UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`APPLE INC., )
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` )
`
` Petitioner, ) Case IPR2021-00305
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` ) Patent 10,506,325
`
`vs. )
`
` ) Case IPR2021-00381
`
`KOSS CORPORATION, ) Patent 10,491,982
`
` )
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
` The Zoom deposition of JOSEPH McALEXANDER,
`
` III, taken before Richard Derrick Ehrlich,
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` Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime
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` Reporter, taken pursuant to the United States Patent
`
` and Trademark Office Rules, commencing at 9:00 a.m.,
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` on the 2nd day of February, 2022.
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`APPLE 1029
`Apple v. Koss
`IPR2021-00600
`
`1
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`
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`APPLE INC., )
`
` )
`
` Petitioner, ) Case IPR2021-00305
`
` ) Patent 10,506,325
`
`vs. )
`
` ) Case IPR2021-00381
`
`KOSS CORPORATION, ) Patent 10,491,982
`
` )
`
` Patent Owner. )
`
` The Zoom deposition of JOSEPH McALEXANDER,
`
` III, taken before Richard Derrick Ehrlich,
`
` Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime
`
` Reporter, taken pursuant to the United States Patent
`
` and Trademark Office Rules, commencing at 9:00 a.m.,
`
` on the 2nd day of February, 2022.
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`APPLE 1029
`Apple v. Koss
`IPR2021-00600
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`1
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`Page 2
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`On behalf of Apple Inc.:
` Doug Winnard
` Jennifer Hartjes
` GOLDMAN ISMAIL TOMASELLI BRENNAN & BAUM LLP
` 200 South Wacker Drive
` 22nd Floor
` Chicago, IL 60606
` dwinnard@goldmanismail.com
` jhartjes@goldmanismail.com
`
` Ryan Chowdhury
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` 1000 Main Avenue, SW
` Suite 1000
` Washington, D.C. 20024
` rchowdhury@fr.com
`
`On behalf of Koss Corporation:
`
` Mark G. Knedeisen
` Lauren Murray
` K&L GATES LLP
` 210 Sixth Avenue
` Pittsburgh, PA 15222-2613
` mark.knedeisen@klgates.com
` lauren.murray@klgates.com
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` I N D E X
` Page
`Exam by Doug Winnard 5
`Exam by Mark Knedeisen 209
`Exam by Doug Winnard 211
`Exam by Jenny Hartjes 217
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` E X H I B I T S
` Page
`
`Exhibit No. 1 - 14
`Declaration of Joseph C. McAlexander III,
`November 17, 2021
`
`Exhibit No. 2 - 39
`Patent No. 10,469,934 B2
`Exhibit No. 3 - 45
`Patent No. 8,401,219 B2
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`Exhibit No. 4 - 71
`Patent No. 2008/0076489 A1
`Exhibit No. 5 - 127
`Patent No. 2006/0166716 A1
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`Exhibit No. 6 - 138
`Patent No. 7,881,745 B1
`Exhibit No. 7 - 147
`Patent No. 7,551,940 B2
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`Exhibit No. 8 - 170
`Patent Owner Response
`Exhibit No. 9 - 174
`Wireless Headphones and Data Transmission Method
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`Exhibit No. 10 - 198
`Plaintiff Koss Corporation's Preliminary
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` E X H I B I T S (Continued)
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`Exhibit No. 11 - 219
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`Declaration of Joseph C. McAlexander III,
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`November 24, 2021
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`Exhibit No. 12 - 220
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`Patent No. 2007/0033197 A1
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`Exhibit No. 13 - 245
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`Patent No. 2011/0289229 A1
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`Exhibit No. 14 - 252
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`Petition for Inter Partes Review of United
`
`States Patent No. 10,298,451 Pursuant to 35
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`U.S.C. §§311-319, 37 CFR §42
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` JOSEPH McALEXANDER, DEPONENT, SWORN
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` EXAMINATION
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`BY MR. WINNARD:
`
`Q Hi, Mr. McAlexander. I'm Doug Winnard. I'm an
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` attorney for Apple.
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` You understand you're here today in
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` connection with IPR proceedings between Apple
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` and Koss Corporation, correct?
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`A Yes, that's correct.
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`Q You understand that those IPR proceedings for
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` today's deposition are IPR2021-00592 and
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` IPR2021-00600.
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` Do you have that understanding, sir?
`
`A I do, yes.
