Deposition of:
`Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes
`
`December 3, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`Cradlepoint, Inc Et Al Vs. Sisvel SPA
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-462-2233 | calendar-de@veritext.com |
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 1 of 115
`
`

`

`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________________________
`
` CRADLEPOINT, INC., DELL INC., HONEYWELL
` INTERNATIONAL, INC., SIERRA WIRELESS, INC., TCL
` COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGY HOLDINGS LIMITED, TCT
`MOBILE INTERNATIONAL LIMITED, TCT MOBILE, INC., TCT
` MOBILE (US) INC., TCT MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS INC.,
` THALES DIS AIS DEUTSCHLAND GMBH,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SISVEL S.P.A.,
` Patent Owner.
`
` - - -
`
` December 3, 2021
`
` - - -
`
` Videotaped deposition of DR. APOSTOLO
` K. KAKAES, taken pursuant to Notice, held
` via Zoom, beginning at approximately 12:08
` p.m., before Mary Hammond, a Registered
` Professional Reporter and Notary Public in
` the state of Pennsylvania.
` - - -
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 2 of 115
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`

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`1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S
`2 DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
` BY: NEIL BENCHELL, ESQUIRE
`3 1526 Gilpin Avenue
` Wilmington, Delaware 19806
`4 (302) 449-9010
` nbenchell@devlinlawfirm.com
`5 Attorney for Patent Owner
`6
`
` DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
`7 BY: ANDREW DeMARCO, ESQUIRE
` 1526 Gilpin Avenue
`8 Wilmington, Delaware 19806
` (302) 449-9010
`9 ademarco@devlinlawfirm.com
` Attorney for Patent Owner
`
`10
`11 PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: KOURTNEY MERRILL, ESQUIRE
`12 1900 16th Street
` Suite 1400
`13 Denver, Colorado 80202
` (303) 291-2300
`14 kmerrill@perkinscoie.com
` Attorney for Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless
`
`15
`16 PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: RODERICK O'DORISIO, ESQUIRE
`17 1900 16th Street
` Suite 1400
`18 Denver, Colorado 80202
` (303) 291-2300
`19 rodorisio@perkinscoie.com
` Attorney for Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless
`
`20
`21 K&L GATES LLP
` BY: ERIK HALVERSON, ESQUIRE
`22 70 West Madison Street
` Suite 3100
`23 Chicago, Illinois 60602
` (312) 807-4240
`24 erik.halverson@klgates.com
` Attorney Honeywell International, Inc.
`
`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`1 - - -
`2 I-N-D-E-X
`3 - - -
`4 WITNESS:
`5 DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`6
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` PAGE
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`7
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`8
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`9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
`
` BY MR. BENCHELL 8
`
` BY MS. MERRILL --
`
` BY MR. GULLIVER --
`
` BY MR. O'DORISIO --
`
` BY MR. BARON --
`
` BY MR. DeMARCO --
`
` BY MR. HALVERSON --
`
`14
`15
`16 - - -
`17 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
`18 - - -
`19 NAME DESCRIPTION PAGE
`20 (Whereupon, there were no exhibits
`21 marked at this time.)
`22
`23
`24
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`Page 3
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`Page 5
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`1 - - -
`2 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
`3 - - -
`4 (By agreement of counsel, the
`5 reading, signing, sealing, certification
`6 and filing are waived, and all objections
`7 as to the form of the question, are
`8 reserved until the time of trial.)
`9 - - -
`10 THE COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
`11 participating in this deposition
`12 acknowledge that I am not physically
`13 present in the deposition room, and that I
`14 will be reporting this deposition
`15 remotely.
`16 They further acknowledge that, in
`17 lieu of an oath administered in person, I
`18 will administer the oath remotely.
`19 The parties further agree that if the
`20 witness is testifying from a state where I
`21 am not a Notary, that the witness may be
`22 sworn in by an out-of-state Notary.
`23 If any party has an objection to this
`24 manner of reporting, please state it now.
