, it's our understanding that this
`transcript will become part of the record for both
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
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`6
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`of those proceedings, correct?
` MR. SCHEIBELER: That's correct.
` MR. SPECHT: Okay.
` Q. Back to you, Dr. Hart, have you ever been
`deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And about how many times?
` A. I -- it's over ten. I haven't really kept
`track.
` Q. Within the last three or four years, last
`four years, how many times?
` A. I haven't counted over the last four
`years. It's been many times, between five and ten
`maybe.
` Q. Okay. And do you recall the subject
`matter of those depositions?
` A. They're all technical in nature regarding
`graphics, interactive techniques.
` Q. So you're pretty familiar with this
`process.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Nonetheless, I'll go through a few ground
`rules to make sure this day goes as smoothly and as
`efficiently as possible. First of all, most
`importantly, don't speak over one another. I'll ask
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`7
`
`the questions; you provide the answers. Let me
`finish speaking before you answer, and I will do the
`same when you're answering. Make sense?
` And also provide verbal answers. We do
`have the video, but obviously for the court
`reporter, she needs verbal answers. I will do my
`best to provide clear questions. That said, if you
`don't understand them, let me know. If you don't
`let me know that you're confused by the question, I
`will assume you understand the question. Does that
`sound reasonable?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason that you can't testify
`truthfully today?
` A. No.
` Q. And are you under any medications that may
`impair your testimony in any way?
` A. No.
` Q. And just one additional rule. You
`understand during the deposition when I'm asking the
`questions, your counsel can't speak to you about the
`answers, correct? You understand that?
` A. Understood.
` Q. Okay. With respect to breaks, I will
`endeavor to take periodic breaks, typically every
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`8
`
`hour or so, but if at any time you need a break,
`just let me know. All I would ask is that, you
`know, if there's a pending question, we finish that
`question or a series of related questions. Make
`sense?
` A. Yes.
` Q. All right. And you understand that you're
`under oath and that requires you to tell the whole
`truth to the best of your knowledge, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. All right. And I am going to hand you a
`document that's marked StratosAudio Exhibit 2019.
`Take a look at it briefly or take as long as you
`want in fact. Have you seen this document before?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. And what is it?
` A. This is my declaration in response to Dr.
`Madisetti's declaration on the '307 patent.
` Q. Okay. And given that we do have the two
`proceedings, I guess this is another rule, if you
`will. We have the two proceedings. I will try to
`refer to this declaration as the '307 declaration.
`Later on, I'll provide you your other declaration in
`the '028 patent matter. I'll try to refer to that
`as the '028 declaration.
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`9
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` A. Understood.
` Q. Just to try to keep things coordinated and
`organized. In terms of the '307 declaration that
`you have in front of you, when was the last time you
`reviewed that document?
` A. Last night.
` Q. Okay. And if you could turn to page 78.
`You see a signature on that page?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is that your signature?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. And do you see a section Roman numeral XI
`above your signature?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Can you take a moment to just review that
`section?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you see the first statement says: I
`hereby declare that statements made herein of my own
`knowledge are true and that all statements made on
`information and belief are believed to be true. Did
`I read that correctly?
` A. Yes, you did.
` Q. And is it still your view that the
`statements that are made herein are true?
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
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`10
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And you see the second sentence: I
`reserve the right to revise or supplement my
`opinions as additional information becomes
`available. Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes, you did.
` Q. Since you signed your declaration, are you
`aware of any additional information that has become
`available?
` A. No.
` Q. And then lastly, the last sentence
`indicates or states: I declare under penalty of
`perjury that the foregoing declaration is true and
`correct. Did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And again, just to confirm, it is your
`view that all the statements in your declaration are
`true and correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And are there any changes, typos, edits
`that you would like to make at this time that
`you've -- in the course of your review you've come
`across?
` A. Nothing substantive. There are the
`occasional typos. One that I recall is at the end
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`11
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`of paragraph 40, there's a closing parentheses that
`doesn't have an opening parentheses, so things like
`that.
