UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`) Case No.
` TCT MOBILE (US), INC.; TCT
`) IPR2021-00599
` MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS, INC.;
`) Patent No. 7,834,586
` HUIZHOU TCL MOBILE
` COMMUNICATION CO. LTD.; AND TCL )
` COMMUNICATION, INC.,
`
`) )
`
`Petitioner, )
`)
` vs. )
`)
` FUNDAMENTAL INNOVATION SYSTEMS )
` INTERNATIONAL LLC, )
`)
`Patent Owner. )
`)
` __________________________________)
`
` VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF RUSSEL JACOB BAKER, PH.D.
`Testifying from Las Vegas, Nevada
`Tuesday, November 23, 2021
`Volume I
`
` Reported by:
` HANNA KIM, CSR No. 13083
` PAGES 5 - 8
` ROCHELLE HOLMES, CSR No. 9482
` PAGES 9 - 171
`
` Job No. 4858579
` PAGES 1 - 174
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`Page 1
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`Fundamental Ex 2024
`TCT et al v Fundamental
`IPR2021-00599
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`) Case No.
` TCT MOBILE (US), INC.; TCT
`) IPR2021-00599
` MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS, INC.;
`) Patent No. 7,834,586
` HUIZHOU TCL MOBILE
` COMMUNICATION CO. LTD.; AND TCL )
` COMMUNICATION, INC.,
`
`) )
`
`Petitioner, )
`)
` vs. )
`)
` FUNDAMENTAL INNOVATION SYSTEMS )
` INTERNATIONAL LLC, )
`)
`Patent Owner. )
`)
` __________________________________)
`
` VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF RUSSEL JACOB BAKER, PH.D.
`Testifying from Las Vegas, Nevada
`Tuesday, November 23, 2021
`Volume I
`
` Reported by:
` HANNA KIM, CSR No. 13083
` PAGES 5 - 8
` ROCHELLE HOLMES, CSR No. 9482
` PAGES 9 - 171
`
` Job No. 4858579
` PAGES 1 - 174
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`Fundamental Ex 2024
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`IPR2021-00599
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`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` TCT MOBILE (US), INC.; TCT
`
`) Case No.
`
` MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS, INC.;
`
`) IPR2021-00599
`
` HUIZHOU TCL MOBILE
`
`)
`
` COMMUNICATION CO. LTD.; AND TCL )
`
`) )
`
` COMMUNICATION, INC.,
`
`Petitioner, )
`
`)
`
` vs. )
`
` FUNDAMENTAL INNOVATION SYSTEMS )
`
` INTERNATIONAL LLC, )
`
`)
`
`Patent Owner. )
`
`)
`
`)
`
` __________________________________)
`
`Deposition of RUSSEL JACOB BAKER, PH.D., testifying
`
` remotely from Las Vegas, Nevada, taken on behalf of
`
` Patent Owner via videoconference, beginning at 9:35 a.m.
`
` and ending at 6:30 p.m. on Tuesday, November 23, 2021,
`
` before HANNA KIM, CSR No. 13083, (Pages 5 - 8), and
`
` ROCHELLE HOLMES, CSR No. 9482, (Pages 9 - 171).
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` A P P E A R A N C E S :
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` F o r P e t i t i o n e r :
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` O R R I C K H E R R I N G T O N & S U T C L I F F E
`
` B Y : J A S O N L A N G , A T T O R N E Y
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` 1 0 0 0 M a r s h R o a d
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` M e n l o P a r k , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 0 2 5
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` J l a n g @ o r r i c k . c o m
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` ( A p p e a r i n g v i a v i d e o c o n f e r e n c e . )
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` F o r P a t e n t O w n e r :
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` I R E L L & M E N E L L S L L P
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` B Y : H . A N N I T A Z H O N G , A T T O R N E Y
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` 1 8 0 0 A v e n u e o f t h e S t a r s , S u i t e 9 0 0
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` L o s A n g e l e s , C a l i f o r n i a 9 0 0 6 4
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` ( 3 1 0 ) 2 7 7 - 1 0 1 0
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` H z h o n g @ i r e l l . c o m
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` ( A p p e a r i n g v i a v i d e o c o n f e r e n c e . )
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` INDEX
`
` WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`
` RUSSEL JACOB BAKER, PH.D.