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S - (Continued)
`2 ADDYHART PC
` BY: GREGORY B. GULLIVER, ESQUIRE
`3 10 Glenlake Parkway
` Suite 130
`4 Atlanta, Georgia 30328
` (312) 834-7701
`5 gbgulliver@addyhart.com
` Attorney for Thales DIS AIS Deutschland GmbH
`
`6 7
`
` HOLLAND & KNIGHT LLP
` BY: JACOB K. BARON, ESQUIRE
`8 10 St. James Avenue
` 11th Floor
`9 Boston, Massechesetts 02116
` (617) 523-2700
`10 jacob.baron@hklaw.com
` Attorney for Cradlepoint, Inc.
`
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15 Also Present: Robert Leventhal, Videographer
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 3 of 115
`
`

`

`Page 6
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`Page 8
`
`1 Hearing none, we can proceed.
`2 - - -
`3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We
`4 are going on the record at 12:03 p.m., on
`5 December 3rd, 2021.
`6 Please note that the microphones are
`7 sensitive, may pick up whispering, private
`8 conversations, and cellular interference.
`9 Please turn off all cellphones, or place
`10 them away from the microphone, as they can
`11 interfere with the deposition audio.
`12 Audio and video recording will
`13 continue to take place, unless all parties
`14 agree to go off the record.
`15 This is Media Unit Number 1 of the
`16 video-recorded deposition of Dr. Apostolos
`17 Kakaes, taken in the matter of
`18 Cradlepoint, Inc., et al versus Sisvel
`19 S.P.A., which is filed in the United
`20 States Patent and Trademark Office before
`21 Patent and Appeal Board, Docket Numbers
`22 IPR2021-00580 and IPR2021-00584. This is
`23 a Zoom deposition.
`24 My name is Robert Leventhal from the
`
`1 for the second deposition that will take
`2 place later today.
`3 The parties agreed that this shared
`4 portion of the transcript will extend only
`5 to introductory questions directed to
`6 Dr. Kakaes' education and experience and
`7 not any issues specific to this IPR
`8 proceeding, which is the 580 IPR
`9 proceeding or the second IPR proceeding,
`10 which is the 584 IPR.
`11 The parties will state on the record
`12 when that portion of the transcript is
`13 complete for a clear record, and when
`14 Patent Owner is ready to move on to any
`15 issues specific to this first proceeding.
`16 MR. BENCHELL: I will just state for
`17 the record, I don't know that -- that the
`18 parties necessarily came to agreement over
`19 anything. I don't think there was any --
`20 any dispute to begin with. But be that as
`21 it may, we'll -- we'll proceed
`22 accordingly.
`23 - - -
`24 DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`Page 7
`1 firm, Veritex. I'm the videographer. The
`2 court reporter is Mary Hammond from
`3 Veritext. I am not authorized to
`4 administer an oath. I am not related to
`5 any party in this action, nor am I
`6 financially interested in the outcome.
`7 Counsel, please announce their
`8 appearances and affiliations for the
`9 record.
`10 MR. BENCHELL: Yes. On behalf of
`11 Patent Owners, Neil Benchell with the
`12 Devlin Law Firm.
`13 MS. MERRILL: Good morning. My name
`14 is Kourtney Merrill with Perkins Coie for
`15 Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless. With me on
`16 the line today is my colleague, Roderick
`17 O'Dorisio, and counsel for other
`18 Petitioners.
`19 Petitioners have a short introductory
`20 statement, which is that Petitioners and
`21 Patent Owner reached agreement this
`22 morning on a procedure for copying the
`23 introductory section of this first
`24 deposition transcript into the transcript
`
`Page 9
`
`1 - - -
`2 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`3 Q. Dr. Kakaes --
`4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Wait. We have --
`5 we have to swear in the witness.
`6 MR. BENCHELL: Oh, I'm sorry.
`7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yeah. Any
`8 other -- any other appearances that have
`9 to be announced?
`10 (No response.)
`11 Okay. Can the court reporter please
`12 swear in the witness.
`13 - - -
`14 DR. APOSTOLO K. KAKAES, after having
`15 been first duly sworn, was examined and
`16 testified as follows:
`17 - - -
`18 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`19 Q. Good morning, Dr. Kakaes.
`20 Can you just state your name and -- and
`21 address for the record?