`
`Q Starting with the first of those, IPR2021-592,
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` you understand that IPR relates to
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` U.S. Patent 10,469,934, right?
`
`A Yes, that's correct. I have that understanding.
`
`Q If I refer to that -- the patent as the '934
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` patent, you'll understand that that's the patent
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` I'm referring to?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q Mr. McAlexander, you submitted a report in
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` connection with the 592 IPR, right?
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`A That is correct.
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`Q Do you have a copy of that report in front of
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` you?
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`A I do.
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`Q Do you have any other papers in front of you?
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`A I have for -- with regard to the 592 case, I
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` have -- I printed off a copy of the declaration,
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` my declaration, I printed off a copy of the '934
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` patent, and I also printed off copies of Apple's
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` Exhibit 1004. I have also a copy of Apple 1005,
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` 1007, 1008, 1009, 1010, and 1011.
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`Q Do any of the documents that you've just
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` described have handwritten notes from you on
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` them?
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`A No, sir. No notes.
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`Q There's no annotations of any kind that you've
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` added to them?
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`A No, sir.
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`Q If you go ahead and look at the Exhibit Share
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` platform, there should be an Exhibit 1 already
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` available.
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`A Yes, I have it up.
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`Q Do you see that?
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`A Yes.
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`Q You can take a minute to look at it, but my
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` question is just to confirm that Exhibit 1 is
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` the declaration you provided in connection with
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` IPR on the '934 patent.
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`A Yes, that is correct.
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`Q Does Exhibit 1 contain all of the opinions that
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` you intend to express in the IPR proceeding
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` regarding the '934 patent?
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`A As to the time of the writing of that particular
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` document, yes.
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`Q Is that also true as of today?
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`A I do not know what questions or what testimony
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` will be granted as of today, so certainly the
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` record before the IPR would include whatever
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` takes place during the deposition today.
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`Q I understand that. I just mean separate from
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` any questions I may ask you, do you have any
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` intent to supplement the opinions that you
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` provided in Exhibit 1?
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`A Not as of this time, no.
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`Q At the end of your report, you declare that all
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` statements you made were true to the best of
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` your knowledge; is that correct?
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`A Yes, that's correct.
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`Q Before we begin, are there any corrections or
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` changes that you would like to make to
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` Exhibit 1?
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`A In reading through the deposition -- I mean the
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` transcript, the declaration, and preparing for
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` the deposition, I did not uncover anything that
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` I would want to change.
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`Q Okay. Just for the record, can you state your
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` full name for me?
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`A Joseph Colby McAlexander, III.
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`Q And a few moments ago, you were sworn in by the
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` court reporter, right?
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`A Yes, that's correct.
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`Q You understand that you are under oath today as
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` if you were testifying in a courtroom?
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`A Yes.
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`Q Is there any reason you would be unable to give
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` accurate, complete, and truthful testimony
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` today?
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`A No.
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`Q You're not on any medication that might make it
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` hard for you to hear or understand my questions?
`
`A Say that again.
`
` No.
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`Q If I ask a question and you answer it, I'll
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` assume that you understood it; is that fair?
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`A That is fair, yes.
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`Q If you don't understand the question or you need
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` me to repeat it, just let me know. Okay?
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`A I certainly will.
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`Q And, Mr. McAlexander, I understand you've
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` probably been through depositions before; is
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` that right?
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`A Yes.
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`Q About how many depositions have you testified
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` at?
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`A About 185.
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`Q Give or take two or three maybe?
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`A Give or take two or three. That might be
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` dependent upon next week, too, so ...
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`Q Okay. So you know the ground rules pretty well.
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` The only one I'll reiterate is if you need a
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` break at any time, just let me know. I just ask
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` that if there's a question pending, we answer
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` the question first and then take the break.
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`A That's fair.
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`Q You and I are speaking over Zoom. Beside the
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` Zoom window and the Exhibit Share platform, do
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` you have any other programs currently running on
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` your computer?
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`A I have Internet Explorer running. And when I
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` say IE, I'm talking about the little local IE,
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` so the -- for files. If -- for instance,
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` typically in these proceedings, I'm permitted to
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` download, so I have that open so if I download a
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` file, so I can view it locally. I have that
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` open.
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` I currently have Outlook open because I use
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` that to launch the website to start the Zoom
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` proceeding.
`
`Q Okay. Would you be --
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`A All of those are minimized. I'm not looking at
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` any of them. The only thing in front of me is
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` the -- is the Zoom and the exhibit.