`
` Volume I
`
` MS. ZHONG 5
`
` MR. LANG 164
`
` MS. ZHONG 169
`
` EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
`
` (NOT ATTACHED)
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
` Exhibit 2005 US Patent 6904488, Matsumoto 25
`
` Exhibit 2014 Universal Serial Bus 58
`
` Specification
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` Remotely Testifying from Las Vegas, Nevada
`
` Tuesday, November 23, 2021; 9:35 a.m., PST
`
` --o0o--
`
` RUSSEL JACOB BAKER, PH.D.,
`
`having been administered an oath over videoconference,
`
` was examined
`
` and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MS. ZHONG:
`
` Q Sir, can you please state your name for the
`
` record.
`
` A Russel, with one "L," Jacob Baker.
`
` Q Do you have any documents or notes with you?
`
` A No; just what's on my laptop.
`
` Q Aside from the window for Exhibit Share, do
`
` you have any other window or documents open on your
`
` laptop?
`
` A No.
`
` Q How many times have you been deposed before
`
` this one?
`
` A This is my 74th time.
`
` Q So you've been deposed about 30, 35 times in
`
` the last four or five years?
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` A I don't know. I've been doing expert work
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` for about a dozen years. So the 74 times would be
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` over about 12, maybe 13 years at this point.
`
` Q So in the last four to five years, how many
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` depositions have you -- strike it.
`
` Let me ask you, how many times have you been
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` deposed in the last four and five [verbatim] years?
`
` A I can look at my CV and get a count and try
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` to guess, but I -- I'd guess 30 to 40, maybe.
`
` Q Okay. And in what technology area have you
`
` served as an expert in?
`
` A Electrical and computer engineering.
`
` Q Which sub-areas of electrical and computer
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` engineering in particular?
`
` A Circuit design, computer design, integrated
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` circuit design and technology, power supply design,
`
` switching power supply design.
`
` Basically in the areas that I teach and do
`
` research in.
`
` Q Okay. So in what area do you teach and
`
` research in?
`
` A The areas I just mentioned.
`
` Q Are those all the areas that you teach and
`
` research in?
`
` A I teach power electronics. I teach
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` circuits. I teach computer engineering, like logic
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` design. I teach memory circuit design. I teach mixed
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` signal circuit design, analog design, digital chip
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` design, microelectronics. I've taught fiberoptics,
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` semiconductors.
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` I think in the last -- since I've been
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` teaching 31 years, I think that covers all the areas
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` that I've taught in.
`
` Q Okay. Have you taught design of USB
`
` controller?
`
` A I've taught the circuit design related to
`
` the design of USB controllers, but I have not taught
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` or given a course project in the design of a USB
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` controller, just what would be used to design one.
`
` Q What do you mean by you just taught what
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` would be used to design a USB controller?
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` A So, for example, in a USB system, with a
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` controller, there would be many, many components.
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` For example, there would be a power supply
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` that would supply power on the B-bus line of the USB
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` connector. So I taught -- in fact, I have a -- a
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` course project this semester. I've taught how to
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` design power supplies, and a power supply would be
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` used in a -- a USB controller.
`
` Q Have you taught -- let me withdraw.
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` And ask, have you taught circuits that are
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` specific for USB controlling [verbatim]?
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` MR. LANG: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know specifically what
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` you're talking about. But, I mean, I've also worked
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` in industry designing USB circuits.
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` But, I mean, one example I gave was a power
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` supply design that could be used in a USB circuit
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` to supply the --
`
` (Interruption in audio/video.)
`
` THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. "Could be
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` used in a USB circuit to"?
`
` THE WITNESS: -- provide the power --
`
` MR. LANG: Let me -- let me -- let me just
`
` stop there. I -- I don't think that we're going to be
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` able to do this deposition.
`
` I do apologize, but with cutting off the
`
` witness in the middle of his answer, that's disruptive
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` and -- and loses the train of thought.
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` So I -- I just -- we can't do that. I think
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` we do have a -- the audio recording, I understand;
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` correct.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Do you want to go off
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` the record, Counsel?