`22 A. I'm sorry?
`23 Q. Can you state your name and address for
`24 the record?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 4 of 115
`
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`Page 10
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`Page 12
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`1 A. Sure. My name is Apostolos, middle
`2 initial K, last name Kakaes, and I reside at 908
`3 Park Street Southeast, in Vienna, Virginia 22180.
`4 Q. And is that where -- are you currently in
`5 Vienna, Virginia, right now?
`6 A. No, I am not.
`7 Q. And where are you, right now, sir?
`8 A. I am in Seattle, Washington.
`9 Q. Okay.
`10 And do you have any documents in front of
`11 you aside from what was sent to you?
`12 A. I don't have any documents in front of me.
`13 I -- there is a box that arrived, which is down
`14 here, and I was told consist of the prior
`15 depositions for the documents that was -- you asked
`16 me to do so.
`17 Q. Okay.
`18 Are you in communications with anybody
`19 aside from the people participating in this
`20 deposition
`21 A. You mean, today, as we speak, or?
`22 Q. During the deposition, right now, right
`23 this minute.
`24 A. No. No. No. Just -- just whoever is on
`
`Page 11
`
`1 this call.
`2 Q. You don't have a -- a cell phone open,
`3 getting text messages from anybody, do you?
`4 A. Correct. I do not.
`5 Q. You don't have another screen open,
`6 getting emails from other people, do you?
`7 A. Correct. I do not.
`8 Q. And there's nobody sitting in room that we
`9 can't see on the video; is that correct?
`10 A. Correct. There is no one here.
`11 Q. All right.
`12 Dr. Kakaes, we've been through this a few
`13 times, but apparently we're going to have to do this
`14 again. So I just want to remind you of some of the
`15 -- the -- the kind of the ground rules we're going
`16 to try to follow today.
`17 As -- as you'll recall, there's a number
`18 of people, and it was discussed beforehand. There's
`19 a number on people on this call. The -- the -- the
`20 two most important people are our videographer,
`21 Robert Leventhal, and our court reporter, Mary
`22 Hammond.
`23 In particular, Ms. Hammond is taking down
`24 every word that you or I or Ms. Merrill says during
`
`1 the deposition; you understand that, right?
`2 A. Yes, I do.
`3 Q. And you understand that it's important for
`4 you to speak verbally, as opposed to use head nods
`5 or other nonverbal communication during this
`6 deposition, correct?
`7 A. Yes.
`8 Q. Okay.
`9 I'm going to ask that if -- you know,
`10 also, since this is a video deposition, you
`11 understand that while we are on the record, you
`12 shouldn't be muting your microphone in any way,
`13 correct?
`14 A. Yes, I do.
`15 Q. Okay.
`16 You also -- well, let me say it this way.
`17 Because of the technology and whatnot -- and I think
`18 we've already addressed or experienced this already
`19 today -- to the extent that you don't hear me, I'm
`20 going to ask you to ask me to repeat the question.
`21 We want to make sure that you're answering
`22 the question that I'm asking you; you understand
`23 that, right?
`24 A. Yes. If I cannot hear you well, or I
`
`Page 13
`1 didn't quite understand something, I will ask you to
`2 repeat it.
`3 Q. Okay.
`4 And -- and I am a -- an attorney. I am
`5 not a -- an expert in cellular technology. So if
`6 there's a question I ask that doesn't make sense to
`7 you, would you also let me know that you don't
`8 understand the question and -- and ask me to -- to
`9 repeat it or -- or rephrase it?
`10 A. Yes. If I don't have an understanding of
`11 the question, I will ask you to do so.
`12 Q. Okay.
`13 Now, Ms. Merrill has the opportunity to
`14 object to the questions.
`15 However, unless she explicitly tells you
`16 or instructs you not to answer the question, you
`17 understand you're going to have to answer my
`18 questions even if she's objecting to that, correct.
`19 A. Yes, I do.
`20 Q. And, as we've talked about in the past,
`21 this is -- I don't mean this to be a marathon. I
`22 try to take a break about every hour or so.
