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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEALS BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE, INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`: Case No. IPR2021-00592
`: U.S. Patent No. 10,469,934
`v.
`:
`KOSS CORPORATION,
`:
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`REMOTELY CONDUCTED DEPOSITION OF
`JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, PHD
`FRIDAY, APRIL 22, 2022
`11:28 A.M. CST
`
`JOB NO.: 445043
`PAGES: 1 - 119
`REPORTED BY: KARISA EKENSEAIR, CCR RPR
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`KOSS-2049
`IPR2021-00592
`
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`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEALS BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE, INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`: Case No. IPR2021-00592
`: U.S. Patent No. 10,469,934
`v.
`:
`KOSS CORPORATION,
`:
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`REMOTELY CONDUCTED DEPOSITION OF
`JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, PHD
`FRIDAY, APRIL 22, 2022
`11:28 A.M. CST
`
`JOB NO.: 445043
`PAGES: 1 - 119
`REPORTED BY: KARISA EKENSEAIR, CCR RPR
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`2
`
` DEPOSITION OF JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, PHD,
`CONDUCTED VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE.
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Karisa J.
`Ekenseair, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for
`the States of Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Illinois;
`National Registered Professional Reporter, Notary
`Public in and for the State of Arkansas.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER (VIA ZOOM):
` SETH SPROUL, ESQUIRE
` RYAN CHOWDHURY, ESQUIRE
` JOEL HENRY, ESQUIRE
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` 3200 RBC PLAZA
` 60 SOUTH SIXTH STREET
` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55402
` 202-783-5070
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER (VIA ZOOM):
` BRIAN BOZZO, ESQUIRE
` LAUREN MURRAY, ESQUIRE
` MARK G. KNEDEISEN, ESQUIRE
` K&L GATES LLP
` 210 SIXTH AVENUE
` PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA 15222
` 412-355-6500
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` MALCOLM COOKE, REMOTE TECHNICIAN
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`4
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` T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S
` PAGE
`STYLE AND NUMBER........................ 1
`APPEARANCES............................. 3
`
`WITNESS: JEREMY COOPERSTOCK
`EXAMINATION BY MR. BOZZO.............. 5
`EXAMINATION BY MR. SPROUL............. 114
`FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. BOZZO...... 115
`
`CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER............... 118
`
` EXHIBITS
` (RETAINED BY COUNSEL)
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`KOSS 2049 MAXIM INTEGRATED TECHNICAL
` PUBLICATION TITLED AN
` INTRODUCTION TO SWITCH
` MODE POWER SUPPLIES......... 73
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`5
`
` JEREMY COOPERSTOCK
`of lawful age, being first duly sworn, deposes and
`says in reply to the questions propounded as
`follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. BOZZO:
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, good morning. Just for
`clarity, we have now transitioned to IPR2021-00592
`regarding the '934 patent.
` I wanted to confirm, do you have the
`copies of my exhibits and are they searchable via
`Control F, OCR?
` A The only one that is not is the Haupt
`reference and that's --
` Q Okay.
` A I do not seem to have a copy of this
`particular U.S. publication that is searchable.
` Q With that -- and just to confirm which
`reference is that?
` A That is --
` Q 2049?
` A 1030.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`6
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` Q 1030. Okay.
` A I have versions of the -- the same that
`were the -- I believe the German patent
`application, but there may have been subtle
`differences between them.
` Q I understand. Okay. I apologize. I
`heard Koss reference and you said Haupt.
` A Haupt, yes.
` Q Perfect. Okay. All right.
` And to confirm, how did you prepare for
`today's deposition?
` MR. SPROUL: Before -- before you answer
`that, I'm just going to give the caution, wasn't
`an issue last time, don't reveal privileged
`information. Go ahead.
` THE WITNESS: Very good.
` A I prepared by reviewing my original
`declaration, my supplemental declaration, the
`references on which I relied, and the patent at
`issue.
` Q Okay. Great. And about how long did you
`spend preparing for the deposition?