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` MS. ZHONG: Sure.
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` (Off the record, 9:44 a.m.)
`
` (Whereupon Rochelle Holmes, CSR, replaced
`
` Hanna Kim, CSR, for the remainder of the
`
` proceeding.)
`
` EXAMINATION (CONTINUED)
`
` BY MS. ZHONG:
`
` Q Dr. Baker, have you ever designed any
`
` circuit that is directly responsible for USB
`
` communication?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm not entirely sure what
`
` specifically you're talking about, but I think in
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` general I can answer yes to that.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: What circuit did you design
`
` that is directly responsible for USB communication?
`
` A For example, a driver circuit.
`
` Q And that driver circuit has USB controlling
`
` function?
`
` A I don't know what the context of your
`
` question is, but in general, yes, in USB there are two
`
` data lines labeled D+ and D- and they are driven with
`
` a CMOS drivers, C-M-O-S. And I designed all kinds of
`
` -- in that example all kinds of driver circuits that
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` could be used with USB communications. And I don't
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` know specifically what you're asking.
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` Q So do you know whether the driver is used
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` for USB communication or you just think the circuit
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` can be used for driving USB communication?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know the context or
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` what specifically you're asking, but in USB there is a
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` driver circuit that drives the D+ and D- data lines.
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` There's also a receiver circuit that receives
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` transmission on the D+ and D- data lines.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: And was your design specific
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` for that USB driver?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't know the context of
`
` your question or what specifically you're asking, but
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` I think I can answer yes, I have designed all kinds of
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` CMOS circuit.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: I'm asking a specific
`
` question whether you know that that driver was used in
`
` a USB product?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: When you say "that driver,"
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` for example, I designed USB circuits back in the '90s,
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` so are you talking -- can you give me something
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` specific, because I don't really know what you're
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` specifically talking about?
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Well, you said you designed
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` some kind of driver and I'm asking you whether you
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` know that driver circuit is used for driving USB
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` communication?
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` Let me re-ask. You said you designed some
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` kind of driver and I'm asking you whether you know
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` that the driver circuit was used in some USB products
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` for USB communication?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Or simply that a driver can
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` be used in the USB product, but you don't know whether
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` it's used or not?
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` A Well, for example, I designed USB circuits
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` back in the '90s. I don't remember specifically which
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` specific products, if that's the next question, they
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` were put in. It's been a long time. I designed all
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` kinds of consumer drivers that have made it into
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` products and when you talk about drivers there is
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` generally a cell in the design database that is a
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` driver cell that can be used in specific application
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` once it's designed, but I can't give you part numbers
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` on things that I've designed that the driver has ended
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` up in.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: So would the cells that you
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` designed have direct responsibility for USB
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` communication?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: And would the cells you
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` designed have direct responsibility for USB charging
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` -- let me withdraw.
`
` Were would the cells you designed have
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` direct responsibility for battery charging over USB?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Maybe. I designed certain
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` things and they used them for various aspects, like
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` one would be a power detection circuit that would
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` detect when a voltage goes below a certain level and
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` they could use that for all kinds of different things
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` within USB or other circuits.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Do you know what were the
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` cells used for exactly or are you just speculating
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` they could be used in different applications?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know
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` specifically what we're talking about. I don't know
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` the context. I'm giving you an example of work I did
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` for Tower Semiconductor back in the '90s. I designed
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` some USB circuits, some drivers, some power-on reset
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` circuits and they told me they would be used in USB, I
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` can't tell you if they were telling the truth or if
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` they ultimately ended up in USB in that specific
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` example. I just don't know.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Besides the Tower -- is it
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` Tower Semiconductor that you mentioned?
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` A Tower.
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` Q Besides the Tower Semiconductor product that
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` you mentioned, any other USB circuit that you
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` designed?
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` A When you design drivers and you design band
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` gaps, other circuits, they go into library to make
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` products. So once I've designed things I don't really
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` keep track of where the designs end up. I mean, I
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` could get online and search my patents for USB and see
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` how many of them have USB mentioned in them, I'm sure
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` there is quite a few, but I don't specifically list
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` part numbers.
`
` Q And those works were done in the 1990s?
