Fundamental Innovation System International
`
`
`
`In the Matter Of:
`
`TCT Mobile Inc. vs
`
`KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.
`
`February 18, 2022
`
`Petitioners Ex. 1021
`IPR USP 7,834,586
`Page 1 of 315
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`Petitioners Ex. 1021
`IPR USP 7,834,586
`Page 1 of 315
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`
`
`
`
`In the Matter Of:
`
`TCT Mobile Inc. vs
`
`KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.
`
`February 18, 2022
`
`Petitioners Ex. 1021
`IPR USP 7,834,586
`Page 1 of 315
`
`Petitioners Ex. 1021
`IPR USP 7,834,586
`Page 1 of 315
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`
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`· · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`TCT MOBILE (US), INC.; TCT· · · · · ·Case No.
`MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS, INC.;· · · · · IPR2021-00599
`HUIZHOU TCL MOBILE· · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No.
`COMMUNICATION CO. LTD.;· · · · · · · 7,834,586
`AND TCL HUIZHOU TCL MOBILE
`COMMUNICATION CO. LTD.; AND
`TCL COMMUNICATION, INC.,
`
`· · · · · Petitioners,
`
`· · ·v.
`
`FUNDAMENTAL INNOVATION SYSTEMS
`INTERNATIONAL LLC,
`
`· · · · · Patent Owner.
`______________________________/
`
`· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.
`
`· · · · · · · ·TAKEN REMOTELY VIA ZOOM
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·February 18, 2022
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·7:59 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`Kristi Caruthers
`
`CLR, CSR No. 10560
`
`Job No. 2022-829243
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`2
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`· · · · · · · Remote Deposition via Zoom
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`· · · · · · · February 18, 2022
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION OF KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.,
`
`taken remotely via Zoom pursuant to agreement
`
`before Kristi Caruthers, a California Shorthand
`
`Reporter of the State of California.
`
`Petitioners Ex. 1021
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`3
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`REMOTE APPEARANCES:
`
`· · ·For Petitioners:
`
`· · · · · ORRICK, HERRINGTON & SUTCLIFFE LLP
`· · · · · BY: JASON LANG, ESQ.
`· · · · · 1000 Marsh Road
`· · · · · Menlo Park, California 94025-1015
`· · · · · 650.614.7400
`· · · · · jlang@orrick.com
`
`· · ·For Patent Owner:
`
`· · · · · IRELL & MANELLA, LLP
`· · · · · BY:· HONG (ANNITA) ZHONG, ESQ.
`· · · · · 1800 Avenue of the Stars
`· · · · · Suite 900
`· · · · · Los Angeles, California· 90067
`· · · · · 310.203.7183
`· · · · · hzhong@irell.com
`
`· · ·Also Present:
`
`· · · · · Bryan Beltran, Deposition Monitor
`
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`· · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`· · · ·WITNESS:· Kenneth Fernald, Ph.D.
`
`4
`
`EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`By Mr. Lang· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·6, 278
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`· · · · · (AFTERNOON SESSION)· · · · · · ·147
`
`By Ms. Zhong· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 258
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`5
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`· · · ·INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`· · ·KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.
`
`· · Friday, February 18, 2022
`
`Kristi Caruthers, CLR, CSR 10560
`
`· · · · EXHIBITS MARKED:
`
`· · · · · · ·(NONE)
`
`QUESTIONS UNANSWERED BY DEPONENT:
`
`· · · · · · ·(NONE)
`
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`6
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`· · · · · · · REMOTE DEPOSITION VIA ZOOM
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`· · · · · · · FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 2022
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·7:59 A.M.
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·---o0o---
`
`· · · · · · · · KENNETH FERNALD, PH.D.,
`
`· · · · ·called as a witness and sworn in by
`
`· · · · the deposition reporter, was examined
`
`· · · · · · · ·and testified as follows:
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION REPORTER:· Please raise your
`
`right hand.
`
`· · · · · Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
`
`you are about to give in this matter shall be the
`
`truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
`
`so help you God?
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I do.
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION REPORTER:· Please commence.
`
`· · · · · MR. LANG:· This is Jason Lang on behalf of
`
`Petitioner.
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Doctor -- or, sir, can you state your name
`
`for the record.
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`· · ·A.· ·Kenneth Wilson Fernald.
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`· · · Q.· And I assume you've been deposed before?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I have.