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`7
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` A Sorry, I neglected -- I also had
`conversations with the attorneys at Fish &
`Richardson.
` How long did I spend preparing? I can't
`really divide between the two because it was part
`of all the same review process. So I would expect
`about 10 hours preparation for today.
` Q And then regarding your supplemental
`declaration, Dr. Cooperstock, about how long did
`you spend preparing that?
` A Do you mean reviewing that for -- in
`advance of today's deposition?
` Q Actually, preparing the declaration
`itself, if you recall.
` A I'm afraid I don't recall.
` Q Okay. Do you have a rough estimate of how
`many days it took you to prepare that?
` A I do not. I was working on several
`declarations at the same time.
` Q Okay. You executed the declaration on
`March 2nd, Dr. Cooperstock. About how many -- how
`many hours on March 2nd do you estimate that you
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`8
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`spent looking at the declaration?
` A I really -- I cannot give you an hour
`count on a particular day as to how long I spent
`on that particular declaration.
` Q Just in review prior to your execution of
`the document, you can't recall if it was, like,
`one hour, two hours, three hours?
` A As I said, in my review prior to today's
`deposition, I would estimate that I spent
`collectively between the two cases that we're
`dealing with today approximately ten hours.
` Q That's in preparation for today's
`deposition, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Okay. I'm referring to on March 2nd for
`Apple, I believe it's 1027. Your supplemental
`declaration has your signature on it dated
`March 2nd, 2022.
` So my question is not regarding
`preparation for today's deposition, but it is
`about how long do you anticipate -- or do you
`remember reviewing that document prior to putting
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
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`9
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`your signature on it?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A Well, there are multiple rounds of
`activity involved in the preparation of any
`declaration. There's initial discussion about the
`patent, reviewing the patent, looking at prior art
`materials, preparing initial drafts, discussion
`with the attorneys, editing, revising.
` I -- when you ask me how long I spent
`reviewing it, I mean, there were multiple rounds
`of review. And I really am struggling to sort of
`give you even a ballpark estimate for how many
`hours that was, given that there were multiple
`rounds spread over multiple days and it was
`working on other activities in parallel.
` Q Okay. Let me put it this way: Were there
`any errors that you remember correcting in the
`supplemental declaration, Apple 1027, on March 2nd
`prior to putting your signature on it?
` A I do not recall whether I noted errors
`specifically on March the 2nd.
` Q Okay. All right. Let's transition to the
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`10
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`substance of that supplemental declaration. If
`you could, pull up Apple 1027.
` (Exhibit Apple 1027 marked for
`identification.)
` A Okay.
` Q In paragraph 24 of the supplemental
`declaration, Dr. Cooperstock, you first use the
`abbreviation Id. Can you explain to me what does
`Id mean?
` A I believe it's Latin for idem, and I'm not
`sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly. And it's
`intended to refer to the last citation previously
`provided.
` Q Okay. So in paragraph 24, what does your
`use of the Id refer back to?
` A I believe that the Id is referring to the
`citation to Paper 2, pages 9 and 7 -- 9 and 10,
`sorry, which is the '934 the patent IPR petition.
` Q Okay. So it's referring back to Paper 2.
` Dr. Cooperstock, is Paper 2, in your
`opinion, evidence in this trial?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`11
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` A I'm not -- not sure as a technical expert
`what the terminology of evidence requires. I know
`that it's one of the documents involved in the
`overall proceeding and it's a document that I have
`before me.
` Q In paragraph 24, you cite to Id for the
`assertion that both Haupt and Seshardri teach a
`remote network-connected server and wireless
`communication with a mobile DAP.
` Is it safe to say that you're relying on
`Paper 2 in support of that assertion?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I am pointing to Paper 2, pages 9 and 10,
`and the reference -- the references to Apple 1007
`paragraphs 24, 40 to 42, 47, 67, 68 that are
`included in the discussion of those pages on the
`petition or in the petition.
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, what is Apple 1007?
` Dr. Cooperstock, I think it's on page 6.
` A Yes. Well, I have it on page 8 of my
`original declaration.