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`Q All right. Now that you've now launched your
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` browser, would you be able to close Outlook so
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` that you don't receive email notifications?
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`A Sure.
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`Q I appreciate that.
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`A All right. It is closed.
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`Q Thank you, sir.
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` Do you have your cell phone with you in the
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` room?
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`A I do, but it's muted.
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`Q Okay. If at any point -- can I ask you that you
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` take that cell phone out of the room until
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` there's a break? Is that fair?
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`A Well, I have medical issues with my wife. So
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` even though she's in a different part of the
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` house, I want to keep the phone available, and
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` like I said, it's on silent. I will not be
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` using it for any other purpose.
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`Q You'll swear to that on the record today?
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`A That's what I stated, yes.
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`Q Thank you. I appreciate that.
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` You testified, I think, you've been deposed
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` about 185 times; is that right?
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`A Correct.
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`Q In how many of those 185 depositions did the
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` technology relate to headphones in particular?
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`A Probably maybe 10 or 12.
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`Q And of those 10 or 12, how many relate to your
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` work for Koss Corporation?
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`A I don't remember exactly how many I've had with
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` this, but five to seven perhaps.
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`Q Other than your work for Koss, what other
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` matters did you testify at deposition related to
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` headphones?
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`A One-E-Way.
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`Q Any others?
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`A That's the only other ones that I can recall
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` directly associating with headphones
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` specifically.
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`Q Did the technology in One-E-Way relate to
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` wireless earphones?
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`A It did.
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`Q Did the technology in One-E-Way relate to
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` wireless earbuds?
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`A It includes that, yes. Can.
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`Q And I use the term "earphone" and "earbud." Do
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` you have a distinction in your mind as to what
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` the difference is between those two?
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`A Well, you're the one using the terms. So I'm
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` not sure where you are coming from, but if you
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` want to characterize them in terms of that which
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` fits in the ear versus super- or circumaural,
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` then I would characterize them different that
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` way.
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`Q Was that the understanding you had when you
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` answered my questions?
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`A Well, I gave you an answer based upon that
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` understanding. If we look at headphone,
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` typically that will be something where there's a
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` connection between the two earpieces, whether
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` that is through a headband or a wire, something
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` of that nature.
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` So there's a difference between whether
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` they're connected together or whether they are
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` separate.
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`Q I understand. I'm sure we'll discuss that in
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` more detail later today.
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` When were you first contacted about the
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` '934 patent?
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`A I don't recall exactly. It was subsequent to
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` the institution of the '934. I don't have that
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` date in front of me.
`
`Q Who contacted you?
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`A Mark Knedeisen.
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`Q And what services were you asked to perform in
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` connection with the '934 patent IPR?
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`A Initially it's just familiarization with the
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` patent itself.
`
`Q And you prepared the declaration or report
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` that's in Exhibit -- that's Exhibit 1 in
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`Page 14
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` connection with the '934 patent, right?
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`A Yes, that's correct.
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` (Exhibit No. 1 marked.)
`
`BY MR. WINNARD:
`
`Q How did you prepare that report?
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`A How did I prepare the report?
`
`Q Yes.
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`A I reviewed the patent in particular,
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` specifically. I also identified on page 4 of my
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` report the declaration of the various materials
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` that I reviewed.
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` So part of the preparation is reviewing of
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` the materials associated with the -- with this
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` particular patent and then begin the construct
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` or the drafting of the report, and I did that
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` jointly with counsel.
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`Q Did you write your report yourself?
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`A I wrote -- I wrote parts of it with counsel. I
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` edited all of it and own all of it.
`
`Q Which portions did you write yourself?
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`A Well, I contributed to the writing throughout
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` the patent. I don't know that I could specify a
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` particular section that I wrote. I do know that
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` the entire background of the technology and the
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`Page 15
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` invention, my background and qualifications, I
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` provided all of that.
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` I would say the majority of it is in
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` combination with counsel as far as the scrivener
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` part. I participated considerably in the
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` content portion. Most of that was done based
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` upon verbal conference calls, so that
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` memorialized the results of the conference
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` calls, and then that was then provided in the
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` document itself.
`
`Q Did you memorialize the content of the
`
` conference calls or did counsel do that?
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` MR. KNEIDEISEN: Objection. Form.
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` THE WITNESS: I'm trying to see how to
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` answer that because I know drafts are not
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` discoverable.