`
`· · · Q.· And you're familiar with the rules and all
`
`7
`
`that?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I think I am.
`
`· · · Q.· Is there any reason you can't testify
`
`truthfully today?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Nothing I'm aware of.
`
`· · · Q.· So I'm just going to start with,
`
`Dr. Fernald, you had referenced some of your work at
`
`Intermedics in 1998, and you had referred to -- to
`
`certain work on USB devices.
`
`· · · · · Do you recall that?
`
`· · ·A.· ·At Intermedics?· I don't recall that.
`
`I -- was that Cygnal, maybe.
`
`· · · Q.· Cygnal, yeah.
`
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, Cygnal.· That would be correct.
`
`That's when I first started working with USB in any
`
`serious way.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· And what were those USB devices
`
`that you worked on at Cygnal?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Two major categories.· At a high level, we
`
`were doing micro control.· We were designing
`
`microcontrollers that included USB interfaces.· So
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`8
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`they could be configured to operate a USB device.
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`So they included, you know, the transceivers, the
`
`USB, SIE or serial interface engines, all the logic
`
`you'd need to be a USB device.· We also did board
`
`level USB devices and, specifically, they were our
`
`debugging adapters.
`
`· · · Q.· And were those designed to be USB hosts,
`
`USB, you know, functions, or they could be both?
`
`· · ·A.· ·The work at Cygnal, at that time, they
`
`were all limited to USB functions.· Later on, I
`
`worked on USB products that could also be a host
`
`under an on-the-go setup.· So they could be an OTG
`
`host.
`
`· · · · · Actually, there's a bit of a caveat there.
`
`Some of the transceivers I designed at Cygnal could
`
`be used for hosts; we just never used them that way
`
`in those particular products.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· Did those -- were those USB devices
`
`that you worked on at Cygnal configured to receive
`
`the SE1 signal?
`
`· · ·A.· ·They complied with the USB specifications
`
`in the sense that if an SE1 was detected, it was
`
`treated as an error state, as I recall.
`
`· · · Q.· And what did the USB devices that you
`
`worked on at Cygnal do in response to detecting an
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`SE1 signal?
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`· · ·A.· ·I could only assume that -- we were trying
`
`to follow the specifications, so I can only assume
`
`that it was treated the same as an SE0.· In fact,
`
`which basically it was required to be treated as a
`
`bus reset, if I remember correctly.· But again, I'm
`
`just assuming they were following the spec as we
`
`intended.
`
`· · · Q.· And did -- were anything about the design
`
`of the USB devices that you worked on at Cygnal not
`
`follow the USB specification?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I'm just trying to think through some of
`
`the -- some of those customer features we added.
`
`Let me think for a second.· Not that I recall, no.
`
`· · · Q.· And you had referred to some debug
`
`functionality you worked on at Cygnal as well.
`
`· · · · · Did that debug functionality have the
`
`capability to detect SE1 -- SE1 signals?
`
`· · ·A.· ·The -- it would be the same answer.· We
`
`were using -- the first generation -- let me explain
`
`what I was talking about.
`
`· · · · · The debug adapter is a function.· It's the
`
`function that customers could buy.· They could plug
`
`into our microcontrollers and use them to debug
`
`their software that's running on that
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`microcontroller.· So it's a development tool for our
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`10
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`customers.
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`· · · · · And the first generation of those we
`
`purchased off-the-shelf microcontrollers that had
`
`USB interfaces on them and coded them to be a USB
`
`function.· I can't speak to whether those
`
`microcontrollers could detect an SE1 or not. I
`
`don't know the answer to that.· All I can say is
`
`they were advertised to be USB compliant.
`
`· · · Q.· Now, you refer -- and I think you had
`
`mentioned this earlier -- you refer to some work at
`
`Silicon Laboratories in 2010 and you refer to
`
`certain work with USB applications.
`
`· · · · · Is that what you were referring to earlier
`
`when you talked about some USB functionality of host
`
`On-the-Go?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Correct.· That was when I was at Silicon
`
`Labs.
`
`· · · Q.· Well, backing up to the -- to the USB
`
`devices that you worked on in Cygnal, and I
`
`understand this was around -- what time period was
`
`this?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I was at Cygnal from '99 to 2003, I
`
`believe, and that's when it was acquired by Silicon
`
`Laboratories, was in 2003, the end of that year.