` Q. So noted. Now, if you could turn to page
`or not page but paragraph 8 of the '307 declaration.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So in the preparation of the declaration,
`have you reviewed any documents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And are those documents listed in
`paragraph 8 here?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I have a couple questions about those. So
`in the first portion of that segment or section, you
`indicate that you reviewed the declaration of Vijay
`Madisetti, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And just to confirm, that's the
`declaration, his declaration in the '307 proceeding
`as well?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you indicate you reviewed the
`petition, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. You then state that you reviewed the prior
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`12
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`art references cited therein. What prior art
`references are you referring to there? And I can
`give you Dr. Madisetti's declaration if that would
`be helpful.
` A. I don't recall the specific list of prior
`art references off the top of my head. I believe it
`would have included, for example, Takahisa and
`Mackintosh.
` Q. And you then go on to say that you
`reviewed the specification and claims of the '307
`patent, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And then also the prosecution history of
`the '307 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And did you review the entire prosecution
`history of the '307 patent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you indicate you reviewed the PTAB's
`institution decision, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Did you review the entirety of the
`institution decision?
` A. I believe so, yes.
` Q. And when you say you reviewed these
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`13
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`documents, what was the extent of your review?
` A. I read through them.
` Q. About how long do you think you spent
`reviewing these documents in your reading through
`them?
` A. Well, some of them quite extensively. For
`example, Dr. Madisetti's declaration, that would
`have been over the course of a significant amount of
`time.
` Q. Are you aware that there is a co-pending
`litigation to these PTAB proceedings?
` A. Yeah, I believe so.
` Q. Do you understand what a Markman order is?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are you aware that a Markman order issued
`in the co-pending litigation?
` A. Vaguely, yes.
` Q. And did you review that Markman order in
`the preparation of your declaration?
` A. To the extent it would have been part of
`the PTAB institution decision, I would have.
` Q. So you didn't review the Markman order
`itself; is that correct?
` A. If it was provided as part of the PTAB
`institution decision, then I would have reviewed it.
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`14
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` Q. So if it wasn't a part of the institution
`decision, you would not have reviewed it.
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And did you review any claim construction
`positions taken by StratosAudio in the co-pending
`district court litigation in preparation of your
`declaration?
` A. No, not as part of any co-pending
`litigation. I only reviewed the materials here
`including the PTAB institution decision and any
`materials provided there.
` Q. In preparing your deposition or your
`declaration, the '307 declaration, did you speak
`with anyone?
` A. Yes, I spoke with counsel.
` Q. And when you say counsel, counsel for
`StratosAudio?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you recall specifically who you
`spoke with?
` MR. SCHEIBELER: Just caution the witness
`not to reveal the content of any conversations
`you've had with counsel for Stratos, but go ahead
`and answer.
` A. Thank you. John and Hallie.
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`15
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` Q. Fair enough.
` A. I'm not going to try to remember the last
`name.
` Q. Not critical. Other than counsel, did you
`speak with anyone else in the preparation of the
`'307 declaration?
` A. Not that I recall.
` Q. Do you know who Dr. William Mangione-Smith
`is?
` A. No. It's vaguely familiar, but --
` Q. So is it fair to say you have never spoken
`to Dr. William Mangione-Smith?
` A. I'd have to see the context. I don't -- I
`mean that name sounds familiar.
` Q. In the context of this proceeding.
` A. Not that I recall, no.
` Q. Okay. Have you ever heard of Dr. William
`Mangione-Smith?
` A. It rings familiar for some reason and I
`can't recall why.
` Q. Fair enough. In terms of the preparation
`for your -- of your declaration, roughly how much
`time would you estimate you spent preparing for the
`'307 or preparing your '307 declaration?
` A. It was somewhere between 50 and 100 hours.
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`Maybe 60 some hours.
` Q. And did you write your declaration?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. The entire declaration you wrote.