`23 To the extent that you need to take a
`24 break, either to -- for whatever reason, will you
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 5 of 115
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`

`

`Page 14
`1 let me know that and we'll -- presuming there's no
`2 questions that are pending or series of questions
`3 we're in the middle of, I will try to accommodate
`4 that; do you understand that?
`5 A. Yes. Thank you.
`6 Q. Okay.
`7 And, finally, this is not a memory test.
`8 This is -- this is simply trying to get the
`9 information from you that -- to explain your
`10 opinions.
`11 And so to the extent that you remember
`12 something about a question you had answered
`13 previously, or if there was a -- an issue that you
`14 wanted to re-raise, if you'll let me know that, I
`15 will be more than happy to get that on the record;
`16 you do you understand that, right, too?
`17 A. I'm -- I'm not sure what you're saying.
`18 Q. Well, if you want to add to an answer, you
`19 want to reword, you know, restate an answer that you
`20 had said previously, you just need to let me know
`21 and we'll make sure you get that on the record --
`22 A. Oh, okay.
`23 Q. -- you understand that, right?
`24 A. Understood, yes. Thank you. Mm-humm.
`
`Page 15
`
`1 Q. Okay.
`2 And, one other thing, you also understand
`3 that any discussions you have with your attorneys,
`4 from this point forward until the end of the
`5 deposition, I'm allowed to ask you about, correct?
`6 A. Yes, I do.
`7 Q. Okay.
`8 Why don't you open up your -- that box
`9 that we sent you, and pull out the -- the
`10 declaration you filed in IPR021584.
`11 A. I want to move off camera to pick up the
`12 box.
`13 Q. That's fine.
`14 A. (Witness is now opening the box.)
`15 I'm sorry. Which one did you say?
`16 Q. The declaration. It's IPR2021-00584.
`17 A. There are two binders that have that front
`18 page.
`19 Q. Okay.
`20 A. I think I marked them identical, but I
`21 haven't checked.
`22 Q. Well, let's check then.
`23 A. (Witness complied.)
`24 Judging from the tabs that each one has,
`
`Page 16
`
`1 it looks like they are identical.
`2 Q. Okay.
`3 They -- we may have sent you multiple
`4 binders, two binders, presuming that there might be
`5 somebody there. So why don't you -- if you'll --
`6 we're just -- we're just concerned about the 584
`7 declaration right now.
`8 So do you have that in front of you?
`9 A. Yeah. Let me just put the others away.
`10 Yes, I do.
`11 Q. And just to authenticate this, this is --
`12 this is your declaration concerning the Patent
`13 Number 7551625; is that correct?
`14 A. I'm trying to find the correct one.
`15 Yes. I found the declaration on the top
`16 1003.
`17 Q. And the first page says, "Declaration of
`18 Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes in Support of Petition for
`19 Inter-parte Review of US Patent Number 7551625"; is
`20 that right?
`21 A. Correct.
`22 Q. And at the bottom it says, "Cradlepoint,
`23 Inc., et al EX 1003"; is that correct?
`24 A. That's correct as well.
`
`Page 17
`1 MR. BENCHELL: So this is -- just for
`2 the record, this is Exhibit-1003 from the
`3 '584IPR.
`4 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`5 Q. So, if you'll go to the last page, sir,
`6 Page 105, is that your signature?
`7 A. Yes, it is.
`8 Q. And did you write this declaration, sir?
`9 A. Yes, I did.
`10 Q. You wrote every word?
`11 A. I stand by every word in it that express
`12 my opinions.
`13 Q. I appreciate that, but that wasn't my
`14 question.
`15 Did you write every word, sir?
`16 A. I got feedback from the attorneys. They
`17 suggested some changes, some improvements, some
`18 better wording, and to the extent that I agreed with
`19 those and to the extent that they expressed my
`20 opinions correctly, I accepted those suggested
`21 changes.
`22 Q. So you wrote the first draft and sent it
`23 to your attorneys and they provided recommended
`24 changes; is that correct?
`
`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 6 of 115
`
`

`

`Page 18
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`Page 20
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`1 A. Excuse me. It -- it was a drafting
`2 process, you know. It consisted of me providing
`3 them information, the attorneys asking me to include
`4 certain sections that I may not have felt or
`5 included my own, and came up with a draft that I
`6 sent to the attorneys and they sent it back with
`7 suggested changes, as I said earlier.