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`· · · Q.· And just so we can get on the same page
`
`here, so I understand when a -- a USB device is
`
`attached to a USB port, it -- it may be enumerated
`
`and configured, but it need not be enumerated and
`
`configured by the host system; correct?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean there's -- if
`
`you're -- if we're referring to what the
`
`specification says, there's really no language in
`
`the specification that implies that you would
`
`connect a host and it's never enumerated.
`
`· · · · · I mean it's just kind of assumed that
`
`that's going to happen as a basis for the
`
`specification.· I mean there's no requirement as to
`
`how long it takes, as I recall, but there's nothing
`
`in the spec that says -- or that covers that
`
`scenario, if you will.
`
`· · · Q.· How long does enumeration take?
`
`· · ·A.· ·The ones -- you know, typically, I've made
`
`measurements of USB devices and seen that kind of
`
`traffic, and it kind of depends on where you start
`
`measuring the beginning point, but it's a couple of
`
`hundred milliseconds, maybe, something like that.
`
`· · · Q.· So it's your opinion that when a USB is
`
`attached to a computer, it will always be enumerated
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`and configured at that -- at that time?
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`· · ·A.· ·That's not what I said.· Quite frankly, I
`
`have not investigated that.
`
`· · · · · Oh, I'm sorry.· Go ahead Mrs. Zhong.
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Sorry.· I'm just lodging my
`
`objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I have not investigated
`
`whether that ever happens.· All I've said is there's
`
`no language in the spec that describes it not
`
`happening, you know.· So basically, that scenario is
`
`simply not addressed in the specification at all
`
`that I'm aware of.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Well, if I plugged into a USB device to my
`
`computer and my computer was off, you don't think it
`
`would be enumerated and configured, do you?
`
`· · ·A.· ·No, no.· In that scenario --
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· -- assume that generally
`
`we're not --
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I couldn't speak to any
`
`specific device, you know, what they may have done
`
`in backup or sleep mode.
`
`///
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`BY MR. LANG:
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`· · · Q.· And what is the host -- excuse me.· And
`
`you guessed my next question.
`
`· · · · · If a computer was in a reduced power state
`
`and a USB device was attached, do you expect the USB
`
`device to be enumerated and configured?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I couldn't say.· It would
`
`depend on what capabilities the device -- the
`
`computer would still have in that reduced power
`
`state.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· And are you aware of the literature
`
`discussing before 2000 USB devices being attached
`
`and them not being configured and enumerated until
`
`the host decided to use the device?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I don't know specifically what you're
`
`referring to.
`
`· · · Q.· Are you -- are you aware before 2000 of
`
`USB devices being attached to a USB port and a
`
`common sense computer decision being made not to
`
`enumerate and configure the device until there was a
`
`need to use the USB device?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form, and also
`
`objection; scope.
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`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· That does not come to mind,
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`14
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`that scenario.· I don't recall that.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· And if I understand it, when you plug in a
`
`USB device to a USB port, one of the first things
`
`that has to happen is a reset has to be sent to kick
`
`off kind of the handshaking protocol; is that right?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Well, that is one step of the enumeration
`
`process.· It's not the first step, but it is one
`
`step in there.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.
`
`· · ·A.· ·And this is a reset as defined by USB, so
`
`it's a reset of the USB interface, not necessarily
`
`the entire device, just to be clear.
`
`· · · Q.· And which -- let's see if we can get our
`
`terminology here.
`
`· · · · · If I'm thinking of like a USB device like
`
`a mouse or a keyboard --
`
`· · ·A.· ·Sure.
`
`· · · Q.· -- and then I'm plugging that into a
`
`computer, would we call the computer in that
`
`situation the host?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Assuming you're -- it's plugged into a
`
`host port, yes.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· In that situation, what device
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`would send the reset as part of the enumeration?
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`· · ·A.· ·The reset is sent by the communication
`
`host, so it would be the -- whatever port the device
`
`is plugged in -- whatever port the mouse was plugged
`
`into, for example, whether it's on the computer or
`
`on a hub attached to the computer.
`
`· · · Q.· And if the -- the computer doesn't send
`
`the reset, then there is no enumeration?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Well, again, yes.· Reset is part of
`
`enumeration, so it would not be enumeration as
`
`defined by the specification if it doesn't have that
`
`step in it, I would assume.
`
`· · · Q.· So -- and I guess let me back up.
`
`· · ·A.· ·Actually, there is one caveat I should
`
`throw in just for clarity.