` Q Sure.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`12
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` A I'm just verifying. Yes. It's Seshadri
`2006/0166716.
` Q All right. But in paragraph 24, Dr.
`Cooperstock, you say that both Haupt and Seshadri
`teach a remote network-connected server in
`wireless communication with a mobile DAP.
` Have you presented any authority or
`support from Haupt in support of that statement?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection. Form.
` A So in the petition, they refer to pages 9
`and 10. The multiple references to Haupt include
`columns 17, 22 to 29; column 22, 28 to column 23,
`2; column 16, 2 to 8, column 22, 11-26, Figure 1
`column 6, 16 to column 7, 31, column 1, 13 to 29,
`column 16, 15 to 19, column 19, 10 to 19.
` Q Okay. And Dr. Cooperstock, again, in the
`supplemental declaration paragraph 24, are there
`any references to Haupt?
` A Well, the -- again, the reference back to
`Paper 2, pages 9 to 10, with the associated
`citations that I've just listed for you all point
`to numerous passages in Haupt.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`13
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` Q All right. Dr. Cooperstock, let's
`transition to paragraph 29 of your supplemental
`declaration, if you don't mind. Get there myself.
` All right in paragraph 29 of your
`supplemental declaration, Dr. Cooperstock, you,
`once again, use the term Id. This is in line 4 on
`page 17.
` In this instance, what does the use of Id
`refer to?
` A So it appears that I'm referring back to
`the same passage from Haupt in paragraph 46 in
`describing the transmission of the required
`software that can also be transmitted together
`with or prior to the audio data.
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, you referred to that as
`the same passage. It's the same as what?
` A The same reference, Apple 1030 paragraph
`0046.
` Q Okay. So it's just referring back to 1030
`paragraph 0046.
` And when you use the term "the same," you
`don't indicate that 1030 0046 was something that
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`14
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`we previously discussed?
` A I --
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A Sorry, I don't understand your question.
` Q I think I understand your answer. So I'll
`leave it at that.
` But Dr. Cooperstock, can you educate me,
`what is Apple 1030?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form, to the
`prologue to that question.
` A Apple 1030 is Haupt -- and I will get you
`the number from the top, Haupt Patent Application
`Publication U.S. 2008/0194209 A1.
` Q What in paragraph 46 of Haupt supports the
`assertion that the required decompression software
`can also be transmitted together with or prior to
`the audio data?
` A Can you repeat the question, please?
` Q I'll withdraw it. Let's focus on the
`reference to Id.
` What in paragraph 46 of Apple 1030
`supports the statement, indeed for a separate
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`15
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`server to transmit the software at the same time
`as Haupt's public server OS, a POSITA would have
`needed to design without -- without any teachings
`in Haupt delivery coordination between these two
`servers to the headphones?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A Paragraph 46 describes transmission of the
`required software together with or prior to the
`audio data, and does not provide teachings as to
`how that would be accomplished by distributing
`that transmission of audio data and software from
`two different servers.
` And accordingly, there are no teachings in
`Haupt regarding this that would inform the POSITA
`as to how to coordinate those two servers.
` Q Okay. So if there's -- if paragraph 46 of
`1030 omits that, why would you cite back to it?
` A The sentence that includes or -- that
`precedes the citation, the Id citation, states
`that a POSITA would have needed to design without
`any teachings in Haupt delivery coordination
`between these two servers to the headphones. And
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`16
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`I'm pointing to the paragraph in Haupt that
`teaches the transmission of the decompression
`software or the suitable software for that
`purpose.
` And in that paragraph, there are no
`teachings that relate to how that task could be
`coordinated over two servers.
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, is Apple 1030 raised in
`ground 1 against the validity of claim 1 against
`the '934 patent?
` A As I described in paragraph 29 of my
`supplemental declaration about five lines from the
`bottom of page 16, the U.S. Publication of Haupt,
`Apple 1030, which provides an alternate English
`translation to Apple 1004, and goes on, so I --
` I'm viewing Apple 1004 and Apple 1030 as
`very similar and, in fact, there are much the same
`descriptions in both references. And it's in the
`original declaration -- sorry, what was the
`paragraph that we were just pointing me to, where
`I use the Id? I just want to go back to which
`reference that was.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`17
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` Q Paragraph 29 of your supplemental
`declaration. You pointed me to about five lines
`from the bottom of page 16.