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` I mean, I certainly participated in
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` identifying and specifically providing to myself
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` information that was communicated during that
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` conference call. I'm sure counsel did, too.
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` And from that, the report was generated.
`
`BY MR. WINNARD:
`
`Q You referred to page 4 of your report in terms
`
` of materials that you looked at. Do you recall
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` that?
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`A Yes.
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`Q Does page 4 list all of the materials that you
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` reviewed in connection with the preparation of
`
` the declaration that is Exhibit 1?
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`A It contains, as I recall, the material I
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` reviewed that I relied on for the opinions I
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` made in the report.
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` I also indicated that it includes anything
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` else that might be mentioned such as HT -- HTTPS
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` sites, that might be throughout the document
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` that may not be listed there, but it's either in
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` the Materials Reviewed on page 4 or as
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` identified throughout other places in the
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` report.
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` Now, there's other materials that I did
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` look at. For instance, I did a number of
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` reviews on websites just looking at different
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` documentation that's available there. I also,
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` in the past, have looked at the file history
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` associated with the patent.
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` But what I put here is, I believe, the
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` materials that I reviewed that I relied upon for
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` the purposes of my opinion in this report.
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`Q Which websites did you review as part of the
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` work you did to prepare this report other than
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` the ones cited specifically in the report?
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`A Well, I looked at the Apple website just looking
`
` at some of the information with regard to the
`
` AirPods. I looked at the Koss website. I would
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` say those are the primary ones.
`
`Q What information were you looking for on the
`
` Apple website?
`
`A I was generally just looking at information
`
` related to AirPod products.
`
`Q What information?
`
`A What's reviewed or revealed on the website with
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` the AirPod in terms of the product and some of
`
` the specifications and features of the AirPods.
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` And that, again, was just general information.
`
` It was nothing I needed to or relied upon for
`
` the report.
`
`Q None of the opinions you expressed in Exhibit 1
`
` are based on your review of Apple's website; is
`
` that right?
`
`A Nothing other than what I have identified in the
`
` report as what I relied on. Anything beyond
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` that I did not rely on.
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`Q You also mentioned reviewing Koss's website?
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`A I did.
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`Q What information were you looking for on Koss's
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` website?
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`A That generally was done many months prior to
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` this. So it wasn't necessarily in context -- in
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` the context of preparation of the '934. So it
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` was not relevant.
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`Q None of the information you may have seen on
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` Koss's website was relevant to any of the
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` opinions you've expressed in Exhibit 1; is that
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` right?
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`A It's not -- it may have been relevant, but it
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` wasn't what I relied upon.
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`Q What information was relevant to your opinions
`
` expressed in Exhibit 1 that you saw on Koss's
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` website?
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` MR. KNEIDEISEN: Objection. Form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Well, again, they have
`
` products that involve headphones, ear pod,
`
` earbuds. So generally information available
`
` that they provide that links to some of these
`
` types of products. But, again, it's just
`
` general information. It's nothing that I relied
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` on for the purpose of this declaration.
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`BY MR. WINNARD:
`
`Q Your declaration that's marked as Exhibit 1 does
`
` not list the file history of the '934 patent as
`
` one of the materials you reviewed, right?
`
`A That is correct. And I stated that earlier.
`
`Q Did you review any other file histories in the
`
` same family as the '934 patent as part of your
`
` work preparing Exhibit 1?
`
`A Not as I recall as a part of preparing my work
`
` for Exhibit 1. I certainly reviewed the file
`
` histories of each one of the patents that's
`
` associated with various IPRs.
`
`Q And sticking to page 4 of Exhibit 1, in
`
` paragraph 12, you state towards the end of the
`
` paragraph, Furthermore, I reviewed Koss's
`
` response filed herewith and the exhibits cited
`
` by it, and I agree with its analysis and
`
` conclusions regarding the non-obviousness of the
`
` '934 patent.
`
` Do you see that?
`
`A Yes, I do.
`
`Q Is it your testimony that you agree with all of
`
` the statements contained in Koss's response to
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` the IPR filed on the '934 patent?
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`A I stated that I read the response that was
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` filed, the exhibits cited, agreeing with its
`
` analysis and conclusions regarding the
`
` non-obviousness for the '934. To that extent,
`
` yes.
`
`Q Aside from the documents identified in
`
` paragraph 12 of your report or cited somewhere
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` else in the report, did you review any other
`
` materials to understand the state of the art at
`
` the time the '934 patent was filed?
`
`A In connection with the '934 for purposes of this
`
` declaration, no.