`
` A Are we going back to the Tower Semiconductor
`
` consulting I did or just in general?
`
` Q Just in general, USB-specific design.
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` A First time I worked on USB design was in the
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` '90s, memory serves, like '96 timeframe.
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` Q That was before USB 1.1 specification was
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` put out; correct?
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` A Right at the beginning when USB was being
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` developed, yes.
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` Q And so for the USB circuit that you designed
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` then were the drivers; is that correct?
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` A I didn't design drivers, but I designed a
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` bunch of other stuff as well.
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` Q What other stuff related to USB did you
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` design?
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` A Power-on reset circuits using a band gap
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` reference and a CMOS reference. Circuits for
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` detecting signals.
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` Q Sorry. I think I missed it. What circuits
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` for detecting signals, CMOS?
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` A Receiving circuits technology. CMOS.
`
` Q Which portion of the USB specification did
`
` the circuits relate to?
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` Just for your reference, Exhibit 108 is USB
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` specification 1.1. It's Exhibit 1008.
`
` A The exhibit is 1008, but it's marked
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` Exhibit 1009 on the first page.
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` Q Well, then you may want to ask your counsel
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` because that's what we received.
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` Is the first page indicates revision 1.1?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. Then that's 1008. I think your
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` counsel marked it.
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` A You're asking me to look through this and
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` try to remember which one of the circuits I designed
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` applied to certain things within the specification?
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` Q Well, you can just look through the table of
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` contents. Does that jog your memory as to which part
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` it relates to?
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` A I have no context. These questions are all
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` open ended and I'm doing my best to answer them. I've
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` already testified that the circuits I designed were
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` related to drivers, receivers, power-on resets,
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` references, things along that line. And I was
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` designing cells used in the library for designing USB
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` circuits. I was told that what I was designing would
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` be used in USB and other things like modems, but
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` that's been a long time ago when I did those specific
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` designs. I'm just using that as one example.
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` Again, if you would like me to take a moment
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` and do a search on my patents with USB and see how
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` many mention USB I can do that.
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` Q Any other circuits that you designed that
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` have to do with USB communication or USB charging?
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` I'm not asking about theoretical patterns or papers
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` you wrote, I'm asking about the actual circuits you
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` designed?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I don't know. I have
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` designed all kinds of circuits for lots of different
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` companies and the way they used them is up to the
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` company.
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` In Tower's case, they told me when USB was
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` coming into existence that they wanted some circuits
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` that they could use for designing the USB interface
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` when it got nailed down. I'm sure I've done other
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` consulting work where they've used the interfaces for
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` various things that I've designed.
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` I mean, I have done a lot of design in
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` industry. I mean, I need some specific questions, I
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` guess. I'm trying to be helpful, but I don't really
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` know what I'm answering here.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: My question is what circuits
`
` have you designed for battery charging over USB?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Apple power supplies.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: And are those power supplies
`
` specific for battery charging over USB?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: They can be, it depends what
`
` the company does with it once I have designed it.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: So you don't really know the
`
` end application, what it is going to be used for
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` charging over USB or for some other purpose; correct?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: It's not that, I just have an
`
` absurd amount of experience. I mean, one of the first
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` things I ever designed back in 1986 was a
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` battery-charging system for camera data for a camera
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` that went underground in a nuclear weapons test.
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` I need some specific things because it's
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` asking me broad questions on my experience, which is
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` just very, very extensive.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: I am asking things that you
`
` don't really want to answer the question related to
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` your experience specific for battery charging over USB
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` or USB communication. So far all I heard is that you
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` may have designed some cells that are maybe used for
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` USB.
`
` It's okay for you to say, "I don't really
`
` know the end application."
`
` A Simplifying it, though.
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form, argumentative,
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` badgering the witness.
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` MS. ZHONG: Jason, I know you have taken a
`
` lot of those depositions, defended a lot of them and
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` you know what the proper form of objections are.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Go ahead, Dr. Baker.
`
` A If you want to look at one of my web pages
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` that details a tiny amount of my industry experience
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` and do a search for USB or Tower Semiconductor and ask
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` me a question about one of those circuits, I'm happy
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` to answer them. It would be on my main web page. Let
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` me look it up.