` A Right. You were -- you were asking me
`about the Id reference that's in that same
`paragraph at the top of page 17?
` Q Yes. That's correct.
` A Yes. Okay. So when I'm referring there
`to Apple 1030 0046, I'm elaborating here on the
`similar language that is contained in the
`certified translation of 1004 and the U.S.
`publication of the same contents in order to
`further emphasize how Haupt intended for the same
`server that provides the audio files to the
`headphones also be the server that provides the
`decompression software, in that 1004 states that
`the decompression software can also be
`transmitted -- sorry, the -- the 1030 provides the
`alternate translation to 1004.
` And rather than using the certified
`translation phrase "along with," Apple 1030 uses
`the phrase "together with." That was the reason
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`18
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`for providing the pointer or the citation in my
`supplemental to 1030 in response to Koss'
`arguments as to what I state at the beginning of
`paragraph 28, that Patent Owner argues that
`Petitioner failed to show that the
`network-connected server to which the headphone
`assembly initiates transmission with, the request
`also transmits the firmware upgrades to the
`headphone assembly.
` Q So Dr. Cooperstock, is Apple 1004
`inaccurate?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I haven't made any statements to suggest
`that it is inaccurate; rather, I'm demonstrating
`by the similar language of the U.S. application
`in -- of the same intellectual property that the
`wording of "along with" as was provided in Apple
`1004 as I stated, I would have read that -- a
`POSITA would have read that as meaning that the
`audio files and the decompression software were
`transmitted from the same server.
` If there were any note about that, one
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`19
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`could turn to the equivalent U.S. application the
`Apple 1030 application that uses the wording
`transmitted "together with."
` Q Okay. And again, is Apple 1030 raised in
`the grounds of invalidity, alleged invalidity, of
`claim 1?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A In my original declaration, I've cited to
`Apple 1004, which is the same contents, the same
`invention that's described in Apple 1030. One is
`a foreign patent, patent or application, I can't
`recall; and Apple 1030 is the U.S. application.
` Q And you use 1030, I believe you just said,
`in case there was any doubt that Apple 1004
`teaches the required decompression software can
`also be transmitted together with or prior to
`audio data.
` Is there doubt that Apple 1004 teaches the
`required decompression software can also be
`transmitted together with or prior to the audio
`data?
` A The doubt is what is expressed by Koss,
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`20
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`that is Patent Owner has argued that Petitioner
`failed to show that the network-connected server
`to which the headphone assembly initiates
`transmission of the request also transmits the
`firmware upgrades to the headphone assembly.
` And when I deal with this contention by
`Patent Owner where Patent Owner argues that in
`paragraph 29 of my supplemental declaration. In
`response, Patent Owner argues that Haupt merely
`teaches that software can be transmitted along
`with the audio files, which can mean at the same
`time and does not necessarily mean from the same
`source, e.g., not necessarily from Haupt server OS
`as Petitioner asserts.
` And I go on to explain why that doesn't
`make sense. And I further, to help clarify to
`Patent Owner why that argument doesn't make any
`sense, I point to the alternate English
`translation to Apple 1004 which is the U.S.
`application 1030, in which the same invention is
`described but now with a patent filed in the U.S.
`with the words transmitted "together with."
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`21
`
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, why -- why do you raise
`1004 in the petition, a translation of a German
`reference in lieu of 1030, the U.S. publication?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I see from my records that at the time
`that I prepared the original declaration, I had
`before me the international or the non U.S. -- the
`PCT/EP2005/011228, that was a document that
`I -- the reference that I had available at the
`time.
` Q And who made that reference available to
`you?
` A That -- I believe it was Fish &
`Richardson.
` Q Okay. But it sounds as if Apple 1030
`clarifies and better communicates your point over
`Apple 1004; is that correct?