`
`· · · · · The default state out of a USB hub port is
`
`the reset state when something's not connected to
`
`it.· So when you first plug a device into it, it is
`
`sort of passively generating a reset, probably even
`
`to stop power.· I'd have to go and investigate that.
`
`· · · · · So things get a little funny about what we
`
`mean here, but there is an explicit reset period
`
`that's defined as one of the enumeration steps, is
`
`what I was referring to earlier.
`
`· · · Q.· Right.· And that's the same reset that I'm
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`referring to.
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`· · · · · So I guess -- and you had described, I
`
`believe, the -- the enumeration as a handshaking
`
`process.· So by that, I understand two hands, if
`
`it's a series of steps that both the host and the
`
`USB device are performing.
`
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.· In the report when I talk about
`
`enumeration, I'm referring to how it's described in
`
`the USB specification, which is a series of events,
`
`and a number of them is, you know, communication
`
`back and forth between the devices.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· And we had just earlier referred to
`
`kind of an initial state of the device.
`
`· · · · · So when I plug in a USB device to a
`
`computer, for example, what is the very first step
`
`of this handshaking protocol?
`
`· · ·A.· ·It gets a little fuzzy where you start
`
`what you called the beginning, but if you look at
`
`the number of steps that they're describing in the
`
`specification, I believe the -- you know, the
`
`plugging in of the port is called step one, if I
`
`remember correctly.
`
`· · · · · So, you know, it's the physical attaching
`
`of the mouse port or mouse plug into the host
`
`receptacle, and then there's a series of events that
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`happen beyond that.
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`· · · Q.· And is the second step the host simply
`
`recognizing somehow that something's been connected,
`
`or is there a signal sent to the host?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Well, first, Vbus comes up.· So you power
`
`the device, and then the device asserts a pull-up
`
`resistor on one of the two data lines to indicate
`
`both its speed and, also, that's how it notifies the
`
`hub or host that it's -- it exists.
`
`· · · Q.· So when the host wants to start the
`
`enumeration process, I understand that the first
`
`thing it will do is then look at the data lines to
`
`figure out which one's high to understand the speed
`
`setting of the USB device?
`
`· · ·A.· ·It certainly looks at which --
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION REPORTER:· Excuse me.· I need
`
`to go off the record due to a technical difficulty.
`
`· · · · · (Whereupon, a recess was held
`
`· · · · · from 8:15 a.m. to 8:18 a.m.)
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION REPORTER:· Would you like me to
`
`read the last question I have?
`
`· · · · · MR. LANG:· Sure.· That would be great.
`
`· · · · · DEPOSITION REPORTER:· (Reading):
`
`· · · · · "So when the host wants to start
`
`· · · · · the enumeration process, I
`
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`· · · · · understand that the first thing
`
`· · · · · it will do is then look at the
`
`· · · · · data lines to figure out which
`
`· · · · · one's high to understand the
`
`· · · · · speed setting of the USB device?"
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe I answered that
`
`question, Mr. Lang, and I think your next question
`
`is what if it saw an SE1.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Yes.
`
`· · ·A.· ·So why don't you repeat that for me, if
`
`you don't mind, just so we're clean.
`
`· · · Q.· So imagine the scenario, Dr. Fernald, when
`
`you plug in a USB device and the first thing the USB
`
`device does is pulls both data lines high.
`
`· · · · · What would happen?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Well, there's a debounce period, first of
`
`all.· It doesn't matter what the device does for the
`
`first hundred milliseconds after either of the data
`
`lines goes high.· So, you know, it's just kind of a
`
`blanking period, if you will.
`
`· · · · · So after that, though, if an SE1 occurred,
`
`the hub port, which basically every downstream
`
`facing port is a hub port of one sort or another,
`
`and this is again, according to the specification,
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`if it sees an SE1 I think longer than 2 1/2
`
`microseconds, it's supposed to disable the host
`
`board.
`
`· · · Q.· And the '586 patent disclosed as sending
`
`an SE1 signal, the identification signal; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· ·That is one of the identification signals
`
`that it describes.
`
`· · · Q.· And in the '586 patent, I take it that
`
`the -- that the USB host would be configured to
`
`detect the SE1 signal and do something in response
`
`to it?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Actually, let me back you
`
`up.· Now I'm starting to question whether I heard
`
`your previous question correctly.