`
`Q You did not review any treatises to get a better
`
` understanding of the state of the art at the
`
` time the '934 patent was filed, right?
`
`A Well, just so that we are clear, are you talking
`
` about the date the patent was filed or its
`
` priority date, which is many years before that?
`
`Q I'm talking about the effective filing date, the
`
` date that you used in the 2008, 2009 time frame.
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`A Okay. The effective. All right. Thank you
`
` very much for the clarification.
`
`Q And throughout if I say "filing date" and don't
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` say "effective filing date," I'm still referring
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` to that 2008, 2009 time frame. Is that fair?
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`A Yeah, that's fair. I just want to make sure it
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` was clear, and thank you for that.
`
` You know, other than looking at
`
` Dr. Cooperstock's declaration, his transcript
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` and documents associated that he relied upon,
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` I've listed in Materials Considered -- I mean
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` Materials Reviewed, Section 2, as well as other
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` sites within the document, that's what I relied
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` upon.
`
`Q And none of that material includes treatises
`
` regarding the state of art -- the art in 2008,
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` 2009 time frame, right?
`
` MR. KNEIDEISEN: Objection. Form.
`
` THE DEPONENT: Treatises meaning articles
`
` or peer-reviewed papers or that type of thing,
`
` the answer is I don't believe so.
`
` Obviously, the patents that -- the patent
`
` itself gives an understanding of the time of the
`
` invention as well as some of the prior art
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` that's been produced in this matter gives
`
` indications as to what was practiced or
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` available at that time.
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`BY MR. WINNARD:
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`Q You don't cite anywhere in your report any
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` academic publications regarding the state of the
`
` art relevant to the '934 patent as of the 2008,
`
` 2009 time frame, right?
`
`A Correct.
`
`Q Are you being compensated in connection with
`
` your work in these proceedings?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q Is that compensation at your standard consulting
`
` rate?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q What is that rate?
`
`A 575 an hour.
`
`Q How many hours have you spent -- did you spend
`
` preparing Exhibit 1?
`
`A I would estimate 15 to 20 -- 20 hours probably.
`
`Q If you turn back to Exhibit 1. And I'll take
`
` you up to page 3 of 87. I believe it's the
`
` first substantive page of the report.
`
` Do you see that?
`
`A Page 3?
`
`Q I think there's a couple different numbering.
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` So I'm going to refer to the bottom left where
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`Page 23
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` there's page 3 of 87.
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`A Thank you. All right. I'm there.
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`Q And there's a Section 1, Background and
`
` Qualifications.
`
` Do you see that?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q And you set out your Background and
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` Qualifications in paragraphs 3 through 10 of
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` your report, right?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q Paragraphs 3 through 10 of your report don't
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` refer to any experience specific to the design
`
` of headphones, right?
`
`A Not specifically to the design of headphones,
`
` no.
`
`Q If you had experience specific to the design of
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` headphones, you would have listed it, right?
`
`A Well, I had experience in -- and I listed a
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` number of areas that are pertinent to the design
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` of headphones but not the actual design of
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` headphones.
`
`Q Right. So my question is specific to the design
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` of headphones. You did not list any experience
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` specific to the design of headphones in your
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`Page 24
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` report, right?
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`A Well, again, I want to make sure we're clear on
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` that. A number of these different experiences
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` that I provided in terms of design go directly
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` to what would go into a headphone or an earbud.
`
` So they are relevant to that, but if you're
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` talking about the actual design of a headphone,
`
` no.
`
`Q Have you ever designed a headphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever designed a wireless earphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever designed a wireless earbud?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever built a headphone?
`
`A Yes.
`
`Q When did you build that headphone?
`
`A That was a number of years ago as a part of one
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` of the installations that I did at a particular
`
` company.
`
`Q What company was that?
`
`A It was a church and designing the entire
`
` acoustic and video and microphone system. And
`
` then we provided, as a part of that, an ear -- a
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`Page 25
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` mechanism that's a tailored mechanism that they
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` could use to listen to it using ear -- an in-ear
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` mechanism, but it was wired. It was not
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` wireless.
`
`Q Have you ever built a wireless headphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever built a wireless earphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever built a wireless earbud?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever supervised the design of a
`
` wireless earphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever supervised the design of a
`
` wireless earbud?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever supervised others in building a
`
` wireless earphone?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Have you ever supervised others in the
`
` construction of a wireless earbud?