` A I -- I don't think it clarifies or better
`communicates that -- as I stated at the time of my
`original declaration --
` Q Then why would you use it --
` A Just a minute, I've not finished my
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`22
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`answer.
` Q Sorry.
` A Yes. In my original declaration, I've
`quoted that very same excerpt from Haupt, Apple
`1004, in multiple instances, in several occasions
`emphasized with an underline to note that I had no
`problem understanding what is meant by, this
`necessary software can also be transferred along
`with or prior to the audio data.
` It seemed perfectly clear to me and would
`have been perfectly clear to a POSITA. But Patent
`Owner has argued that no, it's not clear. And I'm
`responding to that by saying, yes, it is clear,
`but it's -- there's uncertainty on Patent Owner's
`part as to the meaning of "along with."
` We can look at the same patent or the same
`application in the U.S. in which we have something
`written, presumably directly in English, rather
`than being a certified translation and now using
`the wording "together with."
` Q So what difference in phraseology between
`Apple 1030 and Apple 1004 led you to believe that
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`23
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`relying on 1030 in the supplemental declaration
`better illustrated your point?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I really would have to turn to the final
`sentence on page 16 of my supplemental that, in
`referring to the language of "together with" as
`opposed to "along with," where I state that, this
`further substantiates my assertion that the same
`server that provides audio files to the headphones
`also provides the decompression software.
` So it's simply further substantiation that
`I made at the time of my original declaration.
` Q Okay. Turning to paragraph 48 of your
`supplemental declaration, you, once again, used
`the term Id, Dr. Cooperstock.
` What is that referring to?
` A So remind me, can you repeat your
`question, please?
` Q Yes. So I am asking about the use of Id
`in paragraph 48 of the supplemental declaration,
`two lines from the bottom of page 27.
` And what is that referring to, that use of
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`24
`
`Id?
` A So it appears that Id is referring to the
`previous citation from the end of paragraph 47
`Apple 1005, which is Hankey column 26 lines 52 to
`60, in which Hankey describes the battery being
`charging. And while it's charging, the Core
`Circuitry 1610 can, for example, handle auxiliary
`processes, e.g., downloading firmware updates via
`a wired interface and installing the updates.
` Q Okay. So again, at that -- after that use
`of Id on the second-to-last line of page 27, you
`indicate that Hankey cites Apple 1029.
` What is Apple 1029?
` A That is Marolia, and I believe that
`there's a typo there since Hankey is not actually
`citing to Apple 1029, but rather I am referring to
`Apple 1029.
` Q Okay. So you -- can you -- you
`accidentally wrote the word "citing"?
` A I believe so. But I can't recall if that
`may have been from some other reference that I was
`looking at initially and -- where there was a
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`25
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`citation from that other reference to Marolia.
`But certainly, in the context of Hankey, column
`26, 52 to 60, there is no citation there to
`Marolia.
` Q Understood. You characterize that as a
`typographical error. Is that a typographical
`error?
` A As I said, it could be a typographical
`error or it could be written in association with
`another reference that was citing Marolia. I
`can't recall.
` Q Okay. Are you relying on Hankey or
`Marolia in support of the assertion that one
`technique that would have been apparent to a
`POSITA is to condition firmware upgrades based on
`charge level of the headphone?
` A Well, it's really both, in that Hankey
`describes at a high level the possibility while
`the battery is charging having the core circuitry
`handle auxiliary processes, for example,
`downloading firmware updates via the wired
`interface and installing the updates.
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`26
`
` And in the relevant sessions of Marolia to
`which I cited, Marolia is providing further
`details of that very functionality.
` Q And can you point to me exactly where
`Hankey discloses that? Can you read to me from
`column 26, lines 52 through 60?