`
`· · · · · Can we go back to that one, please, and
`
`would you repeat it for me.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Yeah.· The question is, is let's say that
`
`I plug in the USB device and I pull up the data
`
`lines to high and I leave them there for, you know,
`
`one second.
`
`· · · · · What happens during that one-second
`
`period?
`
`· · ·A.· ·No, I understood that question.· I've
`
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`answered it correctly.· After that, you said about
`
`in the '586 patent.· That's the one that I'm not
`
`sure I heard you right.
`
`· · · Q.· Yeah.· The '586 patent discloses a USB
`
`device sending a SE1 signal; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· ·No.· It's describing a device detecting an
`
`identification signal, which can be an SE1.· So that
`
`would -- for example, had been generated by what the
`
`device was plugged into, not by the device itself.
`
`And that's the caveat I want to make sure -- the
`
`correction I want to make sure we got in because I
`
`think I misspoke before.
`
`· · · Q.· Right.· The '586 patent isn't about
`
`sending a SE1 signal; it's about detecting the SE1
`
`signal?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, that's what's recited
`
`in the claim that I recall, yes.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· And I believe you had testified that
`
`according to the USB spec, if you plug in a USB
`
`device and you pull the data lines high, that after
`
`a period of time, it would enter a suspended mode;
`
`is that right, or a disabled mode?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Well, again, if a USB hub detects an SE1
`
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`on its downstream facing port, it's supposed to
`
`disable that port, is the language that the spec
`
`uses.
`
`· · · Q.· And what happens, then, if the disabled
`
`port, one of the data lines goes low?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I'd probably have to investigate that.
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection to form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't recall off the top
`
`of my head what the mechanism is for recovering from
`
`that disabled state.· I'd have to reference the
`
`specification.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Now, in this disabled state, the USB
`
`device could be reset and then enumerated; correct?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection --
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, I mean when the port's
`
`disabled -- again, you're sort of talking about how
`
`does it recover from that disabled state after
`
`detecting an SE1, and again, I'd have to go and see
`
`what the mechanism -- mechanism is described, as
`
`described in the USB spec.· I just don't remember
`
`off the top of my head.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Certainly you agree that -- that it could
`
`then be enumerated and configured?
`
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`· · ·A.· ·I'm sure there's some sort of recovery
`
`mechanism where that eventually happens, but I don't
`
`know what the process is off the top of my head.
`
`· · · Q.· Because let's say that I'm using a USB
`
`mouse, and in the middle of when I'm using it, I
`
`unplug it and then I plug it back in.
`
`· · · · · In that situation, the USB device is
`
`reconfigured, re-enumerated and connected back into
`
`data communications; right?
`
`· · ·A.· ·That is the intended behavior, sure.
`
`· · · Q.· Now, you had referred to the charge-only
`
`mode of Morita.· I know you disagree that you --
`
`that Morita expressly discloses a charge-only mode,
`
`but do you know what I am referring to when I refer
`
`to Morita's charge-only mode?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I certainly am aware of what Dr. Baker --
`
`how Dr. Baker characterizes what he identifies as a
`
`charge-only mode.
`
`· · · Q.· Yeah.· And just so we can get on the same
`
`page, I understand that Dr. Baker had testified and
`
`that the charge-only mode refers to the Morita
`
`adapter having the phone plugged into it or sat --
`
`set on the base station, no peripherals connected,
`
`no computer connected.
`
`· · · · · Is that what you understand Dr. Baker is
`
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`referring to as charge-only mode?
`
`· · ·A.· ·With the caveat that he also states that
`
`it's a mode in which USB communications is possible.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· Well, I want to refer to just a
`
`situation where you plug in the phone but do not
`
`have a computer connected or peripherals connected.
`
`Whether there's USB communications or not, I just
`
`want to talk about that mode where you only have the
`
`phone connected.
`
`· · · · · Should I call that, like, only phone
`
`connected mode, or how do you want me to refer to
`
`that?
`
`· · ·A.· ·That's fine, just whatever language you
`
`want to use.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· So in the situation where only the
`
`phone is connected to the base station and a
`
`peripheral is then attached to the charger, it's my
`
`understanding that the first thing that would happen
`
`is the hub would learn of the attachment of the
`
`peripheral, and it would have a status indicator to
`
`reflect that; is that correct?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Let me begin by -- you
`
`called it a "base station."· I'm assuming you're
`
`referring to Morita's charging station when you use
`
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`that term.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Correct.