`8 Q. Okay.
`9 But -- but you were the one who drafted
`10 the first -- the first draft of this document --
`11 declaration, correct?
`12 A. There may have been something you might
`13 call a first draft, a skeleton outline of topics
`14 that I need to address that I may have gotten from
`15 attorneys.
`16 So it depends on how you define the first
`17 draft, if the answer is yes or the answer is maybe
`18 no, but they provided some input into making sure
`19 that I addressed all of the sections or topics that
`20 they felt needed to be addressed.
`21 Q. But irrespective of who wrote it, you --
`22 you agree with everything in this declaration,
`23 correct?
`24 A. Yes.
`
`Page 19
`1 Q. Are there any changes you'd like to make
`2 to this declaration?
`3 A. I think that, as I was looking at this, I
`4 did find basically a software-generated problem, I
`5 guess, at the very end, which I did not catch. I
`6 need to find it. I don't remember the page number.
`7 But it was a link -- a link problem related to a
`8 section.
`9 And so there's a typo. I'll call it a
`10 typo, for lack of a better word, some word which I
`11 don't remember exactly where it is, but other than
`12 that I did not find any other errors.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 So there's one typo that you're aware of,
`15 but you're not 100-percent sure where that is; is
`16 that correct?
`17 A. Yes. And I call it a typo because that's
`18 the closest approximation to it.
`19 Q. Okay. And that's fine.
`20 You'll -- will you let us know if we -- we
`21 come upon that typo --
`22 A. Sure.
`23 Q. -- during today's deposition?
`24 A. Yes, absolutely.
`
`1 Q. Okay.
`2 What do you consider your area of
`3 expertise with regard to this declaration?
`4 MS. MERRILL: Neil, I'm going to go
`5 ahead and say that that appears to be a
`6 question specific to this IPR, not his
`7 general background questions on education
`8 and experience.
`9 MR. BENCHELL: All right. Let me
`10 reword the question.
`11 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`12 Q. Generally, sir, what do you consider your
`13 area of expertise?
`14 A. My area of expertise is communication
`15 engineering, and most of the work I've done in the
`16 recent past is in the area of wireless
`17 communications.
`18 Q. Okay.
`19 And just so we're -- we're clear, this is
`20 not the first declaration that you have provided in
`21 the IPRs concerning Sisvel and the petitioners here,
`22 correct?
`23 A. This is not the first declaration I've
`24 provided. I'm not sure that the set of petitioners
`
`Page 21
`
`1 is the same in the previous declarations --
`2 Q. Okay.
`3 A. -- as in this case. So -- so, generally
`4 speaking, no, it's not the first declaration, but
`5 I'm not sure of the specifics -- if those petitions
`6 are the same.
`7 Q. In fact, this isn't even the first time
`8 you've been an expert, correct?
`9 A. I have been an expert for a long time. So
`10 I don't know if this is the first or second time.
`11 Q. Yeah. Let me be more specific. That --
`12 that wasn't -- that wasn't very clear.
`13 Prior to these -- these set of IPRs with
`14 Sisvel, you were -- you've provided expert
`15 declarations in other cases, right?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. Do you -- do you know how -- approximately
`18 how many?
`19 A. I've served as an expert witnesses in --
`20 in -- in many cases. I -- I don't know how many.
`21 Q. Are we talking about a million?
`22 A. A million cases?
`23 Q. Yeah.
`24 A. No.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 7 of 115
`
`

`

`Page 22
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`Page 24
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`1 Q. Hundred-thousand cases?
`2 A. No.
`3 Q. Ten-thousand cases?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. A thousand cases?
`6 A. No.
`7 Q. A hundred cases?
`8 A. I don't think so.
`9 Q. Fifty cases?
`10 A. I'm sorry?
`11 Q. Fifty cases?
`12 A. I don't know whether that number would be
`13 50, depending on how you count or not, so -- so I'm
`14 not sure.
`15 Q. So -- but it could be somewhere around 50,
`16 correct?