`
`A No.
`
`Q Do you have any experience specific to the
`
` design of wireless earbuds that receive
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`Page 26
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` independent data streams?
`
`A Say that again, please.
`
`Q Do you have any experience specific to the
`
` design of wireless earbuds that receive
`
` independent data streams?
`
`A No.
`
`Q If the person of ordinary skill in the art were
`
` defined to require experience designing wireless
`
` earphones, you would not meet that definition,
`
` right?
`
`A I would have expertise that goes beyond what
`
` is -- what that requires. If it's specific to
`
` the design of an earphone or an earbud, then,
`
` you know, we've already gone through that and
`
` I've already testified to my experience with
`
` that.
`
` But I have experience in terms of the
`
` design of the components that go in and be used
`
` for wireless as well as the makeup of a
`
` transceiver and all -- and the makeup of
`
` processing and firmware. I've got experience in
`
` all of that, many years of experience, far more
`
` than a person -- that an ordinary person of
`
` skill in the art would have.
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`Page 27
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`Q Just to make the record clear, if the level of
`
` skill in the art required experience specific to
`
` the design of wireless earphones, you would not
`
` have that experience, right?
`
` MR. KNEIDEISEN: Objection.
`
` THE DEPONENT: I believe I've answered that
`
` question. The experience that I have had in the
`
` design of many of the components that would be
`
` used in earphones does go specifically to that.
`
` If the requirement is the person has to
`
` have designed an earphone, then the answer is I
`
` do not -- I would not meet that criteria.
`
`BY MR. WINNARD:
`
`Q Okay. We can turn to -- back to Exhibit 1. And
`
` I'll direct you to -- it's page 9 of 87.
`
` And let me know when you're there.
`
`A Okay.
`
`Q In paragraph 17, you're describing certain
`
` disclosures in the '934 patent; fair?
`
`A Fair.
`
`Q And in particular, you're talking -- you refer
`
` to disclosures of the '934 patent about a system
`
` on chip, or SoC.
`
` Do you see that?
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`Page 28
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`A Yes.
`
`Q You agree that the '934 patent did not invent
`
` the system on chip or SoC, right?
`
`A It described it in how it can be instantiated
`
` within the construct of the '934 invention, but
`
` it did not invent the SoC.
`
`Q SoCs were well known in the art as of 2008,
`
` right?
`
`A As of 2008, they were known, yes.
`
`Q SoCs had existed for decades before 2008, right?
`
`A In rudimentary form.
`
`Q Do you recall when SoCs were first introduced?
`
`A Well, again, it depends on how -- to the extent
`
` of what you're talking about. There have been
`
` integration of various components that used to
`
` be discrete and then put into a common
`
` integrated circuit since the 1970s, but in terms
`
` of coming up to where it's really a system on a
`
` chip, that is a term that really matured in the
`
` '90s and then began really finding a home in the
`
` 2000s.
`
`Q When you say "finding a home," you mean that
`
` they were commonly used in the 2000s, right?
`
`A No, not necessarily commonly used, but it was --
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`Page 29
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` it's something that the state of the art allowed
`
` components of typically different aspects such
`
` as microprocessor and baseband processing to be
`
` put on the same chip or to have multiple -- to
`
` have non-volatile memory, DRAM memory, and
`
` process and DSP all on the same chip. That's
`
` something that did not mature until the 2000s,
`
` but it started back in the '90s.
`
`Q SoCs were used in mobile devices as of the
`
` 2000s, right?
`
`A In some form, yes.
`
`Q What devices or types of devices used SoCs as of
`
` the 2000s?
`
`A I can't define the exact time. Certainly by
`
` 2010, SoCs were becoming used within cellular --
`
` small cellular phone technology. I don't know
`
` the precise time at which that happened but in
`
` the -- certainly prior to 2010.
`
`Q Prior to 2005?
`
`A I can't precisely say that.
`
`Q Did you do any research to determine when SoCs
`
` were being used in mobile devices as of 2008?
`
` MR. KNEIDEISEN: Objection. Form.
`
` THE DEPONENT: Well, they are identified in
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`www.veritext.com
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`888-391-3376
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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` the '934 patent as of 2009. So the occurrence
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`Page 30
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` is before that.
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`BY MR. WINNARD:
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`Q My question was a little different. My question
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` is whether you did any research to determine
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` whether SoCs were used in mobile devices as of
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` 2008.
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`A I have knowledge of that from other work and
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` ot
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