` A. Yes. This declaration embodies my
`opinions. These are all of my opinions. I stand by
`my opinions. There are sections of it, for example,
`the legal standards, that was provided to me by
`counsel and I adopted that language and I understood
`that language.
` Q. Okay. If you want to set that to the side
`for just a moment, we will come back to it, but I'm
`handing you another document that's marked actually
`StratosAudio Exhibit 2019. This is your declaration
`in the '028 proceeding. Have you seen this document
`before?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. And can you turn to page 78. I'm sorry,
`77.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. And you see a signature on that page?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And is that your signature?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. And so again, referring in this case to
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`17
`
`section Roman numeral X declaration, you see three
`statements above your name?
` A. Yes, I see those.
` Q. And you state again: I hereby declare the
`statements made herein of my own knowledge are true
`and that all statements made on information and
`belief are believed to be true. Did I read that
`correctly?
` A. Yes, you did.
` Q. Is it still your view that the statements
`made herein of your own knowledge are true?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you go on to say: I reserve the right
`to revise or supplement my opinions as additional
`information becomes available. Has any additional
`-- well, first of all, did I read that correctly?
` A. Yes, you did.
` Q. And then has any additional information
`with respect to the '0 -- your '028 declaration
`become available?
` A. No.
` Q. And finally, the last statement: You
`declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing
`declaration is true and correct. Did I read that
`correctly?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. And it is -- is it still your view that
`the statements in this declaration are true and
`correct?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. And with respect to the '028 declaration,
`are there any changes, edits, modifications that you
`need to make at this time other than the bracket?
` A. Nothing substantive again. There could be
`the occasional typo, but I believe everything is
`understood.
` Q. Fair enough. And the relationship between
`this declaration, the '028 declaration, and the '307
`declaration is what?
` A. The patents are on a similar subject
`matter. The claims I believe in the '028 are method
`claims and the claims in the '307 are systems
`claims, so there are some differences there, but the
`declaration -- the specifications of the patents are
`similar.
` Q. So as I can tell looking at the index of
`the '028 declaration and the '307 declaration that
`you have in front of you, the declarations largely
`mirror one another; is that correct?
` MR. SCHEIBELER: Objection, form.
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`19
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` A. So these declarations are in response to
`Dr. Madisetti's declarations, and so, for example,
`the '307 declaration, my '307 declaration has 11
`sections and my '028 section has 10 -- I mean '028
`declaration has 10 sections because of the
`differences in the -- Dr. Madisetti's declarations
`regarding the two patents.
` Q. And again, I assume that you've reviewed
`documents in preparation of the '028 declaration?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. And again, if we turn to paragraph 8 of
`the '028 patent declaration, that lists the
`documents you reviewed, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Similar questions as before and I'll focus
`in on the prior art references. You identify here
`that you reviewed prior art references cited
`therein. What prior art references are you
`referring to?
` A. As before, I believe, for example, the
`Takahisa and Mackintosh references.
` Q. And when you say therein, you're referring
`to therein in the Madisetti declaration; is that
`correct?
` A. I believe so. I -- I don't recall
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`20
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`specifically what I mean by therein in that
`particular instance. I did review Dr. Madisetti's
`declaration, I reviewed the petition, I reviewed
`those two references. If there's other citations in
`either of those documents, I'd have to look at them
`to determine the extent, but I did go through both
`of them.
` Q. Both of them. Them being the Madisetti
`declarations in each proceeding?
` A. And the petition, yeah.
` Q. And the petition, okay. Similar question
`as before, you're aware that there's a co-pending
`litigation, district court litigation to these IPR
`proceedings, correct?
` MR. SCHEIBELER: Objection.
` A. Yes.
` MR. SCHEIBELER: Objection, form.
` A. Yes, I understand that.
` Q. Yeah. And have you reviewed the Markman
`order as it relates to the claims of the '028
`patent?
` A. No. Not to my knowledge, no. I would
`have reviewed the PTAB institution decision and any
`documents associated with that.