`
` Q Are you doing a web search right now?
`
` A No. Under Pubs under my main web page.
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` Just do a search for USB or for Tower and you can see
`
` some of the cells I worked on related to this work I'm
`
` trying to answer some of your questions with.
`
` Q I'm on cmos/baker/html, I entered USB, it
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` gives me zero.
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` A Click Pubs or publications, as I repeatedly
`
` answered.
`
` Q Your web page doesn't have a Pubs page.
`
` A I'm going to get online and look and tell
`
` you specifically and I will put it in the chat.
`
` Q I see some on there. It's still the same.
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` I don't see a USB.
`
` A I just put it in the chat.
`
` Q There's a single reference to the Tower
`
` Semiconductor work in Israel in 1997. Anything else?
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` A You're mistaken. For example, there's a
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` power-up/power-down circuit for Tower Semiconductor.
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` There is the design of USB interfaces for Tower
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` Semiconductor. There is a 10 MHz digital-to-analog
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` convertor for Tower Semiconductor. And there was a
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` high-speed receiver for Tower Semiconductor.
`
` Q Sir, I'm talking about USB-specific circuit.
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` And in the link you sent me, which is
`
` http//cmosedu.com/jbaker/projects/from.htm, when I
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` entered USB the only entry that I saw is a 1997
`
` reference to some work you did at Tower Semiconductor.
`
` A I apologize. I thought we were talking
`
` about circuits that are used in USB circuits like the
`
` power-up/power-down circuit, the receiver circuit,
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` digital-to-analog convertor, those would be used in
`
` USB controller and circuit. I didn't realize you
`
` wanted the term "USB" to be specifically in the
`
` search.
`
` Q That's what you asked me to look for,
`
` entries with USB in there.
`
` I think we found the exercise and the result
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` is there is only one USB-specific reference to your
`
` 1997 work, fair?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: According to your web page
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` that you directed me to?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Again, I mean, those circuits,
`
` the receiver, power-up/power-down, those are used in
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` USB. And at the time I did that work USB hadn't
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` really been nailed down, so they were also doing
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` development for modems. So they asked me to do the
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` development that they could use in USB for that one
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` specific example.
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` I have an absurd amount of experience
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` designing CMOS integrated circuits and I have written
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` several books on it and I hold over 150 patents. I
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` don't know what more to say on that topic.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: I don't know what more you
`
` can say either. You are experienced; just probably
`
` not in the USB area. But let's move on.
`
` When were you first approached to assist TCT
`
` in this matter?
`
` A Just a second --
`
` MR. LANG: Hold on. Objection to form.
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` I will instruct the witness not to disclose
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` any communications you had with counsel.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Dr. Baker, when were you
`
` first approached to assist in this matter?
`
` A I think sometime in 2020.
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` Q Who approached you?
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` A I don't recall.
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` Q What were you tasked to do?
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` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` And I will instruct the witness not to
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` disclose any information that attorneys instructed you
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` to do.
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` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Dr. Baker, what is your
`
` understanding of your task with this matter?
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` MR. LANG: I will caution the witness again
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` not to disclose specific tasks that you have been
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` communicated to perform by attorneys, but you can
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` state what you understand you're opining on.
`
` THE WITNESS: My understanding is that I was
`
` asked to look at the patent in this matter and
`
` evaluate whether certain claims of the patent were
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` valid in view of prior art. And I was asked to write
`
` a declaration with my opinions for the patent.
`
` And we haven't mentioned it, so I might as
`
` well get it into the record. This matter is about
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` patent 7,834,586, which I will refer to as the '586
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` patent.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: So you were asked to evaluate
`
` the validity of certain claims of the '586 patent
`
` prior art, that's your understanding of the task; is
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` that correct?
`
` A Not precisely. I was asked to look at the
`
` '586 patent and determine the validity of certain
`
` claims. I don't remember, I think I did look at
`
` certain prior art or prior art that I found on my own,
`
` but perhaps they were shown to me by somebody, I don't
`
` recall.
`
` Q Which prior art did you find on your own?
`
` A I just answered, I don't recall.
`
` Q Which prior art did you evaluate?
`
` A Prior art I evaluated in depth is listed in
`
` my declaration for this matter.