`17 A. Again, I don't have a count -- for
`18 example, there have been cases that -- it was an IPR
`19 on it, and there is a district case and there was an
`20 IPC case, or some combination thereof, and I'm not
`21 sure if you count that as one case or multiple
`22 cases. So, again, depending on how you count, it --
`23 it probably could be 50. I'm not sure.
`24 Q. Okay.
`
`1 Wouldn't you be aware if you were the
`2 subject of a -- a motion to disqualify?
`3 A. That's what I had thought for many years,
`4 but then some attorneys informed me that it is
`5 possible that there had been motions like that and I
`6 didn't know about it.
`7 Q. Any of the attorneys that are -- you're
`8 working with today for these IPRs?
`9 A. No. That was several years ago.
`10 Q. Do you recall when the first -- your first
`11 expert declaration was -- was used, either a -- a
`12 litigation or an IPR?
`13 MS. MERRILL: Objection. Form.
`14 THE WITNESS: I mean, if you're -- if
`15 you're asking me when did I provide an
`16 expert report in -- in the -- in the case,
`17 is that what you're asking?
`18 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`19 Q. Right. I'm -- I'm looking to see when you
`20 first started doing expert declarations for
`21 litigation or IPRs?
`22 A. I think the first one was probably in the
`23 2006/2007 timeframe, somewhere around there.
`24 Q. Do you recall what -- what that was for?
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`Page 23
`
`1 More than ten, certainly?
`2 A. Yes.
`3 Q. Okay.
`4 Have you ever been disqualified as an
`5 expert?
`6 A. No, I have not.
`7 Q. Have you ever been the subject of a motion
`8 to disqualify you?
`9 A. There was a motion to disqualify part of
`10 my testimony, but that portion was overruled and I
`11 went on and testified.
`12 Q. So only once you've been the subject of a
`13 motion to disqualify, is that what you're saying?
`14 A. That I know of. There may have been a
`15 second time. I just can't remember. It was along
`16 the similar lines where there was a marketing with
`17 the lawyers, and the Court allowed me to testify,
`18 but I'm not sure if that was a motion to disqualify
`19 or -- or some other motion.
`20 So, to my knowledge, that was the only
`21 time for sure. There may have been another time,
`22 and there may have been others that I'm not aware
`23 of.
`24 Q. Okay.
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`Page 25
`1 A. Yes, and I'm interpreting your question --
`2 the litigation to include the International Trade
`3 Commission, so there was a case at the ITC.
`4 Okay. And what was the technology?
`5 A. Wireless communications.
`6 Q. And, Doctor, I can guarantee you any of us
`7 who have done ITC litigation, that's -- that's hard
`8 core litigation, so I would absolutely include
`9 those.
`10 Okay.
`11 Well, let's -- let's turn to Page 2 of the
`12 584 declaration.
`13 A. (Witness complied.)
`14 Q. And, this, on the top of the page says,
`15 "Qualifications and Experience"; do you see that?
`16 A. Yes, I do.
`17 Q. Paragraph 6 says you have almost 40 years
`18 of experience in electrical engineering and computer
`19 science and in fixed and mobile communication
`20 networks; do you see that?
`21 A. Yes, I do.
`22 Q. What's a fixed -- fixed communication
`23 network?
`24 A. It a fixed as in traditional telephony.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
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`1 That's not mobile communications.
`2 Q. Like landlines, is that what you're
`3 saying, like a landline?
`4 A. It -- it includes that -- that. Right.
`5 Q. Yeah.
`6 A. And all the infrastructures that's hiding
`7 behind that. The ordinary users of landlines are
`8 not aware of its existence.
`9 Q. Have you ever designed a fixed
`10 communications network?
`11 A. Not one human being designs an entire
`12 network.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 So that would mean that you've never
`15 designed a fixed communications network; is that
`16 correct?
`17 A. Well, once again, a fixed communications
`18 network is designed by large teams. So I have been
`19 a member of such teams but single-handedly, no, I
`20 have not, neither has anybody else in the world.
`21 Q. Have -- have you ever designed a mobile
`22 communications network?
`23 A. The answer is along those same lines.