`
`· · ·A.· ·Okay.· Morita does not explicitly describe
`
`that procedure, as I recall, but a normal USB hub,
`
`you know, standard USB hub, it would identify a
`
`peripheral being connected, as we described earlier,
`
`by seeing one of the data lines pulled high and then
`
`report that to whatever host is available, whatever
`
`host it's connected to.
`
`· · · Q.· And as you understand Morita, in that
`
`situation, whatever the host is would have to send a
`
`reset to then enumerate and configure the attached
`
`peripheral; is that right?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, something would have
`
`to reset the peripheral.· I don't recall that
`
`Morita -- is it Morita or Morito?· It's Morita.
`
`There's an A on the end; right?
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Yeah.
`
`· · ·A.· ·I don't recall that Morita goes through
`
`that process in detail.· You know, it discusses the
`
`modes in the context of what's connected at a given
`
`time.· It doesn't really walk through the procedures
`
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`of connects and disconnects, that kind of thing.
`
`· · · Q.· And as a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art, would you understand that the host is sending a
`
`reset to configure the peripheral or that the Morita
`
`charger or adapter itself would be sending the reset
`
`to enumerate and configure the peripheral?
`
`· · ·A.· ·As I recall, Dr. Baker didn't address this
`
`topic in his report, and I haven't looked into that,
`
`as such, exactly what that mechanism is in Morita.
`
`· · · Q.· Could it be the hub that sends the reset
`
`and configures the attached peripheral?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Again, Morita describes two
`
`scenarios:· One's where the phone is the host and
`
`one where a desktop PC is a host.
`
`· · · · · I don't -- I've not looked into how the
`
`signaling is described or would be understood if
`
`neither host is present, for example.· That's just
`
`not a scenario that's described in Morita, and it's
`
`not one that I've looked at in regards to your
`
`question.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· Let's say in the Morita embodiments
`
`or disclosure, now, I assume you agree that one
`
`could either connect --
`
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`· · · · · (Telephonic interruption.)
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Let me start over.
`
`· · ·A.· ·Sure.
`
`· · · Q.· In Morita, I assume you'd agree that the
`
`phone can be either connected to the charger or
`
`disconnected?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I assume so.· But he only describes the
`
`functionality of when it's connected, you know, what
`
`the function of the system is when it's actually
`
`connected.· But he does mention you can remove the
`
`phone if a phone call comes in, for example.
`
`· · · Q.· And the computer can be connected and
`
`disconnected, too; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, that's my understanding.
`
`· · · Q.· Well, let's take the case when I pick up
`
`the phone for a phone call and there's no computer
`
`connected.
`
`· · · · · What happens when a peripheral device is
`
`attached in that situation?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Again, Morita doesn't describe the
`
`behavior of his system in that scenario.· I can only
`
`speculate based on what the standard USB would do.
`
`· · · Q.· And what would be your speculation based
`
`off the standard USB functionality?
`
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`· · ·A.· ·Well, if a host is removed, then any
`
`powered hub would just go into a disabled state --
`
`well, any bus-powered hub would just lose power and,
`
`you know, nothing.· The whole thing just collapses.
`
`· · · · · If it's self-powered as in the Morita
`
`case, then it would see what is effectively an idle
`
`state on the substream port and would go into
`
`suspend mode, I believe.
`
`· · · Q.· So I guess your opinion, then, is that's
`
`like a defect in Morita.· Morita wouldn't work if
`
`the phone wasn't connected.· If the computer wasn't
`
`connected and you attach a peripheral, it wouldn't
`
`be recognized by the system?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's certainly not what I
`
`said.· I simply said that Morita does not describe
`
`that behavior, you know, what his system does if the
`
`phone is removed and there's no other host.· He just
`
`doesn't address that at all.· I'm just telling you
`
`what a standard USB system would do.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Well, as a person of ordinary skill in the
`
`art, how do you think it would -- would work?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Are we talking about Morita here again?
`
`· · · Q.· Right.
`
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`· · ·A.· ·Again, this is not a scenario that
`
`Dr. Baker addressed that I remember, and it's not
`
`one I've studied.· So I couldn't say.
`
`· · · Q.· Well, sitting here, do you think that --
`
`that if the phone -- let me just back up.
`
`· · · · · You agree that Morita discloses that a
`
`computer can be connected or not?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, it can -- you know, it describes
`
`either a computer -- a connected computer as a host
`
`or a connected mobile phone as the host.· Those are
`
`the two scenarios it describes.