` Q. Okay. When did you or when did
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`21
`
`StratosAudio contact you to work on these matters?
` A. It must have -- it was at the end of 2022.
`Wait, we're in 2022. The end of 2021.
` Q. Okay. And by end, we're talking fourth
`quarter?
` A. Yeah, yeah.
` Q. And what was your process for deciding
`whether to take on this matter?
` MR. SCHEIBELER: Just caution the witness
`not to reveal the content of any attorney/client
`communications. Otherwise, go ahead.
` A. Any time I'm approached for a case such as
`this, I would look at the material involved to make
`sure that it was suitable for my expertise, to make
`sure that the parties involved didn't introduce any
`conflicts of interest, and my own availability. If
`it passes all of those tests, then I will take the
`-- I will offer my services for that matter.
` Q. And so did you review the '028 and '307
`patents as part of that decision process?
` A. At that point, I would have only reviewed
`them insofar as to ensure that the topic that they
`covered, the subject matter, was within my
`expertise.
` Q. Prior to being engaged by StratosAudio,
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`22
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`had you heard of StratosAudio?
` A. Not off the top of my head, I don't recall
`if I had or not, but probably not.
` Q. Going back, you commented before and your
`c.v. identifies a number of other cases you've
`worked on. Are you aware of any time that your
`testimony in any of those cases has been
`discredited?
` A. No.
` Q. Discounted in any way?
` A. I believe there was a matter a while ago
`involving software licensing and somebody
`circumventing some software licensing, and I opined
`about the ethics of the Association of Computing
`Machinery. I believe ultimately that opinion was
`not a legal opinion, I'm not a lawyer, and so I
`think that was recognized as not being a, you know,
`legal opinion in that case. I think that's the
`closest I've ever come to having something like
`that.
` Q. Okay, that wasn't a patent case?
` A. No, that was a -- that was not a patent
`case.
` Q. Okay. Focussing now on your preparation
`for today's deposition, what did you do to prepare
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`23
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`for the deposition today?
` A. I reviewed the materials, I met with
`counsel, and that was it.
` Q. Okay. So when you say you reviewed the
`materials, what materials are you referring to?
` A. What was in paragraph 8, the materials I
`considered for the case.
` Q. Okay. And I assume that includes
`reviewing your declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. In both matters.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And when you say you met with counsel,
`what counsel are you referring to?
` A. John and Hallie.
` Q. Okay. And roughly how many hours did you
`spend preparing for the deposition?
` A. Three or four.
` Q. Three or four in total or three or four
`per matter?
` A. Three or four in total.
` Q. Total, okay. And did you meet with anyone
`other than counsel in preparing for your deposition?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you talk with anyone other than
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`24
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`counsel in preparing for your deposition?
` A. No.
` Q. At any time have you ever spoken with
`anyone from StratosAudio?
` A. No.
` Q. I'd like to go back to the '307
`declaration. And if you can turn to page 12 of the
`'307 declaration. Can you take a moment just to
`review paragraphs 23 through 31?
` A. Okay.
` Q. What do those paragraphs describe?
` A. They list the individual elements of the
`objective indicia of nonobviousness, so-called
`secondary considerations.
` Q. Did you write those paragraphs?
` A. No, those paragraphs were provided to me
`and I adopted them into the report.
` Q. So why did you include those paragraphs in
`your declaration?
` A. This entire section is a rather complete
`list of considerations for a -- for evaluating a
`patent and challenges to a patent, and so for
`completeness.
` Q. Did you provide an opinion as to whether
`these factors apply to the claims of the '307
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`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`25
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`patent?
` A. No.
` Q. And if you can go to the '028 declaration,
`you have a similar section in that declaration.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you write that?
` A. No.
` Q. Why did you include it?
` A. For completeness.
` Q. And did you provide an opinion as to why
`any of those factors apply or how any of those
`factors apply to the claims of the '028 patent?
` A. No.