`24 Those are -- designing such networks takes large
`
`1 that are used within those Play Stations'
`2 transmitters and receivers to have to identify
`3 issues that exist once the network is up and
`4 running, how to identify potential solutions to
`5 those issues.
`6 The problem comes with different
`7 approaches to solving the problem that has been
`8 properly diagnosed, assuming it has been properly
`9 diagnosed, and, if not, digging deeper into the
`10 diagnosis of how that network's behaving, what the
`11 issues are, how to grow the network. And I think
`12 that's just a number of examples.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 Have you ever been involved with designing
`15 a -- a handheld device, a -- a cellular phone?
`16 A. Designing a handheld device, is that what
`17 you said?
`18 Q. That is what I said.
`19 A. Yeah. No, I have not been involved in
`20 designing the handset, but I have been involved in
`21 its operation as it interacts and communicates with
`22 the network.
`23 Q. And when you say "the network," you're
`24 talking about communicating with the bay station,
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`Page 27
`1 teams, and I have not single-handedly designed such
`2 networks, but I have participated in doing my
`3 consulting, both in assisting teams in the design
`4 process, as well as training engineers to actually
`5 design the mobile communication networks literally
`6 around the world.
`7 Q. Well, I -- I appreciate that you've done
`8 training. I'm not asking about any training you've
`9 conducted. I'm simply asking about your experience
`10 in designing mobile communications networks.
`11 And I think you just testified that you
`12 had been on teams that had done that; was that
`13 correct?
`14 A. I -- I participated in teams whose job was
`15 to design mobile communications networks.
`16 Q. And what did you do as part of a team in
`17 designing a mobile communications network?
`18 A. It -- it varied across different
`19 assignments and -- and across different cases. So I
`20 was involved in the -- most aspects of designing the
`21 mobile communications network, from a simple to
`22 understand for lay people as a question of how to
`23 select and where to place Play Stations and
`24 corresponding antennas to how to tune the parameters
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`Page 29
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`1 correct?
`2 A. Communicating with the bay station and
`3 beyond.
`4 Q. Right. So your -- your focus in -- in the
`5 design of mobile networks has always been from the
`6 network side not the mobile device side, correct?
`7 A. No.
`8 Q. Well, you just told me -- well, why don't
`9 you tell me what you've done specifically with
`10 regard to mobile devices.
`11 A. Mobile devices are intended to be used to
`12 communicate with a network. As a result -- for a
`13 lack of a better word, I'm going to say both the
`14 network and the mobile device have to speak the same
`15 language; and, therefore, the parameters and the
`16 characteristics of how the mobile device operates is
`17 critical in executing the two-way communication
`18 between the device on the one hand and the network
`19 on the other hand.
`20 Q. Okay.
`21 But, again, you've never been involved
`22 with designing or -- or -- or working on mobile
`23 devices so that they can communicate with bay
`24 stations.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`8 (Pages 26 - 29)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1033
`Cradlepoint v. 3G Licensing, IPR2021-00584
`Page 9 of 115
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`Page 32
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`1 You've always been working on the bay
`2 station side, correct?
`3 A. Like I said, no, that's not correct.
`4 Q. Oh. So -- so you have been involved with
`5 designing mobile devices, then, is that what you're
`6 saying?
`7 A. Through my work, I have been involved with
`8 the -- the teams that are responsible for -- the job
`9 was to build these mobile devices, cell phones
`10 sometimes we call them, Smart phones sometimes we
`11 call them. And, as such, I had an input into the --
`12 both the understanding and the operation of the
`13 mobile device; whereas, the design of the device
`14 itself of how the chips are organized, how the
`15 battery is built, et cetera, was not part of my
`16 design work, but how the mobile device communicates
`17 with the network was.
`18 Q. So which teams that build mobile devices
`19 have you worked with?
`20 A. I've consulted way back for a number of
`21 companies that were in the business of mobile
`22 devices, but I'm not sure how much of that I can
`23 actually get into without violating NDA agreements.
`24 So I think I would -- I would rather shy away from
`
`Page 31
`1 that and say I've consulted for some companies.
`2 Q. But you're not -- you're not willi