`
`· · · Q.· And you agree that Morita discloses that
`
`you can pick up the phone to make a phone call?
`
`· · ·A.· ·It does say that, yes.
`
`· · · Q.· So one scenario that Morita contemplates
`
`is that there would be no computer or phone
`
`connected to the charger?
`
`· · ·A.· ·It never states that explicitly.
`
`· · · Q.· So you believe that Morita will only work
`
`if you have the phone or the computer connected?
`
`· · ·A.· ·I didn't say that.· I simply said it
`
`doesn't describe what that behavior would be if
`
`neither is connected.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· And as a person of ordinary skill
`
`in the art, how would you expect the -- the behavior
`
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`
`to be when a phone is not connected, a computer is
`
`not connected and you plug in a peripheral?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Again, that was not addressed by
`
`Dr. Baker.· It's not something I've studied in the
`
`context of Morita.
`
`· · · Q.· So you don't have an understanding that a
`
`status indicator would be saved by the hub in that
`
`situation?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't remember -- I don't
`
`remember reaching that conclusion.· If you think
`
`otherwise, I'd appreciate you directing me to, you
`
`know, related language in my declaration.· But to my
`
`knowledge, I have not studied that to be able to
`
`answer that question.
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· And do you -- as you sit here today, do
`
`you have an opinion on whether you suspect that a
`
`status indicator would be saved in that situation?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.· Objection;
`
`scope.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Again, I don't -- I don't
`
`recall reaching that conclusion or forming that
`
`opinion as I sit here.
`
`///
`
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`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· I mean, it just seems odd to me.· If I --
`
`if I attach a peripheral and nothing's connected and
`
`then I put the phone back down.· Is it your opinion
`
`that you think for it to work I'd have to unplug the
`
`peripheral and plug it back in?
`
`· · · · · MS. ZHONG:· Objection; form.
`
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· For it to work?· You mean
`
`when you put the phone back in, it reestablishes
`
`communication with the peripheral?· Is that what
`
`you're asking?
`
`BY MR. LANG:
`
`· · · Q.· Yeah.
`
`· · ·A.· ·You know, again, Dr. -- I mean excuse
`
`me -- Dr. Baker does not raise this issue in his
`
`report.· I have not looked into that aspect of
`
`Morita.· I can tell you what a standard USB system
`
`would do, but --
`
`· · · Q.· What would a standard USB system do?
`
`· · ·A.· ·Pretty much what we described before.
`
`When the hub lost its host, I believe -- and I'd
`
`want to go check the spec to verify this -- that it
`
`would go into suspend mode, assuming it's
`
`self-powered.
`
`· · · · · You know, actually, I'll correct that.· It
`
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`would lose Vbus on its upstream port.· It would know
`
`it's been disconnected from the host, and I believe
`
`it simply disables everything, and when the new host
`
`is connected, a USB system would re-enumerate the
`
`entire system and bring it back up from scratch, is
`
`my understanding of the specification as I sit here.
`
`· · · · · Whether that is what Morita does, he
`
`simply doesn't address that mode at all, or the
`
`behavior of it, at least.
`
`· · · Q.· And take the case of a powered hub that is
`
`not in suspend mode; it's connected to a host.
`
`· · · · · When a device is attached, like a
`
`peripheral device in Morita, what happens?
`
`· · ·A.· ·When you said it's a powered hub, do you
`
`mean bus-powered or self-powered?· What did you mean
`
`by that term?· You mean --
`
`· · · Q.· I understand you say Morita is a
`
`self-powered hub; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· ·That is correct, yes.
`
`· · · Q.· Okay.· So let's take the case of a phone
`
`being connected in Morita as the host --
`
`· · ·A.· ·Uh-huh.
`
`· · · Q.· -- and a USB peripheral is attached to the
`
`Morita charger.· Walk me through the first couple of
`
`steps of what happens.
`
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`· · ·A.· ·I don't recall that Morita describes that
`
`scenario.· He only describes the sort of static
`
`cases where, "Hey, I've got a phone connected and
`
`it's got a couple of peripherals connected and
`
`here's, you know, the host and it can use the
`
`peripherals," that kind of thing.
`
`· · · · · Morita doesn't explicitly walk through
`
`those -- you know, the changes between modes that
`
`you're describing.· So the best I can do is tell you
`
`what a standard USB system would do.
`
`· · · Q.· And what would a standard USB system do?
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