` Q. Turning back to the '307 declaration, I
`draw your attention to paragraph 33. And what does
`paragraph 33 describe?
` A. The nexus.
` Q. And did you write that paragraph?
` A. No, I adopted it.
` Q. And again, why is that paragraph in your
`declaration?
` A. For completeness.
` Q. And there's a similar paragraph in the
`'028 declaration. I assume your answers are the
`same for the '028 declaration to those questions.
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`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`26
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` A. Yes, it's paragraph 32, and yes, my
`answers would be the same.
` Q. And in either the -- in the '307
`declaration, did you express an opinion whether a
`nexus exists between the claims and any secondary
`factors?
` A. No.
` Q. And in the '028 declaration, did you
`provide any opinion whether a nexus exists between
`the claims and the secondary factors?
` A. No.
` Q. So I'm going to hand you another document.
`This is marked Volkswagen Exhibit 1001. Do you know
`what this document is?
` A. Yes, it's the '307 patent.
` Q. And that's the patent that is the subject
`matter of this IPR, correct?
` A. Yes, 712.
` Q. I'm going to hand you another document and
`it is marked also as Volkswagen Exhibit 1001 from
`the '028 IPR proceeding. And what is this document?
` A. This is the '028 patent which I referred
`to in my declaration in response to Dr. Madisetti's
`declaration for the 716 IPR.
` Q. And are you familiar with the '307 patent?
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
`
`27
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` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. And are you familiar with the '028 patent?
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. When was the last time you reviewed the
`'307 patent?
` A. Yesterday.
` Q. And when was the last time you reviewed
`the '028 patent?
` A. Yesterday.
` Q. And how would you characterize your level
`of familiarity with these two patents?
` A. I've read both patents multiple times. I
`read them with the understanding of what one of
`plain and ordinary skill in the art -- at least
`plain and ordinary skill in the art would have
`understood them at the time frame which was in the
`year 2000. I read the specifications, the claims,
`and I understood what would have been understood by
`such a person of ordinary skill in the art.
` Q. So you would say you understand the
`patents.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Both of them.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Does a relationship exist between the '307
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`Transcript of John C. Hart, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 31, 2022
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`and the '028 patents?
` A. Yes, they share the same specification.
`The claims are aligned. The claims in the '307 are
`systems claims. The claims in the '028 are method
`claims.
` Q. Do you know what a continuation is?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you understand that the '307 patent is
`a continuation of the '028 patent?
` A. I didn't need to understand that in my
`analysis in response to Dr. Madisetti's declaration.
`Looking at the patent now, for example, at line 63
`on the front page or element 63 on the front page, I
`don't see the '028 listed in the continuations.
` Q. Yeah, so you if go to the '028 patent and
`you look at line -- I believe it's line 21 or
`element 21.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. You see the application number?
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. So that's the application that matured
`into the '028 patent, correct?
` A. Yes, apparently.
` Q. And so if you now draw your attention back
`to the '307 patent and element 63.
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`29
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` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you see that the '307 patent is a
`continuation of the 176 application that matured
`into the '028 patent?
` A. I see that.
` Q. Okay. So we can agree that the '307
`patent is a continuation of the '028 patent.
` A. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't
`know if the application is equivalent to the patent
`in these matters, but I understand from what you
`described there that the '307 is a continuation of
`the application of the '028.
` Q. Okay, and you said you did not need to
`consider that or be aware of that in providing your
`opinion. Why is that?
` A. I don't recall that Dr. Madisetti cited
`that fact in his arguments on anticipation and
`obviousness of either the '028 or the '307.
` Q. Okay. Now, can you go back to the '307
`patent. You see item 72. What does it list?
` A. The inventors.
` Q. Have you -- prior to this engagement, had
`you heard of any of those inventors?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever met any of those inventors?
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` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever spoken to any of those
`inventors?
` A. I don't recall ever meeting or speaking
`with any of these inventors.
` Q. Item -- now turning your attention t
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