`
` Q Okay. Can you download your declaration and
`
` point me to the prior art that you actually evaluated,
`
` your declaration --
`
` A I --
`
` Q Sorry. Your declaration is Exhibit 1003.
`
` A The piece of prior art that I used in
`
` forming my opinions of invalidity is called Morita,
`
` and that is Exhibit --
`
` Q Let me help you. Original exhibit number is
`
` 1015, but your counsel has replaced it with
`
` Exhibit 1020.
`
` So Exhibit 1020 is a Morita reference that
`
` you mentioned; is that correct?
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` A That's with the English translation.
`
` Q Okay. Did you speak with whoever translated
`
` Exhibit 1020?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Can you read Japanese?
`
` A No.
`
` Q So you relied on the English translation in
`
` forming your opinion; is that correct?
`
` A And the figures in Morita, yes.
`
` Q Do you know who actually did the
`
` translation?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Did you evaluate any other prior art besides
`
` Morita?
`
` A I also evaluated the references that I cited
`
` in my declaration, which I can read them off if that
`
` would be helpful.
`
` Q Sure.
`
` A One is Kerai as U.S. patent 6,531,845.
`
` Another is Shiga. That is U.S. patent
`
` 6,625,738.
`
` Another is Zyskowski, that is U.S. patent
`
` application publication US20030135766.
`
` Fourth one is Casebolt. That is patent
`
` 6,625,790.
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` I also looked at a Cypress Semiconductor,
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` enCoReUSB data sheet.
`
` Q Any other reference, any other prior art did
`
` you evaluate?
`
` Let me ask you this, did you evaluate U.S.
`
` patent 7,360,004, Dougherty, which is Exhibit 1017?
`
` A Yes. But I think in this one I didn't use
`
` that specific patent. I was asked to look at -- oh, I
`
` think it was seven patents and I probably looked at
`
` that bunch for one of the others.
`
` Q Why did you choose Morita over Dougherty?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Well, Morita --
`
` MR. LANG: I will instruct the witness not
`
` to disclose any communications you had with counsel
`
` regarding the selection of references.
`
` THE WITNESS: I felt the Morita reference
`
` was clearer in showing that the claims of the '586
`
` patent were invalid.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: So it's your opinion that
`
` Dougherty does not clearly render obvious the claims
`
` of the '586 patent; is that correct?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: No.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Then why did you choose only
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` Morita but not Dougherty?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` Same caution to the witness not to disclose
`
` communications you've had with counsel regarding the
`
` selection or strategy in selecting references.
`
` THE WITNESS: I felt that the Morita more
`
` clearly showed that the claims of the '586 patent were
`
` invalid.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: What does Morita have that
`
` Dougherty doesn't?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm downloading Dougherty to
`
` look at it.
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: Sure.
`
` A I don't recall why I didn't also think
`
` Morita was invalidating prior art.
`
` Q Are you familiar with the reference U.S.
`
` 6,904,488 to Matsumoto?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q That will be Exhibit 2005.
`
` (Exhibit 2005 was marked for
`
` identification.)
`
` Q BY MS. ZHONG: And why did you choose
`
` Matsumoto?
`
` MR. LANG: Objection to form.
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` I'm going to actually instruct the witness
`
` not to answer that. And, Annita, I think I'm going to
`
` send an email to the board and see if we can have a
`
` call with the board, and if you want to go on to
`
` another line of questions while we do that, we can do
`
` that. This is clearly outside the scope of his
`
` declaration.
`
` MS. ZHONG: No, it is not. I'm entitled to
`
` ask what he thought about the references, the strength
`
` and weakness of the combination he presented versus
`
` the ones he considered. And that goes to motivation
`
` to combine, motivation to modify whether it's obvious.
`
` MR. LANG: You haven't established whether
`
` he considered these references.
`
` MS. ZHONG: That's why I'm asking him. I
`
` asked him whether he's familiar with Matsumoto.
`
` MR. LANG: We can go off the record. I'm
`
` going to send an email to the board. Let's go off the
`
` record while I send an email to the board, I guess.
`
` MS. ZHONG: That's fine.
`
` (A brief recess was ta
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