` A "While BAT," which I take to be the
`battery -- unfortunately, I can't -- I don't have
`a searchable version here of Hankey to see where
`it's defined but we're talking about Battery 655
`charging. I'm assuming that's that battery,
`"...core circuitry 1610 can perform various other
`functions regardless of whether VBAT has met or
`exceeded the predetermined voltage level. For
`example, core circuitry 1610 can run boot-up
`processes, communicate over wired interfaces, and
`run user interfaces. In that manner, core
`circuitry 1610 can, for example, handle auxiliary
`processes, (e.g., downloading firmware updates via
`a wired interface and installing the updates)
`before processor 1605 has full functionality."
` Q Where -- so I guess I'm -- where does it
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
`
`27
`
`use the word "condition"? Where does that excerpt
`from Hankey use the word "condition"?
` A Well, I didn't state that Hankey uses the
`term "condition". I didn't put that in quotation.
` But what I'm describing just above that
`section or what Hankey, I should say, describes
`just above that section that I referenced is, for
`example, when radio circuitry 1615 is powered,
`core circuitry 1610 can begin sending
`communications data to radio circuitry 1615. In
`this manner, processor 1605 can operate with full
`functionality before BAT 1655 is fully charged.
` So that's the context. That's the
`condition where the battery is not fully charged.
`And then Hankey goes on to talk about what can be
`done in that condition, in that scenario.
` Well, for example, even when the battery
`is not fully charged, we can download firmware
`updates via a wired interface and install the
`updates. And then we turn to Marolia and we get
`more details about that operation.
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, are you -- I mean, you're
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`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`28
`
`citing -- that's not in this section of Hankey
`that you're citing though, correct? That's not in
`lines 52 to 60?
` A That's the context of that particular
`passage at 52 to 60 that is dealing with the
`firmware updates.
` Q But let's focus on 52 to 60 which you use
`in support of the assertion that one technique
`that would have been apparent to a POSITA is to
`condition the firmware upgrades based on the
`charge level of a headphone's rechargeable
`battery.
` Going back to Hankey, it says, BAT --
`"While BAT is charging, core circuitry can perform
`various other functions, regardless of whether
`VBAT has met or exceeded the predetermined voltage
`level."
` So doesn't that contradict your assertion
`that 52 and 60 teach to condition the firmware
`upgrades based on the charge level of a
`headphone's rechargeable battery given, that 52 to
`60 expressly state regardless of whether or not
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`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`29
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`VBAT has met or exceeded the predetermined voltage
`level?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I don't think there's any contradiction
`whatsoever there. Hankey is teaching that while
`the battery is charging -- and I did verify, it
`is, in fact, a battery that's described in
`column -- column 25, lines 45 to 46. In Figure
`16, an internal battery is represented by BAT
`1655.
` So Hankey is teaching that while that
`battery is charging, core circuitry can perform
`various other functions, regardless of whether
`VBAT, the voltage of that battery, has met or
`exceeded the predetermined voltage level.
` So you don't -- Hankey is saying, you
`don't have to wait until that battery reaches some
`predetermined voltage level that would otherwise
`be necessary for whatever operations the designer
`may be considering. Even before you get there,
`Hankey is saying, you can perform these other
`operations, for example, downloading firmware
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`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`30
`
`updates and installing them. There's no
`contradiction.
` Q And would a POSITA be encouraged to
`perform a firmware update knowing that battery has
`not achieved a predetermined voltage level to
`support that firmware update?
` A Sorry, would a POSITA --
` Q Would a POSITA reading the expressed
`disclosure from the sections of Hankey that you
`cite in your supplemental declaration be
`encouraged to perform or initiate a firmware
`update knowing that the battery has not achieved a
`predetermined voltage level necessary to support
`that entire firmware update?
` A Well, I think that's -- that's the point
`that Hankey is making. And a POSITA reading
`Hankey would understand that Hankey is teaching
`that this is something that is quite feasible to
`perform. You don't have to wait until your
`battery reaches some predetermined voltage level
`in order to initiate and perform your firmware
`upgrade. You can do so while the battery is
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D. (IPR2021-00592)
`Conducted on April 22, 2022
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`31
`
`charging.
` Q But Dr. Cooperstock, isn't that the
`opposite of conditioning a firmware update on a
`battery level, disregarding the battery level?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection; form.
` A I should perhaps have extended
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